S03.E02: Sara

Nanrad · October 16, 2014

3. I loved SA and EBR in the foundry (even though MG selling that as a sequel to their hallway talk is a huge yet unsurprising stretch), and especially SA at the end when he told Diggle that he didn't want to die down there. I feel like it was too early to have that revelation this season, but let's see where it goes. I think this sets up Felicity's trip to CC nicely though.

I agree, it was way to early for him to make a comment like that. It would've been better if they'd delayed Sara's death OR have him compartmentalize, and then come to that conclusion 10 or so episodes later. Also, his rant to Felicity felt off about if he mourned than no one else would be able to. They aren't children, they are adults, they don't need him to be the emotional rock.

I just keep thinking... How much better would this episode have been if Laurel was the one to have died?

Answer: 500x better.

Why? You could've had the entire team support Sara and Oliver, Quentin would be in the know (because Sara would've told him) and probably would've joined the crusade on who killed Laurel, still would've gotten angsty Oliver except this time he could reflect on how terrible he was to Laurel and become a better man from it...

Ugh.

That's caption literally match SA's expression. lol

Ray is a stalker--point blank. I love Felicity, but unless there is some ulterior motive, why would he shell out that much cash just to have her work for him. That could literally been used in way, way better ways than trying to force someone's hand to work for you--especially one that thinks you're scum.

Stick a fork in her--Laurel's done. I got nothing from her in this episode. Nothing. I didn't understand why she didn't call the cops or even Team Arrow. Why did she carry the body to the Foundry herself? Why did every time she cried she had to hug Oliver? It felt seriously off to me. "Okay, I'm about to cry--time to hug Oliver." Name dropping to force herself to see a police protecting witness/victim, and then assaulting him because he won't being forthcoming. Laurel, he wasn't the reason your sister got killed and doesn't deserve to be assaulted because of it. Trying to kill someone without knowing for sure that he killed her sister. Oliver, yes, she should be held accountable for almost killing someone who was innocent of her sister's murder. The only reason she didn't kill him is because YOU took the bullets out. Why was Laurel even in the Foundry to begin with? Why was she ordering Felicity around??? Why does Oliver need to be on speaker or even her looking over Felicity's shoulders??? There is literally no reason she deserved to even be in the Foundry to begin with. Lastly, health condition or not, her father deserved to know that his daughter was killed. Laurel, you're not protecting him. But, knowing the series, she won't be called out about that.

I'll admit that I hate Laurel, but I never hated her to the point that seeing her onscreen ruined my Arrow watching experience. Besides the writing being bad for her, KC really does her character a HUGE disservice. She could've chosen way better acting choices, lack of facial movement, overselling some parts, etc. It's not going to get better, people. And this may not far well for the show.

As far as Felicity's outburst goes, six years ago my father died. My twin got upset at me because I wasn't mourning the way she was--yeah, that was wrong of her and I called her out about it, but grief sometimes takes people to a nasty place. Felicity had a bad moment and corrected herself, but her outburst also had to do with Oliver riding her and not allowing himself to be vulnerable. You have Felicity deeply grieving and Oliver barking at her about not bringing her A game, so at that moment, it seems like he has no emotions. It was wrong, but throughout most of the episode, she was either noticeably crying or holding back tears.

JenMcSnark · October 16, 2014

Well, I feel as sad as Oliver looked most of this damn episode. I tried to come into this ep open-minded, but the opening scene with Laurel just took me out for the duration. I, too, had the vision of Laurel trying to carry Sara to the lair and failing miserably. And then when she whined "It's just not fair!" I knew I didn't have a prayer of liking her.

Stephen killed it, as did David Ramsey. KC actually was okay for the most part, but the way they shoehorned Laurel into the lair and had her bossing and barking at Felicity just was wrong. As someone else mentioned, I think Felicity was closer to Sara than Laurel. And what the hell about Sin?? Several times in the episode I was waiting for Roy to mention her or contact her...something! But of course fucking not.

There really wasn't much that I actually liked. I surprised myself by liking the Ray Palmer stuff and thought EBR knocked it out of the park in all her scenes with him.

But having Oliver be SUCH a fucking dick to Felicity after last week? Made absolutely no sense, even with Sara dying. That was bullshit. I did like the Roy and Felicity interactions, but it seems weird too. It really seemed forced. Oliver would have been more concerned about her than he ever showed. Not to mention Diggle, who has been shown to be very close to Felicity. But for the second week in a row, Diggle seems to care less about Felicity (when she was injured last week) and that is horrible writing.

That episode just kind of ruined it for me. I want to like this show! I love Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, and Thea. I like Roy and Lance. I want to like Laurel. I'm kind of losing hope where I haven't before. *sigh* /rant

eta: I hate Laurel's pantsuits. KC is gorgeous and has a great figure (now that she looks healthy again). Certainly they could find something lawyerly that is more flattering to her. I did like the colors though.

Edited October 16, 2014 by JenMcSnark

catrox14 · October 16, 2014

YAAS! Malcolm and Thea!! That was great. In 3 seconds I totally bought that Thea was different now.

I'm sorry but Laurel remains an idiot. She goes over to the window that someone just fucking shot out and stands there all agape. I'm so done with Laurel,done. There is not enough done in the world for how much I want her off the show. Done. Done. Done. My eyes practically rolled out of my head every moment she was trying to sell her grief and worry and then flips to being all tough girl with the criminal. Sorry that is not organic character growth. Cassidy still can't act her way out of a paper bag.

Stephen, Emily and David were so great in their grief scenes. All of them reacted as I figured they would. Emily crying hurts my soul. Cassidy trying to cry hurts my eyes.

Shallow notes: Paul Blackthorne looks so much better with no hair. John Barrowman should never not wear blue.

TOMMY! TOMMY! TOMMY! Gods I want him back real time so badly now. That was just a horrible tease.

Edited October 16, 2014 by catrox14

wonderwall · October 16, 2014

An EXCELLENT analysis of Oliver and Felicity. Now I'm less bitter about the episode:

Everyone should read this:

http://www.itsjustaboutwrite.com/2014/10/arrow-3x02-sara-grief-does-not-change.html

Artsda · October 16, 2014

There was far far too much Laurel. Too much of her in the cave, too much of her in scenes, to much of her running around giving speeches on her pain. I ended up fast forwarding a lot, which is something I don't normally do with this show. Way to screw up writers!

Don't blame Felicity at all for taking Ray up on his job offer, with Laurel barking orders and parking herself in the cave I'd be running for somewhere else to work too!

Loved Thea's new hair and that she's got awesome skills that she actually worked and trained to get.

catrox14 · October 16, 2014

I was completely distracted from the first scene in which I was apparently supposed to believe that Laurel managed to get Sara there all by herself. Did she drag Sara by her ankles down the stairs? Not to mention, how did she get her on the table? I can't even lift my 70 lb dog up on the vet's table. I couldn't believe she wouldn't have just called Oliver to the death scene instead of letting them walk in on a dead body. Her car must be a bloody mess.

Not only that, but she left her eyes just staring open the whole time. What kind of sick thing is that? And Laurel being in the ArrowCave is horrible and gross. I knew she would start trying to boss people around and sure enough. Gods I hate Laurel.

quarks · October 16, 2014

Reaction post two, character stuff:

Felicity first:

From an acting viewpoint, I really liked EBR in this episode. I also liked quite a few of the Felicity scenes - her stuff with Roy, as said, was solid. I liked her scene where she called out Ray, and the bit where she was standing by the elevator trying not to cry. The less said about Laurel ordering her around the better, but, whatever.

And then:

Look, show, I get it. Oliver and Felicity just broke up last episode; Oliver was angry and jumped on her for not being fast enough to track down Komodo, she jumped back at him, realized she'd gone over the line, and apologized. I'm also fine for her standing up for herself at that moment.

But I cannot believe that, however hurt she might have been about Oliver breaking it off with her, however angry and upset she was about Sara's death, she would not have gone to him and done some form of "There has to be another way," and tried to offer some form of emotional support. Especially after he told her that he could only see one end to this: dying. We've seen Felicity fight back against those statements. It's what she does. For crying out loud, show, Felicity was more emotionally supportive of Oliver back when he was a serial killer. Especially given that at the beginning of this episode, she was willing to help fix the phone systems. How angry could she have been at Oliver?

However, it was the final words that had me gritting my teeth: "I decided I wanted to be something more."

Hello, show!

Last season, if you will remember, you gave us this big dramatic speech from Felicity where she said that if she didn't believe things would change, she would never have believed a crazy guy in a hood who told her "she could be something more." 100 points for the callback, minus 500 points for missing the point that the "something more" was joining a superhero team. Felicity's "something more" IS TEAM ARROW. She even agreed (eventually) to be an EA because she believed in this so strongly. She jumped out of a plane. She risked her life and got shot in the shoulder for this.

And I'm now expected to believe that her something more is going back to work in a corporation? Worse, work for someone who, as she has correctly stated, stole her friend's company partly through a dirty trick and has been stalking her?

And worse, the only reason this is happening is because you decided that you needed to halt Oliver/Felicity not through the actual issue that his previous girlfriend just died violently and his sister is refusing to talk to him and he thinks he's going to die, but because you want a love triangle. That's it. Even though one of the most criticized elements of your first season was - wait for it - a love triangle.

And the thing is, I could think of about ten ways to set up this love triangle without going against previous episodes.

And now, Laurel.

I am once again left with where on earth do I even begin?

Well, I'll begin with that for an episode meant to begin her superhero journey, it sucked. Let's go through it, bit by bit:

Number of ways Laurel fails as a human being this episode, eight: 1, deciding that when her sister died, the most appropriate way to let her friends know about this was to leave her body on the table, 2, failing to report the death to the appropriate authorities immediately. I get why the others didn't, but Laurel, you're a DA, and this way, more people could investigate the death, 3, lying to the cops about her authority to be there, 4, beating up a guy in a hospital bed, like, about the least of the issues there is, talk about problems with handling the case afterwards, 5, ordering Felicity around in the Arrow Cave, like, Laurel, Felicity is not your employee. Felicity, I take back what I said; you DO have reasons to go work for Ray and demanding something better. So sorry. Are we friends again? 6, yelling at Oliver after he's just JOUSTED WITH ANOTHER ARCHER ON A MOTORCYCLE for not doing enough, like, Laurel, I need to repeat this. Oliver was jousting with another archer on a motorcycle. Diggle was infiltrating ARGUS. You were yelling at Felicity for not turning on traffic cams. Exactly WHO in this situation was being useless here? 7, stealing a gun, 8, getting mad at everybody at the funeral because no one would remember Sara when YOU KNOW, LAUREL, IF YOU TOLD YOUR FATHER ABOUT SARA, YOU COULD HAVE HAD A NORMAL FUNERAL FOR HER WITH EMBALMING AND EVERYTHING. Little pipes could have played Amazing Grace. It would have been nice.

Number of ways Laurel fails as a superhero in this, her initial outing, four: 1, arguing with the group leader when they really don't have time for this, 2, stealing a gun, 3, failing to notice that the gun wasn't loaded, like, are you kidding me? 3, trying to kill a guy who wasn't even the killer after Oliver had taken him down, like, that was useful, Laurel, 4, while I'm at it, trying to kill an unarmed man who was unable to move. 5, being completely outcooled by Thea.

(Also Malcolm, but that's taken for granted.)

Unfortunately, this mirrors last season: when the writers chose to focus on Laurel, Felicity would often be very much marginalized or do something that I read as out of character (hi, Time of Death) and Laurel came off looking worse.

Writers. On the admittedly off chance that you read this forum, a quick note:

1. Laurel generally does best in small doses and in a supporting role.

2. If you are serious about having her in this superhero role, you have to have her be a superhero. You had Oliver start off by snapping out of the chair he was tied to and killing two armed men. You had Roy's stunt double start off with parkour and fighting off several guys. You had Sara enter with a major action scene saving Roy from several guys. You had Thea just disarm and knock down two guys. Incidentally, all of them? Hit the actual targets.

You had Laurel start off by beating up a guy in a hospital bed and try to kill the wrong guy - after a previous episode saw her shoot the wrong guy in the back. And the only reason that last bit didn't work was that a man had unloaded her gun and she didn't even notice.

This is not the journey of a superhero. I don't know what it is, but it's not that.

That this all happened in an episode with MOTORCYCLE JOUSTING WITH BOWS - you know what, I'm now bitter.

writersblock51 · October 16, 2014

I watched it after reading various bits about it, so nothing was a surprise.

SA was phenomenal throughout. I think he hit every note just right.

It was jarring to me, though, how he and Felicity were with each other in the very first scene - like nothing monumental had happened last week. I get trying to make sure you can still work with each other on Arrow Business but that was odd. And when Felicity was crying, Roy seemed to be looking at Oliver to gauge what to do, like "Are you hugging her or should I? 'Cause she really needs one of us to hug her right now. No? OK, I'll do it."

Immediately after they all got into the belly of the lair, though, there was Sara on the table and Laurel just standing there. How on earth did Laurel move the body? This stuff needs to be brought up or shown... If the show wants the audience to love Laurel, stuff like this needs to be addressed.

EBR was terrific in her scenes as well - she was on the verge in every scene. For someone who has pieced together a family carefully (and has major abandonment issues, which were NOT helped by the latest stuff with Oliver), it seemed fitting that she was grieving openly. Plus she and Sara had formed a friendship that was intense because of the nature of what they do. She had saved Sara's life at one point, too.

Diggle - not nearly enough of him.

I'm not a fan of having the Digglette named after Sara, and I'm a big Sara fan. Naming the baby after Sara isn't a surpirse but I would have preferred if the baby's name had something do with Andy.

Quentin - I absolutely disaree with the decision to not tell him right now about Sara. I hope he launches into a thorough smack down of Laurel when he utlimately finds out. Laurel had no right keeping Sara's death from their parents. None. Is Alex Kingston scheduled to make an appearance?

Felicity & Oliver - aside from the initial 'we don't talk about what happened last week' start, I think they showed how tentative they are around each other right now. Otherwise I think they would have comforted each other. And Felicity's 'I'm not going to wait for you down here' speech was well written and acted. it's even more interesting when you realize that she had been under the assumption that she was planning to wait for him to get his shit together prior to Sara's death. Now she's not. Hence going to Ray for a job.

Laurel - the kindest thing I can say is that I suppose it could have been worse.

But I'm done with her.

Tommy - wish there'd been more with him but I enjoyed what we got. And the final scene with him and Oliver was gut wrenching. I miss Tommy!

And, finally, Sara. I didn't need to see her death scene again. I hope that marks the last time that happens. She deserved so much better. First a sucker punch death, then the dumpster and, finally, stored in an honest to God fridge.

For a show that plays with it's mythology well enough to know how to work with symbols, I cannot think of a more offensive series of acts to truly trash a character. And the show is patting itself on the back for putting together a 'love letter.'

If that's how they address the death of a character that they profess to love & respect, I can't even fathom how they can explain this or will deal with a character they don't like.

and YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thea!! I think she's playing Merlyn, too.

Edited October 16, 2014 by writersblock51

foreverevolving · October 16, 2014

Oh! Oh!

Thanks to twitter for reminding me: the brand new "my name is oliver...."

Edited October 16, 2014 by foreverevolving

statsgirl · October 16, 2014

I wonder if Laurel's pantsuits are to give her a Hilary Clinton-esque vibe. Smart, capable woman lawyer.

You have Felicity deeply grieving and Oliver barking at her about not bringing her A game, so at that moment, it seems like he has no emotions. It was wrong, but throughout most of the episode, she was either noticeably crying or holding back tears.

Telling her to bring her 'A;' game was a really douchey thing to do, as if she wasn't going to try as hard as she could for Sara's sake. I understand it from his perspective, that he was feeling sad and helpless and wanted to be pointed in a direction, and I understand it from hers, she was grieving and feeling helpless, and I understand it from MG and AK's view because they wanted to put a wedge between Oliver and Felicity so Laurel could have Oliver's arms around her, but it doesn't make it any better.

And worse, the only reason this is happening is because you decided that you needed to halt Oliver/Felicity not through the actual issue that his previous girlfriend just died violently and his sister is refusing to talk to him and he thinks he's going to die, but because you want a love triangle. That's it. Even though one of the most criticized elements of your first season was - wait for it - a love triangle.

Good points. I can't believe that the real Felicity would have walked out on Oliver like that rather than comforting him. (Or even that she went to Roy to be held rather than Oliver.)

This is bringing back nightmares of last season when they decided to halt Oliver/Felicity and did it by having Oliver out of the blue start sleeping with Sara again. Apparently, the only way they know how to slow down a relationship is to have one of the pair start seeing a third party, just as the only way they know how to motivate Oliver is through a dead loved one.

And Felicity's 'I'm not going to wait for you down here' speech was well written and acted. it's even more interesting when you realize that she had been under the assumption that she was waiting for him to get his shit together prior to Sara's death. Now she's not. Hence going to Ray for a job.

I missed that but yes, she must have been hanging on to hope that he would come out of his exile. Maybe that's why they weren't uncomfortable with each other in the opening episode. LOL at your write-up of Roy's thoughts "Are you hugging her or should I? 'Cause she really needs one of us to hug her right now. No? OK, I'll do it."

Edited October 16, 2014 by statsgirl

Trini · October 16, 2014

Yeah, the motorcycle stunts were great. More of that, show.

quarks · October 16, 2014

@Wonderwall, thanks for that link. That and everybody else's comments here have made me reconsider my comments on Felicity, or at least accept things more. You guys are all right: she was grieving. Though I still think the Oliver/Felicity conversation was less organic, and more to force a love triangle between Oliver/Felicity/Ray, and I'm not thrilled that Oliver and Felicity didn't once share a supportive hug/touch during this episode.

I also realize I forgot to mention Routh as Ray. I still don't like the character, but this is possibly the first time in history that I've liked Routh's acting - notably that smooth switch between stalker willing to spend 1.2 billion to get the girl to seemingly nice guy offering to listen. Very well played, especially with the edge of "is he doing this to play her, or does he mean it?" So worth noting.

@statsgirl, I really want to avoid politics here and focus on Arrow, but I feel you may owe Hilary Clinton an apology here. Whatever else can be said about her, pro or con, she would have checked to make sure that gun was loaded.

And one more note to the writers:

Look, I have no doubt that you intend Oliver/Felicity as endgame.

Which is exactly why bringing up even the mere hint that you intend to go back to Oliver/Laurel is a bad idea, especially this season. For one thing, you are using Oliver/Felicity to sell your show. For a second thing, this is deeply unfair to anyone still shipping Oliver/Laurel (I'm serious, not snarking here.)

But most importantly, it starts to erode confidence in your show - a show that, a few elements aside, really has a lot of strengths. I'm not kidding about the motorcycle jousting: that was awesome. Ray being slimy and supportive? Awesome. Malcolm Merlyn, awesome. Thea cutting down ninjas? MORE OF THIS, PLEASE. This is all stuff I love. All stuff I want to see more of. But for me to see it, bluntly, you need to keep viewers. And this sort of teasing...well. This thread.

wonderwall · October 16, 2014

@Wonderwall, thanks for that link. That and everybody else's comments here have made me reconsider my comments on Felicity, or at least accept things more. You guys are all right: she was grieving. Though I still think the Oliver/Felicity conversation was less organic, and more to force a love triangle between Oliver/Felicity/Ray, and I'm not thrilled that Oliver and Felicity didn't once share a supportive hug/touch during this episode.

No worries! I'm going to give all the OOC moments a free pass this episode because grief makes people do and say crazy things and I'm sure people who have lost loved ones would know.

While I didn't like that Oliver was overly harsh with Felicity, I think he was taking out his frustrations on her as a way for compensating for not grieving over Sara. It still doesn't make it right, but I'm glad Felicity had none of it and I think it all came to a head when she lashed out at Oliver. This is a different side to Oliver/Felicity. It's something we've never seen and I hope that this isn't the end of their fight and that the writers give them closure. I guess that's why I was left unsatisfied with Oliver/Felicity. They didn't make up. But it seems as though they're both on the same emotional journey (am I more than my hero counterpart?). Felicity is just getting to her destination faster.

I don't mind Oliver consoling Laurel because who else would? They were both the closest to Sara which is why I didn't mind it. I didn't see it as Oliver going back to Laurel because I saw no romantic context or romantic undertones. Laurel didn't affect Oliver the way Felicity did this episode. She wasn't the catalyst who made Oliver start his journey on trying to balance out being GA and being Oliver Queen. Laurel wasn't concerned for Oliver like Felicity was. This is why I don't mind Oliver consoling Laurel. Because all of the actual emotional and openly honest scenes with Oliver went to Felicity.

statsgirl · October 16, 2014

@statsgirl, I really want to avoid politics here and focus on Arrow, but I feel you may owe Hilary Clinton an apology here. Whatever else can be said about her, pro or con, she would have checked to make sure that gun was loaded.

You are right. And to avoid politics, I'm pretty sure that Condeleeza Rice would too. Sarah Palin probably would have a loaded back-up shot-gun with her..

Though I still think the Oliver/Felicity conversation was less organic, and more to force a love triangle between Oliver/Felicity/Ray,

I think this was less Ray, because that's in the future, than to have Oliver's arms free for Laurel to fling herself into. You know, I think I would have preferred it if Laurel had been crying in Felicity's arms instead of Oliver's because Felicity cared for Sara too, and Oliver was all stoic and apart from them. It would have been consistent with him being shut off this episode, and it wouldn't have brought up the shadow of Lauriver, which, as you say, is really unfair to Lauriver fans if they are not going to do it. Also it would have progressed the Laurel/Felicity bonding they seem to be trying for more than Laurel barking orders at her and calling her in to the lair to work.

Whether Ray is smarmy or not, which we will probably find out, I like his grand gestures of spending $1.2 billion to get a company so Felicity would work for him, in contrast to Oliver forcing her to be his EA (although I'm sure Ray will make a profit out it), or taking only $1 as salary to get the city moving. (It reminded me that Mark Zuckerburg just donated another $25 million to help Africa with the Ebola crisis.) It's such a contrast to the closed-off Oliver.

And on a positive note, I like that Felicity said that she admired Sara for being fearless. Felicity is so often having to fight her own fears and I appreciate the continuity.

Edited October 16, 2014 by statsgirl

wonderwall · October 16, 2014

Basically this is the payoff to the Olicity fight I'm looking for... Is this too much to ask? :p

Jediknight · October 16, 2014

Basically this is the payoff to the Olicity fight I'm looking for... Is this too much to ask? :p

I don't want Oliver to become a megadouche who organizes bum fights, supplies GHB to people, drugs his best friend, torches a community pool, destroys evidence in a murder investigation allowing a murderer to go free, and when his friend starts a fire at a hotel just hightails it out of there without trying to warn anyone.

Sorry, I just hate Logan Echolls.

TanyaKay · October 16, 2014

The Hong Kong stuff. Good to see Tommy back and get a reminder that wow, Malcolm is one hell of a bastard. I also loved that place he was staying with the little steps going across the pool? And the solution they came up with, even if it left poor Oliver and Tommy all sad.

(also it reminded me that Tommy was Oliver's best friend. Thanks show!)

As others have said, Roy knew how to hack the FBI database? And does he regularly try to get on Twitter from the Arrow Cave? What exactly does he tweet, anyway? "Dudes, I'd tell you about my awesome new red fighting costume but I only have 144 characters #vigilante #leather" I mean, really.

Forget what Roy is tweeting, I am more worried about the people who are following him on twitter.

Snark aside, I liked that moment when he confided in Felicity about Thea and then Felicity told him, in no non sense manner, that he must tell Oliver and then he did and Oliver reacted like a rational adult. It was all so reasonable and logical that I almost cried at it - everyone acting like intelligent rational adults.

But then it was also an episode which had things like LL carrying her dead assassin sister from god knows where to the foundry, then stuffing that dead assassin in a refrigerator and then LL knowing exactly which drawer had a gun and then throwing a hissy fit at Oliver for failing to catch the Komodo guy.

Tommy Merlyn was such a good friend, if I ever get lost, I would want a Tommy Merlyn of my own who would never stop looking for me. This episode and Tommy's love for Oliver made me even more mad at Oliver for having sex with LL without drawing the curtains or blinds back in season 1 and poor Tommy had to witness that. My heart will forever bleed for him.

Happy Harpy · October 16, 2014

So I checked a recap, read the comments here, and BoP isn't anymore the only episode of Arrow I didn't and won't watch. It sounds like another Pod People episode.

Laurel in the Arrowcave, giving orders in the Arrowcave? Again: Does. not. compute. Does. not.exist.

The gif posted above is so on the mark, it is the mark.

I'm now certain they're going to ruin the show for Laurel, "fixing" what ain't broken and imposing what doesn't work and can't act. They artificially gave Laurel more importance and (wasted) space, and I think they're on their way to artificially ruin Team Arrow through OOC behaviors (my Diggle's "you were right" last week was already one, imho) . For me, Oliver/Felicity is a part of it before they're a romantic pairing, so if they go down, so does Team Arrow and so does the show.

Actually, worse, I do think they're going to ruin Felicity. Because not having seen the scene and the nuances EBR probably brought to it, and just reading the "feeling" line, it struck me...Check the bitterness tread (IIRC), and the gifs of Laurel's S1 nasty remarks to Oliver. It couldn't belong there more if the writers tried to make Felicity as unpleasant.

After the disrespect they just showed the character of Sara (literally fridged? you gotta be fucking kidding me) I think that no one is safe. Even if Felicity and Diggle aren't killed off, there are many, many other ways the writers can use to assassinate them.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Happy Harpy

foreverevolving · October 16, 2014

Smoak&Arrow posted this gif and I just had to (procrastination at its finest)

BunsenBurner · October 16, 2014

Loved all the comments. Did not particularly like the episode. SA and EBR brought their A game.

Thought it was telling that when EBR showed up to accept the job with Ray she was wearing brown was not wearing glasses and had her hair straight again. Wonder if her clothes will stay dark.

steelyis · October 16, 2014

KC bungled every scene she had and that's kind of impressive. The worst piece of "acting" she did was when she made a scene at Sara's grave. And the writers multiplied its awfulness when they had Laurel do the one thing that never fails to drive me crazy with hate when a character does it: she made the scene all about her.

That was a moment that should have been about Sara and her friends grieving. What do they have Laurel do? Make her have a fit so everyone present focuses on her. I half suspect Laurel didn't tell her dad about Sara's death because she didn’t want to share the grieving spotlight him.

The worst thing Laurel did, I thought, was torturing an innocent man. It would have been less offensive if he'd been a bad guy or even acted like a jerk, but he was just an innocent victim that Laurel tortured. Laurel didn't even seem to care when he was killed in front of her either.

How are they going to turn this loathsome creature into a likeable hero?

EBR knock all her scenes out of the park! Stephen Amell played his scenes exactly right and David Ramsey, as always, was flawless. These three and their interactions, in whatever combination, will always be the backbone of this show.

While I didn't like that Oliver was overly harsh with Felicity, I think he was taking out his frustrations on her as a way for compensating for not grieving over Sara. It still doesn't make it right, but I'm glad Felicity had none of it and I think it all came to a head when she lashed out at Oliver. This is a different side to Oliver/Felicity. It's something we've never seen and I hope that this isn't the end of their fight and that the writers give them closure. I guess that's why I was left unsatisfied with Oliver/Felicity. They didn't make up. But it seems as though they're both on the same emotional journey (am I more than my hero counterpart?). Felicity is just getting to her destination faster.

I love that scene because it shows how different Oliver and Felicity are emotionally. Felicity wears her heart on her sleeve and Oliver is addicted to burying his feelings. I think it frustrates and confuses Felicity that Oliver can be stoic after Sara's death so her reaction made perfect sense to me. And SA's expression after Felicity accused him of having no feelings killed me—some excellent acting on his part.

Moya the Leviathan · October 16, 2014

Laurel probably let Sara's head smack every step on the way down. She needs to make sure Sara's dead, so she can take her place.

Marry me, Sakura12.

<it's been an excellent week for marriage in the U.S.>

Password · October 16, 2014

This was the most sad Arrow episode I've ever watched. Just the tone, everyone was mourning. Some excellent performances but some points of contention for me too.

WHY IS LAUREL IN THE ARROW CAVE HOVERING OVER FELICITY AND GIVING ORDERS? It irked me. I knew some on this board would feel the same.

Ok look, I really liked the emotional scene between Felicity and Ray at the elevator. BUT. I still can't quite handle him paying $1.2b for her to work with him. Some might be flattered, thinking oh look Oliver didn't do that. I'm not. At all. I can't deal with someone going that far to get what they want. Then to top it off the emotional scene making him seem compassionate and caring just screams mind effing.

I was surprised, or not surprised at Oliver and Felicity's interaction. He was unseasonably cold to her, and she fought back which was wonderful. But not even a hug? Someone! Fine, they're not exactly ok with one another but damn. I didn't think there was anything romantic in Oliver's consoling Laurel. Indeed the most open he was, was with Felicity when she called him out. Colour me surprised that Oliver already admits to Diggle in episode 2 that he doesn't want to die. Contrast to season 1 where he knew that's how his crusade would end.

I'm glad Felicity FINALLY decided to start living life outside of team Arrow and Oliver. But...there's a lot that seems fairly contrived. This happened, queue that happening in response kind of contrivance. However, I sincerely hope the smarmyness Ray is displaying ends NOW. I can't deal if it continues. I'm super glad at any time someone comforts Felicity and allows her to lean on them. Kudos to that scene.

Now...everything else:

Diggle naming child Sara - Nope, not a fan. Also not enough Diggle.

Roy being able to hack FBI - Nope, Nope, Nope. I fanwank it's because it's somehow a computer instruction running in the background but even that seems fairly unsafe and impossible.

Laurel in the Arrow Cave - Ridiculous. Nuff said.

Sara being in a literal fridge - Extremely insensitive of the writers. I didn't find it amusing at all, knowing that "fridging" is a thing in comics.

Laurel not telling Quentin - Ridiculous.

The motorcycle scene - Dumb. Playing chicken over and over seemed stupid. I got bored with it.

Thea and Merlyn - Completely creeped me out when she said "daddy". I can't even handle how brain washed she potentially is, unless she's doing it on purpose just to get Merlyn under her control (please let it be).

Oliver finally looking for Thea - Thank you. It's happened. Worst brother of the year for 2 years running can finally go to someone else.

Overall, I liked Felicity's interaction with Ray and I hope at the very least an excellent friendship happens before something more. This episode, when really looked at, was very argh, eww, no don't. But anyway, onwards and hopefully upwards.

Artsda · October 16, 2014

I thought Ray and Felicity's was a bright spot, really liked that even though he barely knows her he spotted instantly that she was hurting over something else and took it out on him. That he even offered her some words of comfort.

Ray >>>> Laurel.

foreverevolving · October 16, 2014

The - Can't figure if it's good, bad or just is:

- Tommy's Hair. looked like it was taken straight out of Grease.

Just sayin.

Oh and Tommy emptying his drink into the pool as he was talking to Malcolm.

Edited October 16, 2014 by foreverevolving

Password · October 16, 2014

Oh my word Tommy made me emotional. Loved that he was the one looking for his best friend. Just heart breaking.

What was funny was only one officer coming to his rescue. Made me laugh.

wonderwall · October 16, 2014

Okay. I keep flip flopping about my opinions about the episode. Now that I've actually had time to think about it, I really like where each individual character is heading. Bear with me here.

Felicity is becoming more independent and realizing that she wants a life. Anyone who calls her a mary sue after this episode is severely mistaken and is probably blinded by their dislike. I love how although she deeply cares for Oliver, she puts herself first because she deserves better than to sit around waiting for the person she cares about to die. I saw a broken Felicity in this episode, but this made her stronger in the end by going to Ray and taking that job. I truly wonder what Oliver's reaction is going to be when he finds out that she did.
Diggle is right where I always thought he would be. Right behind Oliver and supporting him. This is what I love about the show. Their friendship is so deep and John simply understands Oliver and what he needs. While I felt that calling his daughter Sara was contrived, Diggle also named his daughter after a strong, beautiful, confident, warrior and I see nothing wrong with that.
I easily could've disliked Oliver in this episode but SA just refused to let me. He made his choice in episode 1 about just being the Arrow and he was following through with that choice. He essentially made himself a martyr. But that scene with Felicity just made me feel so incredibly bad for him because it showed that Oliver is so god damn lost and it's so sad to see him like this. And when Oliver claimed that he didn't want to die down there, that was character development. That was his first step forwards in his journey regarding his 'identity crisis'. And SA just hit it out of the park. He deserves to be the MVP of the episode.
Laurel wasn't as annoying as I thought she would be. I really liked her saying that she shouldn't be in a bar. Character development right there. But I also didn't sympathize that much with her... I mean with SA and EBR knocking their scenes out of the park, it would always be difficult for me to sympathize with a character I don't like. Some of what she said and some of her acting scenes were a bit dicey, but I liked Laurel being a bitch. I hope they continue on a darker path with her. I really do. Also I didn't really like how Laurel bossed Felicity around. But I'll give her the benefit of the doubt because she was desperate to find Sara's killer. If she acts like that in future episodes, yeah that won't be on with me.
I thought it was a terrible move to not tell Quentin. He deserved to know regardless of the reasons Laurel kept it from him. This decision is definitely going to bite Laurel in the ass and I hope Quentin and her drift apart as a result of it. Well not forever, but I need for there to be consequences for Laurel's actions.
I still don't know what they're doing with Roy. I hope they figure it out soon.
As for Ray. I thought that he was really creepy. I mean, really really creepy. But then when he backed off because he saw Felicity was in distress, I appreciated him a bit more. But still. Yeah. Ray is creepy and I don't see any romantic vibes going on there. I can see them being friends. But not as romantic partners. Still not sold on this explosive chemistry between them the EPs always tout about.

I'm less upset about the episode, I'd give it a B-. The writing sucked, but some characters elevated it (EBR, SA, DR) and made their parts fantastic.

fantique · October 16, 2014

Will comment on each character because this was obviously a character episode.

Oliver: felt realistic to me that he went the stony route. Hated that he was accusing Felicity of not doing all she could to find Sara's killer. Glad he smelled the coffee and realised that he is not a character in a greek tragedy with "fate" already decided and being miserable also becomes a choice. I think that's one of the biggest hurdles for the Olicity relationship. SA killed it with his reaction to the "no feelings" thing. He looked like he had been slapped.
Felicity: bought her grief and the deleted scenes from last season did show she had gotten quite close to Sara so it felt authentic. Let it be noted as well that this is the first Arrow death that is directly affecting her. With Moira and Tommy, she was sad by association. Here it hit her that being part of the team also might mean not being allowed to let those personal grievances get to you. She obviously feels that to honour a lost one, revenge is not the way but letting yourself mourn and move on is. That's why her reaction didn't shock me. Was not surprised she hugged Roy "instead" of Oliver because to her they are all family and all need support from each other. EBR was really good this episode especially in her more subtle grieving scenes. I felt like both her and KC had to "overact" to emphasise Oliver's stony composure because both times where they both overacted where when Oliver was in extreme stonewall mode. Also really happy he didn't blow up at Roy for the letter.
Laurel:...sigh. I really want them to get this right and so far they are stumbling. I actually liked her vehement/bitchy moments and her icy revenge goal because I always felt that Laurel was a rager, not a griever. The only crying scene I liked was at the cemetery. All the other ones felt forced, the blocking was awkward too. It felt like she would go out of her way to cry into Oliver's arms which made me cringe. This felt more like a KC choice than a written/directed instruction. I also felt the two ladies might have been to be overly emotive when Oliver was super stony and more subtle when he wasn't as hard faced. Hated that she is not telling her father. Her reasoning is so bad, the consequences seem to be more about her than about her father. Even if it was reasonable I would hate it.
Roy: Good effort! I liked him and actually took him as a serious part of the team and his link to Thea is always a great acting impetus for CH. I think he is a good emotion actor and they let him do that too rarely. There were layers to his performance. I liked that he suspected something was wrong with Thea, confessed to Felicity and then revealed the letter to Oliver.
Lance: Always love him and the way he helps smooth out the edges of the Laurel character. I hate that he was lied o and am apprehensive of what it means for him in the future. Hope he will be pissed and not brush it off.
Thea: that was cooooool. I think he calling Malcolm dad was more of a cheeky thing rather than "OOh! we are family now, daddy dearest".
saving the best for last, Diggle: He was amazing. He was just on point. Every. Time. I always appreciated that DR is good with emotionality. I accept him naming the baby Sara because I felt that they were comrades. I feel he had the same respect for that he had for Oliver before completely trusting him and Sara was a like minded fighter. I could see why he would pay homage to her by naming his daughter after her.

ETA: Oops, forgot Ray Palmer. I think he is one of those people that had the saying never give up and give it a 1000% drilled into his head and leads to him annoyingly persistent. I liked the insight of seeing that she was not in the state of being harassed by him. Still thought that he should be clever to realise that she was both upset at something else and rightfully pissed at his presumption.

ETA2: I also don't think the Oliver and Felicity talk about staying in the basement was about their romantic tangent, all had been said. I think it was about highlighting that certain things and predispositions surface when being faced with a death that makes you think of your own life. It was more about them prising different things and showing how differently they think. Felicity strikes me as the person being nice and positive because she chose to, because she feels her life is better with that outlook. Not because she was born a goody two shoes who puts no effort in being nice. I also find the styling choice interesting when she goes to get the job. Muted colours, no brightness and her hair down. It felt much more mature and assertive.

Edited October 16, 2014 by fantique

Big Bad Wolf · October 16, 2014

Waaay too much Laurel in this one.

The way Laurel talks to Felicity as if she works for her really irritates me. And it's not just the snotty line readings by KC; in this episode, Laurel says to Felicity on the phone: "I've got something. Meet me at Verdant." 1) What about a "please", or framing it as a request rather than an order, and 2) Um, Felicity would already BE at Verdant, obviously, so Laurel should have said, "I'll meet you at Verdant." So the writers are at fault for the way the Laurel/Felicity relationship is being framed, as well as KC for her snotty line delivery. (Unless, of course, KC didn't deliver the line exactly as written, but I have no way to know that.)

And who goes to tell someone that their daughter has died at their workplace??? WTF? Were they saving on sets, or something?

I quite like Ray, even if he can be a bit 'over-enthusiastic' in his seduction technique.

Still don't care about Hong Kong, Tommy or no Tommy.

Ceylon5 · October 16, 2014

However, it was the final words that had me gritting my teeth: "I decided I wanted to be something more."

But Felicity didn't say that. What she actually said is: "I'm sorry, I'm not going to wait with you, because if there's one thing that today has taught me is that life is precious and I want so much more in mine than this."

And IMO she wasn't talking about their Arrow work at all, because she wasn't quitting or anything like that (she continued to do her Arrow stuff later in the episode) - she was talking on a personal level. Bear in mind this whole conversation takes place within a day or so of him breaking up with her because he supposedly can't be the Arrow & Oliver Queen (whatever that means). She's saying that she wants more out of life than just their crusade - she wants love and happiness and, most importantly, a future. If Oliver isn't prepared to believe in a future with her, then that's his prerogative, but she isn't going to let him stop her from having a future.

In terms of the rawness of where they are in their relationship at this point, I can totally get why she's not doing her full-on Oliver propping at this point, and is instead just trying to survive her own pain and grief, not only over Sara, but also over Oliver breaking her heart the day before. She did try to get through to him, but she's not really in a place to deal with Oliver and his crap at that moment. I think it's a bit much to expect her to always be the strong, hopeful one, regardless of where she is emotionally.

And her remark about him having no feelings, was, for me, a direct continuation of their conversation where he told her he was going to be only the Arrow (lean, mean, fighting machine), and not Oliver (a man who can love & grieve and feel things and have relationships). She was throwing back at him the flimsy excuse he'd given her for not being with her, to show him that he was full of crap. I was 100% with her on that.

[ETA: And I've just realised the reference was probably to her line at the end of the episode to Ray. There she said, "I just decided I want more out of life", which is the same thing she said to Oliver, but worded slightly differently.]

Edited October 16, 2014 by Ceylon5

Ariah · October 16, 2014

There is a difference in weight if a gun is loaded or empty. Really. I've been to shooting range and shot live ammunition, I know. Also, there's the funny thing with having one round in the chamber when you're about to shot. One should check if the gun is reloaded and checking involves actually seeing the round. So please, writers, stop insulting the viewers intelligence with "the gun was empty" twist. If you need to go this way, use "I loaded blanks", which is also kind of riddiculous, but more palusible. A blank can still kill a person if used in very close proximity. Make the gun jam, writers. This actually can happen quite often.

Ok, rant /off.

I guess I'm in the minority with my lack of shock from Sara's death. Actually, I found the process the team had to go through after her death (what to do with the body, how to deal with the fact that she cannot be burried legaly) quite realistic if harsh and cruel. It was cruel to have such a great character killed, it was cruel to have her body placed in the freezer, it was cruel to have her burried in a pine box in her old lot. But this is how it had to be. Death in itself is unfair. Whatever is done after, is never going to make up for things neglected when the deceased was alive. Yes, what was done to Sara's remains was pragmatic and practical and as such it can be viewed as emotionless. But it was not shown as good - Felicity said this out loud. It was only shown as a cruel necessity, as everything regarding sudden death is.

More nitpicks:

- How did lithe Laurel carry more bulky dead Sara with the arrows still sticking out of her to the Foundry? And how did nobody in the streets noticed that?

- Will detective Lance wonder why Sara's grave had been re-digged?

Romantic Angle:

Felicity, while talking of Sara to Oliver touched upon a valid subject: if Oliver is capable of not-grieving "his Sara", would he grieve for Felicity? Ever? Or is he virtually incapable of feeling anything? From Felicity's point of view, this can be the case. That's why she simply walks away from this situation, unwilling to wait for Oliver's feelings to resurface.

Olliver bottles up. He thinks he's being strong, but he's just being miserable and making other people around him even more so. But, a fun observation: each time Laurel went for a hug, he reacted as if he was trying to keep her as far away from his body as possible. Even when he patted her head, it was terribly distant. As if I was watching to shop manequins hugging, with their joints not well oiled.

Also, I'm all for Felicity starting new job. I think, to some extent, Oliver took Felicity for granted (Laurel sure did this episode, I was hoping for Felicity to say something to the bossy lawyer). Now, with Felicity exploring other options, Oliver may start to miss her (I hope!) and realize how terrible his decisions are.

ostentatious · October 16, 2014

So the only reason they are hiding Sara's death is so that THAT can become a plot device that'll bite them in the ass sometime in the future, right? Ugh. Poor Quentin.

I hope that it turns out they are really hiding it because the show needs Sara not embalmed and traditionally buried because she's coming back. The arrows could've been coated with something, right? Right.

I was shocked that Oliver was so brutal with the guy in the warehouse. And then I saw Laurel with the guy in the hospital bed, and said "snap". Laurel makes Oliver more vicious.

At least that's consistent. Laurel has always brought out the worst in him. Oliver is so mutable, so dependent upon outside influences. I think the entire show is about him learning who to listen to, as he evolves into being able to trust his own judgment.

Really, the worst thing about Laurel being around...I hate to use the word "shoehorn" but Laurel comes in and everyone has to start acting OOC, because otherwise she couldn't be there. Oliver has always become an asshole in her presence, so at least he felt realistic.

I couldn't blame Felicity for snapping either. Oliver had a tendency to really ride her when he's angry or moody and I'm amazed that she hasn't snapped and stabbed him with one of his arrows when he gets like that.

Yeah, a bigger problem for me than the fact that he ignored the woman he's supposed to love when she was grieving a friend is that he used her as a release valve for his frustration again. Not okay. Less okay than her reacting to him being a jackass to her, for which she apologized. Did he? Can't remember.

So, I'm going to go ahead and call Sara's killer as Tommy for one very simple reason: he was in this episode.

The killer has to be someone we know, because Voice Changer. That means it is either a dead person or a person we'd be shocked was evil. They also obviously have to be an archer. I also believe we're to believe Oliver is correct that it isn't the LoA, who would only kill her if she was trying to leave again, and wouldn't do it secretly anyway. They have to be someone known to Sara. They also have to be someone Sara is surprised to see, but not shocked to see. And, crucially, they have to be *established*.

A new viewer has to be shown who they are, and if they aren't already on the show that means they have to be put on the table and explained so the eventual reveal is set up. It was nice to see Tommy, but what purpose did that really serve? He fits or can be made to fit all the requirements pretty easily, except Sara not being shocked. However...Sara has many secrets. It is not outside the realm of possibility that she would keep that sort of info to herself if she thought it best. There has always been, and continues to be, an awful lot of folks on this show deciding for others what info they are allowed to have, for their own good.

There would also have to be motive, but motive has to be addressed regardless.

What I loved this ep: Thea taking a level in badass (she looks fucking amazing). Ray not giving up, because I do assume he has reasons for going to this kind of trouble. I really like Oliver, who gives up too easily, contrasted with the other extreme.

What I didn't: Everything else. I was really bored.

Edited October 16, 2014 by thecatbastet

looptab · October 16, 2014

So, so many thoughts on this.

I liked Felicity and Roy, and really liked Felicity and Ray: that scene at the elevator was awesome. But more Felicity and Diggle, please.

It was good seeing that Oliver's felt the immediate need to reach out to Thea. And SA was great in this episode. I felt constantly that he was on the verge but had to keep himself in check.

I am once again left with where on earth do I even begin?

Well, I'll begin with that for an episode meant to begin her superhero journey, it sucked. Let's go through it, bit by bit:

Number of ways Laurel fails as a human being this episode, eight: 1, deciding that when her sister died, the most appropriate way to let her friends know about this was to leave her body on the table, 2, failing to report the death to the appropriate authorities immediately. I get why the others didn't, but Laurel, you're a DA, and this way, more people could investigate the death, 3, lying to the cops about her authority to be there, 4, beating up a guy in a hospital bed, like, about the least of the issues there is, talk about problems with handling the case afterwards, 5, ordering Felicity around in the Arrow Cave, like, Laurel, Felicity is not your employee. Felicity, I take back what I said; you DO have reasons to go work for Ray and demanding something better. So sorry. Are we friends again? 6, yelling at Oliver after he's just JOUSTED WITH ANOTHER ARCHER ON A MOTORCYCLE for not doing enough, like, Laurel, I need to repeat this. Oliver was jousting with another archer on a motorcycle. Diggle was infiltrating ARGUS. You were yelling at Felicity for not turning on traffic cams. Exactly WHO in this situation was being useless here? 7, stealing a gun, 8, getting mad at everybody at the funeral because no one would remember Sara when YOU KNOW, LAUREL, IF YOU TOLD YOUR FATHER ABOUT SARA, YOU COULD HAVE HAD A NORMAL FUNERAL FOR HER WITH EMBALMING AND EVERYTHING. Little pipes could have played Amazing Grace. It would have been nice.

Number of ways Laurel fails as a superhero in this, her initial outing, four: 1, arguing with the group leader when they really don't have time for this, 2, stealing a gun, 3, failing to notice that the gun wasn't loaded, like, are you kidding me? 3, trying to kill a guy who wasn't even the killer after Oliver had taken him down, like, that was useful, Laurel, 4, while I'm at it, trying to kill an unarmed man who was unable to move. 5, being completely outcooled by Thea.

Agreed with all of this.

Having her bringing Sara in the lair by herself, or at all, Just. Made. No. Sense. ,as many of you pointed out. And , unfortunately, I couldn't get behind her behaviour at all. I get grief, I get anger, but why don't you let your professional vigilante friend and his team take care of this instead of trying to meddle? If it was, say, Felicity, who all of a sudden decided to go all revenge-y, everybody would cry foul. Well, Laurel has the same lack of foundation to act like this. The only reason we're supposed to buy it is because of the comics and because we know who Laurel is supposed to become, but otherwise it isn't supported by anything else. I actually screamed a WTF are you doing??? when she went and took the gun, and hated her barking orders to Felicity. Seriously, Team Arrow, change your locks, change your combination, change lair altogether. The only time I felt for her was in the scene with Quentin; it was horrible not telling him, but I sort of felt her hesitance to do so.
Also, I didn't mind Oliver comforting her: Sara was her sister, and it made sense he would do it after all.

I love that scene because it shows how different Oliver and Felicity are emotionally. Felicity wears her heart on her sleeve and Oliver is addicted to burying his feelings. I think it frustrates and confuses Felicity that Oliver can be stoic after Sara's death so her reaction made perfect sense to me. And SA's expression after Felicity accused him of having no feelings killed me—some excellent acting on his part.

This. I took it as her being very emotional and kind of fed-up with him for shutting himself out in a situation like that. Had it been another apocalyptic scenario where he just went on and on about how it's useless, he's going to die, she would have had her pom-poms ready. Anyway he heard what she said, which, progress.

Loved Tommy. I think I'm going to like Maseo. Oliver being the only one to throw dirt on the grave after Felicity was a nice touch in a complete idiotic situation, because i still don't know why they didn't tell anyone.

The Diglette is still going to be the Diglette to me, because naming her after Sara was a meh moment for me.

And finally, the "I don't want to die here" - "Then don't. (You idiot)" was the real highlight of the episode.

ETA: Thea and Malcolm, aka the awesomeness.

Edited October 16, 2014 by looptab

Jediknight · October 16, 2014

I hope that it turns out they are really hiding it because the show needs Sara not embalmed and traditionally buried because she's coming back. The arrows could've been coated with something, right? Right.

Well, she is loved by Nyssa, and Nyssa has been known to have access to something that could help..

ostentatious · October 16, 2014

Yeah, I'm just trying to avoid the Lazarus Pits, while also thinking of motive. I like it better if the plan was to kill then rez her rather than having Nyssa come along to do so. To be used against Oliver and Nyssa, maybe. IIRC the theory on Malcolm is that he had something (in his pendant?) that made him able to be resurrected. So, something like that, which is why I mentioned the arrows.

However, if Nyssa comes in to take the body because she wants to bring her back rather than having Sara pop up later and then have that revealed to us, i am fine with it.

Edited October 16, 2014 by thecatbastet

looptab · October 16, 2014

A.V. Club review:

http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/arrow-sara-210563

Laurel remains a character defined more by the stuff that happens to her than by how she reacts to it; when the show stretches, it can write a grieving scene for her that’s just as powerful as the subsequent scenes with Felicity, but that isn’t the show’s main priority. Indeed, it’s difficult to shake the sense that the show’s real priority here is to lay the groundwork for Laurel’s eventual assumption of the Black Canary mantle. Are her brutal interrogation methods and willingness to kill Simon Lacroix evidence of her inner turmoil, or are they just there to establish her vigilante bona fides? Maybe that’s a distinction without a difference, but the key takeaway here is that Laurel’s initial, character-based grief turns into something more plot-driven. Whereas Felicity is given the space to mourn Sara’s death like a real person would, Laurel has to react like she’s a character on a superhero show.

Exactly.

Edited October 16, 2014 by looptab

Gwen-Stacys · October 16, 2014

I'm really starting get a little...mehh with Arrow recently. I know that Felicity is a board favorite and most on here would love an entire episode of just her, but I thought they showed her too much on an episode about Sara Lance. I wish there had been more Ollie, Quintin, and Laurel as the people who are/were closest to Sara.

I liked that Laurel was more aggressive tonight and not taking any part of Olliver bossing her around. It is slowly building to who she is as BC, a partner to GA, not one of his flunkies/soldiers. (and the more interesting character between the two in the comics). Her being agressive and bossy made sense: her little sister was shot down in front of her. Most people aren't rational when loved ones die a violent death, much less so when it happens in front of them. (Think Batman and how fucked in the head he is) And if you're not familiar with guns, it isn't all that surprising that she didn't know it was loaded. (Should she have checked the clip? yes...but again she wasn't thinking straight.)

I'm excited for her taking over as BC and they are technically following her arc in the comics (although she takes over for her mother and not her sister...who doesn't exist in the comics.)

And Heck yes, I'm ready for Speedy to come home next week. (Missed you Thea and Malcom!). Interested to see if they'll go the comic route with Ras Al Ghul (as he's primarily involved Batman universe if I'm remembering correctly.) where

it isn't really Ras, but Shado tricking people into thinking she is Ras.

strikera0 · October 16, 2014

Arrow used to be one of the shows that could make me tear up rather easily, but this episode left me completely cold. Komodo was the red herring I thought he was and I kept getting distracted by all the plot holes (e.g. Laurel carrying Sara's body to the lair all on her own and then waiting around until Team Arrow shows up the next morning, nobody wondering about Quentin's absence at the funeral although Oliver told Laurel that she needs to tell him about Sara's death, etc.). Diggle naming the baby after Sara was a nice touch, but it would have been nice if we had actually seen some worthwhile interactions between them last season to make that believable. Also, the LOA don't target their own? Well, they could have fooled me last season. Anyways, this throwaway comment only strengthened my belief that they were behind Sara's death. The writers probably think that it makes the eventual reveal more shocking and it has inadvertently given Ra's another reason to get rid of her (not only did Sara break her oath, she also killed several active members of his cult).

- I may be exhausted but was some of what's her name acting was actually tolerable. and for a minute, and it pains me to say it, she and Oliver had some chemistry. meaning i could feel that he cares for her. but i will throw a fit rage if they will end together.

I thought so, too. The scene where Laurel talks about Sara's stuffed animal may have been KC's best work on the show, yet.

Edited October 16, 2014 by strikera0

ElectricBoogaloo · October 16, 2014

Oh my gawd, you guys (say it like on South Park). Katie Cassidy proved to me tonight that she is the worst actress EVER. I was feeling so sad as I watched Oliver and Felicity react to seeing Sara's body and then Laurel broke in with her wooden blank faced, "It's not fair, Ollie. We just got her back. It's not fair." Seriously? That was all the emotion she could muster?

Felicity's reaction was heartbreaking and realistic. Laurel's was...not.

I don't know which I hate more: the flashbacks themselves or Oliver's flashback wig.

I have started pretending that his terrible flashback wigs are a tribute to the ridiculously awesome flashback wigs they used on David Boreanaz on Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel. At least Oliver isn't speaking in an awful Irish accent.

Awwww, yay for seeing Tommy again!

apinknightmare · October 16, 2014

I know that Felicity is a board favorite and most on here would love an entire episode of just her, but I thought they showed her too much on an episode about Sara Lance. I wish there had been more Ollie, Quintin, and Laurel as the people who are/were closest to Sara.

This episode wasn't even about Sara - its sole purpose was as a giant To Do list to check off in order to appropriately set everyone off on their season-long journeys (STILL BITTER). That's why it kills me that AK tweeted that it was a love letter to Sara Lance - if that's what a love letter is to him...yikes. And I agree with fantique's assessment regarding Felicity: this is the first time a team death has directly affected her, and it's encouraging her to get out of the foundry, so I get why we saw more of her, although it didn't seem excess to me personally. And I think they used Oliver, Laurel and Felicity to show three ways of grieving: Oliver - keeping it bottled up inside and unhealthy, Laurel - going on a revenge-fueled journey, and Felicity - crying, being sad about it, and moving on. I do think that the writers rely too much on us connecting the dots about Team Arrow's outside-the-foundry friendship though, since I didn't feel like Diggle and Sara were close enough to warrant him naming his daughter after her. I do buy Felicity being so upset, but that's probably because I know there's at least one deleted scene in existence that shows her and Sara actually being friends/confidantes.

I liked that Laurel was more aggressive tonight and not taking any part of Olliver bossing her around. It is slowly building to who she is as BC, a partner to GA, not one of his flunkies/soldiers. (and the more interesting character between the two in the comics). Her being agressive and bossy made sense: her little sister was shot down in front of her. Most people aren't rational when loved ones die a violent death, much less so when it happens in front of them. (Think Batman and how fucked in the head he is) And if you're not familiar with guns, it isn't all that surprising that she didn't know it was loaded. (Should she have checked the clip? yes...but again she wasn't thinking straight.)

I'll handwave the gun thing as being grief-related, because Laurel's shown on two separate occasions (maybe more, I can't remember) that she knows how to handle a gun. And being a cop's daughter, there's no way that she doesn't know the difference between a loaded and unloaded firearm. You can't tell me Papa Lance didn't show both Laurel and Sara the ins and outs of responsible gun handling and ownership.

And because Oliver does tend to let his overprotective side show in dickish and controlling ways, I like the idea of Laurel not letting him boss her around, but I hated the execution of it. The writers at least prove to me that Oliver does know Laurel pretty well, because he knew she'd pull some dumb shit, and she did, and he was prepared for it. Hopefully the realization that she almost killed someone without thinking leads her to be more measured in her reactions ASAP, since that's not the first time she's blindly pulled a trigger. If I have to watch her for the long haul, I'd prefer not rolling my eyes for the duration of it, haha.

Edited October 16, 2014 by apinknightmare

Ceylon5 · October 16, 2014

I've decided that Oliver's excuse for not grieving is as dumb as his excuse for not dating Felicity, which I wouldn't have thought possible. He says he can't grieve because everyone needs him to lead, but since when do people need a leader in order to grieve? If he's talking about leading in terms of finding Sara's killer, then he's deluding himself - Felicity does all the heavy lifting when it comes to finding people and his input is neither needed nor helpful. [ETA - Even Laurel knows that when you have a lead, you take it to Felicity, not Oliver!] All Oliver does is hover about (sometimes making decidedly unhelpful remarks) waiting for her to find the person. He only comes into action when it's time to actually catch the person (whom Felicity found), and he doesn't need to lead to do that since he generally goes and does that on his own (with Felicity helping from the Lair).

Besides, the people who needed to grieve the most were Oliver and Laurel, and Laurel wanting revenge probably wasn't the most helpful outlet for her emotions - Oliver would have done her more of a favour grieving with her properly than feeding the blood-lust. I'm quite certain that Felicity and Diggle don't need Oliver's help either to grieve or to run a mission, and I hardly think he was referring to Roy, who didn't even know Sara very well. Besides, his leadership sucks. If he was the one making the decisions about what they did with Sara's body, etc. then I say let's put Felicity in charge. Her immediate reaction was to want to take Sara to the hospital - why is she the only person with normal thought processes? The whole hiding the body thing was just too weird for words.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Ceylon5

apinknightmare · October 16, 2014

Oh my gawd, you guys (say it like on South Park). Katie Cassidy proved to me tonight that she is the worst actress EVER. I was feeling so sad as I watched Oliver and Felicity react to seeing Sara's body and then Laurel broke in with her wooden blank faced, "It's not fair, Ollie. We just got her back. It's not fair." Seriously? That was all the emotion she could muster?

Felicity's reaction was heartbreaking and realistic. Laurel's was...not.

I didn't think she was altogether terrible, but there were scenes where she was good-ish, and scenes where she was absolutely not. I think she's a terrible crier, and not very good at expressing devastation or grief. I do buy her when she's angry though, and I didn't find it unbearable to watch, although I'm not interested in her vendetta or basically anything about her, but if I had to watch something I'd rather watch her boxing it out than burrowing into Oliver's chest for comfort every time she breaks down. I seriously felt awkward turtle every time that happened.

Gwen-Stacys · October 16, 2014

This episode wasn't even about Sara - its sole purpose was as a giant To Do list to check off in order to appropriately set everyone off on their season-long journeys (STILL BITTER). That's why it kills me that AK tweeted that it was a love letter to Sara Lance - if that's what a love letter is to him...yikes. And I agree with fantique's assessment regarding Felicity: this is the first time a team death has directly affected her, and it's encouraging her to get out of the foundry, so I get why we saw more of her, although it didn't seem excess to me personally. And I think they used Oliver, Laurel and Felicity to show three ways of grieving: Oliver - keeping it bottled up inside and unhealthy, Laurel - going on a revenge-fueled journey, and Felicity - crying, being sad about it, and moving on. I do think that the writers rely too much on us connecting the dots about Team Arrow's outside-the-foundry friendship though, since I didn't feel like Diggle and Sara were close enough to warrant him naming his daughter after her. I do buy Felicity being so upset, but that's probably because I know there's at least one deleted scene in existence that shows her and Sara actually being friends/confidantes.

Outside of Moira's death last season and Thea's reaction to it, I never thought Arrow was all that great at handling death scenes or how it affects people in the long run. Then again, this is a comic book show that draws a pretty decent male viewership rating and not like...The Vampire Diaries.

I felt that Felicity was more in awe of Sara than actually, IDK...friends with her? They were warm with each other (because they're warm characters when you think about it) but definitely like besties. That whole scene where she's in awe of how small Sara's hands are kind of drove that home for me.

And I actually liked that scene where Laurel is confused as to why she can only think about a stupid stuffed toy and how she needs to find it. I thought that was a very well done (and real) scene. When you loose people close to you, you focus on the most random things...and then after that, you focus on the unfairness off it (especially if it was a particularly violent death). But then again, YMMV. It was very in character how she saught an outlet for her grief instead of facing it. She did it with Tommy's death twice over (first her vendetta against the arrow, and when that was out, alcoholism). I think the point is that she isn't grieving. She, like Oliver and most comic book Superheros, is burying her grief in a cause. Does it suck? Yea, but thems the breaks.

I'll handwave the gun thing as being grief-related, because Laurel's shown on two separate occasions (maybe more, I can't remember) that she knows how to handle a gun. And being a cop's daughter, there's no way that she doesn't know the difference between a loaded and unloaded firearm. You can't tell me Papa Lance didn't show both Laurel and Sara the ins and outs of responsible gun handling and ownership.

IDK, I know two daughters of cops who know nothing about the ins and outs of guns and how they opperate. Being related to a cop =/= gun knowledge in the slightest. THey just know when dad brings his gun home from work , you do NOT touch it/you're never going to guess his safe combination. So that's not a handwave, it's a very realistic propability. If Laurel was a country girl that had grown up in a family that loved to hunt, then you'd have something. Either way, I always thought it took a professional (and someone really familiar with that certain gun) to be able to tell wether or not it's loaded.

And because Oliver does tend to let his overprotective side show in dickish and controlling ways, I like the idea of Laurel not letting him boss her around, but I hated the execution of it. The writers at least prove to me that Oliver does know Laurel pretty well, because he knew she'd pull some dumb shit, and she did, and he was prepared for it. Hopefully the realization that she almost killed someone without thinking leads her to be more measured in her reactions, since that's not the first time she's blindly pulled a trigger. If I have to watch her for the long haul, I'd prefer not rolling my eyes for the duration of it, haha.

I thought it worked. She hasn't been with the group for a long time and she (like Felicity) is an independent female who can make up her own mind. Laurel, as a lawyer, is someone used to being in the trenches and actively searching out answers; she's not going to let someone sideline her especially when it has to do with her sister. And especially since the last time her sister died, there was nothing she could do about. Now she can and she got answer sfaster than Ollie and co did.

I'm sure she'll get her training same as Thea.

apinknightmare · October 16, 2014

I've decided that Oliver's excuse for not grieving is as dumb as his excuse for not dating Felicity, which I wouldn't have thought possible. He says he can't grieve because everyone needs him to lead, but since when do people need a leader in order to grieve? If he's talking about leading in terms of finding Sara's killer, then he's deluding himself - Felicity does all the heavy lifting when it comes to finding people and his input is neither needed nor helpful. All Oliver does is hover about (sometimes making decidedly unhelpful remarks) waiting for her to find the person. He only comes into action when it's time to actually catch the person (whom Felicity found), and he doesn't need to lead to do that since he generally goes and does that on his own (with Felicity helping from the Lair).

Eh, I buy it. Oliver's a screwed-up dude. He's pushing the grief away by telling himself he needs to be a leader, that everyone needs to him to be strong - it's a coping mechanism so he doesn't have to deal with losing Sara again. It's one more person he's lost, one more person he perceives failing - it's a lot for a guy who's been through what he's been through over the past 7 years. What can he do to "fix" it? He can promise Laurel that he'll catch the person who did it - it's his way for atoning for Sara's death, since him taking her on the Gambit put her on her path to the LoA (it's not his fault she made the decisions she did, but he doesn't see it that way). He didn't put the arrows in her, but even though he's progressing with the self-blame game, I'm sure he feels responsible.

ElectricBoogaloo · October 16, 2014

Oliver's conversation with Felicity about how he can't grieve because everyone is looking at him to be the leader and one day he's going to die totally gave me Buffy vibes.

Laurel was so stupid when the guy in the hospital was shot. While I can admit that running to the window to try to see who did it is good in terms of getting a lead, it is IDIOTIC considering that someone just show an arrow through the window to kill someone and could probably fire off a second one at you.

On a shallow note, it drove me crazy that everyone kept pronouncing LaCroix as "la croy."

quarks · October 16, 2014

And if you're not familiar with guns, it isn't all that surprising that she didn't know it was loaded. (Should she have checked the clip? yes...but again she wasn't thinking straight.)

The script has established in more than one episode that Laurel is familiar with guns and knows how to use them, and that she was trained to use guns. It's not just that she's a cop's daughter. This isn't the first episode where she's used a gun. She's even killed someone on the show before, not that we've seen the consequences of this.

But the larger problem is that the show has been telling us for two years now that Laurel is going to Black Canary, and on her very first outing as Black Canary she was unable to use a gun or for that matter doing anything impressive/useful.

This is in direct contrast to everyone else on the show, who all either showed up on screen already scarily competent in the superhero/action stuff (Oliver, Sara, Shado, Slade, Roy, Nyssa, China White, Yao Fei), or related business (Felicity, Barry on the forensic side, Quentin as a detective, McKenna) or scarily competent in their first action appearance (Malcolm, who was able to beat up Oliver in the first episode where he appeared as the Dark Archer, Thea this episode.) For that matter, in their own respective fields, other non-action characters were shown to have their own competence within their fields: Moira, Isabel, Tommy (who was shown to be able to put together a major party with about 500 people in about a week), Sin (living on the streets). Even Helena who was criticized for lousy aim and hitting the wrong person in one hit was able to knock people out in her first episode, plus take down the correct people for the most part. The only two characters requiring more time to show us their competence were Walter, Lyla and Joanna - all very, very much supporting characters.

And this is the ongoing problem. Laurel is a major character who, I am told, will be the Black Canary. Great! Awesome! But to believe this, I need to see her doing heroic stuff. Or at least competent stuff. And yet, in two seasons, I can count Laurel's moments of success on one hand: she beat up the goons in the nightclub in the first season; she successfully bugged Blood in the second season; she shot Oliver's bow and knocked down a wall in the second season. I can count her heroic moments in the other hand: stopping Oliver from killing a bad guy in the first season; telling Sara they had to go back for the hostages in the second season; stopping Sara from killing Helena in the second season, hitting a superpowered goon attacking Oliver in the second season. In two of those cases she saved the bad guys.

And although I will give her credit for twice risking her life to help others - in Birds of Prey and Streets of Fire - in both cases, this led to her needing the help of others.

So it comes down to this: on its own, is the unloaded gun that big of a deal? Possibly not. But it contradicted earlier stuff in the show, and was yet another example of a long, long list of ongoing examples where Laurel has been shown to be incompetent. And you know, an incompetent hero, especially one played for laughs, can be great and awesome and really meaningful. But they aren't playing her for laughs, and they are playing her against competent people.

Ceylon5, yes, I was referring to Felicity's line to Ray. And it's really not that I have an issue with her wanting to live and wanting more out of life than just waiting to die in the Arrow Cave. That's in character. My issue is that her "more" is going back to QC and back to her role as IT girl - when last season, she specifically stated, in script, that believing in a different way had let her realize that she could be more than an IT girl. Great, awesome - and now her "more" is going right back to being an IT girl. That this involves working for someone who's been stalking her is only a bonus.

If they'd shown her doing something living, planting flowers, or going to look for a new group of friends, or whatever, then fine. But I don't like that her "more" is what last season she called "less." And as much as I loved the Oliver/Felicity interactions last episode, it has not escaped my attention that Oliver started the episode saying, correctly, that he was not ready to date, then trying to date Felicity anyway so that he could break things off with her so that they couldn't comfort each other this episode.

Edited October 16, 2014 by quarks

apinknightmare · October 16, 2014

IDK, I know two daughters of cops who know nothing about the ins and outs of guns and how they opperate. Being related to a cop =/= gun knowledge in the slightest. THey just know when dad brings his gun home from work , you do NOT touch it/you're never going to guess his safe combination. So that's not a handwave, it's a very realistic propability. If Laurel was a country girl that had grown up in a family that loved to hunt, then you'd have something. Either way, I always thought it took a professional (and someone really familiar with that certain gun) to be able to tell wether or not it's loaded.[\quote]

Yeah, I shouldn't have generalized. My mom and dad were both in law enforcement, and they taught me the ins and outs of gun safety and how to handle a gun (when I was old enough). I can't shoot worth a damn though, and don't have any desire to learn. Still, like I wrote - it's canon in this show that Laurel knows her way around a gun. Someone taught her how to shoot, and she has great aim, since she managed to kill a guy while at the height of her addiction. In more level-headed times, I think she'd have noticed, but I can handwave it.

And I agree with you that Laurel is independent and can make up her own mind - I just think the execution of that in this particular instance was terrible, since she made up her mind and ignored Oliver and did some stupid things, including almost killing a guy (and possibly getting herself killed). It was absolutely 100% idiotic that she went after Komodo on her own. It seems like she realized that though, which hopefully is the point. If an independent woman is going to ignore a man's advice, I'd rather she do it and prove him wrong - which Laurel absolutely did not.

blixie · October 16, 2014

I think the entire show is about him learning who to listen to, as he evolves into being able to trust his own judgment.

That's why I loved that he followed Felicity's lead on the Jewish Custom, at the grave. He's already trying to make amends for his deep enduring stupid, and he can't help but look to Felicity as his guiding light/touchstone.

I am clearly I'm not a real Olicity/Arrow fan since the very BEST part of the episode for me was the rusty wheels of realization turning for him at the end and admitting to Diggle he didn't want to die down there. The idea that I would want to watch 10 or more episodes of him being a idiot about it is just... NOPE. I lack empathy, just like good ole "horrible" person Katie Cassidy!

e says he can't grieve because everyone needs him to lead, but since when do people need a leader in order to grieve?

Seriously come down off the Cross Oliver, we need the wood.

Having said that I didn't really mind that, I think Ray's words to Felicity were also true of Oliver, he *was* grieving and he was coping the only way he knows how, by controlling the things he can control, finding Justice for his friend and ally and former lover. By projecting anger on to Felicity when he wasn't really angry *at* Felicity. I thought that was the episodes best work, it showed how everyone tunneled into their own shit when confronted with this loss.

For as awkward as Felicity's conversation with Oliver was in the Foundry, I didn't find her lack of "support" there really all that surprising, Felicity pre-Oliver Mind fuck in the Calm, Felicity pre Death of Sara, is not Felicity after both those incidents fell right upon each other. She has put up with a lot of ridiculous crap from Oliver and she did it for the Team and the Crusade (things she had to hear just last week were HIS alone). In her heightened emotional state, in *her* grief, I found her response pretty spot on. Iffily acted, but spot on.

Ceylon5 · October 16, 2014

My issue is that her "more" is going back to QC and back to her role as IT girl - when last season, she specifically stated, in script, that believing in a different way had let her realize that she could be more than an IT girl. Great, awesome - and now her "more" is going right back to being an IT girl. That this involves working for someone who's been stalking her is only a bonus.

If they'd shown her doing something living, planting flowers, or going to look for a new group of friends, or whatever, then fine. But I don't like that her "more" is what last season she called "less."

I confess, it never for a moment occurred to me that Ray wanted Felicity to be his IT girl. You don't spend $1.2 billion to get someone to come and work for you just to put them in some low-level run of the mill job, like the one she had originally at QC. He knows she's a hacker, since she told him as much when they first met (and then proceeded to hack all his devices), and to me it seems clear that he wants her specifically because he's aware that she's one-of-a-kind, and he needs her one-of-a-kind skills for something. I'm assuming she's thinking the same thing. So I'm hoping that whatever job he offers her will be just as fulfilling intellectually as her Arrow work, and will certainly be better paid (and probably better appreciated).

Plus, I think the "more" is not so much about the job itself (though it will be nice for her to work in a sphere that interests her, with people who understand what she's talking about), but about having a life outside of that blasted basement, getting to know people other than Team Arrow, and actually having a bit of a life outside of Oliver, who has rejected her.

quarks · October 16, 2014

I'm hoping the job turns to be more as well, but, Ray is hiring her for her IT skills. He was clear about that.

And I'm all for Felicity getting a life outside the Arrow Cave, but....she's going back to work for a company that a, was just taken over by a guy that pulled a dirty trick on her and pulled the company from her friend (granted, this means QC has a better chance of surviving, since Oliver Queen sucks as a CEO, but, still) and b, is the same company where she met Oliver and where she got pulled into his crusade. This isn't moving on. If she'd headed out to Star Labs, sure, or even another job in Starling City, sure. This? To me, not so much.

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