S05.E10: Abandon All Hope

[DittyDotDot]

Sam and Dean track down the Colt and go after Lucifer.

 

I think this is a really good solid episode, I just don't like re-watching it because it makes me so sad we loose Jo and Ellen--but it's really a very good episode.

 

I love Crowley's introduction and Mark Sheppard hits every line perfectly. I love Cass and Jo and Ellen drinking together. And I love the bits with Jo and Dean, there's so much that could have been in those scenes and what helps sell the kiss filled with regrets later. I also like Meg in this episode. She's the perfect Kool-Aid drinking cult member, IMO.

 

Sam and Dean are so very Sam and Dean--which is how I prefer them. The talk at the beginning about them sticking together; the way they are trying to save everyone but still get their chance at the Devil. Lots of good character stuff here. I especially love the stuff with Dean and Bobby over the radio. The way Bobby helps keep Dean head in the game is really some nice work from both Jim Beaver and Jensen.

 

What I think makes this episode work so well for me is there isn't one person barking orders and telling everyone what to do. Each member of the team steps up when needed and contributes. Bobby steps up and helps Dean hold it together; Jo steps up and makes them see the reality of the situation; Ellen makes sure the plan will work; and so on. I love it when Team Free Will is a team.

 

My only real complaint about the episode is Lucifer's monologuing. Sheesh, how many times do I have to hear the Devil's sad tale of woe. I get it, now shut the hell up!

 

The good to end on? I think this is one of my favorite "last words" exchanges ever:

Sam: Okay, last words?

Dean: I think I'm good.

Sam: Yeah, me too.

Dean: Here goes nothing.

 

Plus, I my itty-bitty heart grows three sizes when Dean tells the Devil to suck it.;)

Edited October 10, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

This would be a S5 favorite if it weren't for the deaths of Jo and Ellen.

[Julia]

This would be a S5 favorite if it weren't for the deaths of Jo and Ellen.

 

If you have to be written off, though, what a way to go. That was one of the most thoroughly badass death scenes ever.

[catrox14]

I thought it was great and awful. But they were so heroic. I just wish we had a couple of more episodes with them before they died.

 

I do wonder if it was because they thought the show was ending so they wrote them out before they got renewed.

[SueB]

Catrox... Yes. That's why they died. I don't think

Kripke had any intention of going beyond 5 and I think he felt it would never go on without him. They didn't figure out S6 until late January, well after this ep.

[DittyDotDot]

The official renewal for S6 wasn't until February 16, so I don't think they figured out anything for S6 until late February, IMO.

[SueB]

 

The official renewal for S6 wasn't until February 16, so I don't think they figured out anything for S6 until late February, IMO.

Thanks.  I think I was going off some interview about some conversation Kripke had with CW ...but, this is after the fact internet forensics on my part.  I'm a relative newbie.  Still, the point remains...Kripke was wrapping up his show in S5 until pretty late in the game in terms of script writing.

[DittyDotDot]

Oh no, I agree they died because he thought S5 was the end, didn't mean to imply I was disagreeing. I just ran across the official renewal date when I was looking for something else yesterday and thought I'd share.

Edited October 14, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Ubiquitous]

Well, dang, how are they going to stop Lucifer now? This should be interesting.

[Hanahope]

I knew after two fun episodes there would be a more serious and sad episode.  I went from the joy of seeing Mark Shepard (who I love from Leverage) to the sorrow of seeing Jo and Ellen die.  At least it was a badass way to go.  I love how Crowley wants the boys to win.

[bettername2come]

I think I've only seen this episode all the way through once. Crowley! I love Jo in the little black dress playing the damsel in distress and Sam getting stabby. And Crowley immediately calls them the Hardy Boys. I love Crowley killing the demons. It's such a great character introduction. His being smart, knowing Lucifer hates demons. "I'm in sales, dammit!" And his non-reaction to Sam attempting to kill him. Ellen/Cas drinking contest! This episode is such a major swing from the convention episode. Jo is so pretty when she rejects Dean. "Sweetheart, if this is our last night on earth, I'm gonna spend it with a little thing I call self-respect."  I liked Cas interacting with Jo and Ellen. I would've liked more of that. I like Cas and Lucifer's interaction. "You are not taking Sam Winchester." I can't remember him ever being protective of Sam like that before. I mean, he tried to jump across holy fire. I wish Jo and Meg had talked. C'mon, show, they have history! Jo attacked by hellhounds hurts! You can't just make me like the character after three years just to kill her off! Except, of course, on Supernatural. "We got problems." "It's okay, boy. That's why I'm here." Clever, heroic in death Jo. Sure, make me ship her and Dean now. Ellen, dying rather than live without Jo and the Kim Manners quote. Good explosion. Beautiful reaction shot of the boys. Nice try, Dean. At least you got to look badass. "You know I'd never hurt you." Liar! Poor people of Carthage. Nice acting by Jared. The horror. The defiance. Such a creepy scene with the demons dying. Oh, clever Cas distracting Meg and getting the bolts out before walking over her body. Those two should not have chemistry and yet. Not the picture!

[gonzosgirrl]

There are scenes throughout the years that hit me harder, but emotional kick in the guts for emotional kick in the guts, I think this is the saddest start-to-finish episode of the series. I'm not ashamed to say I ugly-cried.

Edited July 6, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

55 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There are scenes throughout the years that hit me harders, but emotional kick in the guts for emotional kick in the guts, I think this is the saddest start-to-finish episode of the series. I'm not ashamed to say I ugly-cried.

 

This moment right here ^^^ Breaks me more than any other moment in the episode. Because it was so unexpected to see Dean's bravado slip. He's quietly freaking out, and IMO is equal parts sad, scared and angry which are not things Dean typically shows at the same time with other people around him. Not too often anyway. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Well, I just bawled my eyes out watching that scene with Ellen and Jo.  Yes, it was a badass death, but I always liked both of them, so I was really sad to see them killed off the first time I watched this.  Ellen staying with her baby....I'm going to make myself start crying again just thinking of it.  And Jo got ripped to shreds because she stopped to help Dean - who otherwise would have been ripped to shreds.  

I just realized this time though how Bobby answers Dean's call when he really needs him, versus how John didn't.  And what he said was perfect: he didn't tell him what to do or "Boo-Hoo, Princess." - just helped him stay focused on what needed to be done next.  

I liked the Ellen and Cas drinking contest, Cas popping out of the car when Jo turned around, and him shoving Meg onto the fire so he could walk out over her, and then absconding with the boys right under Lucifer's nose.      

[Wayward Son]

I LOVE this episode overall and it definitely feature in my top 5 for the season if not top 3. I love the various interactions between the different members of the cast! I loved that we got to see them interacting with Sam and Dean, but each other. It's a shame they don't really make episodes that incorporate both the regular and the recurring like this anymore! The case of the week was awesome! Meg's use of hellhounds and the reference to Dean's history with them! Cas and Lucifer's talk, the epic death scene! It's an all around wonderful episode.

My only dislike was the bull crap Dean/Jo emotional manipulation. IMO Dean had always seen Jo as a little sister rather than a romantic interest, and Edlund retconned that aspect into the episode to heighten the loss for Dean. It wasn't needed! Grieving for his pseudo younger sister would have been enough :thumbsdown: 

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

The case of the week was awesome! Meg's use of hellhounds and the reference to Dean's history with them!

This episode is when I became convinced that Dean could see,  or at minimum hear or sense Hellhounds before they were close enough to be felt, like when Ellen felt the breath of Hellhound before she blew it and herself up. AFAIK, only those who made demon deals hear and/or sense them prior to them being mauled to death and their souls dragged to Hell. *

post this episode spoilers *

Spoiler

Of course that changed with the holy oil anointed glasses that let the wearer see them and later when controlled by some kind of demon dog whistle although I suppose Ketch couldn't see them , but STILL WTF SHOW!?) 

And in subsequent episodes Dean still seems to ping that Hellhounds are there at the same time as the victim or before and that happens not with just someone having made a crossroads deal.  Like when Dean knew where to aim to take out Ramsey.  But it's not 100% clear. 

 

There was a great subtle shift in Dean and he looked completely freaked out on a deep level, like maybe some PTSD at hearing the Hellhounds. He also knew exactly where to shoot. He wouldn't have taken a random shot with the Colt and waste the Ammo if he didn't know where to shoot. Maybe he took a guess but I think taking his reaction and demeanor Dean seemed to know they were there before Meg indicated it. I don't think he reasoned she would have hellhounds because at that time those were soley the possession of Crossroads Demons and Meg was not a Crossroads Demon.  She was a hit man more or less so I don't think he would have reason to expect her to have a Hellhound.  Hard to say exactly though.

 

Dean and Jo: 

I have a different read on Dean and Jo, in general and in this episode.

I never thought Dean saw her as a little sister. I mean if he did....well that's just creepy. LOL.

He was attracted to her and she to him in previous episodes. It was not an unrequited love situation either. IMO, Dean decided in s2, it was never gonna work because he was afraid of Ellen (LOL), and the revelation that John was possibly responsible for her father's death, that their whole dynamic would be tainted.  They certainly had a fondness and attraction for each other but I think they both knew it would be a terrible idea that would end badly.  Dean was having a stupid "end of the world, let's hook up" moment that I think even he knew was a bad idea and Jo shot that down.

IMO, Edlund was not writing for Dean's emotional trauma**.  IMO it was nothing other than a kiss before dying for the both of them and possibly Edlund thought he was giving Jo something she really always wanted despite shooting down Dean earlier. Jo made a choice that the night she might die she didn't want to sleep with Dean. Who knows. If she had survived maybe they would have hooked up but it would have been Jo's choice.

IMO, whatever stupid horndogging he did before didn't matter to his trauma. He didn't tell her he was in love with her when he propositioned her because he wasn't. Dean's trauma started the moment he was faced with Hellhounds again for the first time since being shredded by them (that was all over his face) and when he saw her ripped apart and pretty much knew she wasn't going to make it.  IMO the kiss was more just a sad acknowledgment by both Dean and Jo of "what might have been" in a minor way. But not in a "They really loved each other so much POOR DEAN!" At least not for me.  YMMV.

Also:

** 

Spoiler

 IMO if that kiss was all about Dean's trauma, there would have been some kind of follow up showing Dean mourning her death and being angsty about it but AFAIR, that didn't happen at all. There was little mention of either Ellen or Jo after that except I think a mention in  Sam Interrupted and then if they were in Heaven. And later on in s6. But there was not grand mourning and sorrow that ever saw from Dean about Jo that would IMO qualify as "Dean's pain". YMMV as always

[DeeDee79]

13 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I LOVE this episode overall and it definitely feature in my top 5 for the season if not top 3. I love the various interactions between the different members of the cast! I loved that we got to see them interacting with Sam and Dean, but each other. It's a shame they don't really make episodes that incorporate both the regular and the recurring like this anymore! The case of the week was awesome! Meg's use of hellhounds and the reference to Dean's history with them! Cas and Lucifer's talk, the epic death scene! It's an all around wonderful episode.

My only dislike was the bull crap Dean/Jo emotional manipulation. IMO Dean had always seen Jo as a little sister rather than a romantic interest, and Edlund retconned that aspect into the episode to heighten the loss for Dean. It wasn't needed! Grieving for his pseudo younger sister would have been enough :thumbsdown: 

I agree with you on the Dean/Jo. I believe that there was definitely an attraction on both sides initially but given that fact that their interactions never moved beyond platonic it wasn't necessary to throw that in there just to tug the heartstrings a little harder.  Also, I loved the moment when Pestilence is amused at the sight of a weakened angel and Cas surged up and cut off his ring finger.  Definitely a "hell yeah!" moment for me.

[DeeDee79]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO the kiss was more just a sad acknowledgment by both Dean and Jo of "what might have been" in a minor way. But not in a "They really loved each other so much POOR DEAN!"

I can understand this viewpoint. For me I felt that Jo & Ellen dying horribly and Sam & Dean uncertain if they were going to survive when they went up against Lucifer was plenty distressing. The moment that they shared was nice but it I felt like it was thrown in there just to up the angst.

[catrox14]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

I can understand this viewpoint. For me I felt that Jo & Ellen dying horribly and Sam & Dean uncertain if they were going to survive when they went up against Lucifer was plenty distressing. The moment that they shared was nice but it I felt like it was thrown in there just to up the angst.

To me this was just a little sad moment which for me didn't materially alter the massive angst that permeated the rest of the episode.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

To me this was just a little sad moment which for me didn't materially alter the massive angst that permeated the rest of the episode.

It actually made me cry a little harder and think "why did they make it hurt worse?!?!"

[catrox14]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

It actually made me cry a little harder and think "why did they make it hurt worse?!?!"

OHH see for me it didn't at all. I was mostly like "really?" and thought it was sad but it was all the rest that made me cry, and nothing to do with the kiss. LOL

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

OHH see for me it didn't at all. I was mostly like "really?" and thought it was sad but it was all the rest that made me cry, and nothing to do with the kiss. LOL

I was actually already crying when I realized that she was going to die and the tears just continued on for awhile after that :(

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I was actually already crying when I realized that she was going to die and the tears just continued on for awhile after that :(

Awwww :(.  I was more upset by Ellen's death than Jo's

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Awwww :(.  I was more upset by Ellen's death than Jo's

Me too actually but I think that it was the shock of knowing that Jo wasn't going to survive after the hellhound attack was what started things off for me. I was already braced for tragedy after Cas stated that it was their last night on earth and the mood went from hopeful to somber.

[catrox14]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

Me too actually but I think that it was the shock of knowing that Jo wasn't going to survive after the hellhound attack was what started things off for me. I was already braced for tragedy after Cas stated that it was their last night on earth and the mood went from hopeful to somber.

awww.. I understand. :(.

[Iju]

On 12/28/2015 at 3:48 PM, Ubiquitous said:

Well, dang, how are they going to stop Lucifer now? This should be interesting.

EXACTLY! it's freaking episode TEN and we have ellen and jo dying???? i'm so lost right now, how are people calling this season such a masterpiece of a season when i have no clue how it will end...:((

On 7/6/2017 at 7:14 PM, catrox14 said:

This moment right here ^^^ Breaks me more than any other moment in the episode. Because it was so unexpected to see Dean's bravado slip. He's quietly freaking out, and IMO is equal parts sad, scared and angry which are not things Dean typically shows at the same time with other people around him. Not too often anyway. 

what was even more tearful of a scene was my sister's note of how cold it was of bobby to hone in on his soldier side and crank it up to 1000. but as my mother explained he nor anyone could afford that right then. just like in LOTR3 when everyone was fighting at the castle and one of aragorn's friends said "They just lost a friend! Give them a moment!" and he replied "They can do that another time." that had to pick up their stuff and keep fighting. it may have seemed cold at the moment but it was needed. but dangit if i wasn't kinda pissed at bobby to use that on dean man. 

On 7/26/2017 at 10:18 AM, Wayward Son said:

My only dislike was the bull crap Dean/Jo emotional manipulation. IMO Dean had always seen Jo as a little sister rather than a romantic interest, and Edlund retconned that aspect into the episode to heighten the loss for Dean. It wasn't needed! Grieving for his pseudo younger sister would have been enough :thumbsdown: 

i mean, she was sort of like a little sister to dean, but i wouldn't go full on that phrase. i said before that he would have hit it and left if it wasn't for him being completely out of it when he met her, but because of everything that went between them they were just separated and didn't really have any chance for chemistry. the kiss may not have been the best to handle that, which is why i loved dean's forehead kiss so much more. in fact i would say that has more powerful meaning to it (romantic or not) because that's not as often as lip kissing. if someone kisses your forehead like that then i must really mean something, you know? ;) i'm just happy that dean and jo wasn't a thing because it just wouldn't fit...at all. no thanks. long relationship or not.

-------------

[this episode is when my sister declared cass as her favorite character ;)]

the one line of "You can get rid of the 6 decades of homophobia" said by that demon really threw me off. like...not wanting to kiss someone outside of your sexuality makes you a "phobe" of that sexuality? ummmm yeah okay lol >.>

i'm just so all up in my feelings and angry about ellen. she's such an awesome female character, the best ever in the whole show. why did they have to do that to me. jo i feel bad for as well but DANGIT WRITERS i'm so mad about ellen. noooooooooooooo.....

oh and i'm surprised no-one was noting lucifer's speech. it was beautifully and awfully written, from the performance of the vessel to the purely disgusting lines that made us exclaim in disgust. 

"What did you do? What did you do to this town?"
"Oh, I was very generous with this town. One demon for every able-bodied man."
"And the rest of them?"
"In there. I know, it's awful, but these horsemen are so demanding. So it was women and children first."

just UGH. how casually he said it, the twisting of that phrase, which is meant to save lives but instead means death...just UGH. literally got shivers.

and sam's face when dean got thrown away and knocked out. poor, poor sam. so small and helpless and worried and angry and everything.

father saw from the changing channels episode that the writing was getting a bit light because of how dark the show was and i gotta say he was probably right, because the other episodes to this was so fast i have viewer's whiplash, holy cow. this is some really deep mess.

RIP ELLEN AND JO. BUT ESPECIALLY ELLEN. I HAD JUST CALLED YOU MY FAVORITE CHARACTER EARLIER IN THE EPISODE. I LOVE YA ;_;

[Lunula]

Since I'm rewatching the entire series, I am picking up on so many things that were lost to me after so many seasons. I have mixed emotions about this episode.

First, I think this is the one of the few episodes that made me cry a bit. The moment when Ellen realized Jo had already died...the emotion in her voice, the relief of Jo not having to face the hellhounds or blow herself up - mixed with the agony of losing a child - it was too much for me. Samantha Ferris did a superb job in that scene. Couple that with losing two characters that I truly liked - it was emotional.

However, I am invariably perplexed at why they thought the Colt could kill Lucifer. They knew the gun could kill all but five things in creation (I think it was their grandfather that told them this? I can't recall) - how could no one have said, "Ya know, Lucifer has to be one of those five things." AND - we now know that Ruby was working to free Lucifer the entire time and she was the one who made the bullets to get the Colt working again - so why would she have done that if it could hurt Lucifer in the end? For me, it was completely illogical and I was shocked that they still went forward with the plan and no one brought any of this up. And to lose the only two remaining regular female characters to such a lousy plan completely ticks me off. 

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, Lunula said:

They knew the gun could kill all but five things in creation (I think it was their grandfather that told them this? I can't recall)

They did not know that at the time.  Lucifer is the one that told them about the 5 things exception. Before that they were working on the assumption that it killed everything.

 

3 hours ago, Lunula said:

AND - we now know that Ruby was working to free Lucifer the entire time and she was the one who made the bullets to get the Colt working again - so why would she have done that if it could hurt Lucifer in the end?

Because she probably would have figured out a way to steal it back had Bela not already stolen it for Lillith.  They already made the same argument about why she would have given them a gun that could kill her.  Same with Crowley.  Same with why didn't Lillith just destroy it when she got it.

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, Katy M said:

They did not know that at the time.  Lucifer is the one that told them about the 5 things exception. Before that they were working on the assumption that it killed ever

I forgot that Lucifer was that one that gave them that info. Plus, Cas had been helping them locate the Colt and while he thought that their plan was insane he didn't seem to know for certain that the Colt wouldn't kill Lucifer. At that point Cas and the angels in general seemed to know all so I assume that he would know if it couldn't kill Lucifer. Just spec on my part anyway.

[gonzosgirrl]

Pound for pound, I think this was the single saddest episode of the series. The storytelling was on point and everyone was on their game, performance wise. 

Spoiler

It would've been fun if Ellen and Bobby were a couple in the AU, like they were in the non-Titanic reality Balthazar created.

[Pondlass1]

Oh, the good ol' days when a death meant something and hit us in the gut.

What on earth would Dabb have done with this script?  I dread to think.

[MysteryGuest]

This episode makes me cry every time.  I hate it and love it at the same time.

[BlueSapphire]

I don’t know, I guess I may be the only one that feels kinda ambivalent about this episode.  Yes, the deaths are sad, but not surprising, given how many women have been fridged to advance the plot on this show.  But my main gripe is the lack of any real interaction between Ellen, Jo, and Sam before their deaths.  There’s always a shot of Dean emoting, but the writers seemed to not care if Sam even said two words, or if he showed any sort of feeling at all. Apparently Sam must be Super Stoic at all times.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, BlueSapphire said:

I don’t know, I guess I may be the only one that feels kinda ambivalent about this episode.  Yes, the deaths are sad, but not surprising, given how many women have been fridged to advance the plot on this show.  But my main gripe is the lack of any real interaction between Ellen, Jo, and Sam before their deaths.  There’s always a shot of Dean emoting, but the writers seemed to not care if Sam even said two words, or if he showed any sort of feeling at all. Apparently Sam must be Super Stoic at all times.

I don't think they every showed Sam as particularly close to Ellen or Jo. And I would bet that while Dean easily forgave Sam for the things that happened when he was possessed by Meg, it probably wasn't as easy for Jo, certainly not for Ellen. I imagine Sam probably felt pretty awkward around them as well. Changing or forgetting that in the moments before their death wouldn't be right either.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think they every showed Sam as particularly close to Ellen or Jo. And I would bet that while Dean easily forgave Sam for the things that happened when he was possessed by Meg, it probably wasn't as easy for Jo, certainly not for Ellen. I imagine Sam probably felt pretty awkward around them as well. Changing or forgetting that in the moments before their death wouldn't be right either.

I'll agree as far as Jo goes, but I never thought of Dean as any closer to Ellen than Sam was.

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'll agree as far as Jo goes, but I never thought of Dean as any closer to Ellen than Sam was.

I just think as Jo's mom, she might have had less warm feelings for Sam after the Meg event and Sam's role in everything.

Chances are, a mom would be less forgiving of someone who harmed their kid, regardless of the circumstances.

[MysteryGuest]

5 hours ago, BlueSapphire said:

But my main gripe is the lack of any real interaction between Ellen, Jo, and Sam before their deaths.

Interesting.  I never really saw it that way.  I think it was obvious that Sam was just as devastated by their loss as Dean was.  The only difference for me was the kiss between Dean and Jo at the end.

[pixelcat]

I have to say this episode has my favorite bit of demon lore in the entire show.  The opening scene showed me that a "crossroads deal" didn't have to be a dirt/gravel intersection out in the boonies, but it can also be below a freeway interchange in the middle of a city.  I still remember the first time I saw that, it was an "OMG why didn't I ever think of that" moment.

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, pixelcat said:

I have to say this episode has my favorite bit of demon lore in the entire show.  The opening scene showed me that a "crossroads deal" didn't have to be a dirt/gravel intersection out in the boonies, but it can also be below a freeway interchange in the middle of a city.  I still remember the first time I saw that, it was an "OMG why didn't I ever think of that" moment.

Another interesting thing about that scene was that Crowley's "client" said that he had been dealing with young female demon but Crowley was there to close the deal since the guy was someone of importance. We've only ever seen deals being made and finalized at the same time. It made me wonder why that particular deal was done differently.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

We've only ever seen deals being made and finalized at the same time. It made me wonder why that particular deal was done differently.

We did hear about the crossroads demon talking things up in "Crossroads Blues" though. If I remember correctly, according to the painter guy, he/she/it hung around the bar after making the deal with the painter and talked a good game. We can't be sure, but likely at least some of those deals may have been done later with the kiss to seal the deal done in private.

My guess is that because both Sam and Dean knew about crossroads demons, that the dealing and sealing was done at the same time - as with the guy from the bar Sam convinced in season 10 - because they knew about or were told how to summon the demon. My guess is that there may be a difference between people who know that they are dealing and so summon the demon at the crosroads - like Sam, Dean and the painter guy - and those who get talked up by a crossroads demon hanging around and drumming up business. After hearing a proposal and liking what they hear, the person may then have to actually go to a crossroads to "seal the deal." So that might have been what happened to the banker.

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

We did hear about the crossroads demon talking things up in "Crossroads Blues" though. If I remember correctly, according to the painter guy, he/she/it hung around the bar after making the deal with the painter and talked a good game. We can't be sure, but likely at least some of those deals may have been done later with the kiss to seal the deal done in private.

Yeah but he didn't say that the demon was negotiating new deals he said that it was going from person to person making new deals which I took to mean that they were being made on the spot. With Crowley and the banker it was obvious that he had previously spoken to someone at an earlier time before he finalized with Crowley.

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Another interesting thing about that scene was that Crowley's "client" said that he had been dealing with young female demon but Crowley was there to close the deal since the guy was someone of importance. We've only ever seen deals being made and finalized at the same time. It made me wonder why that particular deal was done differently.

Probably because he was a banker and was used to negotiating for better deals and not taking the first offer.  But, yeah, I think if you've gone to the trouble to research crossroads demons nd summon them, you're ready to make the deal.  Which also might mean the banker was approached instead of the other way around.  And again, being a businessman, he probably would have wanted to look into it a bit before saying yes.

[DeeDee79]

45 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Probably because he was a banker and was used to negotiating for better deals and not taking the first offer.  But, yeah, I think if you've gone to the trouble to research crossroads demons nd summon them, you're ready to make the deal.  Which also might mean the banker was approached instead of the other way around.  And again, being a businessman, he probably would have wanted to look into it a bit before saying yes.

I agree; this makes a lot of sense. 

[The Companion]

I was super bummed about Jo and Ellen. They were great characters. It was a hero's death but also really flipping sad. I hated seeing them get killed off. Particularly when there are so few women. It was nice to have female characters with some substance. 

I am intrigued by Crowley. I had come to a similar conclusion in the future episode. If the dream is the Earth without humans, demons are toast. That, of course, presumes the time travel episode was accurate and Satan was telling the truth. 

[gonzosgirrl]

For me, this is the single saddest start-to-finish episode of the series. I thought so the first time I saw it and I haven't changed my mind 10+ seasons later.

[DeeDee79]

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

For me, this is the single saddest start-to-finish episode of the series. I thought so the first time I saw it and I haven't changed my mind 10+ seasons later.

I would put this behind No Rest For the Wicked because we knew going in that there wouldn't be a happy ending for both episodes. Also, weren't Ellen and Jo killed off because the show was supposed to end at the end of season 5 and it was supposed to wrap up their story? It makes their deaths seem even more unnecessary. Plus Cas's matter of factness about how they wouldn't survive made it even more depressing.