Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

I hereby nominate Sansa for this week's "Useful as Tits on a Bull Award". I wasn't expecting her to fight or be up on the battlements when the AOTD came ripping through and the place for her was down in the crypts to help the other non-combatants. Nevermind the face that Jon had specifically ordered that every able-bodied person in Winterfell start weapons training before he left for Dragonstone because apparently that order didn't apply to Ms. Lady of Winterfell. Telling Arya that she had no idea how to use a dagger just had me rolling my eyes because... figures.

But while she was down in the crypts, she couldn't do the one thing that I would expect her to do. Be the Lady of Winterfell. You've got a bunch of terrified children, women and smallfolk down there who are listening to the sounds of the battle going on above and are probably shitting their pants. Reassuring them that everything would be all right (even if she's got no confidence that anyone was going to survive) was what she should have been doing. Not sitting with Tryion chatting about their marriage and making snide comments about Dany. And then hiding when the Stark dead came bursting out of the tombs instead of trying to get people to safety. She had one job down there, to take care of the people hidden away and she did bupkis. Warrior Queen my ass...

I thought the writing of Sansa seemed out of character.  I didn't expect her to ride into battle with the Dothraki or even fight wights inside the walls.  But, I did expect her to inspire and comfort the women and children (and dwarf and eunuchs) in the crypts.

She was annoyed Cersei with her courage and faith, in the Red Keep, during the Battle of the Blackwater, and she has grown a lot since then.   I would have expected her to be at least as brave as she was then.  

[merrick715]

3 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

And then hiding when the Stark dead came bursting out of the tombs instead of trying to get people to safety. She had one job down there, to take care of the people hidden away and she did bupkis. Warrior Queen my ass...

Who said Sansa's a Warrior Queen? She's not, and that's why I like her. Would it had been nice to see Sansa at least try to boost morale? Yes, but she didn't. For me, the difference between the battle of  Blackwater, and the battle of Winterfell is two-fold. Stannis never breached the Red Keep, but the Night King did. Stannis was driven by his desire to become king, while the Night King just wants to kill everyone in Westeros. Also, the people in the crypts actually hear people dying right above them. and they know that they are facing certain death if the battle is lost.

The dead bust through the crypt walls and chaos ensues, and then we see Tyrion and Sansa basically pull the Westerosi equivalent of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Luckily for everyone in the crypt, Arya kills The Night King.  I do wish Sansa or someone else would have taken some swords or spears down with them in the crypts. At the very least a sword a spear would have provided some much-needed distance between you and the skeleton that wants to kill you.

[Hana Chan]

5 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

Who said Sansa's a Warrior Queen?

Sophie certainly did in the pre-season PR. And made a huge deal about Sansa wearing armor (which ended up being just a leather corset that was no more "armor" than any of Cersei's affectations). 

The problem is that Sansa had responsibilities of leadership that she likes to claim and totally failed at here. Jon had ordered months ago that all physically able people start weapons training, but that apparently didn't apply to Sansa. She was going to be totally useless in the battle so going to the crypts to mind the non-combatants was the only thing she could reasonably do. But we didn't even see her do that. She didn't walk among her people and rally their spirits. She just sat there. She wasn't a leader of any kind when the people who really needed at least a spiritual boost relied on her. But I'm sure that we'll get more talk about how strong a leader she is and that the North would never have survived without her.

[Advance35]

Quote

Who said Sansa's a Warrior Queen? She's not, and that's why I like her. Would it had been nice to see Sansa at least try to boost morale? Yes, but she didn't. For me, the difference between the battle of  Blackwater, and the battle of Winterfell is two-fold. Stannis never breached the Red Keep, but the Night King did.

Everyone knew Sansa was up on the battlements and it was a bad sign when she came down to the crypts.  I thought that's why everyone looked even more glum.   Like damn, they've gotten so close she needed to be sent to safety.  This isn't going to end well is it? 

Battle with the living is one thing, how do you prepare for the dead to rise in your families crypt?  Who could keep their head on straight during something like that?  Whom, who wasn't trained as a warrior that is.

I thought the whole thing came off as in-character for Sansa, myself.  She was so terrified she didn't comport herself as she normally would.  And she saw first hand, the Dothraki flame swords go out.  She knew Arya sending her to the crypts mean't it was going  to get really bad.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

Though for me, this whole thing throws a lot of the leaks into question.  I can't see Tyrions rumored storyline playing out with the Sansa nuance mixed in.  I found the Tyrion/Sansa dynamic deliberately illustrated this episode.  I'd imagine fear of pending death heightens things but, Wow. 

Just the whole scene.  They wound up sequestered away together, underground, while the world is dying and falling around them.  The imagery and then the hand kiss. When I acknowledge chemistry, it doesn't mean I ship a couple but after those scenes, if I shipped a couple in GoT, it would probably be those two.  PD's face is so expressive.

My take is that I think the whole crypts sequence was contrived to get Tyrion and Sansa to an emotional place where they could have their moment. That was the point. Varys, Missandei, and Gilly were barely in the picture and had maybe five lines between them, and the women and children in the crypts weren't the focus, either. It wasn't about Sansa being a brave leader or showing how far she had come since Blackwater, as nice as that would have been, and it wasn't about Tyrion showing that his keen mind for strategy was intact after all, as nice as that would have been.

It was about pushing a self-protective, aloof, Targ-distrusting Sansa and an equally self-protective, ironic, Targ-affiliated Tyrion to a place where they could actually have a real moment of human connection without everything else that was normally in the way. Everything else in the crypts scene was just window dressing for that moment.

16 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Sophie certainly did in the pre-season PR. And made a huge deal about Sansa wearing armor (which ended up being just a leather corset that was no more "armor" than any of Cersei's affectations). 

The problem is that Sansa had responsibilities of leadership that she likes to claim and totally failed at here. Jon had ordered months ago that all physically able people start weapons training, but that apparently didn't apply to Sansa. She was going to be totally useless in the battle so going to the crypts to mind the non-combatants was the only thing she could reasonably do. But we didn't even see her do that. She didn't walk among her people and rally their spirits. She just sat there. She wasn't a leader of any kind when the people who really needed at least a spiritual boost relied on her. But I'm sure that we'll get more talk about how strong a leader she is and that the North would never have survived without her.

I did kind of laugh at this part of the episode:

Arya: Get down to the crypt.

Sansa: I'm not abandoning my people!

Arya: Take this weapon we both know you can't effectively wield as a reminder of how fucked we all are.

Sansa: ...Guess I am abandoning my people.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Eyes High

[merrick715]

5 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Everyone knew Sansa was up on the battlements and it was a bad sign when she came down to the crypts.  I thought that's why everyone looked even more glum.   Like damn, they've gotten so close she needed to be sent to safety.  This isn't going to end well is it? 

Battle with the living is one thing, how do you prepare for the dead to rise in your families crypt?  Who could keep their head on straight during something like that?  Whom, who wasn't trained as a warrior that is.

I'm still not sure what the original plan was for what Sansa is supposed to do. You would have thought she would be in the crypts with the rest of the noncombatants since Sansa isn't known for martial prowess, but there she was right standing beside Arya.  Arya didn't look surprised to see her, and you think she would be annoyed if Sansa was told to stay in the crypts. Episode two made a point of showing Dany ordering Tyrion to stay in the crypts, so what is the truth. 

Sophie did a great job of showing Sansa's absolute terror and then pulling herself back together again.

[Smad]

Jesus Christ. Considering how much they love their callbacks and how much of S7/8 has revolved around Sansa caring for the people, they couldn't give us a Blackwater repeat performance? No, of course not. Lets discard all that in favor of Tyrion, as usual. I'm so tired of this Tyrion shit (get over yourself Benioff). He will probably end up with everything in the end. King and the girl even though it makes no sense whatsoever. And can they please stop randomly throwing Sansa at guys? First Theon but hey they knew he'd die so Tyrion right the next episode. Sophie has chemistry with lots of the males...so what? Just stop and actually focus on the character of Sansa.

Tyrion in S3: I don't want to marry a child prisoner. I'm not going to touch my child prisoner bride.

Tyrion S8: Maybe I should have stayed married to my child prisoner bride.

And Sansa will probably agree because Tyrion is perfect in every way and the sun shines out of his ass.

FFS

[dirtypop90]

I honestly lol at the idea of rallying her people’s spirits when the freaking Night King is about to knock on the door. It makes sense for child Sansa to do so, but not her as a woman. The closest I’ve been to a situation like this one was being bunkered in a supposedly cat 5 proof building with other civilians when a cat 5 hurricane was blowing through. There were some local officials there and let me tell you they were not trying to rally us and lift spirits. They were nervous and scared shitless like everyone else. We just sat there in silence. Which is what humans do in those situations. 

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, ursula said:

Which goes back to my Doyle vs Watson issue and why it's pointless to analyze the characters for consistency because there isn't any. What is always more significant is why the writers choose to write what they write.

But when you lean too hard into the Doylist view you're just imagining the motivations of real people and situations we don't know anything about, which can be its own imaginary maze. I'm sure the writers themselves probably think there is consistency. 

11 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

I didn’t see Sansa be bitchy or mean spirited. She only stated that she and Tyrion wouldn’t work out because of what would be his divided loyalties, between Dany and Sansa. Sansa once Northern independence. Dany wants to rule over everyone.  Is that not the truth? Who was she being mean/bitchy to? 

9 hours ago, anamika said:

Yes, and Dany is out there doing everything to make sure her subjects survive. On the other hand Sansa expects Dany to use all her resources, her armies, her dragons, help them, then GTFO. She does not want the North to be Dany's subjects. She wants Dany to be Mother Theresa, help them all out, then go defeat Cersei - again for free - and then shut up and go away. Again, how is that fair?

Look at Cersei - she calls herself queen of the 7K and is sitting pretty with a large army. Dany has suffered huge losses defending the North. And you think Sansa is right in that the North owes Dany nothing?

But we can say the same for Dany in terms of fairness. Yes, Dany is absolutely out there fighting...and so is the North. The North owes Dany gratitude of course, but that doesn't mean they think it's fair she gets to rule over them. They would have lost without Dany but she would have lost without them. It's Dany who's asking for submission as a price for fighting, after all. The North's geographical position means the Night King attacks them first but if they lose Dany would be facing his army on her own further south, but the North isn't asking to rule over her kingdom in exchange for being the first line of defense. 

That, I thought, was Sansa's point with Tyrion, that Northern Independence was something she was always going to believe in and Tyrion would obviously have to be supporting Dany's desire to rule them. Sansa herself didn't prove herself on the battlefield like Dany did, but plenty of Northerners did and she was speaking for them.

3 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

But while she was down in the crypts, she couldn't do the one thing that I would expect her to do. Be the Lady of Winterfell. You've got a bunch of terrified children, women and smallfolk down there who are listening to the sounds of the battle going on above and are probably shitting their pants. Reassuring them that everything would be all right (even if she's got no confidence that anyone was going to survive) was what she should have been doing. Not sitting with Tryion chatting about their marriage and making snide comments about Dany. And then hiding when the Stark dead came bursting out of the tombs instead of trying to get people to safety. She had one job down there, to take care of the people hidden away and she did bupkis. Warrior Queen my ass...

This is just subjective, but I would have found it so much more annoying if she was leading them in sing-a-longs or saying they'd be fine instead of just quietly sitting there, which seemed to be what everyone wanted to do anyway. It's like she said to Tyrion, she thought the most heroic thing to do was to look the truth in the face rather than making themselves feel better, knowing that they were helpless. As Lady of Winterfell she was just with them, equally vulnerable. That made Tyrion see how much they'd come to be alike.

[Advance35]

*Gulp* I actually really enjoyed Sansa's scenes with Tyrion. 

I don't think she comes off passive with him in any way.  In terms of personality their characters tend to make for very interesting interaction.

The haughty, chilly, but good-hearted "princess" and he the rakish, sarcastic, rogue (who often follows his more heroic nature).

I don't know if the show will really try to make them happen, but the potential is DEFINITELY there.  It wouldn't be easy but a rapport between the two was easily re-established this episode.  The actor and actress have a palatable chemistry IMO.

It wouldn't be the worst ending as far as I'm concerned.  And it would also totally be like spitting on LF's grave.  LF HATED Tyrion.  I think he hated Tyrion even more when he was married to Sansa.

Quote

This is just subjective, but I would have found it so much more annoying if she was leading them in sing-a-longs or saying they'd be fine instead of just quietly sitting there, which seemed to be what everyone wanted to do anyway. It's like she said to Tyrion, she thought the most heroic thing to do was to look the truth in the face rather than making themselves feel better, knowing that they were helpless. As Lady of Winterfell she was just with them, equally vulnerable. That made Tyrion see how much they'd come to be alike.

LOL, because I'm picturing, Sansa as we know her now, trying to lead a sing-a-long. LMAO.

[Hana Chan]

16 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's like she said to Tyrion, she thought the most heroic thing to do was to look the truth in the face rather than making themselves feel better, knowing that they were helpless. As Lady of Winterfell she was just with them, equally vulnerable.

But this wasn't about Sansa's "heroism". This is about her obligation to the people in the crypts with her who are technically her subjects (and her responsibility). She's got young children down there. She doesn't need to do a sing-a-long, but checking up on them and making sure that everyone was okay and ready to bug out if they need to was her job. She's not just another scared woman hiding downstairs. She's supposed to be in charge.

This is the kind of stuff that I just can't buy. We get beaten over the head about how smart Sansa is, that she's become this strong badass woman who's in control now. But then I'm supposed to excuse when she wants to hide under the pillows and not stand up for her people? As LOW, she should be the one placing herself in danger to protect her people. Not hiding behind a crypt and hoping that the zombies kill everyone else first. She's always got to be protected by others, but I'm expected to see her as being so amazing a leader? I just can't swallow that.

I had a lot more respect for Dany, who when she was stuck on the ground and surrounded by wights that she didn't just depend on Jorah to protect her. She has no training but picked up a sword and fought back. It just makes Sansa look more and more like a poser. 

[dirtypop90]

^ Sansa has never claimed to be anything other than a Lady. So I'm not sure what she poses as. She is a Lady and acts like a Lady. I'm lost at the accusations of Sansa pretending to be something else.

Edited April 29, 2019 by dirtypop90

[ursula]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But when you lean too hard into the Doylist view you're just imagining the motivations of real people and situations we don't know anything about, which can be its own imaginary maze. I'm sure the writers themselves probably think there is consistency. 

Well then I still have to fall back on the Doylist conclusion that the writers are all collectively suffering from selective amnesia.

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

They would have lost without Dany but she would have lost without them.

If anything, this episode showed that Dany showing Jon the door in Dragonstone the moment he appeared would have been the smart thing to do. She'd still have 3 dragons and her armies intact. The Night King won't have had an ice dragon and the Wall would probably still be standing. Valyrian steel - that Arya got from Bran - was what killed the Night King, not dragonglass or dragon fire. 

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I would have found it so much more annoying if she was leading them in sing-a-longs or saying they'd be fine instead of just quietly sitting there,

And what is wrong with sing-alongs? During Blackwater, Cersei bailed on her noble ladies and little Sansa, woman-ed up and comforted the women in Maegor's Fast. She gave them fake platitudes and got Moon Boy to make them laugh.  She was 13, and a prisoner of war and she acted like the Queen.

The whole point of Sansa is that her strengths are in her compassion, in her courtesy as a Lady, as opposed to tomboy Arya and wild, "mad" Dany. This was supposed to be her Blackwater moment for her to show all that strength. They could have had her give a speech. They could have shown her interacting with the mothers and crying children. 

Varys who isn't technically from Westeros was shown body-blocking a group of children. Missandei had earlier been shown trying to be sweet to some racist Northern brats.

In the show, Sansa, full grown, and Lady of Winterfell can only snark then cower amongst her own people.

Show!Sansa has become Cersei - short-sighted and entitled. 

[Hana Chan]

3 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

^ Sansa has never claimed to be anything other than a Lady. So I'm not sure what she poses as. She is a Lady and acts like a Lady. I'm lost at the accusations of Sansa pretending to be something else.

She poses as a ruler. She's fine when it comes to administration, like counting the grains of barley in the stores and figuring out what kind of supplies are needed to last a certain period of time. And she likes to sit at the center of the big table and make pronouncements. But being being Lord or Lady of a holding almost means protecting and caring for the people that they rule over. It means being ready to defend her people from attack and protecting them from harm. 

Sansa's skill set would be fine as the wife of someone who's willing to take on those martial duties. Even so, the wives of nobles were expected to be of use when the keep is under attack. Showing some basic concern for the people that she was trapped in the crypt with and keep them from panicking and being ready to move if the worst happened was her job. Not just hiding to protect herself and letting them be ripped apart by the wights when she was given a fucking weapon. That is the bare minimum of what I would expect from her. 

[ursula]

8 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Sansa has never claimed to be anything other than a Lady. So I'm not sure what she poses as. She is a Lady and acts like a Lady.

She didn't act like a Lady during the siege is the whole point. Heck, she didn't even act like a Sansa. D & D have got this character so wrong that it's ridiculous at this point. 

[dirtypop90]

7 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

She poses as a ruler. She's fine when it comes to administration, like counting the grains of barley in the stores and figuring out what kind of supplies are needed to last a certain period of time. And she likes to sit at the center of the big table and make pronouncements. But being being Lord or Lady of a holding almost means protecting and caring for the people that they rule over. It means being ready to defend her people from attack and protecting them from harm. 

Sansa's skill set would be fine as the wife of someone who's willing to take on those martial duties. Even so, the wives of nobles were expected to be of use when the keep is under attack. Showing some basic concern for the people that she was trapped in the crypt with and keep them from panicking and being ready to move if the worst happened was her job. Not just hiding to protect herself and letting them be ripped apart by the wights when she was given a fucking weapon. That is the bare minimum of what I would expect from her. 

Part of protecting and caring is planning, which is what Sansa does, i.e. telling them to keep the gates open for those coming and making sure there is enough food. I do not think picking up a sword or throwing yourself in front of the enemy falls under the requirement of a Lady. Nor do I think it would be smart. Her other siblings are fighting. She supposed to be the only safe one from her house. Her parents and older brother are already dead. Does the North no good for Sansa to put herself in harm's way. Indeed, the North wants Lady Sansa alive.

Edited April 29, 2019 by dirtypop90

[sistermagpie]

24 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

But this wasn't about Sansa's "heroism". This is about her obligation to the people in the crypts with her who are technically her subjects (and her responsibility). She's got young children down there. She doesn't need to do a sing-a-long, but checking up on them and making sure that everyone was okay and ready to bug out if they need to was her job. She's not just another scared woman hiding downstairs. She's supposed to be in charge.

I just honestly don't see any obligation she wasn't fulfilling there. There was no plan to bug out. There was nowhere to go. There was nothing to check up on. Nobody was panicking. Imo, she was seeing all that clearly there. This was the last resort: hiding. 

Once the zombies start crawling out of their crypts the obviously more heroic thing to do would be to throw herself in front of everyone else and be one of the few that died just on principle, but up until then I don't think anybody was looking to her for anything. (Not that I think anybody down in the crypt was looking to her for that either, but it is the standard thing to do in these fictional situations, of course.)

13 minutes ago, ursula said:

And what is wrong with sing-alongs? During Blackwater, Cersei bailed on her noble ladies and little Sansa, woman-ed up and comforted the women in Maegor's Fast. She gave them fake platitudes and got Moon Boy to make them laugh.  She was 13, and a prisoner of war and she acted like the Queen.

Like I said, this is subjective, but I didn't see anybody in that crypt wanting a sing-a-long or fake platitudes. There was a battle going on in the house above their heads and I think they just wanted to sit in silence and listen to anything they could hear and not draw any attention to themselves or keep them from hearing anything they might hear. Nobody up top had the comfort of platitudes and the people down below didn't seem to want different for themselves. I thought she read the room correctly. If they were dying, she was dying with them whether she wound up sticking somebody with the pointy end of her dagger as she went down or not. 

This Sansa, imo, was more of a realist than she was at 13. She's still here because she endured rather than fought, exactly.

Edited April 29, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Hana Chan]

As I said before, I don't expect Sansa to stand on the battlements since she couldn't deign to learn the basics of fighting (even after ordered to by Jon). But she's in the crypts with other non-combatents and did nothing to help them get through this ordeal. She barely acknowledged that anyone else was in the crypts other than Tyrion and these are her subjects. As LOW, she has a responsibility to them and doesn't get the luxury of huddling in the shadows because she's scared. She had a job there, to comfort and support the women and children who were sent there for safety and to do whatever she might need to in order to ensure that they got out alive, even at the cost of her own well-being. Arya didn't give her the dragonglass dagger just so Sansa could have another decoration to hang on her dress. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out which end is the pointy one.

That is the difference between leaders like Jon and Dany, who don't see ruling as just having people bow and scrape and do whatever you tell them. It means taking the responsibility of protecting those that are sworn to you. Dany put herself in great danger when she saw that her Dothraki were being decimated and that her Unsullied were next. Sansa is very good at lording over people, but she's all airs and surface. She gets by now on the blood and sacrifice of others, just as Cersei does.

[ursula]

6 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

That is the difference between leaders like Jon and Dany, who don't see ruling as just having people bow and scrape and do whatever you tell them. It means taking the responsibility of protecting those that are sworn to you. Dany put herself in great danger when she saw that her Dothraki were being decimated and that her Unsullied were next. Sansa is very good at lording over people, but she's all airs and surface. She gets by now on the blood and sacrifice of others, just as Cersei does.

Well said. 

And to be clear, I think this iteration of Sansa is clearly a show invention. I know the books have Sansa take on more cynical attributes, I believe that she is still a fundamentally good person, and still a fundamentally strong person who would have risen to the occasion. Sansa was stepping up in Blackwater even though she knew that Ilyn had orders to kill her if KL fell. 

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think they just wanted to sit in silence and listen to anything they could hear and not draw any attention to themselves or keep them from hearing anything they might hear.

Which might have made sense if the show didn't have Sansa take the time to complain about how her shotgun marriage to a Lannister was ruined by Dany.

She literally only falls silent and contemplative after Missandei shuts her up. 

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

This Sansa, imo, was more of a realist than she was at 13. She's still here because she endured rather than fought, exactly.

Fair enough but endurance doesn't make one a leader. Varys was a non-combatant (and technically not even Westerosi, right?) but he still did more to protect the Northern children than Sansa, their Lady and leader, did. 

[dirtypop90]

^ How did Varys do more when Sansa literally invited them in to safety and has been keeping them fed? It seems like people are ignoring battle preparations and focusing on Sansa was sitting during the actual battle when preparation is just as important. 

Also, everyone was sitting quietly, which is ideal for this sort of situation, when they are supposed to be hiding. There was no one she needed to comfort. 

[Katsullivan]

5 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

I hereby nominate Sansa for this week's "Useful as Tits on a Bull Award"

Seconded.

5 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Nevermind the face that Jon had specifically ordered that every able-bodied person in Winterfell start weapons training before he left for Dragonstone because apparently that order didn't apply to Ms. Lady of Winterfell.

Jon knows nothing. It is known.

2 hours ago, Smad said:

Considering how much they love their callbacks and how much of S7/8 has revolved around Sansa caring for the people, they couldn't give us a Blackwater repeat performance? No, of course not. Lets discard all that in favor of Tyrion, as usual.

The writing on this show is shitty to women and shoe-horning them into tired stereotypes? Color me shocked. 

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

instead of just quietly sitting there, which seemed to be what everyone wanted to do anyway.

Well if by everyone wanting to sit quietly, you mean Missandei when she finally snapped and delivered the smackdown that shut Sansa up, then I guess you're right. 

5 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

There was no one she needed to comfort. 

There were literally crying children in the crypt but ok.

5 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Sansa literally invited them in to safety and has been keeping them fed?

😂😂😂😂😂

[screamin]

36 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

That is the difference between leaders like Jon and Dany, who don't see ruling as just having people bow and scrape and do whatever you tell them. It means taking the responsibility of protecting those that are sworn to you. Dany put herself in great danger when she saw that her Dothraki were being decimated and that her Unsullied were next. Sansa is very good at lording over people, but she's all airs and surface. She gets by now on the blood and sacrifice of others, just as Cersei does.

If that were the case, she wouldn't have been the first one to take out her dagger while she and Tyrion were hiding behind the tomb. Tyrion's the one with actual battle experience. But he followed her lead when they made the wordless decision that they were going to go out fighting for the people still alive in the tomb instead of cowering where they were till they were found at last.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Well if by everyone wanting to sit quietly, you mean Missandei when she finally snapped and delivered the smackdown that shut Sansa up, then I guess you're right. 

You can sit quietly and also have a short conversation with your ex-husband you never really reconciled with. I'm sure plenty of people were having little exchanges with the person next to them. 

But yes, Sansa did shut up rather than reply to Missandei by starting a fight with her about whether the Northerners upstairs dying deserved to rule themselves or not. Compared to a sing-a-long I would call this sitting quietly.

9 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

There were literally crying children in the crypt but ok.

Now I think we're talking about a different kind of character than Sansa's shown to be. The angelic princess who can comfort children crying when their mothers or guardians can't. Sansa definitely fails at being that character. She's not her. When I said comfort I meant the crypt in general needing a leader doing something of that nature, not a person kissing any stray toddler tears away.

The scene just didn't read to me Sansa being shown as failing anything by not being that. Everything seemed fine but tense down in the crypt until the dead started rising out of their crypts. Then they were in a death trap with no escape and Sansa didn't melt down but nor did she save anyone. I didn't see the scene as showing Sansa being particularly praiseworthy or proving herself a great leader, I just also didn't see it showing her to be any sort of failure. She had no special skills in this situation at all, said so and proved it.

[Smad]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

I don't know if the show will really try to make them happen, but the potential is DEFINITELY there.  It wouldn't be easy but a rapport between the two was easily re-established this episode.  The actor and actress have a palatable chemistry IMO.

Again, Sophie has chemistry with pretty much every male on this show. After all, the Jonsa nonsense got traction in S6 because Kit and Sophie had chemistry. After last episode there were a ton of people who went 'Theon and Sansa? Damn.' because Sophie and Alfie have chemistry. Just because she has chemistry with PD too doesn't mean anything to me because she has that with plenty of men.

The problem is that this nonsense isn't part of Sansa's story anymore. Thanks to the idiotic S5 plot, Sansa and any sort of romantic or arranged marriage plot got extinguished. At most this should be a 'what if' once the final credits roll after this Season. And it's totally unbelievable (even in this episode) because Tyrion had no romantic feelings for her (so the whole staying married to her comment was BS) and Sansa never had romantic feelings for Tyrion.

Sansa's continued praise of Tyrion is just as forced and stupid as everyone else who continues to ride the Tyrion love train. So he didn't rape her, big whoop. That's common human decency. Of course he comes off as the best when your only other comparisons are Joffrey and Ramsey. Are those two really the bar we want to apply here? That's ridiculous. And lets not forget that other than not raping her the only other thing he did that Sansa is aware of is interrupting her public beating in the KL court. But did he ever help her escape her imprisonment in KL? No. So this continued praise of 'good man Tyrion' is nothing but Benioff using his self-insert character to heap praise upon himself. If Sansa ends up with Tyrion it's not because it makes sense (it doesn't), it's because Tyrion (Benioff) is the best thing ever. And considering they already had Sansa raped in part as punishment for her not swooning over him and not falling into bed with him, this is also skeevy as all get out.

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

It wouldn't be the worst ending as far as I'm concerned.  And it would also totally be like spitting on LF's grave.  LF HATED Tyrion.  I think he hated Tyrion even more when he was married to Sansa.

This wasn't part of the show. I don't remember any scene in which LF expressed any massive hate for Tyrion. And having her with Tyrion just to spite LF when he's already dead? That's completely nonsensical and a terrible reason to make these two endgame.

36 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

The writing on this show is shitty to women and shoe-horning them into tired stereotypes? Color me shocked.

Your sarcasm is strong. And I wholeheartedly approve.

[Minneapple]

4 minutes ago, Smad said:

Again, Sophie has chemistry with pretty much every male on this show. After all, the Jonsa nonsense got traction in S6 because Kit and Sophie had chemistry. After last episode there were a ton of people who went 'Theon and Sansa? Damn.' because Sophie and Alfie have chemistry. Just because she has chemistry with PD too doesn't mean anything to me because she has that with plenty of men.

She even has chemistry with the females. She has more chemistry with Emilia than Emilia does with Kit. I don't think Sophie is the greatest actress, but she definitely has a kind of charisma and part of the shame of the crappy writing is that it doesn't do justice to how she interacts with every character.

[Hana Chan]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But yes, Sansa did shut up rather than reply to Missandei by starting a fight with her about whether the Northerners upstairs dying deserved to rule themselves or not. Compared to a sing-a-long I would call this sitting quietly.

It wasn't just Northerners dying. Dany arrived with 10,000 Dothraki blood riders who had no interest in the well being of the North. Their loyalty was to Dany alone and they were utterly decimated. Her Unsullied, again loyal only to Dany, lost huge numbers to allow the Northern fighters to retreat to Winterfell when everything went to shit. They were fighting alongside the Northern forces for no other reason than Dany decided that defending the North was her responsibility too.

Again, the question keeps coming up - what responsibility does Sansa have for her people? She can't fight (and that is by her choice since she never could be bothered to learn to defend herself, let alone anyone else), but she's got a bunch of mothers, old folk and small children (too young to fight themselves) in the crypts with her. Walking among them to show that their Lady is not fearful, checking their well-being and yes, speaking to children to help calm their fear is what Sansa should have been doing. While people were outside fighting and dying to protect them, it was very very least she should be expected.  

And yes, when the dead began bursting out of the crypts, I would expect her to put herself between them and the children (at the very least). She had a weapon that she didn't use at all (except to show it to Tyrion for...? An attempt at suicide if they weren't saved?). 

I don't buy the double-standard that female characters shouldn't be held to the same standard as male ones. If Sansa wants to rule, then I'm going to hold her to the same standards that I'll hold Jon or Dany or anyone else. When she fails to do what every other ruler there is doing, I'll call her on it. After awhile, she can't keep falling back on the "she's just a lady" excuse. Not with the stakes being what they were.

[dirtypop90]

10 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

I don't buy the double-standard that female characters shouldn't be held to the same standard as male ones. If Sansa wants to rule, then I'm going to hold her to the same standards that I'll hold Jon or Dany or anyone else. When she fails to do what every other ruler there is doing, I'll call her on it. After awhile, she can't keep falling back on the "she's just a lady" excuse. Not with the stakes being what they were.

Again, where does the notion that Sansa wants to rule come from? She wanted her brother to remain KOTN and not bend the knee to Dany and the north to be independent. I don't know how this equals that she wants to rule.

Edited April 29, 2019 by dirtypop90
typo

[screamin]

2 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

And yes, when the dead began bursting out of the crypts, I would expect her to put herself between them and the children (at the very least). She had a weapon that she didn't use at all (except to show it to Tyrion for...? An attempt at suicide if they weren't saved?). 

If she took out the dagger only to kill herself if the walking dead got her before rescue came, she and Tyrion wouldn't have come out from behind the tomb, weapons in hand - they would've stayed right where they were until either the walking dead found them or rescue came. They both got up and left their hiding place.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Hana Chan said:

It wasn't just Northerners dying. Dany arrived with 10,000 Dothraki blood riders who had no interest in the well being of the North. Their loyalty was to Dany alone and they were utterly decimated. Her Unsullied, again loyal only to Dany, lost huge numbers to allow the Northern fighters to retreat to Winterfell when everything went to shit. They were fighting alongside the Northern forces for no other reason than Dany decided that defending the North was her responsibility too.

But I'm not denying any of that. Both Dany's people and Northerners are dying. The NK is coming to conquer both the north and the south--he goes through the north first, but if he gets through them, he's coming for everywhere else Dany wants to also rule. Missendei is correct to point out that the problem of Northern independence wouldn't exist if Dany wasn't there to help save the north, but it also wouldn't exist if Dany wasn't claiming sovereignty over it. Iow, Sansa's not the only one keeping politics in mind here.

Dany wants to rule the Northerners. The Northerners do not want to rule Dany's people. I think they can be grateful without swearing fealty to Dany. (Even if other lands weren't also in danger I don't think it would be unreasonable for them to want to be able to accept help without being colonized.)

7 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

I don't buy the double-standard that female characters shouldn't be held to the same standard as male ones. If Sansa wants to rule, then I'm going to hold her to the same standards that I'll hold Jon or Dany or anyone else.

I'm not using the scene to say whether she ought to rule or not. Jon was elected KitN and Sansa wasn't. I just see this as a scene where Sansa didn't get in anyone's way or cause a distraction to anybody in the battle. As a Stark her goal seems to be independence for the north rather than making herself queen of it. 

[Smad]

21 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Again, where does the notion that Sansa wants to rule come from? She wanted her brother to remain KOTN and not bed the knee to Dany and the north to be independent. I don't know how this equals that she wants to rule.

I don't get it either but I think it's a symptom of the conflicting messages we get. There is what's on screen and then what writers/actors say off camera which often contradicts what's actually on screen. People tend to pick which suits their view of a character better.

IMO it's not about Sansa ruling or her being power hungry. It's all about agency and safety. If she were power hungry she wouldn't have immediately told Bran he's LoW without making a fuss about it. She would have taken the Lords up on naming her Queen in S7. She was fine with Jon being King, she just wanted him to be smart about it and not repeat Ned's and Robb's mistakes.

Jon being King or Bran being LoW would sit just fine with her because she knows she is safe. They won't just ship her off to a new Ramsey for political gain. However, with a non-Stark ruler she is that person's subject to do with what they want. If Dany for example needed to make an alliance with another Kingdom to get their support, she could easily use Sansa as a bargaining chip. And Sansa knows this because she has suffered under that very system (so has Dany but desperate times and all).

But that's just my headcanon because God knows this show doesn't know what it wants to say, especially with Sansa's character.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Smad

[ursula]

23 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Again, where does the notion that Sansa wants to rule come from? She wanted her brother to remain KOTN and not bend the knee to Dany and the north to be independent. I don't know how this equals that she wants to rule.

OK, let's get this straight:

Sansa is a ruler. She is the Lady of Winterfell. Being a ruler is the job description as the head of House Stark and lord of the capital seat of the North.

She might not rule or want to rule the North (arguable) but she rules Winterfell. Which is why, both times we've seen a King (or Queen) arrive in Winterfell, the Lord of Winterfell says "Winterfell is yours" because they're ceding the power they ordinarily have to a higher authority.

Edited April 29, 2019 by ursula

[dirtypop90]

15 minutes ago, ursula said:

Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell. Being a ruler is her job description as the head of House Stark and lord of the capital of the North.

She might not rule or want to rule the North but she rules Winterfell. Which is why, both times we've seen a King (or Queen) arrive in Winterfell, the Lord of Winterfell says "Winterfell is yours" because they're ceding the power they ordinarily have to a higher authority.

Well the poster I was responding to said, "if Sansa wants to rule," meaning she's not ruling yet.  That is what I was responding to.  I was asking why she thought Sansa wanted to rule.

Jon was the KOTN and stayed at Winterfell and ruled over it. He left it to Sansa when he went to meet Dany. He's back now. I'm assuming he's now Warden of the North and still lives at Winterfell, and is therefore still in charge. I've never seen Sansa as ranking over Jon at Winterfell.  Might be a different story if he didn't live there, but he does for now. So I do not think she rules Winterfell. She was left temporarily in charge while Jon was gone.

Edited April 29, 2019 by dirtypop90

[dirtypop90]

8 minutes ago, Smad said:

I don't get it either but I think it's a symptom of the conflicting messages we get. There is what's on screen and then what writers/actors say off camera which often contradicts what's actually on screen. People tend to pick which suits their view of a character better.

IMO it's not about Sansa ruling or her being power hungry. It's all about agency and safety. If she were power hungry she wouldn't have immediately told Bran he's LoW without making a fuss about it. She would have taken the Lords up on naming her Queen in S7. She was fine with Jon being King, she just wanted him to be smart about it and not repeat Ned's and Robb's mistakes.

Jon being King or Bran being LoW would sit just fine with her because she knows she is safe. They won't just ship her off to a new Ramsey for political gain. However, with a non-Stark ruler she is that person's subject to do with what they want. If Dany for example needed to make an alliance with another Kingdom to get their support, she could easily use Sansa as a bargaining chip. And Sansa knows this because she has suffered under that very system (so has Dany but desperate times and all).

But that's just my headcanon because God knows this show doesn't know what it wants to say, especially with Sansa's character.

We are on the same page. I always thought this was about agency and safety for Sansa, not a desire to rule over people. Sansa doesn't know Dany. She doesn't know what she is or isn't capable of.  She doesn't know whether she would be safe under her rule or if she would have any agency, and therefore doesn't want to be under her rule.

It makes sense to me given what we've actually seen on screen.  I don't see her as this entitled, power hungry person, and I don't think the writing supports that conclusion. You think Sansa would fight against any of her siblings for the right to rule the north or winterfell? No, I don't see it.

[ursula]

1 minute ago, dirtypop90 said:

I'm assuming he's now Warden of the North and still lives at Winterfel, and is therefore still in charge. I've never seen Sansa as ranking over Jon at Winterfell. 

Well the whole Jon is King in the North and Sansa is Lady of Winterfell at the same time never made sense which is where the writing on this show, as always, fails at basic world-building coherency. 

But technically, this is how it's supposed to work: Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell. When Winterfell hosts a higher ranking authority (Jon as King in the North, Dany as Queen of Seven Kingdoms) then Sansa cedes ("Winterfell-is-yours-your-grace") authority of the castle to them to do as they please. So the visiting King seats in big chair, hears judgment, makes laws and can (in theory) command Winterfell's armies. (In theory).

Now the nonsensical-ness of it all is that the title of Lord of Winterfell is what the King in the North becomes when he's no longer the King in the North (Torrhen Stark, and now Jon Snow). So now that he's no longer KiTN, Jon is the Lord of Winterfell, and Sansa, as his sister, is Lady Sansa Stark, not Lady Stark of Winterfell.

But as I said - D & D are basically writing their own plot-incoherent fanfiction at this point.  

She'd still be, as the highest-ranking lady of the castle, have her responsibilities and her field of influence - and this would definitely include taking charge of women, children and the old and infirm during castle sieges.

So yeah, no matter how you look at it, Sansa - or rather the writing for Sansa - dropped the ball. 

[dirtypop90]

Winterfell doesn't host Jon though. He lives there. I don't see how Sansa could rule Winterfell with Jon living there.

And I missed when they outlined the Lady of Winterfell's responsibilities.  Sansa had wrapped up her responsibilities, whatever they were, by the start of the episode because she was with Arya watching the start of battle, and the women and children had already been moved to "safety."

Edited April 29, 2019 by dirtypop90

[Eyes High]

56 minutes ago, Smad said:

If Sansa ends up with Tyrion it's not because it makes sense (it doesn't), it's because Tyrion (Benioff) is the best thing ever.

If Sansa and Tyrion end up together, it won't be because of Benioff, it will be because that's what happens in the books. All the major character endings will be the same, and I assume that extends to romantic pairings as well. So if there's no way that Tyrion and Sansa end up together in the books, then there's nothing to worry about.

The writing for Tyrion and Sansa's relationship in the show has always been very shippy, and 8x03 poured gasoline on it and struck a match. Was it Benioff wankery, like Cogman building up Theon and Sansa's non-book bond, or was it something else?

Edited April 29, 2019 by Eyes High

[ursula]

5 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Winterfell doesn't host Jon though. He lives there. I don't see how Sansa could rule Winterfell with Jon living there.

Which is what I mean about Sansa keeping the title of Lady of Winterfell while Jon is King in the North is nonsensical. 

[Smad]

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

If Sansa and Tyrion end up together, it won't be because of Benioff, it will be because that's what happens in the books. All the major character endings will be the same, and I assume that extends to romantic pairings as well. So if there's no way that Tyrion and Sansa end up together in the books, then there's nothing to worry about.

I don't buy it. Is Arya going to end up killing the NK in the books too? Oh wait, there is no NK in the books. Is Berics purpose to protect Arya so she can kill the NK? Oh wait, he's long dead in the books. Will Cersei be the final 'boss' everyone fights? Not a chance. Is Tyrion a complete and utter saint and the smartest person ever in the books? Hell no. I just see 'the books and show will end roughly the same way' as nothing but PR hype.

16 minutes ago, ursula said:

Now the nonsensical-ness of it all is that the title of Lord of Winterfell is what the King in the North becomes when he's no longer the King in the North (Torrhen Stark, and now Jon Snow). So now that he's no longer KiTN, Jon is the Lord of Winterfell, and Sansa, as his sister, is Lady Sansa Stark, not Lady Stark of Winterfell.

The thing is Jon is not LoW. Never was as HBO's own float chart laid out for us. WF was Sansa's birthright as a Stark. Jon was a King with no other titles, lands or castle due to being a bastard. So he had his seat there because that's his 'familiy's' seat and his sister is head of said seat. Now he's a WotN with no other titles, lands or castle.

[ursula]

17 minutes ago, Smad said:

The thing is Jon is not LoW. Never was as HBO's own float chart laid out for us. WF was Sansa's birthright as a Stark. Jon was a King with no other titles, lands or castle due to being a bastard. So he had his seat there because that's his 'familiy's' seat and his sister is head of said seat. Now he's a WotN with no other titles, lands or castle.

Like I said... nonsensical. 

[dirtypop90]

24 minutes ago, ursula said:

Like I said... nonsensical. 

Yea. I'm with you on this point. 

It's why I always viewed Sansa's title as just a title or maybe Jon's King/Warden title was/is. Who knows. Nothing makes sense.

Edited April 29, 2019 by dirtypop90

[MadameKillerB]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

If she took out the dagger only to kill herself if the walking dead got her before rescue came, she and Tyrion wouldn't have come out from behind the tomb, weapons in hand - they would've stayed right where they were until either the walking dead found them or rescue came. They both got up and left their hiding place.

This. They both had a moment to acknowledge that they would die by fighting back and they did it anyway or were prepared to do that before all the dead collapsed. I call that bravery.

[Smad]

27 minutes ago, ursula said:

Like I said... nonsensical. 

That's D&D for you. It's not like we ever had feudalism in our world so that they could draw from that as to how it works. And it's not like this show is based on a book series that makes it's rules of the world the characters live in very clear.

[ShellsandCheese]

7 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

^ Sansa has never claimed to be anything other than a Lady. So I'm not sure what she poses as. She is a Lady and acts like a Lady. I'm lost at the accusations of Sansa pretending to be something else.

Even a lady knows when it’s time to go into survival mode. I mean her mother was Catelyn Stark! She grabbed the handle of a Valaryan steel blade to protect one son and went down swinging during the Red Wedding. Sansa has never exhibited any of that kind of chutzpah. 

[GraceK]

10 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Even a lady knows when it’s time to go into survival mode. I mean her mother was Catelyn Stark! She grabbed the handle of a Valaryan steel blade to protect one son and went down swinging during the Red Wedding. Sansa has never exhibited any of that kind of chutzpah. 

The only time she did I think was when she was gonna push Joffrey off that Bridge in season 1. I loved that moment . Then again, that was GRRM Sansa.  Although feeding Ramsey to his dogs was pretty awesome 😎 

[Advance35]

Quote

We are on the same page. I always thought this was about agency and safety for Sansa, not a desire to rule over people. Sansa doesn't know Dany. She doesn't know what she is or isn't capable of.  She doesn't know whether she would be safe under her rule or if she would have any agency, and therefore doesn't want to be under her rule.

This is what I think is at the root of Sansa's loathing of Dany.

Prior to Dany's arrival, in Sansa's eyes, on the power totem, the only person she took a backseat to was Jon.   She felt a level of safety.   With Dany in the picture, she's down quite a few rungs on the power latter.  

If Sansa has power, she is confident she can never be treated the way she was in Kings Landing or the way she was by Ramsay.  Anyone who would strip her of that power, even symbolically/passively (like Dany having the North bend the knee) will earn Sansa's seething hate.  Is it rational? Depends on your perspective.

Sansa has been in Kings Landing and w/ Littlefinger the last few years.  She wasn't with or around people that believed or practiced genuine cooperation and team work.  There was nothing altruistic about anyone she interacted with (the closest to anyone being genuine might have been Tyrion).  Allies are just another kind of enemy (Lannister and The Tyrells), Marriage is a tool for subjugation, power grabs and sabotage (Lannisters/Baratheons, Lannister/Tyrells, Tully/Frey, Baelish/Arryn, Stark/Bolton) so she sneers at motivations of love and genuine trust.  Who wouldn't in her shoes.

I even question if there might be some jealousy on Sansa's part.  Dany has dragons, Unsullied and Dothraki (or did), Dany is probably someone whom appears invulnerable, someone that can't be hurt and doesn't know fear.  I imagine that's something Sansa covets for herself.  Those feelings and the power she believes could/would/will give them to her.

I also think it's why Tyrion tends to go easy on her, in terms of verbal sparring.  He got to know her well in Season 2.  Saw her change during the course of Season 3.  He assumes her hardness comes from. pain more than hunger for power.

[sistermagpie]

I was watching the ep again and kept thinking about Sansa comforting people in the crypt scenes and it really seems out of place, especially given her own line about how everyone should be looking the truth in the face. I feel like they'd all feel shitty about trying to cheer themselves up even. There's no children crying, it's silent as a...well, a tomb. The only time a baby starts crying is little Sam at his mother's side in response to the dead breaking out, at which point everybody screams and runs everywhere and comfort is off the table, as is escape. Sansa and Tyrion are then seen hiding before Sansa takes out her knife and they seem to decide to leave their hiding place and run out with their knives.

Edited April 30, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Snowball II]

I actually think Sansa held up under the circumstances remarkably well.  If it were me, I would be screaming like a little girl, and pissing myself.

[Jextella]

 

 

 

 

3

On 4/25/2016 at 10:00 PM, Advance35 said:

I think she's awesome for so many reasons but I think one aspect of her arc that appeals to me, is all of the eclectic characters she gets to play off of.  From an interaction standpoint is there another character in this story as well mingled as Sansa.   She's pretty much had a notable interaction with every major character with the exception of Jaimie and the Martells.

Her scenes in the season premier were equal parts riveting and exhausting.   When she and Theon took refuge under that fallen tree and he kept repeating Sansa, before pulling her to him and trying to help her keep warm.  AA and ST did wonderful work in their scenes.   When she closed her eyes, she just seemed so tired in pretty much every way.   Exhaustion, disbelief, fear, sadness at what her life had come to.   The whole thing was surprisingly touching.

A wonderfully layered character.

I agree.  Sansa has seen experienced more people and more situations that the other characters by miles.   And other than Theon, of those still standing, she's endured the most and deepest forms of pain.

She's come out the other side stronger with her head on straight.   And, she's learned from those who tormented her about how the play the game. 

I'm a huge Sansa fan.  While I wish we could see a little more of her emotions, her reserved nature makes scenes like those with Theon and Tyrion more powerful and meaningful.  She's worthy of ruling Winterfell - or the 7 Kingdoms for that matter.

Arya is a ninja assassin, which I love, but Sansa is a diplomat and a leader.  

[Constantinople]

Fun fact: Sansa is High Valyrian for Hitler

[merrick715]

They filmed a scene where Tyrion and Sansa did kill a wright, but they cut it. Someone on twitter posted the six-second clip.  You can see the full video here. The Sansa and Tyrion part is about nineteen minutes in.