Jump to content
Forums forums
PRIMETIMER

DittyDotDot

S05.E03: Free To Be You And Me

Recommended Posts

Dean and Sam have gone their separate ways, and each faces deadly challenges.

 

I so want to like this episode, I really do. I think Sam and Dean needed the separation, but I also think it needed to be more important...if that makes any sense. I think they went the wrong way with Sam in S5. Instead of him getting back in the game because he wanted to and because he made a mess and wants to clean it up he seems forced back into the life because destiny has decreed it and no matter what he does he can't escape this life. This should have been the episode he wants to get back in the game, not the one that forces him into it. I also never understood why they didn't have Sam go hang with Bobby for a couple of episodes. Not actively hunting, but getting drawn into some of these hunts and helping a little. Plus it would have been a good way to bring Bobby's handicap forward some too. I realize Jim Beaver wasn't supposed to be in every episode, but I don't think he actually had to be for this to have worked.

 

And they didn't do any better with Dean's side of things. It should have been the episode where Dean hunts entirely alone and finds pleasure in it, but also realizes that he prefers it with Sam. I do like Cass and Dean working together though, I just wish it was a better case and all. I also hate the part of Dean trying to get Cass laid and it seems like it was just "funny" filler and completely out of tone for the episode. And, trapping Raphael would have been interesting if there was something actually useful learned by it, but in the end it all just feels pointless.

 

I just realized that Jeremy Carver wrote this episode and it got me to thinking. I usually think of him as a decent writer, but if you look at the list of episodes he wrote he's very mixed in hits and misses. For every A Very Supernatural Christmas, Mystery Spot and Changing Channels he also has a Sin City and Family Remains and Point Of No Return. Oops, sorry for the aside...

 

The positive to end on? I really liked the actress that played Lindsey (Sam's barmaid friend) and Cass The Awkward FBI Guy is still some of the funniest stuff ever.

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

I so want to like this episode, I really do. I think Sam and Dean needed the separation, but I also think it needed to be more important...if that makes any sense. I think they went the wrong way with Sam in S5. Instead of him getting back in the game because he wanted to and because he made a mess and wants to clean it up he seems forced back into the life because destiny has decreed it and no matter what he does he can't escape this life. This should have been the episode he wants to get back in the game, not the one that forces him into it.

 

[snip]

 

I just realized that Jeremy Carver wrote this episode and it got me to thinking. I usually think of him as a decent writer, but if you look at the list of episodes he wrote he's very mixed in hits and misses. For every A Very Supernatural Christmas, Mystery Spot and Changing Channels he also has a Sin City and Family Remains and Point Of No Return. Oops, sorry for the aside...

 

The positive to end on? I really liked the actress that played Lindsey (Sam's barmaid friend) and Cass The Awkward FBI Guy is still some of the funniest stuff ever.

 

For me, I never really felt from this episode that Sam felt "forced" into getting back into hunting. I very much thought that Sam did want to correct the mess he made and actually didn't want to leave hunting at all (which is why I still didn't get "Chris Angel..." : it was so contradictory from so many episodes that showed Sam wanting to hunt.) I thought the reason Sam left hunting in this episode was because he felt he couldn't properly hunt because of his blood addiction. This wasn't a "vacation" for Sam, and in my opinion his conversation with Bobby where he reported the goings on and wanted Bobby to send some hunters showed that he felt awful that he felt that he couldn't be the one to take care of it. To me Sam very much looked like he wanted to help and wanted to be there.

 

I think that because Sam saw that he could resist the demon blood that the hunters tried to force on him later on in this episode, this was part of the reason why he felt that he could go back to hunting and fight his destiny. I never got from this episode that Sam had wanted to give up on fixing the mess he made. I thought he felt that he couldn't adequately hunt at the beginning of this episode - leftover from what happened the episode before - and that if he hunted, his judgement might be off and put people (including Dean) or the mission at risk. It perhaps might not have been as impactful as it could have been, but I thought Sam resisting the blood was very important and gave him the confidence he needed that once Lucifer came along, Sam decided he could maybe go back to fighting his destiny and fixing his mess. Of course his likely being pissed off helped some, but calling Dean was because he felt like he needed Dean still a bit to help keep him (Sam) on the right path... so he had some confidence, but understandably got shaken by Lucifer. For me that seemed pretty understandable and didn't mean that Sam didn't want to fix things, but that his confidence had just been shaken a bit.

 

I also thought that the scenes with Sam and Lucifer as Jess showed Sam's shaken confidence - and were also suitably creepy. I thought they were very well done, and they were some of my favorite parts of the episode.

 

Also :: small voice :: I love "Point of No Return" and consider it one of Carver's great episodes. I agree about the others on your not so good list though..

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

For me, I never really felt from this episode that Sam felt "forced" into getting back into hunting. I very much thought that Sam did want to correct the mess he made and actually didn't want to leave hunting at all (which is why I still didn't get "Chris Angel..." : it was so contradictory from so many episodes that showed Sam wanting to hunt.) I thought the reason Sam left hunting in this episode was because he felt he couldn't properly hunt because of his blood addiction. This wasn't a "vacation" for Sam, and in my opinion his conversation with Bobby where he reported the goings on and wanted Bobby to send some hunters showed that he felt awful that he felt that he couldn't be the one to take care of it. To me Sam very much looked like he wanted to help and wanted to be there.

 

I didn't mean to imply that it was a vacation for Sam and/or that there wasn't an element of him wanting to fix what he broke, but this episode keeps telling Sam that he can't escape or run away, destiny will find him no matter what. And, Sam keeps trying to avert destiny until he learns he's Lucifer's vessel, that's when he decides to get back in it. I just think it would have been nice to see Sam actually finding the life for himself rather than being told he can't escape the life. That's what's missing in this episode for me, Sam doesn't really choose to get back in it as much as no matter where he goes and what he does the life still finds him so he gives in and submits to destiny in the end. In fact, through the whole first half of the season Sam is continually saying things like "because we have no choice", "maybe there's no stopping it" and such. I think he believed they wouldn't be able to stop anything, but he wasn't going to run and hide anymore.

 

I understand what they were doing, Sam was the voice for destiny and Dean was the voice for free will and slowly they have them switch positions--as is this show's general want. Mostly, it works for me, on Dean's side of things anyway. I just feel Sam's side of things is lacking to make the switch in Point Of No Return really pay off properly. It's another one of those things on this show that I intellectually get, but feel like it needed a little more care and feeding to make me get invested.

Edited by DittyDotDot
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I understand what they were doing, Sam was the voice for destiny and Dean was the voice for free will and slowly they have them switch positions--as is this show's general want. Mostly, it works for me, on Dean's side of things anyway. I just feel Sam's side of things is lacking to make the switch in Point Of No Return really pay off properly. It's another one of those things on this show that I intellectually get, but feel like it needed a little more care and feeding to make me get invested.

I'll say more when we get to it, but while I love "Point of No Return" so very much, I do still understand this assessment.

Share this post


Link to post

I didn't mean to imply that it was a vacation for Sam and/or that there wasn't an element of him wanting to fix what he broke, but this episode keeps telling Sam that he can't escape or run away, destiny will find him no matter what. And, Sam keeps trying to avert destiny until he learns he's Lucifer's vessel, that's when he decides to get back in it. I just think it would have been nice to see Sam actually finding the life for himself rather than being told he can't escape the life. That's what's missing in this episode for me, Sam doesn't really choose to get back in it as much as no matter where he goes and what he does the life still finds him so he gives in and submits to destiny in the end. In fact, through the whole first half of the season Sam is continually saying things like "because we have no choice", "maybe there's no stopping it" and such. I think he believed they wouldn't be able to stop anything, but he wasn't going to run and hide anymore.

 

I understand what they were doing, Sam was the voice for destiny and Dean was the voice for free will and slowly they have them switch positions--as is this show's general want. Mostly, it works for me, on Dean's side of things anyway. I just feel Sam's side of things is lacking to make the switch in Point Of No Return really pay off properly. It's another one of those things on this show that I intellectually get, but feel like it needed a little more care and feeding to make me get invested.

 

I can see this also, but I think for me they made Sam complicated enough that I could maybe accept both?

 

For example, in "It's a Terrible Life," Sam "Wesson" did seem to be implying and talking about destiny, but at the same time, he was much more excited about going off to "make a difference" and fulfilling that "destiny" than he was about staying in his normal life. Unfortunately for real Sam, his destiny isn't just wrapped up in potentially making a difference, it's got darker stuff wrapped up in it and it's the darker stuff in his destiny that Sam wants to escape/fight. So I can see why there is a conflict for Sam. He can still want to hunt and save people/make a difference, but at the same time there's all this messy dark stuff screwing with that, and he can't trust himself not to get wrapped up in the dark stuff in the process of hunting.

 

But I also think that even from the beginning of season 5 even when Sam doubted himself, he usually had faith in Dean and Dean's ability to fight their destiny. Which is one of the reasons I think Sam wanted to be back in it with Dean specifically. I'll have to think more on how this relates to "Point of No Return" and consider that as I rewatch this time... see if I can see where Sam starts to gain his confidence even as Dean begins to lose it. I do think however, that his ability to reject the demon blood in this episode was a start to that confidence and that perhaps the Lucifer news was just a bit of a momentary setback.

Share this post


Link to post

This one is kind of hit-or-miss, imo.

 

Lindsey was way too pushy for my taste. And when she finally got Sam to go to dinner with her, despite him having Bad News written all over him, she goes on about how nobody can do anything that's so bad that he can't be forgiven? First of all, that's not true. Even Dean isn't necessarily going to forgive him for the Ruby/Apocalypse/Demon-Blood stuff. When it comes to anyone else, who doesn't even love him, he doesn't have a shot at being forgiven! People do things that other people find unforgivable all the time. Second of all, who is she to start lecturing some guy she doesn't even know about stuff like that? It sounded like she was about to pull out a Jesus tract. Meh. Lindsey and the bad acting from the hunter friends kind of ruined Sam's storyline for me.

 

Also, that the other hunters were sort of right and Sam really should have helped them kill those demons. He really was being selfish and weak by letting them twist in the wind while he got an extra shift in at the bar or whatever, imo. And I guess the show was saying that was the case, too, since if alcoholic Lindsey can work at a bar, then demon-blood-addicted (lol) Sam can hunt, I guess.

 

Anyway, when it comes to Dean's SL -- I was hating it basically the whole time, because Dean is so tense and it makes me tense just to watch him, and the humor was just not working for me at all. The trip to the brothel didn't work for me, and neither did the little jokes along the way, like Dean calling Rafael a ninja turtle and Cas calling him a little bitch.

 

BUT! Then Dean got me with that speech to himself (and ostensibly to Cas) in the car, when he says that he hasn't had fun with Sam for years because he's been so worried about him, and that he's been chained to his family, but he's happy now that he's alone. Oh, Dean. I know that feeling. That's the feeling of getting to take off a mask that's really constrictive and uncomfortable, and that you've been having to wear for a really long time. Getting to have AND SHOW! your own emotions instead of being completely focused on someone else and everything -- your emotions, actions, decisions, everything -- just being a reaction to them and what they need/want/believe. Getting to be a person instead of just being someone else's...tool? appendage? Idk. But man. Sam is going to fall into even deeper shit and Dean's going to hear about it and it's going to TEAR HIM UP because he's going to have to go back to help him, out of love and out of fear for Sam, but also because in this case the fate of the world literally depends on it (!!!!!), and that mask is going to have to get pushed back onto his face. Sucks.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Also, that the other hunters were sort of right and Sam really should have helped them kill those demons. He really was being selfish and weak by letting them twist in the wind while he got an extra shift in at the bar or whatever, imo. And I guess the show was saying that was the case, too, since if alcoholic Lindsey can work at a bar, then demon-blood-addicted (lol) Sam can hunt, I guess.

 

I can sort of see this, but Sam had learned from the War case that he wasn't ready yet, and he couldn't trust himself. So in a way, if Sam knew - or thought - he wasn't ready, would it really have been responsible for him to go into that potential temptation? Aaand, just what he would also need - demons recognizing him and spilling all sorts of things in front of other hunters. Or just as bad - since he could claim the demon was lying - what if the hunters saw him tempted by the blood or even worse, be tempted enough to drink some? Yeah it's selfish that he didn't want them to find out, but I didn't blame him - it's one thing if Dean sees him slip, because Dean may be mad at him, but he at least already knows and is his brother, but hunters he doesn't know all that well? It's not like Sam hasn't had hunters after him before for even less reason. Sam knows the risk of working with hunters he doesn't know so well.

Share this post


Link to post

I can sort of see this, but Sam had learned from the War case that he wasn't ready yet, and he couldn't trust himself. So in a way, if Sam knew - or thought - he wasn't ready, would it really have been responsible for him to go into that potential temptation? Aaand, just what he would also need - demons recognizing him and spilling all sorts of things in front of other hunters. Or just as bad - since he could claim the demon was lying - what if the hunters saw him tempted by the blood or even worse, be tempted enough to drink some? Yeah it's selfish that he didn't want them to find out, but I didn't blame him - it's one thing if Dean sees him slip, because Dean may be mad at him, but he at least already knows and is his brother, but hunters he doesn't know all that well? It's not like Sam hasn't had hunters after him before for even less reason. Sam knows the risk of working with hunters he doesn't know so well.

 

When Sam called Bobby to say there was a case right where he was, and Bobby was like, "well then take it, dumbass!" I was 100% on Bobby's side. And why was Sam even calling Bobby if he didn't want to hear that he should just take the freaking case already? Bobby was meanwhile sitting in his house because he was PARALYZED, he wasn't going to "poor baby!" Sam, obviously he was going to tell him to just do his own work. Plus, couldn't Sam have just called up some hunters himself? Since *whoever* tipped them off about the demonic signs in the vicinity was going to have to tell them how those signs got spotted in the first place, they were going to find out that he was weirdly hanging out at this town not taking the case, regardless, and want to know why. So there wasn't even any practical reason to go through Bobby anyway imo.

 

Also, I don't understand why Sam just believed whatever War told him -- and then Dean believed Sam's take on that, too?! It's WAR, who was messing with the entire town's heads. Obviously he wasn't giving Sam a real ~psychoanalysis~ or whatever, he was just trying to goad him and freak him out, and cause more strife, and get Sam to FURTHER the Apocalypse. Sam should believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of whatever War told him imo. Since he and War had the EXACT OPPOSITE goals.

 

And then Sam went on about how it wasn't really Ruby and the blood that had caused him to start the Apocalypse -- OK, then why does it even matter whether you drink the blood after all, Sam? And the only reason I know of that Sam even had *that* idea in his head was because Ruby had told him that almost verbatim after he killed Lilith. But why would Sam believe a damn thing that came out of Ruby's mouth? She's obviously a lying liar who lies, she was CONFESSING when she told him that. And then in that steaming turd of a BM scene at the end of Good God Y'all, Dean of all people is like, "mumble mumble she's probably right." Wut. The whole thing just seemed so dumb to me.

 

I also thought it was just so arrogant for Dean to say that he would hunt better alone and that Sam is just a hindrance to him. I get why Dean was telling *himself* that, because he needed some space and was telling himself it was for the best that he take it. But I wish that Sam had stood up for himself because DAMN. So so so so SO disrespectful.

 

These characters are bizarre to me at this point in the show. In some ways they're super ~butch~ (too much so for my taste) but when it comes to actual insults, they're so meh about it. And when it comes to things that I would expect them to take pride in or to assume is expected of them, they're so whiny and soft. I don't get it.

Share this post


Link to post
Plus, couldn't Sam have just called up some hunters himself? Since *whoever* tipped them off about the demonic signs in the vicinity was going to have to tell them how those signs got spotted in the first place, they were going to find out that he was weirdly hanging out at this town not taking the case, regardless, and want to know why. So there wasn't even any practical reason to go through Bobby anyway imo.

 

Well if Bobby tipped them off - he was pretty much hunter central and could've just said that someone was was tracking another case and couldn't also take this one - maybe he (Sam) could avoid them knowing that he was even there. I believe that it was the demons who ratted Sam out, so if not for more demons than the hunters - and likely Sam - expected, the demon(s) would've been ganked and the problem solved without anybody knowing he (Sam) was there. I actually appreciated at least Sam's trying to do something to whatever the hell they had Sam do in season 8

where he apparently just shrugged his shoulders and went "meh."

 

And then Sam went on about how it wasn't really Ruby and the blood that had caused him to start the Apocalypse -- OK, then why does it even matter whether you drink the blood after all, Sam?

 

Well it was Sam's decision to drink the blood and believe Ruby to begin with, so in that way, he was responsible and he was saying that he couldn't blame the blood or Ruby for that initial decision. He was accepting the blame for his bad decisions. But Sam also knows that the blood, for whatever reason, feeds into those bad decisions. Whether it be a feeling of control, arrogance, confidence, whatever, something Sam feels when he drinks the blood affects his usual personality and turns him into someone he doesn't like being and who makes decisions he normally wouldn't make. And who Sam feels isn't a reliable hunting partner, because he still feels that pull - i.e. he agrees with Dean that he (Sam) is holding Dean back and isn't a good hunting partner for Dean at this point. His reaction when he thought that was demon blood on the knife was part of Sam realizing that he actually might agree with Dean on that point at this time in the season. And remember that Sam still has no idea that that message he got from Dean wasn't real - i.e.he thinks that Dean thinks he is a blood-sucking vampire, and Dean just in "Sympathy for the Devil" told him that there is no forgiving what Sam did and that he doesn't trust him. Sam likely had a really crappy opinion of himself at this point and wasn't in much shape to stick up for himself here.

 

I also thought it was just so arrogant for Dean to say that he would hunt better alone and that Sam is just a hindrance to him. I get why Dean was telling *himself* that, because he needed some space and was telling himself it was for the best that he take it. But I wish that Sam had stood up for himself because DAMN. So so so so SO disrespectful.

 

Oh it was entirely disrespectful, and in my opinion, at this point in the season it isn't just something Dean is telling himself: Dean entirely believes it. He entirely knows he was right about Ruby and that Sam screwed up. He entirely doesn't trust Sam's judgement - they were having disagreements about it that entire War episode - and Dean feels justified in this opinion because of what happened with Ruby, their fight in "When the Levee Breaks" and what Sam did raising Lucifer. It's an opinion he continues to have even at the beginning of the next episode

when he tells Sam that they are better off just staying away from each other, and says his final "goodbye."

The fact that it takes Dean 3/4 of the season

for him to regain his trust in Sam

I think shows here that there really is no "telling himself" about Dean's attitude here. It is how Dean feels.

 

Dean is angry and hurt and is lashing out. Sam is remorseful and trying desperately not to make Dean angry at him so he can do whatever he can to prove that he can change, but he himself at this point isn't sure he can ever do it and pretty much agrees with Dean about himself, so Sam decides to let Dean go until he can get his own head on straight. He can't improve his relationship with Dean until he first fixes himself... and in my opinion, that was what his decision to leave in the previous episode and the happenings in this episode were about.

 

Until Sam was put to the test and was able to resist that blood the hunters were trying to force on him, Sam was worried about how he was going to react in the face of that temptation. His being able to resist helped him to realize that War was wrong and that he could resist if he really tried. Which was why at the beginning of the next episode,

Sam felt a little more confident in telling Dean that he wanted back in.

And then by "Fallen Idols" and his confidence in working that case, Sam was sticking up for himself.

 

But in my opinion, this episode and Sam finding faith in himself had to happen first before he could stick up for himself.

Edited by AwesomO4000
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

There is a lot I don't like about this episode but there is also a lot that I absolutely adore.

 

Sam's scenes with fake-Jess who turns into Lucifer, my heart broke. JP played his longing perfectly and considering we have seen the real her only once in the pilot, this was beautifully done.

I also adore how he played his absolute terror and the nagging doubt when Lucifer explained to him that he was the vessel. I think the doubt prompted him

to call Dean in the next episode, Dean was just not ready to listen.

 

I don't like the fake drama with the hunters. It makes no sense. Why would they want him to hulk out? Did they think they would get away with it? For a show that celebrates hunting monsters, a lot of the other hunters come off as creeps and completely inept.

The girl in the bar doesn't make sense and she was terribly annoying. And then she has the gall to say she's not prying. Girl, that' ALL you've been doing! Still, I can't quite blame her. ;-)

 

I love Dean sort of releasing himself from his burden or what he perceives as burden. His distrust of Sam, his sense of responsibility.

I adore his answer when Cas asks why people have to lie. "Because that's how you become president." It's so non-sensical but it kinda doesn't matter because Cas by now is used to not understanding Dean half the time.

I hate the brothel thing. Since when does Dean go to brothels? Half of the episode is about the search for absent fathers and then Dean giggles: This whole industry is based on absent fathers! WTF? So, that's funny how?

I'm also not a fan of Castiel having sex. His vessel might have "urges" but he is an angel and it makes very little sense, let alone the consent issues about his vessel. So all of those "hijinks" just irritate me.

 

I adore Raphael here, his tantrums, his arrogance, his conviction that he has the right to go ahead because dad's gone, and his remark that it might have been Lucifer who raised Castiel. I adore how they tricked him and I love the repeated reference to ninja turtles.

 

Love the final conversation in the car.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Funny enough, I just watched this episode tonight. I agree with you supposebly about the scenes between Sam and fake-Jess, heartbreaking.

 

I think both the girl from the bar and the hunters were there just to "prove" to Sam that he could run but he couldn't hide and that people were going to get hurt no matter how hard he tried to avoid connections. I don't like the message he was being given and was rather annoyed with how it was done.

 

I enjoy the most of the Dean and Cass scenes and the confrontation with Raphael. I really liked what that actor did with the role.

 

And I don't know if Dean has actually been hitting up brothels, but he's certainly not opposed to the idea.  After all, The Bunny Ranch was a "must see" on his end of the world tour list back in "Are You There, God? It's Me Dean Winchester."

 

The last conversation in the car is interesting, not sure I buy that Dean is *truly* happy on his own. I think there's a sense of relief that comes from not having to worry about Sam, but happy?  Not so much.  And of course Cass wings off in the middle of Dean's monologue. Typical.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

I didn't think Dean's comment about absent fathers fueling the industry was meant to be funny at all. I thought it was a sad gallows humour remark by Dean that highlighted that yes, he respects sex workers in his own way, but he also understands that many of them are there because of problems with their fathers...and was a parallel to Dean's absent father and God being Cas' absent father.

 

It was sad more than funny even if Dean was laughing about it because IMO Dean laughs through most things he finds sad.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

This seems to be the episode that really sets up the main story arc for season 5.  So we're heading toward a Cain and Abel showdown between Dean/Michael and Sam/Lucifer.  The scene with Dean and Castiel at the cathouse was hilarious, and Dean flipping Cass' upside-down FBI badge the right way made me laugh.  The one thing still gnawing at me though, is the cause of the rift between Sam and Dean, and it relates to the writers' decision to put Dean in Hell for forty years.  If anyone should have become a demon on this show, it should have been Dean, because he met the demon requirements.  He was tortured for thirty years, lost his humanity, and spent ten years torturing souls and liking it.  But when he returned to earth, he was human Dean again.  When you look at Sam, he never really did the things Dean did.  He got his demonic powers like super heroes get their powers in Marvel comics, and he used those powers more-or-less for the righteous killing of demons, with this abstract idea that using these powers was going to make him evil even if he was using them for good.

 

So that makes Dean kind of hypocritical to judge Sam so.  Because while drinking demon blood sounds monstrous, what Dean did actually was monstrous.  He earned his demon stripes by doing the job.  Maybe that's it, maybe he is in some way jealous of Sam for getting these demon super powers without actually earning them, Sam got them through a shortcut.  Combine that with self-loathing for what he had become in Hell, and that would explain why Dean can't be around Sam.  I hope they explore that more, as that is kind of a big missing piece to this story right now.  And don't spoil it for me, heh.

Edited by Dobian
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

 

So that makes Dean kind of hypocritical to judge Sam so.  Because while drinking demon blood sounds monstrous, what Dean did actually was monstrous.  He earned his demon stripes by doing the job.  Maybe that's it, maybe he is in some way jealous of Sam for getting these demon super powers without actually earning them, Sam got them through a shortcut.  Combine that with self-loathing for what he had become in Hell, and that would explain why Dean can't be around Sam.  I hope they explore that more, as that is kind of a big missing piece to this story right now.  And don't spoil it for me, heh.

 

I'm pretty sure Dean was not jealous. That's not a spoiler.  Dean was the Righteous Man in Hell. We never heard that he was ever on his way to actually being a demon. 

 

Dean was fully expecting to stay in Hell forever.  Dean never planned to come back and never knew that a demon would offer/compel Dean to torture other souls to stop his own suffering. So, yeah I can't really get on board Dean being jealous of Sam's situation in any way. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

This is a good episode, but one that I never really remember and it's off my radar for some reason.  When I watch it though, I like it.

i don't have much to add that hasn't been said, however the thing that struck me the most during re-watch... Sam's mind is a scary place to be right now. The things that 'JESSICA' was saying we're so dark and depressing (whether it was a dream or Lucifer in Sam's head the whole time, either way Sam wasn't disagreeing much with the words).  He really thinks that way about himself at the moment, and that's pretty sad.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
On 4/6/2016 at 0:34 PM, Dobian said:

So that makes Dean kind of hypocritical to judge Sam so.  Because while drinking demon blood sounds monstrous, what Dean did actually was monstrous.  He earned his demon stripes by doing the job.  Maybe that's it, maybe he is in some way jealous of Sam for getting these demon super powers without actually earning them, Sam got them through a shortcut.  Combine that with self-loathing for what he had become in Hell, and that would explain why Dean can't be around Sam. 

Well, Sam did, we're told, drain a woman of blood to get juiced up enough to kill Lillith, and since we don't know if that woman  (not the demon) would have gone to hell, unlike apparently all the souls Dean tortured (and usually its bad people going to hell, not good ones), its hard to say that what Sam on Earth did isn't so bad compared to Dean in hell.

I got the impression here that Sam wanted to give up hunting altogether.  He burned all his fake badges, which suggests he never intended to hunt again.  The only reason he's going back is because he feels he has to find some way to defeat Lucifer, and to give him strength to resist Lucifer.

Dean and Cas were pretty funny as FBI agents.

Share this post


Link to post

20 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

I got the impression here that Sam wanted to give up hunting altogether.  He burned all his fake badges, which suggests he never intended to hunt again.  The only reason he's going back is because he feels he has to find some way to defeat Lucifer, and to give him strength to resist Lucifer.

I more got the impression that Sam burned the IDs so that he wouldn't be tempted to return to hunting before he thought he was ready - kind of like someone on a diet gets rid of all of the cookies and candy so as not to be tempted. With the IDs gone, he would really have to mean it and make an effort to go back to hunting. When Sam left Dean, he did seem to be doing so with the intent to get his head together again in order to return to the job. He seemed like he wanted to do something about the signs and omens when he called Bobby to report it and see if there were any hunters in the area. He felt bad that he couldn't and hung up quickly so as not to get talked into it.

As for going back, I thought one of the factors that lead to that was that Sam was able to resist the demon blood that the hunters tried to force on him. He was able to spit it out rather than succumb, and I think that gave Sam some confidence that maybe he could go back to the job and resist the temptation this time. I also think that if Sam was really wanting to give up the life, he would've been starting to find something a bit more permanent than busboy at a bar. To me, that choice of employment was purposely something he wouldn't get attached to, and was just something to get him by while he got his shit together. But I've never been one of those viewers who believes that Sam is still being tempted by a "normal life." I pretty much thought Sam gave up on that, or even wanting that, by the time of "What Is and What Should Never Be." But I realize I'm in the minority with that one.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 0:34 PM, Dobian said:

So that makes Dean kind of hypocritical to judge Sam so.  Because while drinking demon blood sounds monstrous, what Dean did actually was monstrous.  He earned his demon stripes by doing the job.  Maybe that's it, maybe he is in some way jealous of Sam for getting these demon super powers without actually earning them, Sam got them through a shortcut.  Combine that with self-loathing for what he had become in Hell, and that would explain why Dean can't be around Sam.  I hope they explore that more, as that is kind of a big missing piece to this story right now.  And don't spoil it for me, heh.

No way that Dean was jealous of Sam's demonic powers.  He definitely hated those.  I don't know that I would call him a hypocrite at this point.  yes, he tortured souls, but he was in Hell.  It was stupid to sell his soul.  It was stupid to drink demon blood.  So, they both got themselves into their own situations, but they both meant well.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

I forgot that this episode contained shirtless Sam. I will always welcome shirtless Sam. I love Adrianne Palicki. And the real Jess. If I could somehow have Sam and Jess live happily ever after, I'd be a very happy woman. The "Simple Man" montage is one of the best ones they've ever done, and I'm not just saying that because it's my favorite Skynyrd song. Ah, Castiel's classic personal space moment. "Teenage Mutant Ninja Angel." Hee. "I need your help because you are the only one who'll help me." Castiel trying to be an FBI agent is hilarious. Dean having to flip the badge over is just a beautiful moment. I like the glimpse of what an archangel possession can do to the vessel. "The best hunter who might be in the immediate vicinity. Oh, wait. That'd be you." I'm getting some nice Bobby/Sam moments this season. We get so many more between Bobby and Dean. "Iniquity is one of the perks." Excellent point, Dean, but you're a little too invested in your buddy's sex life. "No one has ever done anything so bad they can't be forgiven. They can't change." I liked bar girl. Castiel with the phone line metaphor is surprisingly accurate. Raphael's appearance is pretty cool. "Don't look at me, it was his idea." I laughed way too hard at that. I like the moment of doubt Cas has when Raphael says Lucifer raised him. "Maybe one day. But today you're my little bitch." You've been hanging with the Winchesters too long, Cas. For crying out loud, nobody force demon blood on Sam! "Don't think we won't be back!" "Don't think I won't be here!" I love defiant badass Sam. I like Dean genuinely telling Cas to look for God if he believes. The final scene between Lucifer and Sam is great. Mark Pellegrino and Jared play so well off each other. There's so few things that actually terrify Sam, and Lucifer is one of them. My heart breaks for Sam when his face falls when Lucifer says he'll bring him back if he kills himself and when he says "Why me?"

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, bettername2come said:

"Iniquity is one of the perks." Excellent point, Dean, but you're a little too invested in your buddy's sex life.

Hee, but since Sam and Dean are not entirely "good" right now, Dean has to have someone's sex life to be "invested in," so Castiel is the closest thing.

Share this post


Link to post

To me, this episode is largely a pass, except of course for the shirtless Sam at the beginning.  That alone makes the entire thing worth it.  :D  I don't know if it's true, but I heard/read once that (behind a spoiler tag, just in case)

Spoiler

Originally, Jess was supposed to be a demon.  And I try not to let that influence me, but now every time I see her, I wonder if they were kind of writing her with that in mind, even though it never came to pass onscreen.

The first time through, while binge-watching, I couldn't believe Sam was stupid enough to burn all the fake IDs.  Now I get it.  Nice editing back and forth between Sam and Dean.  Sam has got some mad lemon slicing skills.  I don't think I mentioned this in any of the S4 ep threads, so I'm going to put it here before I forget: I really liked Sam's S4 hair.  It might be my favorite Sam Hair Season.  It's not bad so far this season, but the sideburns are encroaching on his cheeks a little too much already.

Was that one of those singing bass hanging on the wall behind officer Framingham's desk?  I think I'm going to believe that it is.  :)

Ah, you know, I do kind of miss the days they had to squat in abandoned houses now and then.  The first appearance of the undetectable extension charmed jug full of 'very rare' (::giggle, snort::) holy oil!  

Lindsay, the bar girl, got on my nerves.  She was just way too pushy.  That line when they were eating dinner - "I don't mean to pry." - honey, all you been doing practically since we first saw you on screen is prying!  At least three times she demanded that Sam tell her his 'story'.  I think that qualifies as prying!  Then she gets all sulky and Sam caves.  So the lesson is: when you want Sam to give in, just sulk.  That was a nice moment with her 'can't be forgiven' speech though.  Makes sense with her 'three years sober' coin.  

They really messed with angel canon in this one, didn't they?  (And subsequently every time they trapped an angel.  Here Castiel says the ritual must be performed at sunrise.  Later, they just do it whenever it's convenient.)  Last season, Dean called Uriel 'junkless' at least twice, for a reason.  But now, he's going to make sure Cas doesn't die a virgin.  Right.  And why was Cas so nervous?  He's a freaking angel - a 'multi-dimensional wavelength of celestial intent' or something like that.  It just doesn't make any sense to me.  Also, if there's practically an open phone line between an angel and his vessel, Sam could have dialed up Lucifer any time he wanted.  

Spoiler

Especially in S12 when they were looking for him

Ditto for Dean and Michael.  Sorry, not sorry, but...I'm sure it was for plot reasons, etc, etc, etc.  (OT, but FWIW, I always hear Yul Brynner in my head when I type that.)  but the whole 'God left no instructions' rings hollow for me (hello?  Have you heard of The Bible?  Applies to angels too.) As does Raphael whining about how bad the 20th century was.  I'm sure some of those earlier centuries (when were Crusades?) were just as bad, if not worse.  And since when can an angel - even an archangel - resurrect another angel?  They are not humans with their immortal souls and meatsuits.  IF that were true, (that archangels could resurrect lesser angels) they would have won the war against demons long ago and they wouldn't have to worry like when Cas had said their numbers were not infinite (or something like that).  So why would it even be considered that someone other than God brought Cas back?

Cas saying "come and get me, you little bastard" was incredibly weird.  Oh, look! It's the green cooler!  Calm, and collected as always, even in the presence of an archangel.  ;)  Way to throw Cas under the bus, there Dean.  ("Don't look at me, it was his idea.")

Bar's closed - so why isn't the door locked?  Or did the ass-hole hunter guy pick the lock?  'Cause he doesn't look like he could.  I guess they waited until Lindsay left to snag her and use her key.  

As far as Dean's "I'm happy" speech in the car at the end - all I can say is: he don't look very happy.  

I gotta say; I wasn't too shocked at the 'Sam is Lucifer's vessel' reveal the first time through.  Maybe it was shocking to fandom when it initially aired?  This time, Lucifer especially bugs me.  All the 'I'll never lie to you' crap.  'I'll never trick you'.  Uh, hello?  Then what was that appearing as Jess BS, huh Luci?  That's what I thought.  Now, shut up.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Was that one of those singing bass hanging on the wall behind officer Framingham's desk?  I think I'm going to believe that it is.  :)

It was! And, it always makes me laugh knowing that Ben Edlund used to pitch--over and over and over--a wish fish episode. I like to think the fish was one of these and you pull the string to get a song and a wish. I know, it doesn't make any sense, but it still amuses me. ;)

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

They really messed with angel canon in this one, didn't they?  (And subsequently every time they trapped an angel.  Here Castiel says the ritual must be performed at sunrise.  Later, they just do it whenever it's convenient.)

I can give them a pass on this one only because the ritual was not only to trap Raphael, but to summon him into his vessel. So, I think the ritual to summon Raphael did need to be done at sunrise, but the holy oil ring of fire can be done at any time. Actually, if I remember right, they did the actual trapping at night.

But, the whole ring of holy fire gag cracks me up anyway. Not only that the angels always just conveniently shows up dead center to where they just happened to put a ring of holy oil, but they also just conveniently stand there while someone lights the match, throws it on the oil and waits for it to light in a circle. Talk about your conveniently convenient contrivances. ;)

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Last season, Dean called Uriel 'junkless' at least twice, for a reason.  But now, he's going to make sure Cas doesn't die a virgin.  Right.  And why was Cas so nervous?  He's a freaking angel - a 'multi-dimensional wavelength of celestial intent' or something like that.  It just doesn't make any sense to me.

You and me both, sister! Plus, I kinda hate that Dean thinks getting Cass laid would be something he would want to even do on his last on on Earth. The whole thing was just silly, if you ask me.

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 Also, if there's practically an open phone line between an angel and his vessel, Sam could have dialed up Lucifer any time he wanted.  

Yep. Doesn't make any sense either. 

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I gotta say; I wasn't too shocked at the 'Sam is Lucifer's vessel' reveal the first time through.  Maybe it was shocking to fandom when it initially aired?

I wasn't at all shocked. Once they revealed Dean was Michael's vessel, I figured Sam was Lucifer's and that's what Yellow Eyes had set up from the beginning. I actually thought it would've been more interesting if they'd done a swerve in S5 and Sam was no longer considered necessary to the demons or angels and they all started ignoring him like he wasn't important anymore. 

Edited by DittyDotDot

Share this post


Link to post

12 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

As far as Dean's "I'm happy" speech in the car at the end - all I can say is: he don't look very happy.

I think that was the point.  He was lying to himself.

 

12 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Also, if there's practically an open phone line between an angel and his vessel, Sam could have dialed up Lucifer any time he wanted.  

Well, I think Sam only wanted Lucifer twice.  Once, in Hammer of the Gods. Cas wasn't there, and I think you needed exact words.  So, I guess the only time it didn't make sense was in Swan Song.  Cas could have whispered the words in Sam's ears like he did Raphael's vessel.  Or, he could have gotten rid of the angel hiding marking.  But, it had to happen in Detroit.  Wouldn't want to mess with Lucifer's prediction. 

 

12 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Bar's closed - so why isn't the door locked?  Or did the ass-hole hunter guy pick the lock?  'Cause he doesn't look like he could.  I guess they waited until Lindsay left to snag her and use her key.

Same thing happened in Born Under a Bad Sign.  And in The Man Who Knew too Much, but that was a dream, so doesn't count. But, I have worked in food service places, and the first thing you do when you close is lock the door, so you're right.  But, Sam had a lot on his mind, so maybe he forgot.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, I think Sam only wanted Lucifer twice.  Once, in Hammer of the Gods. Cas wasn't there, and I think you needed exact words.  So, I guess the only time it didn't make sense was in Swan Song.  Cas could have whispered the words in Sam's ears like he did Raphael's vessel.  Or, he could have gotten rid of the angel hiding marking.

Now that I think about it, maybe the ritual only works for a vessel who has already given consent and been possessed? Maybe the link is due to the possession not the vessel itself?

Spoiler

Maybe it's the residual grace?

So, it wouldn't have worked for Sam or Dean because they were firmly in the no-possession camp.

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, I have worked in food service places, and the first thing you do when you close is lock the door, so you're right.

Not only lock the door, but actively ignore the people knocking on the door and looking through the windows. You'll never get to go home if you keep letting yahoos wander in off the street! ;)

Edited by DittyDotDot
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
35 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It was! And, it always makes me laugh knowing that Ben Edlund used to pitch--over and over and over--a wish fish episode. I like to think the fish was one of these and you pull the string to get a song and a wish. I know, it doesn't make any sense, but it still amuses me. ;)

Yay!  I like it even better now that I know it was a singing bass.  I sure hope Officer Framingham doesn't pull the string and make a wish on his Ish Wish Fish Dish.  On this show, things would go wrong very quickly with that.  

45 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, the whole ring of holy fire gag cracks me up anyway. Not only that the angels always just conveniently shows up dead center to where they just happened to put a ring of holy oil, but they also just conveniently stand there while someone lights the match, throws it on the oil and waits for it to light in a circle. Talk about your conveniently convenient contrivances. ;)

At least this time, they kind of had Raphael walk forward into the ring.  But yeah, other times, it's been mighty conveniently convenient.  As is that bottomless jug full of extremely rare (so rare they always seem to have plenty of it and just tote it around in their trunk!) holy oil.

48 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I actually thought it would've been more interesting if they'd done a swerve in S5 and Sam was no longer considered necessary to the demons or angels and they all started ignoring him like he wasn't important anymore. 

I think I'm going to need to take this to the All Seasons thread.

28 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, I think Sam only wanted Lucifer twice.  Once, in Hammer of the Gods. Cas wasn't there, and I think you needed exact words.  So, I guess the only time it didn't make sense was in Swan Song.  Cas could have whispered the words in Sam's ears like he did Raphael's vessel.  Or, he could have gotten rid of the angel hiding marking.  But, it had to happen in Detroit.  Wouldn't want to mess with Lucifer's prediction. 

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Now that I think about it, maybe the ritual only works for a vessel who has already given consent and been possessed? Maybe the link is due to the possession not the vessel itself?

  Reveal hidden contents

Maybe it's the residual grace?

So, it wouldn't have worked for Sam or Dean because they were firmly in the no-possession camp.

This too.

28 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think that was the point.  He was lying to himself.

I thought so.  But, if I read other comments correctly, some people didn't think so.

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Not only lock the door, but actively ignore the people knocking on the door and looking through the windows. You'll never get to go home if you keep letting yahoos wander in off the street! ;)

So much this!

Share this post


Link to post
On 4/6/2016 at 12:34 PM, Dobian said:

The one thing still gnawing at me though, is the cause of the rift between Sam and Dean, and it relates to the writers' decision to put Dean in Hell for forty years.  If anyone should have become a demon on this show, it should have been Dean, because he met the demon requirements.  He was tortured for thirty years, lost his humanity, and spent ten years torturing souls and liking it.  But when he returned to earth, he was human Dean again.  When you look at Sam, he never really did the things Dean did.  He got his demonic powers like super heroes get their powers in Marvel comics, and he used those powers more-or-less for the righteous killing of demons, with this abstract idea that using these powers was going to make him evil even if he was using them for good.

 

So that makes Dean kind of hypocritical to judge Sam so.  Because while drinking demon blood sounds monstrous, what Dean did actually was monstrous.  He earned his demon stripes by doing the job.  Maybe that's it, maybe he is in some way jealous of Sam for getting these demon super powers without actually earning them, Sam got them through a shortcut.  Combine that with self-loathing for what he had become in Hell, and that would explain why Dean can't be around Sam.  I hope they explore that more, as that is kind of a big missing piece to this story right now.  And don't spoil it for me, heh.

THIS SO MUCH OMG. my family was so dang harsh on sam when me and my brother pointed out about dean's situation as well. that's why in the first episode when dean kept telling sam to stop saying he was sorry i assumed it was because dean had his on slew of problems of hell as well and didn't judge him as harshly as the plot did. anyone can use the "he lost his humanity" argument but in the end dean made a choice and so did sam, but somehow everyone is dodging nicely of hating dean. in way, sam lost his humanity when dean was gone. he was tortured as well. so him doing extremely wrong things wouldn't be that shocking in that context. that's why i am disappointed and angry but i do not hate sam, nowhere near it. i've said it before, sam is dean's emotions, he keeps him in check with his heart and his conscience. dean keep sam strong, he doesn't let him stay in his dark emotions for long and keeps his head up. so what would happen if dean's conscience and sam's strength were taken away? hmmm, not that hard to understand their actions then, is it? so i don't think dean is hypocritical on sam's decisions on hims judging him, i don't think he's judging him at all on there, i think it was more on that sam made those decisions without him, that he was out of the picture for most of sam's journey, and that's why it hurts him so bad. i don't know about dean being jealous, that's not like his character so i'll just leave that hanging. but all the rest i agree with.

----------

well finally a rock song i know, simple man! (although i originally knew the song from a dubstep remix a long time ago, lol.) i said it a million times beforehand and i'll say it again, the bargirl was so freaking annoying. i love how sam gracefully turned her down by her dare and hit all perfects on the target placement (also it was just awesome to see, john's training really did a number on these boys) - a clear sign he didn't want to be bothered. but them she ruins it again by still practically begging him again. for pete's sake she's knew to life isn't she? can't take a hint?

i LOVE the actor who plays raphael. i don't know his name but i have seen him around a lot and i like his acting style. now that i think about it maybe he wasn't referring to God as really dead, but just as "dead" as in gone, as in vanished because he doesn't have any other reason why these things are happening.

"The Suite Life of Dean and Cass" was actually fun to watch. to me it was just him hanging out with a friend, and there are different interactions he would have with him than sam naturally.  cass' look at dean and confirming "st. peter's." is underrated. although it was confusing why he was nervous admitting he was a virgin, i mean i'm 99% he wouldn't give a single crap on whether he had sex or not. actually it would have been more fun to see him get drunk than getting laid. dean laughing was so very strange, wow lol. this whole time from S1 up to now we only get short chuckles from either brother, and dean isn't only laughing but cracking up. i liked that so much i had to go back again to see it. jensen's subtle expression when he said "Not in years" and slowly faded his grin. it was a mind reading moment that dean was thinking of something that happened between him and sam. i wouldn't be upset at all if they featured a moment in whatever episode in this season when they are really laughing, like dean just did, and are having fun.
and man i really missed Ladies Man dean, as much as me and my sister harp on his every move on females. he hasn't been on his game in quite a while (saving sam and the world and all), so just his simple looks he gives women as they glance at him (like in the hospital hall after cass flopped his lady night)...i don't know, something just flows in my blood when he does that.

me and my family were watching in pity and horror as the hunters forced him to drink that blood. can this man get a break for 2 seconds, thanks.

i liked how dean and sam were still indirectly in contact with each other by their "calling" bobby. he was their thread to their paper cup calls.

as for dean's "speech", it's very interpretive in my opinion. i don't think he was lying to himself, he can feel good about himself if he spends one whole day without sam. for me i think he was just speaking in the moment. to me he wasn't thinking of sam a lot this episode, thus why whenever he did, his expressions would change and he would do something to forget again.

i really hope the writer's choice of making lucifer in bed with sam and stroking him was as disgusting as it looked because that's how i took it, disguise or not. so lucifer wants sam huh. so sam is the devil and dean is the angel. two sides of the same coin. interesting.

Share this post


Link to post

Just recognized one of the hunters who tracks down Sam as the guy who plays the inbred sheriff in The Prisoner!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I swear the worst part of this episode is Lindsey the waitress that works in the bar with Sam. I get that she's probably there for the parallel to Sam with the demon blood with her speech about how someone with an addiction can always be forgiven and overcome their past but OMG was she annoying. Way too persistent considering that Sam was giving off clear "leave me alone" signals IMO. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

17 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I swear the worst part of this episode is Lindsey the waitress that works in the bar with Sam. I get that she's probably there for the parallel to Sam with the demon blood with her speech about how someone with an addiction can always be forgiven and overcome their past but OMG was she annoying. Way too persistent considering that Sam was giving off clear "leave me alone" signals IMO. 

Agree, but that's probably because I find this actress annoying in any role.

I'm not the biggest fan of Jared's acting, but credit where it's due - the fight scene in the bar was pretty great. I remember appreciating it more then, 

Spoiler

before the days of Super!Sam

Jared was quite formidable in those days and I had no trouble believing he could kick both their asses. That one punch/flying elbow to the face after he gets up off the floor, and the kick in the chest. Holy moly, I would not have wanted that Jared mad at me!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
On 3/12/2015 at 12:04 AM, rue721 said:

Lindsey was way too pushy for my taste. And when she finally got Sam to go to dinner with her, despite him having Bad News written all over him, she goes on about how nobody can do anything that's so bad that he can't be forgiven? First of all, that's not true. Even Dean isn't necessarily going to forgive him for the Ruby/Apocalypse/Demon-Blood stuff. When it comes to anyone else, who doesn't even love him, he doesn't have a shot at being forgiven! People do things that other people find unforgivable all the time. Second of all, who is she to start lecturing some guy she doesn't even know about stuff like that? It sounded like she was about to pull out a Jesus tract. Meh. Lindsey and the bad acting from the hunter friends kind of ruined Sam's storyline for me.

Way way too pushy. I could have gotten behind some abbreviated scene where he went to some meetings and developed some coping mechanisms, but instead she just end up being nosy and intrusive. As a recovering alcoholic, you would expect her to know that not everyone is in a place to talk about their past with acquaintances.

On 6/4/2015 at 5:53 PM, supposebly said:

I hate the brothel thing. Since when does Dean go to brothels? Half of the episode is about the search for absent fathers and then Dean giggles: This whole industry is based on absent fathers! WTF? So, that's funny how?

I'm also not a fan of Castiel having sex. His vessel might have "urges" but he is an angel and it makes very little sense, let alone the consent issues about his vessel. So all of those "hijinks" just irritate me.

I agree. I hated the brothel and hated the pressure on Cass to have sex. It was played for laughs, but felt super awkward to me. The consent issues also bugged me. I am still squicked out about how Cass got his body, and the fact he is depriving his host of his body indefinitely. Now he is considering having sex with it. It leads to ethical questions but also, if he is unable to heal others, can he heal himself of STIs? Cause it is just rude to return a body with the clap.

On 7/1/2018 at 2:42 PM, DeeDee79 said:

I swear the worst part of this episode is Lindsey the waitress that works in the bar with Sam. I get that she's probably there for the parallel to Sam with the demon blood with her speech about how someone with an addiction can always be forgiven and overcome their past but OMG was she annoying. Way too persistent considering that Sam was giving off clear "leave me alone" signals IMO. 

Yes. He couldn't have been clearer. My most generous interpretation is that she thought he was in recovery and knew the importance of a support network. But that feels pretty generous. 

There is something just wrong about the guys being separated, but I think the episode could have worked. It did in some respects. I liked Dean hunting alone and having fun with Castiel. It was fun to play with a different dynamic. By the way, did he kill a vampire that was killing pets? Interesting to have another reference to vampires who don't go after humans. I honestly didn't mind Sam trying to have some quiet anonymous recovery time. 

But, as mentioned above, some of the episode just didn't work for me. 

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Customize font-size