S05.E01: Sympathy For The Devil

[DittyDotDot]

Lucifer is free and both angels and demons are after Sam and Dean.

 

So, S5 gets ushered in with a big old...whimper. Bobby getting stabbed had some interesting potential as did the idea of the vessels and Lucifer walking and talking, but like most things in S5, none of it mattered in the end, so I have little interest in it retrospectively. I've been kinda dreading getting to S5--not only because it seems to be the season where everyone continually brings up the same old arguments and around and around it goes--but S5 is so talky and monologue-y and mostly just boring to me. They have all these big ideas that never seemed to materialize and at the end I still wonder if anything actually happened.  Sorry, this wandering mind of mine, back to the episode proper.

 

A lot of talking and then some more talking and then you know what happened after that? Some more damn talking. I think Chuck summed up this episode quite nicely..."This sucks ass."

 

It's hard to find a positive to end on. Alright, I found Becky annoyingly amusing and I always enjoy seeing Chuck. Oh yeah, I liked Meg 2.0, too. That should do it.

[mertensia]

I prefer Meg 2.0 to OriginalMeg.

In restrospect Zachariah should have just grabbed Dean and vanished.

I find Becky to be an excellent example of the megafan who lives in front of the computer. She'd be tedious to be around though. She reminds me of a Classic Trek fan who once buttonholed me and explained in great detail and in depth why exactly Bones had used elevator instead of turbolift in some episode or movie. Writer error or actor goof never occurred to her and clearly wasn't the Correct Answer.

[7kstar]

 

@dittydotdot

Bobby getting stabbed had some interesting potential as did the idea of the vessels and Lucifer walking and talking, but like most things in S5, none of it mattered in the end, so I have little interest in it retrospectively. I've been kinda dreading getting to S5--not only because it seems to be the season where everyone continually brings up the same old arguments and around and around it goes--but S5 is so talky and monologue-y and mostly just boring to me. They have all these big ideas that never seemed to materialize and at the end I still wonder if anything actually happened

 I can agree with a good bit, but I don't mind talky if I like the scene but yes action is so much better.  But stage plays are talky and since I do love plays & I can enjoy a good monologue.  I only remember three things and the rest is like what happened?

 

I did love the moment that Cas saved Dean and Sam from Zach.  Zach also wasn't the smartest angel in the planet, he should have shown Dean how he would save lives and then whisked him away to "the End." 

 

The second moment I liked was Dean getting Bobby to overcome being a demon long enough to save his life.  At this point in the show, Dean has twice gotten the people that loved him to stop the Demon action, and I thought this meant something...but I guess NOT.  darn it.

 

I did enjoy Dean giving the speech to Bobby and Sam about how we keep fighting, but then when Sam thinks everything is now okay between them, Dean letting him have it.  It was a real moment and needed to be done.  Otherwise I would never have believed it and it was a start in redeeming Sam for me.  I still liked Sam this season...I just wished that some smarter and better choices had been made after this point. 

 

I also now wonder if this is the season we really see how much influence that Kim Manners had on the show.  Season 4 had a burst of new ideas but those burst of new ideas were starting to dwindle.  I think he knew how to make things better even if the script wasn't that strong.  I'm not sure that Bob Singer was a good match since I think he tends to agree with the writers but that is best to discuss in another thread if it warrants discussion.

Edited October 5, 2014 by 7kstar

[DittyDotDot]

 I can agree with a good bit, but I don't mind talky if I like the scene but yes action is so much better.  But stage plays are talky and since I do love plays & I can enjoy a good monologue.  I only remember three things and the rest is like what happened?

 

I should probably clarify, it's not the talking itself I object to, it's the talking just for talking sake that annoys me. What I mean is, I didn't feel like all the talking was necessary or helped us along or anything like that--it mostly feels like they're just filling time, to me. One of my very favorite episodes is In My Time Of Dying and I'd say it's also a talky episode. But the talking there is important and they made it look interesting when they did it. It wasn't just a bunch of people standing in a room statically talking about stuff that didn't really matter in the end.

 

That's probably more due to Bob Singer's direction than anything, though. His episodes tend to look very basic to me and lack a certain spark or maybe its "style". He tends to be a very by-the-book director. Which can be good on a show that has more structure and a more planned out vision. But, I think a show like this that seems to be more fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants needs a more out-of-the-box director to help land an episode like this.

[7kstar]

I should probably clarify, it's not the talking itself I object to, it's the talking just for talking sake that annoys me.

 

That's probably more due to Bob Singer's direction than anything, though. His episodes tend to look very basic to me and lack a certain spark or maybe its "style". But, I think a show like this that seems to be more fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants needs a more out-of-the-box director to help land an episode like this.

I can totally see that, and I think the problem is that when you film you have to frame every shot and it lends itself to a fixed way of thinking about it.  I know as a set designer for my stage productions, they really started to get interesting when I let go of how it is suppose to be done and just worked with how can I actually do this. 

 

It's lead to some out of the box thinking and now I usually like the set so much more.  I just see this from Bob in his interviews.  I'm sure there are parts where he is really good, but it made it a mess I think in this one.

[TimetoShine]

My question? How was Bobby able to be possessed by a demon? Did he not have one of those anti-possession tattoos? 

[DittyDotDot]

As far as I know, it's never been shown that he had a tattoo, but he did give the boys those charms they used to make the tattoos. I always assumed he wore a charm at least...especially after what happened to his wife. So, I got no clue how he got possessed. But as I stated above, there are other issues, so whatever, right?

Edited February 23, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[GirlyGeek]

I thought this was an OK beginning, but not on the level of Lazarus Rising and In My Time of Dying.  Big shoes to fill IMO for a premiere.

 

It was rough seeing and feeling the tension  between the boys, but I'm glad it was there.  It would not have felt right or real for them to just pick right back up again.  Dean could barely look at Sam in the eye and that's exactly how it needed to be.

 

Most telling was when "Bobby" was laying into Sam about losing his number, etc, and Dean didn't stand up to Bobby or interfere.  A season ago, Dean wouldn't have stood for someone, even Bobby, saying that to Sam, so it was a nice subtle change.  On that same note, Dean not immediately giving in to Zachariah when Sam stopped breathing was a good way to show that Dean had changed and their relationship had changed.

 

All that being said, I was glad to see Sam taking responsibility for his actions and being sorry.  He doesn't do I'm sorry very well, historically, and Jared did a good job portraying Sam's feelings on what he had done and what he had lost in the process.

 

Smart Dean with the sigil was nice, too!

I, too, wonder how Bobby got possessed.  You'd think he and his house would be warded up like crazy.  I also wonder how long he was possessed for and what else he might have done!  I'm glad Bobby let Sam off the hook a bit though by telling him it was the demon talking, not Bobby.  I know Sam deserves it, but I was feeling bad for the guy.

 

The end with Sam and Dean was great, too.  It was obvious that it was one thing for Dean to be pissed at Sam, but another thing (in Sam's eyes) for Dean to not trust him anymore.

[AwesomO4000]

Interesting observations, GirlyGeek, and I agree with your assessment of this episode.
 

He doesn't do I'm sorry very well, historically,

 

I'm not sure about my opinion on this, though. But I might be confusing giving apologies with accepting them - which Sam usually had been pretty good at at least until the current seasons. I'm trying to remember an apology from Sam where he did badly with it in the past of this point, and I'm coming up blank... but that doesn't mean there isn't one since I tend to be a small bit Sam-biased, so it's very possible I forgot something and if so apologize in advance.

[rue721]

I hate so much about this episode.

 

Bobby kicking Sam out that way was way over the line. I guess Sam was lost in a guilt-induced phantasmagoria, so I give him a pass on not defending himself or thinking Bobby was acting weird. But Dean thought it was nbd that Bobby had suddenly transformed into a raging asshole? Even if Bobby truly despised Sam and wanted to tell him so, he wouldn't talk to him like that right in front of Dean. When Bobby has wanted to rip into Dean, he's taken him outside or otherwise done it away from Sam, too. Because Bobby is actually not a douchebag, he does have *some* honor. Plus, Dean's more hotheaded than Bobby is -- he didn't think that if *he* was managing to keep his cool, it was weird that Bobby was flipping out? Also, nice loyalty, dude.

 

I get that Dean was feeling betrayed and like he couldn't trust Sam, and frankly, I would also be having a really hard time even being in the same room as Sam if I were in his place. It would be difficult to even trust him as far as working together. But at the same time, couldn't Dean have just not said anything? If Sam can't do anything about it, what's the use in even telling him?

 

I think the writing was also a little weak in that it didn't seem like Dean's feelings didn't really evolve over the episode, he just wrote off Sam at some point pre-episode and then stuck with that, I guess. Maybe it would have been better if he tried to defend Sam to Bobby or Zachariah or somebody the first time Sam got laid into/attacked, but realized it was half-hearted or he couldn't really do it, and *then* the next time Sam was attacked, he'd gone completely cold? So that there was some evolution of his feelings there?

 

Btw, my friend was working for SPN's production company during this season. He didn't watch the show before starting work there, but I was already a fan -- which he knew, because we were in a (TV) writing group together, so obviously we talked about TV constantly. Anyway, since he was working there, he had to go to the S5 premier party, and got some really minor swag that he then passed on to me. So I still have some gigantic man's sweatshirt that has Supernatural Season 5 embroidered onto it, lol. I hadn't thought about that in a long time, but watching this tonight, I suddenly realized, "hey! this is the season premiere that [Friend] saw *at* the production company's premiere party!" Sadly, I didn't like this episode at the time, either, and I don't think I even watched S5 on broadcast (don't really remember). But y'know. Still kind of cool! In a dorky, seven-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon kind of way. (*tear* I miss LA!).

[DittyDotDot]

Bobby kicking Sam out that way was way over the line. I guess Sam was lost in a guilt-induced phantasmagoria, so I give him a pass on not defending himself or thinking Bobby was acting weird. But Dean thought it was nbd that Bobby had suddenly transformed into a raging asshole? Even if Bobby truly despised Sam and wanted to tell him so, he wouldn't talk to him like that right in front of Dean. When Bobby has wanted to rip into Dean, he's taken him outside or otherwise done it away from Sam, too. Because Bobby is actually not a douchebag, he does have *some* honor. Plus, Dean's more hotheaded than Bobby is -- he didn't think that if *he* was managing to keep his cool, it was weird that Bobby was flipping out? Also, nice loyalty, dude.

 

But, Bobby was possessed and not himself. I always assumed the demon was trying to separate Sam and Dean. At the end of the episode Bobby apologized and said he wasn't cutting Sam out of anything.

Edited March 2, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

But, Bobby was possessed and not himself. I always assumed the demon was trying to separate Sam and Dean. At the end of the episode Bobby apologized and said he wasn't cutting Sam out of anything.

 

Yeah I know, I'm saying I thought it was weird that neither Sam nor Dean was more taken aback by how Bobby was acting, because it seemed *way* out of character to me.

 

Sam, I give a pass, because it's easy to believe that he was feeling so guilty that he'd believe that he'd deserve whatever anyone might dish out to him. But Dean didn't find Bobby's behavior strange? I guess he himself was so pissed off at Sam that he thought it was perfectly normal that Bobby would rip into Sam like that, and for Bobby to tell Sam he never wanted to see him again, and for Bobby to add insult to injury and humiliate Sam as well by doing all that right in front of Dean. Jeez.

 

If I were Bobby, I would have gotten angry about *that*! Bobby was being so nasty to Sam he was making him *cry,* and it didn't even occur to either of them that that wasn't normal behavior for Bobby? Bobby must have been feeling like, "gee, thanks."

 

Ugh, and if that fight didn't seem remarkable or shocking to them then I dread to think what Sam's fights were like with his actual father back in the day. Thank goodness that this time, Sam was sensible and just left.

[DittyDotDot]

I was really surprised Bobby acted that way too and I remember thinking it was weird that Dean wasn't more defensive of Sam, but then I remembered that Dean was also epically mad at Sam right then and a little preoccupied with other matters and probably wasn't too keyed in on Bobby right then. Plus, I imagine he felt like Sam deserved some of it at the time. I could easily imagine the demon being able to tap into what Dean was feeling and prey on it a bit, knowing that Dean probably wasn't paying proper attention right then. They used to have this idea that demons could read people's thoughts and such. It's not something they do much with anymore, though.

[Dobian]

 

If I were Bobby, I would have gotten angry about *that*! Bobby was being so nasty to Sam he was making him *cry,* and it didn't even occur to either of them that that wasn't normal behavior for Bobby? Bobby must have been feeling like, "gee, thanks."

 

 

I would think by now that Sam and Dean would have a standard protocol that whenever they visit Bobby or one of the other hunters they splash them with a bit of holy water on greeting them.  Even with each other, if they have been separated, the next time they see each other they should do the demon test.

[DittyDotDot]

Okay, delved into S5 a couple days ago and as stated above, not really my favorite episode, but I have to say that Yosemite Sam moment never fails to set my expectations higher than they should be. Perhaps that's really the reason I find I don't care for the episode in the end?

I actually like the brother conflict and that part feels organic, but the Lucifer parts just bore me to death. It actually might have been interesting to have Lucifer fail at his first attempt to corrupt a human after eons of being out of practice.

Anyhoo, what I found most interesting this time around was how much Sam was almost begging for Dean to punish him. He keeps bringing it up, trying to force Dean to get it all over with--like a kid wanting his dad to just get the beating over with--but instead Dean tells him it's okay--like a parent who realizes his kid is too old for a beating.

[GirlyGeek]

This is a mixed bag for me too. The tension is good and well-earned. In show-time, Sam hit Bobby in the face with the butt of a shotgun the last time he saw him and left him on the ground. 

In show-time (what... Less than 24 hours ago) dean and Sam beat the holy crap out of each other. Sam drained a woman dry and raised Lucifer  

So, ya it's been a busy 24 hours or so. 

But the Lucifer stuff bores me for the most part. 

I do like that Sams  taking responsibility and the arrogance he carried for most of Season 4 is gone. 

[Hanahope]

So it was clear Lucifer would b Mark Pelligrino, who was playing Jacob on Lost at the same time, hah.  Of course he'd just believe Satan when he said he doesn't lie.  I thought the whole had to find a willing meat suit plot a waste of time, since it was so easy to get one.

Yes Sam you blew it, though Dean should have know a bit better how to reach you.

i too was surprised Bobby could be possessed and didn't have the tattoo.

[bettername2come]

Ah, season 5. Possibly the best season, definitely the best myth arc, although not sure it's my favorite season. That opening, though, is definitely my favorite use of deus ex machina ever. I especially like that God saves them, but not too much. And uses Yosemite Sam to make a point. They still have to stay close enough to see the destruction. And then Chuck whacks Sam with a plunger. That's what you get for starting the apocalypse. "Well, my head hurts." "Oh, God. Is that a molar?" "I learned that from my friend Cas, you son of a bitch!" This is the first time he's called Cas a friend, isn't it? I love watching their relationship evolve. 

Oh, Becky. "Nice change up to the mythology, by the way. The demon stuff was getting kind of old." I'm willing to bet some fan said that to Kripke verbatim. Aw, Sam. I love that he tries to take responsibility for his actions. He's clearly hurt by what he thinks are Bobby's words. Demon Bobby makes me wish we'd see Bobby fight more. Brunette Meg! My least favorite Meg, but she had her moments. I forgot that Bobby stabbed himself rather than hurt Dean. Have I mentioned how much I love him? I also love that unlike Dean, Sam recognized Meg immediately. Nice bit of continuity there that he knew her better. And Sam's initial refusal to leave Bobby at the hospital? Thank you, Sam I Know and Love. I missed you. "Oh, thank God, the angels are here." Love the Michael sword reveal. I'm thinking the Jimmy reveal near the end of last season was just to increase Dean's understanding in preparation for this plot. Zechariah's such a dick. I love Dean's defiance. Castiel to the rescue! I love those reminders that Cas is a badass angelic warrior. "Put these boys back together and go. I won't ask twice." Dammit, Castiel, can you just answer the boys' question?

"We save as many as we can for as long as we can." Probably a more truthful tagline than "saving people, hunting things." I love Bobby making it clear he'll never give up on Sam. Bobby's good people. He deserves good things. Oh, Dean. Trying to keep everything together in spite of, well, everything. He tries so hard. 

Poor Nick. The bloody dream, the baby monitor, the bleeding crib, the dead wife hallucination (that damn white night gown again), the general backstory of murdered family. Mark Pellegrino plays the drama and the grief so well. 

Edited July 2, 2017 by bettername2come

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Yep, I'm still following along...::grumble, grumble, grumble::

This might be my favorite season opener.  When those 'favorite, least favorite' lists go around, I usually pass because I can't narrow it down to episodes/seasons so much (except least favorite season.  That's easy.)  But watching this again - I just love how they are zapped onto the airplane.

Chuck is hilarious.  "This sucks ass."  

Of course Dean is angry with Sam and doesn't trust him.  Duh.  But if Sam really was completely miraculously demon-detoxed, then he is feeling a world of guilt and regret right now.  I think both Jared and Jensen played that magnificently.  

Heh.  I wonder if 'samlicker81' is taken as a user name on PTV.   I don't blame Becky one bit for not being able to quit touching Sam.  Can't believe that Bobby got possessed so easily.  Ouch, Sam is always getting kicked between the legs in a fight.  Poor regular guy, Nick.  It's nice to remember he wasn't always a jerk.  And he was actually funny once.  "Could you do me a favor there, Satan, and remind me to quit drinking before I go to bed?"

Oh, I do love warrior angel Cas.  And Zach's face when Cas asks him how the boys ended up on the plane "because the angels didn't do it." 

If the angels knew Lucifer was circling his vessel, why didn't they hide the vessel from him?  Or try to get to Nick first?  They had to have known who the vessel was in order to know that he was circling him.  Seems pretty stupid to just let Nick get taken, ah, but then..

Spoiler

They actually wanted the big showdown fight, didn't they?

[sarthaz]

I actually like the storyline with Nick's meatsuit, mainly because of Mark's performance.  His pain is palpable, and it's some of the best work he's done on the show.

[Iju]

...wow. my family beat sam in the floor so badly this episode, lmao. it's as if they are completely ignoring the reason why he trusted ruby in the first place. all of his actions are done by him, i'm not excusing him, but they are seriously acting like sam is a demon himself for pete's sake.

i don't know the guy who plays bobby name is, but when he said "Don't look up my number anymore," even my heart sank. and sam feeling so horrible he just blinked and took it all.

when sam got bashed in the head by chuck i expected dean to run over and see if he was okay, or at least say a "Hey!" at him, but he didn't even flinch. so there's the obvious shift in their relationship, and it's painful to watch, to speak truthfully.

"We made a mess. We gotta clean it up. It's what we do." i think these are the words that will be the theme of this season. dean is just focused on, ya know saving the world instead of slowing down and going through even more pain than he already has with sam. he knows he feels bad, and that's all that he needs to deal with right now.

my family hates sam now, but i'm not giving up on him. i'm so angry with him and am currently on dean's side of feelings, but i'm not heartless to sam. dean's speech wasn't enough in my opinion. sam needs to understand that he did the equivalent of cheating. it's a two person relationship, there is two sided love, two sided trust, and one person decides to go behind the other person and make it a three way relationship. not only that, but the other the person is cheating with is worse than the original partner a million times over, so it hurts the partner all the more and confuses them. in addition that the original partner gave the cheater a chance, just admit the other was cheating and they could deal with it together. but no still no listening. it's horrible and damaging, and sam is lucky af that dean is his brother, because cheating in most times end almost immediately. sam had so many times to go back, which makes it worse. if he listened on the 4th warning, the 9th warning, heck the last warning, things could have been different. dean still loves sam surely, he even still used his nickname at the end of the episode, he's just lost at what to do with him anymore. he's so disappointed and hurt. but as i said he can't focus on that right now, the world and all.

On 01/07/2017 at 11:00 PM, bettername2come said:

I also love that unlike Dean, Sam recognized Meg immediately. Nice bit of continuity there that he knew her better.

yeah i saw that as well, that was kind of cool imo.

EDIT: speaking of cool, i can't believe i forgot to write this down dean's action throwing zach back into heaven wasn't only cool, but what was really cool was that he remembered the sign after seeing it only twice and seeing how it was made once! that's not some kind of dumb trope to throw in, it's actually believable because dean is a brilliant hunter and he probably unconsciously soaked in the angel sign, somewhere, somehow. awesome! :)

Edited March 28, 2018 by Iju

[The Companion]

On 4/3/2016 at 6:54 PM, Dobian said:

I would think by now that Sam and Dean would have a standard protocol that whenever they visit Bobby or one of the other hunters they splash them with a bit of holy water on greeting them.  Even with each other, if they have been separated, the next time they see each other they should do the demon test.

This drives me insane. And we have seen it as Bobby's standard protocol as well. What they should have done was have Bobby do his standard holy water test. Then the answer would be that the demon didn't use holy water. There is really no excuse not to do frequent holy water testing. It isn't hard to make.

I didn't comment on the finale thread because I rolled on through (no cliffhangers when binging) but the threat pretty much covered what I was thinking. Looking at it continued in this episode, I feel like a total outlier because I feel like Dean is completely ignoring his own culpability. Ultimately, Sam was actually right. He was the only one who could take down Lilith. It just turns out doing so was a bad thing. Both got manipulated. 

Beyond that, I am not sure Dean gets to act like Sam caused the apocalypse while ignoring that he jumpstarted it. Just as he didn't realize he was breaking the first seal, Sam didn't realize he was breaking the last. Look, I don't actually expect perspective in such a short time, but I am also having trouble watching the blame Sam game.

Turns out my speculation that Dean is a vessel is correct. I am happy to see Dean reject the Angel's, who apparently all need a refresher on what consent means. Interestingly, the devil had the softest touch, manipulation wise. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by The Companion
Typo

[gonzosgirrl]

26 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Look, I don't actually expect perspective in such a short time, but I am also having trouble watching the blame Sam game.

Not even for Sam drinking the demon while her vessel screamed for mercy?

Dean didn't know breaking while being tortured in Hell, which at that point he had every reason to believe would go on for eternity, was breaking a seal. Fine, Sam didn't know killing Lilith was either, but he chose each and every step on the path that lead to it, despite all the warnings that he was doing the wrong thing. Dean, on the other hand, was doing all he could to try to stop him. And let's not forget that Sam started the blood drinking, not to save the world from Lucifer, not even to 'save the meatsuits' from the demon knife,  but for personal vengeance.

They were both played, but I just can't reconcile comparing the two things. ETA: Just because Sam was 'ultimately right' doesn't change his intentions or any of the actions he took. He had no idea.

Spoiler

Just wait for 5x05 when Sam tells Dean why he really let Ruby lead him by the nose (and lower regions).

Edited December 2, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

he chose each and every step on the path that lead to it, despite all the warnings that he was doing the wrong thing.

Everyone, from Dean and Bobby to Chuck, Cas and Pamela on her deathbed, told Sam *not* to do it, that it would lead to bad things, that it was a "slippery slope."  In fact, the only one who was encouraging Sam was a demon, whether he believed she was helpful or not.  That was all on Sam, believing that he was right and everyone else was wrong, and refusing to listen to anyone who disagreed with him.  That's the blame I put, not on breaking the seal itself.  And even if it was the demon blood that gave him that sense of importance, again, it was his choice to drink and *continue to drink it* even when he knew he was crossing the line.  

Actually, my take on Dean's reaction here was not so much anger and blame about breaking the seal as this:

DEAN: I tried, Sammy. I mean, I really tried. But I just can't keep pretending that everything's all right. Because it's not. And it's never going to be. You chose a demon over your own brother—

SAM rolls his eyes.

DEAN: —and look what happened.

SAM: I would give anything—anything—to take it all back.

DEAN: I know you would. And I know how sorry you are. I do. But, man...you were the one that I depended on the most. And you let me down in ways that I can't even... (DEAN pauses, struggling for words.)  I'm just—I'm having a hard time forgiving and forgetting here. You know?

IMO, it was the betrayal that hurt Dean most. The result just made things worse.  

[Aeryn13]

49 minutes ago, The Companion said:

This drives me insane. And we have seen it as Bobby's standard protocol as well. What they should have done was have Bobby do his standard holy water test. Then the answer would be that the demon didn't use holy water. There is really no excuse not to do frequent holy water testing. It isn't hard to make.

I didn't comment on the finale thread because I rolled on through (no cliffhangers when binging) but the threat pretty much covered what I was thinking. Looking at it continued in this episode, I feel like a total outlier because I feel like Dean is completely ignoring his own culpability. Ultimately, Sam was actually right. He was the only one who could take down Lilith. It just turns out doing so was a bad thing. Both got manipulated. 

Beyond that, I am not sure Dean gets to act like Sam caused the apocalypse while ignoring that he jumpstarted it. Just as he didn't realize he was breaking the first seal, Sam didn't realize he was breaking the last. Look, I don't actually expect perspective in such a short time, but I am also having trouble watching the blame Sam game.

Turns out my speculation that Dean is a vessel is correct. I am happy to see Dean reject the Angel's, who apparently all need a refresher on what consent means. Interestingly, the devil had the softest touch, manipulation wise. 

I found Sam to be so obnoxiously smug and full of himself in Season 4, I actually expected a lot more catharsis for it in Season 5. To me there is a difference between being literally tortures into doing something and doing it because your current ego-hyper buttering you up feels good to you. When Ruby told him how she led him around in the Season 4 Finale, I thought: can I get another reading on the "stronger, smarter, better" line here, Sam? You got topped from the bottom, you idiot. And pretty much, as he later says, he wants that.

[BabySpinach]

If Dean didn't submit, he would have continued to be ripped apart for all eternity until he eventually did.

Meanwhile, Sam gets his ego stroked by his demonic paramour and that, plus his desire for revenge, is all that's needed to send him down a rabbit hole which culminates in the draining of a possessed human begging for mercy to cap off an entire year of escalating bad choices. 

Sam's breaking of the seal is not the issue, it was how he acted throughout the season. He called his brother, the brother who went to Hell FOR HIM, weak because he was traumatized by the experience! In what conceivable reality is that acceptable?

It was about the journey, not the destination, and it's not particularly hard to see why some would sympathize a lot more with Dean's circumstances than Sam's.

ETA: Also, any "choice" made under torture automatically disqualifies it as an actual choice by any standard of sound mind and judgement. And what is more likely, Dean genuinely enjoying inflicting pain on people, or Dean "enjoying" it as a coping mechanism along with his relief for the end of his own decades of suffering?

Edited December 2, 2019 by BabySpinach

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Everyone, from Dean and Bobby to Chuck, Cas and Pamela on her deathbed, told Sam *not* to do it, that it would lead to bad things, that it was a "slippery slope."  In fact, the only one who was encouraging Sam was a demon, whether he believed she was helpful or not.  That was all on Sam, believing that he was right and everyone else was wrong, and refusing to listen to anyone who disagreed with him.  That's the blame I put, not on breaking the seal itself.  And even if it was the demon blood that gave him that sense of importance, again, it was his choice to drink and *continue to drink it* even when he knew he was crossing the line.  

Actually, my take on Dean's reaction here was not so much anger and blame about breaking the seal as this:

DEAN: I tried, Sammy. I mean, I really tried. But I just can't keep pretending that everything's all right. Because it's not. And it's never going to be. You chose a demon over your own brother—

SAM rolls his eyes.

DEAN: —and look what happened.

SAM: I would give anything—anything—to take it all back.

DEAN: I know you would. And I know how sorry you are. I do. But, man...you were the one that I depended on the most. And you let me down in ways that I can't even... (DEAN pauses, struggling for words.)  I'm just—I'm having a hard time forgiving and forgetting here. You know?

IMO, it was the betrayal that hurt Dean most. The result just made things worse.  

I can definitely see that. And I agree that Sam took every wrong action. It just feels like everyone else also took some awful actions. I wonder if we would feel differently about Dean if we saw him torturing someone's soul and enjoying it (as he confessed). Where is the anger at the angels who actively kept Dean from intervening. Sam and Dean were both caught in this game. The demons and angels were both manipulating them. Dean's trust of the angels was just as misguided. I don't know, I think I am basically pissed at everyone. Lol.

I think your point is really valid, though. It's about the betrayal. It's about Sam failing Dean. ETA spoiler from the next episode.

Spoiler

I think to your point and the dialogue you pulled, I am actually more on board with the "I can't trust you/you betrayed me" angst over the "you caused the apocalypse" angst, and I am glad that the direction in the next episode is more firmly into the tangible effects of Sam's actions and the broken trust/addiction parallels. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by The Companion

[Aeryn13]

18 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I can definitely see that. And I agree that Sam took every wrong action. It just feels like everyone else also took some awful actions. I wonder if we would feel differently about Dean if we saw him torturing someone's soul and enjoying it (as he confessed). Where is the anger at the angels who actively kept Dean from intervening. Sam and Dean were both caught in this game. The demons and angels were both manipulating them. Dean's trust of the angels was just as misguided. I don't know, I think I am basically pissed at everyone. Lol.

I think your point is really valid, though. It's about the betrayal. It's about Sam failing Dean.

I still consider the ten years Dean was made to torture as torture on him as well. Just of the psycological kind. And after 30 years of constant pain the mere absence of pain would already feel joyful. So when Dean and his guilt complex go on about how he enjoyed it, I'm like "dude, you are not a reliable narrator here, that would be for 1000 shrinks to figure out".

So no I wouldn't feel differently at all if I saw it happen. The only real torturer with real power and real satisfaction there was apparently Alistair.

[The Companion]

25 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

If Dean didn't submit, he would have continued to be ripped apart for all eternity until he eventually did.

Meanwhile, Sam gets his ego stroked by his demonic paramour and that, plus his desire for revenge, is all that's needed to send him down a rabbit hole which culminates in the draining of a possessed human begging for mercy to cap off an entire year of escalating bad choices. 

Sam's breaking of the seal is not the issue, it was how he acted throughout the season. He called his brother, the brother who went to Hell FOR HIM, weak because he was traumatized by the experience! In what conceivable reality is that acceptable?

It was about the journey, not the destination, and it's not particularly hard to see why some would sympathize a lot more with Dean's circumstances than Sam's.

ETA: Also, any "choice" made under torture automatically disqualifies it as an actual choice by any standard of sound mind and judgement. And what is more likely, Dean genuinely enjoying inflicting pain on people, or Dean "enjoying" it as a coping mechanism along with his relief for the end of his own decades of suffering?

I see you are working with a different definition of choice/consent than the angels. 😆

I didn't mean to equate the two. The actions of each are definitely distinguishable, as are the factors driving them.