S01.E20: Civil Forfeiture

[Athena]

Did you know police can just take your stuff if they suspect it's involved in a crime? They can! It’s a shady process called “civil asset forfeiture,” and it would make for a weird episode of Law and Order.

[VCRTracking]

Frickin' cops. I'm speechless.

 

The Jeff Goldblum outtakes are even funnier.

[Fremde Frau]

I was half-expecting there to be a crossover joke in there somewhere with Jordan Klepper.

 

That ad was the most perfect thing.

[attica]

If I were an ambulance chasing, er, enterprising lawyer, I'd start putting up billboards advertising my services in Civ Forfeit cases. That's just a thing looking for torts.

 

Eames! Cousin Mickey! Nichols! Profaci! That's some grade-A L&O right there.

 

BriWi did not sound thrilled at the prospect of a fortnight in Kazakhstan. Don't much blame him.

Edited October 6, 2014 by attica

[Traveller519]

I'd heard Oslo had pulled out, but I didn't know China and Kazakhstan were the only remaining bidders. Ugh, the thought of three straight Asian time zoned Winter Olympics just seems so drab. So many early mornings-late nights!

[iMonrey]

Damn, sometimes this show is just depressing. I mean, they did a fantastic job on the civil forefeiture piece, but it's depressing! Stuff like this makes me think, every person in the country should be required to watch this piece just so they realize what's going on and demand a stop to it.

 

Good God, Jeff Goldblum is so old. I feel so old now.

[Hanahope]

Sounds like the IOC really has a case of entitlementitist, beyond FIFA levels even.  I can see where a country would just not want to deal with all those demands, especially given most of the world's economic problems.

 

My oldest daughter has been asking me for years why Columbus Day is still a thing.  I totally agree with her.

 

I've read about the whole civil forfeiture law and it is disgusting.  I remember as a kid being told about this sort of thing happening in Mexico, at least the taking money from drivers.  Sad to hear its now in the US and even worse with houses.  I've read where people show up in "court" to fight it, but when the prosecuting attorney sees that someone has shown up, they ask for a delay, which is always granted.  They keep doing that until the day the person doesn't show up in court to fight and then its default judgment.  Ordinary working people can only take so many days off work.  Good for John bringing this practice to light.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Hanahope

[peeayebee]

I think I may have read the same article as you. I was glad to see John devote so much time to it. It really demands reform.

 

Loved the entire show. The bit about Columbus Day was great. I don't know if that animated bit started out being a real children's cartoon for school use before it turned factual and bloody, but it was good.

 

I can't believe the Winter Olympics is down to Beijing and Wherever, Kazhitstan (which I need to learn to spell). Loved John putting in the show's name for the Olympics, including lots of Coke and the two mascots. One thing I didn't like was his jab at Fresca. That's my favorite soft drink. 

[dcalley]

"How is Columbus Day still a thing?" "We'll see you in two weeks!" Hmmm.

[attica]

Fresca's in my top two fizzy bevs, I have to say. Less cloyingly sweet than the lemon-limes; makes a better mixer. (I'm auditioning it this fall mixed with apple cider. Not bad, although I'm still monkeying with the proportions.)

 

My job never had C-Day as a day off for years and years. And then one year, when 7/4 ended up in the middle of the week, making a 4-day weekend impractical, some of (i.e. me) lobbied successfully for the switch to the fall holiday. I'm really glad about it, too. One needs a break between Labor Day and T-G.

 

What happens to the houses seized? Do cops move in, or do they flip 'em?

[Dandesun]

Is it possible to do something that's not the Olympics? What would happen if the nations just went 'Yeah... not so much with this shit anymore' and did a completely different sort of Games... giving the athletes their chance to shine but giving a gigantic Fuck You to the IOC... who has more than earned it over the years. (FIFA's in the same boat.)

 

My mother, sister and brother in law went to Norway last year and they loved it so much. To me, it seems that if you've become so demanding and annoying as to make Norway go 'This isn't worth it' time to rethink... especially if the only two remaining options are China and Khazakstan. Those are not good options. And don't the Olympics wind up being rather like FIFA where the Olympics benefits from where they are held rather than the city they are held in?

 

The Civil Forfeiture depressed the hell out of me... although the stuff with L&O and Jeff Goldblum berating a pile of money were funny. But not nearly funny enough to take away from what a mess Civil Forfeiture is. Legalized robbery. Awesome.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Is it possible to do something that's not the Olympics? What would happen if the nations just went 'Yeah... not so much with this shit anymore' and did a completely different sort of Games... giving the athletes their chance to shine but giving a gigantic Fuck You to the IOC... who has more than earned it over the years. (FIFA's in the same boat.)

 

There were the Goodwill Games back in the 80/90s/early 2000s -- 5 Summer and 1 Winter edition spread over 15 years.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwill_Games

Edited October 6, 2014 by ottoDbusdriver

[dcalley]

Here's the Washington Post article John referred to.

 

One of those firms created a private intelligence network...that enabled police nationwide to share detailed reports about American motorists...including their Social Security numbers, addresses and identifying tattoos, as well as hunches about which drivers to stop.

...

A thriving subculture of road officers on the network now competes to see who can seize the most cash and contraband, describing their exploits in the network’s chat rooms and sharing “trophy shots” of money and drugs.

...

The Post found that 298 departments and 210 task forces have seized the equivalent of 20 percent or more of their annual budgets since 2008.

[AimingforYoko]

Here's a local (Mpls.-St. Paul, MN) angle on the story.

It referenced the notorious case of the Metro Gang Strike Force, which repeatedly abused its forfeiture authority and cashed in on the proceeds from 2005 to 2009.

That was a big story here five years ago. You give people that much power, they're going to abuse it, period.

[SeanC]

If I were an ambulance chasing, er, enterprising lawyer, I'd start putting up billboards advertising my services in Civ Forfeit cases. That's just a thing looking for torts.

The biggest problem is that with most civil forfeiture cases the amounts involved simply aren't worth litigating over.  Even something like $5000 will almost certainly cost you more than that in legal fees, and costs provisions for these cases aren't generous (indeed, costs provisions seldom are).

[b2H]

Do the same thing as they do in some of the other civil suits - no pay until you win and then we take 15% or whatever.

 

I think if the police and other civil authorities start seeing the bright light shined on this issue, it'll happen far less on a random basis and revert back to the original intent.

 

The other moral of the story - if you have a deal going like the guy with the car on E-bay, don't be carrying any huge amount of cash.  There are other ways of paying for things and a lot of folks barely deal with cash anymore (my daughter and son-in-law carry a debit card which they use for everything - there's little cash in the house).  Get creative with the instruments available but don't be carrying cash,

[dusang]

Do the same thing as they do in some of the other civil suits - no pay until you win and then we take 15% or whatever.

 

I think if the police and other civil authorities start seeing the bright light shined on this issue, it'll happen far less on a random basis and revert back to the original intent.

 

The other moral of the story - if you have a deal going like the guy with the car on E-bay, don't be carrying any huge amount of cash.  There are other ways of paying for things and a lot of folks barely deal with cash anymore (my daughter and son-in-law carry a debit card which they use for everything - there's little cash in the house).  Get creative with the instruments available but don't be carrying cash,

That's one moral, except for the part where we're law abiding citizens living in a free and fair society.

[Mindymoo]

I watched a "Drugs, Inc." episode that briefly touched on the civil forfeiture, and people in Tennessee started just driving around with their large amounts of cash on pre-paid debit cards so the cops wouldn't steal that from them at traffic stops. But, lo and behold, the police took them too.

[ajsnaves]

There were stories recently about people going into jails to bail people out, the jail would then seize the cash, keep it, and not release the person being bailed out. All because some drug dog sniffed cocaine on the cash.  Completely ignoring the fact that all cash in this county has trace amounts of cocaine powder on it unless it just came from the printers. And was never in any contact with any other cash, in say, a cash register.

 

What they need to do is get rid of the incentive to the departments to seize the property, the fact that the bulk of it goes to the departments.  If they want to seize the cash, it has to go towards something else, like treatment programs.

[Fremde Frau]

It seems like the police in this country are more incentivized to abuse their power than to restrain it. I cannot fathom how this happens in the same country that claims to lead the "free world." I grew up in Japan, which is not exactly the freest and fairest society, and I was a foreigner on top of that, but I never felt afraid of the police there. They were aloof rather than warm and friendly, but they were utterly and reliably professional. I never felt that they were incentivized to treat citizens and legal residents as criminals first and foremost. What in the world kind of training and testing do cops go through here?

[hincandenza]

I assume most officers in this country get their training at the prestigious Stanford University.

[Victor the Crab]

If the 2022 Winter Olympics come down to either China or Kazakhstan, then all I can say is: HA-HA! Looks good on you NBC. Maybe this is the beginning of your karma for your years of asshattery, like when you fucked over Conan O'Brien. I only hope Norway's example is the beginning of potential host nations telling the IOC to go fuck themselves until they decide to stop acting like entitled douchebags.

[Fremde Frau]

I just saw the Columbus Day video. For anyone else who might have missed it, here you go:

 

[Hanahope]

In school yesterday, my oldest daughter's class had to write an essay about Columbus, Hero or Villain.  She chose villain, bless her heart.

[lucindabelle]

Oh for he ne asks that one experiment was in 1971, long before this was a thing, and it was a psych experiment has nothing to do with education in general. As a stanford grad who is appalled at civil forfeiture I'm annoyed and kind of insulted by that random pistl you have stanford university to thank for the widespread knowledge of oublic domain and fair use by the way,,,

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/public-domain/

[dcalley]

Good news, everyone!

 

Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. on Friday barred local and state police from using federal law to seize cash, cars and other property without evidence that a crime occurred.

While police can continue to make seizures under their own state laws, the federal program was easy to use and required most of the proceeds from the seizures to go to local and state police departments. Many states require seized proceeds to go into the general fund.

--The Washington Post

[enlightenedbum]

Bumping this because New Mexico banned the practice today.  NYT link from yesterday but Gov. Martinez signed the bill today.

[OneWhoLurks]

Quote

 

Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan on May 19 became the latest state leader to sign contentious legislation restricting civil asset forfeiture — the process that allows police to seize and keep property suspected of being connected to illegal activity, without having to convict, or even charge, the owner with a crime.

Hogan’s signature represents a reversal for the Republican governor, who vetoed a bill on the same subject last year after buckling to pressure from high-profile law-enforcement groups. The legislature promptly overrode his veto to pass that measure and then introduced additional changes this year that limit involvement in a federal program and require authorities to annually disclose what has been seized.

The measure signed in Annapolis was one of some 50 bills floated in at least 22 states this year proposing to limit civil asset forfeiture. Nine states passed some form of reform laws, while similar measures failed in another six, according to a Center for Public Integrity review of the legislation. Seven states still have 11 bills pending.

[...]

Lee McGrath, the Institute for Justice’s legislative counsel, has proven to be a fervent and effective crusader — traveling all over the country from his Minnesota home for the past six years, armed with model legislation, a John Oliver video, copies of IJ’s pivotal report and a well-worn spiel to lawmakers. He has had a hand in at least 23 states’ legislative pushes.

 

States Caught in Tug-of-War Over Whether Cops Can Keep Your Stuff

[OneWhoLurks]

Quote

 

Law enforcement agencies in Oklahoma have a new tool that allows them to siphon money from credit cards during suspected rug stops. The Device, manufactured by Texas-based ERAD Group, works on “open loop” debit cards, like prepaid cards offered by Visa and American Express, and gives officers the ability to drain or freeze an account on the spot without the need for pesky warrants or court appearances.

“It’s scary to know that technology even exists and that government agencies are using it without an arrest, without a warrant,” state Sen. Kyle Loveless told Oklahoma Watch.

A response to a Homeland Security report that drug dealers and traffickers are increasingly reliant on prepaid cards as an alternative to transporting large amounts of cash, the Oklahoma Department of Public Safety says it just installed 16 of the devices last month, but has yet to seize any property.

[...]

But drug dealers and couriers aren’t the only ones reliant on prepaid cards, according to a 2014 survey, more than 12 million people use prepaid cards at least monthly.

ERAD devices also disproportionately affect those with a low-income.

Prepaid cardholders are likely to be younger, single, African Americans that earn less than $25,000 a year. One in seven of these cardholders received the card from employers or a government entity as nearly 40 percent of prepaid card users don’t have a bank account, a move spurred mostly by minimum balance requirements and hefty fees at some branches.

[...]

The problem won’t be going away anytime soon, either. Currently, Oklahoma law allows police and prosecutors to keep 100 percent of forfeited property, even if the rightful owner was never convicted or indicted for the crime. In fact, 70 percent of Oklahoma’s law enforcement salaries are funded by forfeitures.

[...]

According to a contract obtained by Oklahoma Watch, ERAD Group charges $5,000 for each machine and $1,500 for training on how to use the devices — a glorified card reader.

If that wasn’t enough, it also charges a processing fee of 7.7 percent on each transaction. State seizes $100,000 from a suspected drug dealer, ERAD Group pockets $7,700 in addition to the initial sale, training and any on-going need for maintenance and additional support.

In short, it’s the private prison of the online transaction world, a company that’s profiting from the misfortune caused by unlawful seizure of assets.

 

New device lets Oklahoma cops seize cash without due process

[OneWhoLurks]

Quote

 

Without ever being charged with a crime, a West Philadelphia grandmother had her home and her car confiscated because her son sold less than $200 worth of marijuana. Elizabeth Young, now 72, is just one of thousands of victims of civil forfeiture, which allows police and prosecutors to confiscate property, even if the owner has not been convicted or accused of any wrongdoing.

But on Thursday, more than seven years after her legal nightmare began, Young scored a major victory at the Pennsylvania Supreme Court. In a meticulous and unanimous decision, the court rejected the government’s confiscation, and issued more stringent safeguards for property owners. Writing for the court, Justice Debra Todd held that this ruling would ensure that “innocent property owners are not dispossessed of what may be essential possessions…without rigorous scrutiny by the courts.”

Property owners desperately needed greater protections, especially in Philadelphia, where law enforcement has confiscated over 1,000 homes, more than 3,000 vehicles and $44 million in cash over 11 years. Thanks in part to a separate, class action-lawsuit by the Institute for Justice (which also filed an amicus brief for Young’s case), Philadelphia’s “forfeiture machine” has become notorious nationwide for its abuses, and has even been showcased on CNN and Last Week Tonight with John Oliver.

 

Grandmother Who Lost Her Home Because Her Son Sold Marijuana Wins Pennsylvania Supreme Court Case

[attica]

Update yesterday out of SCOTUS. A unanimous court reined in the worst abuses of CF in the decision for Timbs v Indiana. RBG for the majority, opining that most of CF falls under the 'excessive fines' prohibition in the 8th Amendment.  Gorsuch wrote a concurrent opinion, placing the protection elsewhere, but: no matter. CF is toast.

I think we can still keep Manafort's houses, though.