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S02.E04: Woe's Hollow

juno

By juno
in Severance

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dwmarch

dwmarch

What are they so mad at Irv for? He's just helping Helly practice for the "bobbing for pineapples" activity!

I'm curious to see what the logic ends up being for this excursion. Was Lumon trying to drive the team apart? Or maybe bring them together by giving them a chance to air out their dirty laundry? In any case, epic fail on Lumon's part.

So there is a barrier that can keep an outie active during innie time. Interesting, I imagine we'll be seeing that in action again soon enough.

Helena having sex with Mark is going to be an interesting conversation with HR. Yes, she is an Egan so she presumably gets a lot of leeway but that is taking it a little far.

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Affogato

Affogato

Again the outside world is winter, cold, blue and white toned.  Milchick is trying to build his group, his floor, and maybe even be kind to them, but he isn’t good at this and should not have burned the marshmallows. Like teens our group is more interested in getting to know each other than listen to sunday school. I guess Helena doesn’t know the silly family religion, because she found it hilarious. 
 

Helena/Helly and the directing, camera, did some fine acting as we saw her change personae. I think we saw Mark reintigrate. Dylan has totally drunk the kool aid. I wonder if Irv is obliterated? They ahould have listened to him  he was more mature than them, because of the relationship with Burt.

my first thought is this opens up a lot of storylines. 

I did see the ‘inside the episode’ part but before the credits were over it took me to ted Lasso twice and Silo. It took persistence. 

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Ms Lark

Ms Lark

Poor Mark! Innie Helly R will have no memory of sleeping with him, but Outie Helena will. That will be a tough call. Plus, yikes, "I slept with an Egan!" Funny how he couldn't tell the difference...(*sigh*) guys. Let's hope she isn't knocked up!

Poor Irv. But he seems happy with the outcome. He's an odd bird and hard to read.

So much to ponder over!

 

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iMonrey

iMonrey

What in the blue dilly fuck is going on with this show? First the goat people now this weird episode? No continuity whatsoever from the ending of the last episode. Was this all some weird dream that Irv was having, or was it some sort of virtual reality game? Otherwise how were the four data miners transported out to this winter wilderness and "woken up" there? 

I am really losing patience with this show. I get the distinct impression it's just getting weirder and weirder for the sake of being weird and keeping the audience befuddled but desperate to chase their tails with myriad theories on what is happening. You know . . . sort of like Lost.

I don't know if there is an actual endgame in mind for this story or if the whole point is to just to send the audience on a wild goose chase for as long as they can make money off of it. I'm quickly losing confidence in the former.

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Affogato

Affogato

(edited)
40 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

What in the blue dilly fuck is going on with this show? First the goat people now this weird episode? No continuity whatsoever from the ending of the last episode. Was this all some weird dream that Irv was having, or was it some sort of virtual reality game? Otherwise how were the four data miners transported out to this winter wilderness and "woken up" there? 

I am really losing patience with this show. I get the distinct impression it's just getting weirder and weirder for the sake of being weird and keeping the audience befuddled but desperate to chase their tails with myriad theories on what is happening. You know . . . sort of like Lost.

I don't know if there is an actual endgame in mind for this story or if the whole point is to just to send the audience on a wild goose chase for as long as they can make money off of it. I'm quickly losing confidence in the former.

It should ve fairly obvious how they got them there.
 

The endgame is Mark becoming a whole person. Adam Scott and Stiller said this and it should be obvious that is what it will be, and will encompass all of them. Oddly, this was sort of what Lost was about. People were innies and outies as well, on the island/off the island  

It maybe depends on what you are looking for. I also love world building, so some interesting world building combined with some meaningful human drama is what I personally look for in a science fiction story.
 

I’m enjoying this. 

56 minutes ago, ddawn23 said:

Irv’s wham line of “Helly was never cruel” only makes sense if you know that Helly’s outie goes by a different name, which presumably innie Irv does not.  Kinda took me out of what should have been an amazing moment 

Name didn’t matter? He clearly meant in ie Helly, the one he knew. 

Edited by Affogato
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AstridM

AstridM

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

What in the blue dilly fuck is going on with this show? First the goat people now this weird episode? No continuity whatsoever from the ending of the last episode. Was this all some weird dream that Irv was having, or was it some sort of virtual reality game? Otherwise how were the four data miners transported out to this winter wilderness and "woken up" there? 

I am really losing patience with this show. I get the distinct impression it's just getting weirder and weirder for the sake of being weird and keeping the audience befuddled but desperate to chase their tails with myriad theories on what is happening. You know . . . sort of like Lost.

I don't know if there is an actual endgame in mind for this story or if the whole point is to just to send the audience on a wild goose chase for as long as they can make money off of it. I'm quickly losing confidence in the former.

Be careful. Comments like this are bound to attract responses that mention “vibes” 😆.

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AstridM

AstridM

17 minutes ago, AheadofStraight said:

I'm a little confused about the timeline... So Mark didn't actually reintegrate last episode then? I highly doubt he'd be sleeping with Helly if he was actually outie Mark knowing his wife is alive?? Also, their outies are ok with being away overnight for this field trip? Hmmmm, wonder what they were told!

Right? Did management buy all of the outies their coats and boots, etc?

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ombre

ombre

(edited)

I'm glad they didn't draw out the helly/Helena thing any longer. It's much more interesting to think about the implications than to have a mole all season. Helena effectively raped mark. Where do we go from there? Especially with helly now being returned! And if irv was going to get his death wish he sure made good use of it. And if course it's irv who could read his co-workers well enough to see through her. 

 

I do like the mirror between Helena and Gretchen. Gretchen seems clearly in the path to falling in love with her husband's innie and wishing he could be the one sharing her life. Helena doesn't seem to be in love with Mark but with her own innie. This person who seems to be making so much better use of her life despite only existing as a slave of lumon. What do you do with that kind of jealousy?  

 

One of the things that has quietly been in the "it's Helena" side of the balance sheet for me was the lighting. In lumon they've been showing her and mark with a much starker lighting and much higher contrast between their hair and skin than they used to. They've done the same in these other settings, too, and I think that adding these other settings (goat room, outdoors) has let them hide the amped-up contrast in plain sight. Helly always had an almost Vaseline-on-the-lens aura around her. Like Vincent minelli framing Judy garland with such care in meet me in st Louis. But this season her skin had felt paler, her hair darker, her pinks washed out. The difference between the evil witch and snow white.  And then they really went to town with that almost reflective makeup and deep eyeliner/eyeshadow in the tent scene. They've done the same to mark, whole also ramping up the age lines in his skin, making him look older, more tired. I wouldn't be surprised if his hair is also a touch darker. And his hair is so much longer than it was last season. It's a small thing but it makes the time-line of how long they were actually out of lumon (between the seasons) really confusing for me. Some people have a time-line that's basically "soooo, that wasn't five months, that was a weekend." but I keep coming back to his hair. Small stuff, all of it, but it's been so stark to me and I'm glad it was actually conveying information. 

Edited by ombre
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Affogato

Affogato

1 hour ago, AheadofStraight said:

I'm a little confused about the timeline... So Mark didn't actually reintegrate last episode then? I highly doubt he'd be sleeping with Helly if he was actually outie Mark knowing his wife is alive?? Also, their outies are ok with being away overnight for this field trip? Hmmmm, wonder what they were told!

I think we saw him reintigrate when he was with Helleana, after the sex. Time will tell. 
 

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dwmarch

dwmarch

1 hour ago, AstridM said:

Right? Did management buy all of the outies their coats and boots, etc?

Yes, they are all wearing the exact same style of coat. They are also all wearing pants which should have raised suspicion since Helly shouldn't really know what those are and should be somewhat amazed by them. Then again, this episode showed us that the innies aren't quite as child-like as we would expect them to be and they seem to know some things that definitely shouldn't be in the company handbooks.

27 minutes ago, AheadofStraight said:

So Mark didn't actually reintegrate last episode then?

Mark did reintegrate but as with Petey, it's not just combining the two identities into a single one. It's more of a process of flipping back and forth but outside of Lumon's control. Mark briefly switches back to Scout when he's knocking boots with "Helly" but I'm pretty sure he intentionally shook it off. That raises the question of what will happen when the innie and the outie don't agree on which way to go. I think every member of the team is going to struggle with this.

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ombre

ombre

7 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

That raises the question of what will happen when the innie and the outie don't agree on which way to go. I think every member of the team is going to struggle with this.

I am most curious for how Irving, who clearly has an agenda for irv, will react to being kicked out. If he is kicked out and not just put in a can for his usual shift. 

AstridM

AstridM

(edited)
1 hour ago, ombre said:

I'm glad they didn't draw out the helly/Helena thing any longer. It's much more interesting to think about the implications than to have a mole all season. Helena effectively raped mark. Where do we go from there? Especially with helly now being returned! And if irv was going to get his death wish he sure made good use of it. And if course it's irv who could read his co-workers well enough to see through her. 

 

I do like the mirror between Helena and Gretchen. Gretchen seems clearly in the path to falling in love with her husband's innie and wishing he could be the one sharing her life. Helena doesn't seem to be in love with Mark but with her own innie. This person who seems to be making so much better use of her life despite only existing as a slave of lumon. What do you do with that kind of jealousy?  

 

One of the things that has quietly been in the "it's Helena" side of the balance sheet for me was the lighting. In lumon they've been showing her and mark with a much starker lighting and much higher contrast between their hair and skin than they used to. They've done the same in these other settings, too, and I think that adding these other settings (goat room, outdoors) has let them hide the amped-up contrast in plain sight. Helly always had an almost Vaseline-on-the-lens aura around her. Like Vincent minelli framing Judy garland with such care in meet me in st Louis. But this season her skin had felt paler, her hair darker, her pinks washed out. The difference between the evil witch and snow white.  And then they really went to town with that almost reflective makeup and deep eyeliner/eyeshadow in the tent scene. They've done the same to mark, whole also ramping up the age lines in his skin, making him look older, more tired. I wouldn't be surprised if his hair is also a touch darker. And his hair is so much longer than it was last season. It's a small thing but it makes the time-line of how long they were actually out of lumon (between the seasons) really confusing for me. Some people have a time-line that's basically "soooo, that wasn't five months, that was a weekend." but I keep coming back to his hair. Small stuff, all of it, but it's been so stark to me and I'm glad it was actually conveying information. 

I don’t think it was just a weekend, but more like a week to 10 days. Definitely not 5 months.

Edited by AstridM
arc

arc

(edited)

A two day retreat? The innies finally got to experience sleep! Also, how did Mark know to fake being switched over to innie mode? He's reintegrated now, right?

Why in the world would a fourth appendix be so sacred it couldn't be allowed to the severed floor?

I was mildly interested at the Mark doppelganger, but that could've been almost any white guy in a suit. The Helly doppelganger definitely ratcheted it up a notch. Add to that Saliba (the door company guy) from ep 2 and this show has suddenly added a lot of doppelgangers recently. Anyways, are these twins clones or animatronics? Something's weird about how the actual humans need thick winter gear in this bitter cold forest but the twins just have on their regular MDR business attire.

Also, it's very obnoxiously classist how management wears a different color of winter coat than our MDR innies.

This ORTBO feels super duper culty, but Irving's already lost his faith. I don't think even this can restore it.

Ahahaha, a theremin! Miss Huang is suprisingly good at playing a notoriously difficult and finicky instrument.

I guess Mark's reintegration isn't fully complete yet? Those flashes of Gemma overlaying Helena sure indicate something's not right with Mark.

Oof, what a freaky dream sequence Irving just had.

What are we to make of the song over the closing credits? It's Tom Jobin's Wave. Surely they wanted the jarring effect of a jaunty bossa nova song, but there are plenty of those. Here are the lyrics; they seem resonant to me but nothing jumps out as most overtly the point.

Hey, Adam Jepsen was in the credits again! He briefly appeared in the season premiere as "Man in Hallway", now he's "Shadow Mark". Given the construction of the shots, they could have just had the MDR actors play their shadow selves; I choose to speculate that getting separate actors means they're building towards bringing these people back. This also reminds me of the conversation in the premiere where Dylan assumed the MDR replacements were 1:1 replacements for the regular crew.

15 hours ago, Affogato said:

I guess Helena doesn’t know the silly family religion, because she found it hilarious. 

I think she did, but was never able to laugh at it before because such things would have been conveyed in a context of immense family pressure to conform.

 

10 hours ago, iMonrey said:

No continuity whatsoever from the ending of the last episode.

Mark had reintegration hallucinations. Seems obvious enough, but I paid attention while watching.

Edited by arc
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iMonrey

iMonrey

40 minutes ago, arc said:

Mark had reintegration hallucinations. Seems obvious enough, but I paid attention while watching.

I paid attention too. But it's only "obvious enough" if you are applying your own personal theories. None of this episode made any sense. Gemma appeared on Mark's computer screen in episode 1 of this season and that was before the reintegration process. 

We don't know what the hell this episode was about. You can speculate and theorize 'til the cows come home but nothing is "obvious." Was it all a dream? A virtual reality game? How the hell did they all get out there? Nothing so far has led us to believe Lumon can just zombie-fie the outies or innies and put them somewhere out in the wilderness and wake them up. 

Why have a TV and VCR tell them what to do when Milchick is physically there with them in the same location? And what the hell is powering the TV and VCR? 

Mysteries upon mysteries upon mysteries. Look, I get it. Some people love the ride. "I don't know what's going on but I'm enjoying the ride!" The mantra of Lost fans who to this day think Lost was the greatest TV ever. 

Being taken for a ride is a colloquialism for being duped. I personally do not enjoy being taken for a ride. The makers of Lost just kept throwing out random shit and laughed their asses off watching the fans chase their tales trying to figure it all out when in the end none of it meant anything. The numbers were just numbers, they didn't mean anything. Nor did whatever book Sawyer was reading. 

At this point I half expect this whole thing to end with Ricken looking into a snow globe and imagining the whole thing.

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Dev F

Dev F

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I paid attention too. But it's only "obvious enough" if you are applying your own personal theories. None of this episode made any sense. Gemma appeared on Mark's computer screen in episode 1 of this season and that was before the reintegration process.

Wait, when did that happen? During the get-to-know-you game, Mark has a memory flash of seeing Gemma's photo during the OTC, and at the end of the episode there's a flash cut from Mark doing data refinement on his computer to a different computer screen showing his efforts somehow updating readouts related to Ms. Casey, but there's no indication that Mark himself is having the kind of memory bleed-through we see in this episode.

Quote

We don't know what the hell this episode was about. You can speculate and theorize 'til the cows come home but nothing is "obvious." Was it all a dream? A virtual reality game?

I think we were obviously meant to wonder whether it was a dream or illusion to begin with, but by the end it was pretty clearly something that was happening in the real world. Why would Milchick need to expose Helly to save her life if she weren't actually drowning?

Quote

How the hell did they all get out there? Nothing so far has led us to believe Lumon can just zombie-fie the outies or innies and put them somewhere out in the wilderness and wake them up.

I assume they just tell their outties where to go and then activate the innies when they're all in position. That would explain why they're all split up at the beginning, because Lumon would want to make sure the outties weren't in contact with one another.

All of the above seems to be reading more weirdness and ambiguity into the series than I think it's actually giving us. I find it pretty straightforward compared to most mystery box shows, and to me none of it really feels like nonsense they're just throwing at the wall.

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Affogato

Affogato

7 hours ago, Dev F said:

Wait, when did that happen? During the get-to-know-you game, Mark has a memory flash of seeing Gemma's photo during the OTC, and at the end of the episode there's a flash cut from Mark doing data refinement on his computer to a different computer screen showing his efforts somehow updating readouts related to Ms. Casey, but there's no indication that Mark himself is having the kind of memory bleed-through we see in this episode.

I think we were obviously meant to wonder whether it was a dream or illusion to begin with, but by the end it was pretty clearly something that was happening in the real world. Why would Milchick need to expose Helly to save her life if she weren't actually drowning?

I assume they just tell their outties where to go and then activate the innies when they're all in position. That would explain why they're all split up at the beginning, because Lumon would want to make sure the outties weren't in contact with one another.

All of the above seems to be reading more weirdness and ambiguity into the series than I think it's actually giving us. I find it pretty straightforward compared to most mystery box shows, and to me none of it really feels like nonsense they're just throwing at the wall.

Oddly I assumed that they interrupted the process mid elevator ride and transported them to the location and then woke them up.  Or had the innies put on the outfits, employed a protocol and erased the memory.
Probably just told the outies they work late. I hope Irving has someone who takes care of his dog. 
 

funny how that one review broke open the ‘mystery box’ phrase and now people can’t stop using it!
 

We are learning about the world as the characters do, 
 

 

gail56

gail56

LOL! I watched the little after show and they said no one would have guessed Helly was Helena the whole time until they did a rewatch. Most of us here knew right away, we picked up the clues, though you can say we were not absolutely sure.

Milchick did say the outies gave permission for the retreat, so I think the outies were brought out there [as someone else suggested] and then activated the innies. Except for Helena of course.

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desertflower

desertflower

(edited)

I’m of the opinion that Helena decided to go undercover because she’s fascinated by/jealous of her innie and wants to experience the feelings she sees Helly having. I’m sure being raised in a cult she never had that independence and passion that Helly seems to have. It’s really an interesting concept, like if she had not been raised in the cult maybe she would have grown up to be like Helly. 

 Turturro was fantastic in this episode.

Milchick’s cheery “the end!” after reading that horrible story made me laugh out loud. Classic Milchick.

Edited by desertflower
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Starchild

Starchild

(edited)
17 hours ago, ombre said:

I am most curious for how Irving, who clearly has an agenda for irv, will react to being kicked out. If he is kicked out and not just put in a can for his usual shift. 

That cunning little smile of his at the end. I wonder if he's realizing that this might send him down to the testing floor that his outie has been obsessively painting, and that his innie just learned more about from that O&D lady.

The severance logistics here are interesting. We have heard of 4 procedures now:

  • severance itself, which splits them -- we initially believed some field they move through in the elevator is what switches them from one version of themselves to the other
  • reintegration -- Lumon has told the world it's not possible, but not only has it been partially achieved outside of Lumon, but Lumon recognized signs of it in Petey's chip, so maybe Lumon is lying about that -- kind of like developing an antidote for a poison but not telling anyone it exists so you can save it for yourself
  • overtime contingency, which allows the innie to perceive the outside world -- and now we know this switch can happen outside the Lumon building, so proximity to the facility is not required
  • Glasgow block, which appears to have the opposite effect of the overtime contingency

Now what exactly is this last one? The name suggests that it is temporarily blocking something, but what?

Is it blocking severance? If so, was Helena not just experiencing the reverse of the overtime contingency but actually a temporary reintegration? Did she remember both "lives" while the block was on? I wonder.

But, why apply severance + OT contingency + Glasgow block to allow Helena to interact with the innies outside? Wouldn't it be easier to just not apply the severance field to her in the first place?

We know that the OT contingency field is targeted. It would appear that the Glasgow block is also targeted, since only Helly was overridden by it.

So I wonder if the severance field is a blanket field that affects everyone with a chip that's in range of it. If so, if they can convince everyone that it's beneficial to be severed, then they can control the world with it, while using the OT contingency and Glasgow block as precision tools. 

Finally, at this point does it make any sense for Helena to remain severed (especially if reintegration is possible)? They can't trust her now, even as Helly, since she becomes Helena every night and can conspire with their jailers.

Edited by Starchild
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aghst

aghst

Seems like the Outies had to consent to this excursion -- OUTBO? -- while the Innies didn't.

The theory is that Mark's reintegration isn't complete yet.  So he's still Innie or Outie.

Now we learn that Lemon can literally flip the switch individually on the severed characters.  That would have to be some satellite or mobile network connections to always control the implants, regardless of where the severed people are.

Yet Milchick has to scream into a walkie talkie to presumably someone in the control room to turn on/off the implant.

So they wake up and they have old man Irv climb up a cliff, after walking across a frozen lake.  You heard the ice cracking as he walked yet the bigger danger may have been him trying to climb up the icy terrain up to the cliff.

The doppelgängers, at least in the credits, are different actors, not the same actors shot separately.  So they're not suppose to be identical to the main characters.

But this is suppose to be some reward, seeing the world's tallest waterfall, glamping (with heated tents and luxurious meats) and storytelling with roasted marshmellows?

No wonder Helena mocked the story.  Though Milchick must know that's the boss's daughter so why did he get pissed?  After those blackface paintings, maybe he shouldn't have reverence for Kier mythology.

Oh well, they didn't even have graham crackers so just those brick marshmellows alone didn't look that appetizing.

Mark is suppose to believe that he's sleeping with Helly.  But it was Helena who's been making goo goo eyes at him, even when they went on their little trek to the goat room.  He never met Helena, at least knowingly.

I forget Irv's dream.  His motivation seems to be to get out.  So by threatening Helena, he knew he'd be banished.  But maybe that's okay with him, he'd rather be outside stalking Burt?

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Dev F

Dev F

2 hours ago, aghst said:

Now we learn that Lemon can literally flip the switch individually on the severed characters.  That would have to be some satellite or mobile network connections to always control the implants, regardless of where the severed people are.

Yet Milchick has to scream into a walkie talkie to presumably someone in the control room to turn on/off the implant.

We already knew that from the Overtime Contingency, right? And it doesn't seem like a huge technological leap; we all have computers in our pockets that are capable of receiving communications and commands regardless of where we are.

I suspect that most of the specific limitations on the technology have less to do with what's technically feasible and more to do with security considerations—making sure that severed employees are isolated from non-Lumon outies or any other elements of the outside world they're not supposed to know about before bringing their innies online. So it's not that it would be impossible to control the chips from nearby, it's that it would be a security risk for the technology to be accessed that freely.

Quote

So they wake up and they have old man Irv climb up a cliff, after walking across a frozen lake.  You heard the ice cracking as he walked yet the bigger danger may have been him trying to climb up the icy terrain up to the cliff.

I suspect that Lumon had more control over the environment than the innies knew—that there were safeguards in place to make sure they didn't fall through the ice and drown or slide off the side of a cliff. 

It also may not be a coincidence that the employee they placed in the most apparent danger was Irving, whose outie is a military veteran and has presumably undergone survival training. So Lumon may have placed him in those situations knowing that he was instinctively equipped to handle them without hurting himself. ("Your outie is strong. [. . .] Your outie is splendid and can swim gracefully and well.")

Quote

But this is suppose to be some reward, seeing the world's tallest waterfall, glamping (with heated tents and luxurious meats) and storytelling with roasted marshmellows?

It's a combination of a reward and a hazing session. It's meant to make them feel honored, scared, thrilled, and morally chastised all at the same time.

Quote

No wonder Helena mocked the story.  Though Milchick must know that's the boss's daughter so why did he get pissed?  

I think he's pissed because she's the boss's daughter. If an actual innie were to burst out laughing, it would be an innocent emotional reaction, but Helena knows that these lessons are designed to keep the innies in line, so she's wilfully pissing all over Milchick's efforts.

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arc

arc

6 hours ago, Starchild said:

Is it blocking severance? If so, was Helena not just experiencing the reverse of the overtime contingency but actually a temporary reintegration? Did she remember both "lives" while the block was on? I wonder.

Lumon's Board was 100% convinced reintegration was impossible. That argues strongly against the Glasgow Block allowing a temporary reintegration. More likely it blocked the innie.

3 hours ago, aghst said:

Now we learn that Lemon can literally flip the switch individually on the severed characters.

Yeah, that's what the OTC has always been. When Dylan himself was OTC'ed, they only turned his innie on, and not everyone's. Similarly, when MDR had their unauthorized OTC, Dylan went through the computer and only selected his MDR compatriots for it.

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Just to toss this in—maybe it is a holodeck. 

I really don't like this idea. But I have seen it floated around on other discussion sites, pointing out Petey's map from s1 included an area in the lower right labeled "team building". And it would explain how Lumon let them "outside" without risking them contacting outsiders.

But I think it would have been safer to deactivate the holodeck (or whatever) than actually turn off the Glasgow Block. Milchick's immediate concern in the moment was to save Helena's life; if it was a fully safe and controlled environment, then Helena shouldn't have been in real danger. So maybe it is not a holodeck but an actually existing fake park constructed underground, with a real pond deep enough to drown someone and a frozen lake easily eight football fields in area by itself, though that would be a _vast_ undertaking and many orders of magnitude beyond the scope anything else we've seen so far, even O&D's gigantic back room or the Perpetuity Wing.

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Turkeypotpie

Turkeypotpie

On 2/7/2025 at 12:33 PM, iMonrey said:

What in the blue dilly fuck is going on with this show? First the goat people now this weird episode? No continuity whatsoever from the ending of the last episode. Was this all some weird dream that Irv was having, or was it some sort of virtual reality game? Otherwise how were the four data miners transported out to this winter wilderness and "woken up" there? 

I am really losing patience with this show. I get the distinct impression it's just getting weirder and weirder for the sake of being weird and keeping the audience befuddled but desperate to chase their tails with myriad theories on what is happening. You know . . . sort of like Lost.

I don't know if there is an actual endgame in mind for this story or if the whole point is to just to send the audience on a wild goose chase for as long as they can make money off of it. I'm quickly losing confidence in the former.

Agree! If I wanted weird shit piled on other weird shit with no rhyme or reason, I’d go back to sleep and keep dreaming. I was hoping this would all lead somewhere but I’m also losing confidence. 

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Dev F

Dev F

3 hours ago, Starchild said:

Are we sure about this? Didn't we see in his apartment when his innie woke up that his father was in the military (Navy I think)? I think it's still unclear that Irv was too. Unless I missed something.

Sorry, it's been a while since I've seen the season 1 finale, so I forget exactly what it established about Irving's background. But there are pretty strong hints that Irv has military training; people have called attention to his use of military time—saying "eleven hundred" when the other characters would say "eleven o'clock"—and his comment that he brought Rickon's book to Mark instead of Milchick because "I thought it best not to break the chain of command."

I'm also seeing that an earlier draft of the season 1 finale did confirm that Irv was in the navy, when Irv explores his outie's home . . .

He opens the closet - we recognize some of his LUMON SUITS and then on the floor is a MILITARY TRUNK with a lock on it. 

Realizes he’s got his keys in his pocket... pulls them out and sees a small key that looks like it might fit... He tries it and the trunk opens.

Inside he finds a folded up ARMY BLANKET. He pulls it out and a SMALL PHOTO flutters to the ground. Irving picks it up and looks at it: it’s a photo of IRVING as a YOUNG MAN with his FATHER, both in NAVY UNIFORMS...

. . . but in the finished episode, it's just a old photo of his dad in uniform.

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Affogato

Affogato

10 hours ago, arc said:

 


But I think it would have been safer to deactivate the holodeck (or whatever) than actually turn off the Glasgow Block. Milchick's immediate concern in the moment was to save Helena's life; if it was a fully safe and controlled environment, then Helena shouldn't have been in real danger. So maybe it is not a holodeck but an actually existing fake park constructed underground, with a real pond deep enough to drown someone and a frozen lake easily eight football fields in area by itself, though that would be a _vast_ undertaking and many orders of magnitude beyond the scope anything else we've seen so far, even O&D's gigantic back room or the Perpetuity Wing.

If they deactivated the environment they would have ruined the experience of the innies, which would have been bad for production.  Even more than revealing Helena. The nothing but a pack of cards contingency. Bad news. 
 

A holideck or controlled environment might explain why Irving didn’t freeze when he fell asleep (which I thought might happen). 

 

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peachmangosteen

peachmangosteen

Quote

I was hoping this would all lead somewhere but I’m also losing confidence.

I think it will lead somewhere, as Lost did, but it's just a matter of whether or not it leads where you wanted/thought it would lol.

The doppelganger shit in this episode was so creepy. When it was Mark, it looked enough like him that I thought they were just having the actors play them but then Helly/Helena looked off and the Dylan one looked like someone else's body with a print out of Dylan's face on it. Freaky. Plus, the way they were all moving, it seemed like maybe they were like AI/VR or something. I also saw someone mention animatronics like from the museum thing they had in season 1, which would make sense I guess.

I also thought it was interesting Irving's doppelganger never lead them anywhere, although I guess perhaps they could have shot that scene and then just cut it for time or something not significant to the story.

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RedHawk

RedHawk

On 2/8/2025 at 11:41 AM, gail56 said:

LOL! I watched the little after show and they said no one would have guessed Helly was Helena the whole time until they did a rewatch. Most of us here knew right away, we picked up the clues, though you can say we were not absolutely sure.

I was sure from the beginning of S2 that we were seeing Helena pretending to be Helly. Thought that was clearly set up from the S1 final episode, although they played with it a little in each S2 episode to make us forget occasionally. 

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RedHawk

RedHawk

(edited)

And people said nothing happened in this past season of "The Bear"! 

I thought this episode was merely ok. I also felt strongly that "nothing happened".

Yes, Helly was outed (heh) in the end but the whole team-building thing was annoying because it was overdone in every way. I'm already bored by the kooky religious family and the Lynchian goat scenes. It's gone from deeply intriguing to convoluted and almost silly.

For me comparisons to "Lost" are apt. "Lost" became a big mess that dragged on and on after the exciting and clever episodes were long past. I hate to see this show going downhill so soon. 

Edited by RedHawk
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iMonrey

iMonrey

On 2/8/2025 at 10:41 AM, gail56 said:

LOL! I watched the little after show and they said no one would have guessed Helly was Helena the whole time until they did a rewatch. Most of us here knew right away, we picked up the clues, though you can say we were not absolutely sure.

Yeah - I was fairly gobsmacked they actually thought nobody would guess it was Helena. Just about everyone who watched the show at least suspected it from the jump. That's another red flag, to me, that the writers/producers think themselves far more clever than they actually are.

In fact I find those "behind the scenes" clips kind of annoying. It's just the writers, directors and some of the actors essentially "mansplaining" what we just watched in the episode, like we didn't get it and needed them to tell us. And not actually explaining the story, just reiterating what the characters are feeling and thinking in the given moments. "Mark is feeling really sad in this moment." Shit like that. Uh, master of the bleeding obvious, there.

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sadie

sadie

I feel I am being “Lost”ed and I don’t like it.

i watched After The Episode and the one show runner basically said “I knew I wanted to stick them out in the wilderness cuz I thought it would be cool”. Which basically said to me on some level they are just making it up as they go. Lost loved just doing “cool” stuff like polar bears and smoke monsters but in the end there was nothing explained other than, you know, purgatory.

Since I guess we’re gonna put more thought into what’s happening than the actual writers, here’s my theory. Helena wanted to have sex with Mark but there’s really no easy way to do that in the offices so she decided they would all go into the woods, complete with an overnight stay and some comfy tents with heat and “whoola”, she got to have sex with Mark. I will say the actress did a great job revealing facial expressions and yes, we all knew she was Helena thru the whole ep.

And I haven’t figured out some of the lore here. If they’ve never seen a waterfall as Milchek explained in ATE “I said it was the worlds tallest waterfall because they wouldn’t know any different”, so huh? It implies the innies don’t bring ANY outside knowledge with them, but that can’t be true or they’d all be slobbering idiots on the inside that don’t have basic speech. I feel like the writers want to have it both ways and when you really pull that thread it falls apart.

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JenE4

JenE4

(edited)

I spent most of the episode trying to decide whether this was supposedly before Mark was reintegrated. But I guess the flash of Helly/Gemma showed us that the reintegration isn’t a light switch, and he was Innie Mark for most of the retreat. Conversely, this was Helena fully reintegrated the entire time. But for all intents and purposes, this was Outie Mark and Helena still choosing to sleep together, despite also knowing their outside lives, and not just the innies who know nothing else but each other. Interesting that Helly told us she didn’t like who she was on the outside. Between that and the way she was making a mockery of the origin stories (“spilling his lineage” being masterbation and Dieter’s ridiculous transformation to becoming the wilderness), rather than Helena going undercover, which I assumed until this point, Helly is now the primary personality. She’s an Eagon but she’s not buying into this ridiculous cult. Though I guess with this story that they were pretty much eating up until Helly pointed out how ridiculous it was, in addition to all of the ridiculous stories we’ve heard in prior episodes, I can see why they thought Ricken’s book was so inspirational—it wasn’t any more ridiculous but also about finding yourself. For those who didn’t watch the segment at the end of the episode, the producers did confirm that Irv was correct and this has been Helena reintegrated since returning from the OTC. The video above with the hi kids what’s for dinner didn’t quite give us the “significance” as they didn’t give the context that Helena didn’t act like Helly, as the gang may have rolled their eyes and teased Irv, Helena just looked caught off guard, so this was the final confirmation Irv needed that it wasn’t Helly. Though, I’m not sure how the heck he made the leap that she’s an Eagon aside from him making the assumption that ONLY an Eagon would be allowed to reintegrate, mentioning who would have that power. But WHY would Irv view a reintegrated Eagon as an enemy rather than the great honor he would typically see meeting an Eagon is? Though, I suppose Helly being and Eagon AND making a mockery of his “religion” for all intents and purposes was just too much for Irv. He needed to defend Keir’s honor. Though, even with Irv banished to the Outside, Dylan still believes in everything he heard Irv said and will presumably pick up the mantle to fight for his only friend now being banished, as now HE is all alone, like Helly had teased Irv about being alone without Bert. Mark and Helly have each other Dylan has nobody.

Edited by JenE4
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maddie965

maddie965

6 hours ago, sadie said:

Since I guess we’re gonna put more thought into what’s happening than the actual writers, here’s my theory. Helena wanted to have sex with Mark but there’s really no easy way to do that in the offices so she decided they would all go into the woods, complete with an overnight stay and some comfy tents with heat and “whoola”, she got to have sex with Mark. I will say the actress did a great job revealing facial expressions and yes, we all knew she was Helena thru the whole ep.

My thoughts exactly. Helena decided to create the whole scenario, and Mikchick just came up with the details. 

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I do think the authors know where they are going with this. 

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lovett1979

lovett1979

4 hours ago, JenE4 said:

But WHY would Irv view a reintegrated Eagon as an enemy rather than the great honor he would typically see meeting an Eagon is? Though, I suppose Helly being and Eagon AND making a mockery of his “religion” for all intents and purposes was just too much for Irv. He needed to defend Keir’s honor.

After Burt is "retired" in Season 1, Irv comes back to MDR and says "let's burn it all down" (or something to that effect) and that's when the OTC plan starts to come together. So I don't think Irv is the same true believer he was at the beginning of the series.

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