S08.E05: Time Heist

[Terrafamilia]

An enjoyable enough piece of Who fluff. As usual, I just wish there were fewer fridge-logic moments and headscratchers. Not to mention it had another rather questionable declaration. Last week was the dream that everybody had. This week was not trusting when your own eyes are staring back at you. Sure, when it is some evil twin or sinister lookalike you didn't know existed who startles you with a bottle of ether but how often does that happen?

As a caper it suffered in comparison to real caper shows. This is supposed to be the most secure bank in the universe but it has those air ducts or access hatches that allow you to waltz right into the most secure Private Vault to meet the Boss.

It was also one of those episodes where I wished I would care enough to learn how to turn on the closed captions.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Terrafamilia

[Meredith Quill]

I do wonder why all Moffat NuWho female villains have the same look to them - Madam Kovarian, Missy, Karabraxos. Not exactly much difference and seems a waste of Keeley Hawes. 

 

I'm no fan of Moffatt but tbf, Miss Foster from Partners in Crime should be added to that list; business wear - check, glasses - check, hair in updo - check, snippy condescending tone - check, smug superiority complex - check.

[tankgirl73]

Agh.  Just thought of another big plot hole in regards to Saibra's ability.  Her changing form is involuntary when she contacts another creature's DNA (though it seems she controls when she changes back).  It doesn't have to be humanoid, as we saw from her reaction to the worm.  

 

So. 

 

1) She should be changing into tons of other people and creatures whenever she touches a doorknob or eats a hamburger.

 

2) She should constantly be changing into bacteria.  The things are everywhere.

 

And another question.  Saibra and Psi teleported out of the bank with their doohickeys, then showed up disguised as guards to rescue the Doctor and Clara.

 

1) This most highly guarded bank in the universe doesn't have teleportation shields?

 

2) If it doesn't, then why didn't they just teleport everyone in in the first place instead of using the dimensional bomb and assorted other trickeries?

 

3) How did Sabra and Psi get to be those fake guards?  If it was a relatively easy task, why didn't they just do that in the first place?  And how poor is the security that fake guards can get in at all?  And how did they get to be exactly the *right* guards to be going with Delphox to the Doctor and not assigned to some random cell or something?

 

And I *still* want to know how the Doctor broke in to plant the suitcases etc as "the Architect", without having all the Architects tricks there to help him...

Edited September 22, 2014 by tankgirl73

[supposebly]

 

He's not too fond of himself much of the time, but that's different than actual hatred.

 

This made me think of Amy's Choice. That dream guy was the parts of the doctor he loathes. I wonder if he comes back.

[tv-talk]

And I *still* want to know how the Doctor broke in to plant the suitcases etc as "the Architect", without having all the Architects tricks there to help him...

 

 

Often there's no difference between past and future for the Doctor. The fact he does something can be both cause and effect, by robbing the Bank he creates the knowledge in past needed to rob it. He's the Doctor.

Edited September 22, 2014 by tv-talk

[ZoqFotPik]

 

And I *still* want to know how the Doctor broke in to plant the suitcases etc as "the Architect", without having all the Architects tricks there to help him...

Presumably the older Madame Karabraxos could have provided him the all the necessary intelligence to get in and plant to suitcases. The point wasn't to just break into the private vault, it was to break in and not know why they were breaking in.

Edited September 22, 2014 by ZoqFotPik

[ketose]

I do wonder why all Moffat NuWho female villains have the same look to them - Madam Kovarian, Missy, Karabraxos. Not exactly much difference and seems a waste of Keeley Hawes. 

That was Keeley Hawes? That was a waste.

[Llywela]

When we first met Clara, the Victorian Clara, I was so excited to have a companion from another time. I thought that would be really interesting. Alas, it didn't play out that way. I doubt the show will ever go there with Moffat in charge since he thinks the companion is the main character and we are all children to simplistic to relate to an alien or someone old/old fashioned.

 

...and/or the writing team isn't up to it in terms of historical period knowledge? Regardless, I agree. There would be lots of hilarity watching even just a pre-Internet person reacting to people staring at cell phones while walking on the sidewalk. Some years ago, my elderly neighbor, who is a licensed mental health therapist, thought I was having a schizo moment when I walked past her while talking to my daughter via a phone in my pocket with an earpiece in my ear.

It would be even better to have a pre-electricity companion like Clara could have been.

But it would complicate plots.

The writing team have flat out admitted that the reason they didn't keep Victorian Clara on as a companion was because they weren't interested in writing the kind of character story it would have required - they wanted a character already familiar with technology who would just roll with it, to the point of giving Clara a 'computer genius' upgrade in her very first story (which has never been made use of again, iirc).

 

It's funny, 'cause back in the '60s, an era not exactly famous for character focus or development, they managed to write historical companions and found time to let them react to the strange things that surrounded them during their life with the Doctor - it led to some brilliant scenes, like Jamie calling a plane a 'flying beastie', and Jamie and Victoria clinging to each other in bewilderment on their first helicopter journey and not understanding that the thing is, or the scene where Jamie and the Doctor are stuck in a little capsule that travels on a pre-set route and Jamie is trying to ask if it doesn't have ordinary steering controls (because he's seen cars so has the general idea of how they are steered) but doesn't have the vocabulary to say what he wants to say so just mimes a steering wheel instead. That kind of character story, told in the modern style, should be fantastic - and I'm always hearing how modern television is so much better at focusing on characters than the shows of the past. Yet apparently it was too much effort for this writing team to contemplate, not when they had so much plot they wanted to tell. A wasted opportunity to do something different and delve into the possibility that this show offers.

 

Agh.  Just thought of another big plot hole in regards to Saibra's ability.  Her changing form is involuntary when she contacts another creature's DNA (though it seems she controls when she changes back).  It doesn't have to be humanoid, as we saw from her reaction to the worm.  

 

So. 

 

1) She should be changing into tons of other people and creatures whenever she touches a doorknob or eats a hamburger.

 

2) She should constantly be changing into bacteria.  The things are everywhere.

Saibra wore gloves, always - until she had the cure. That was to stop her encountering DNA on objects she touched casually along the way, such as doorknobs. As for bacteria in the air - it's a family TV show primarily aimed at children, best not to over-think the minute detail! ;)

Edited September 22, 2014 by Llywela

[ZoqFotPik]

 

 

1) She should be changing into tons of other people and creatures whenever she touches a doorknob or eats a hamburger.

2) She should constantly be changing into bacteria.  The things are everywhere.

Saibra wore gloves, always - until she had the cure. That was to stop her encountering DNA on objects she touched casually along the way, such as doorknobs. As for bacteria in the air - it's a family TV show primarily aimed at children, best not to over-think the minute detail! ;)

She also said she was wearing a device that allowed her mimic clothes. It's possible that device also shielded her from airborne bacteria.

[TheGourmez]

I do wonder why all Moffat NuWho female villains have the same look to them - Madam Kovarian, Missy, Karabraxos. Not exactly much difference and seems a waste of Keeley Hawes. 

 

That was my biggest takeaway from the episode. It has to be intentional, no? And granted, I might have taken away more had I not been watching it in a bar with a drunk man yelling every thirty seconds on the mark.

 

Wasn't there a time when the TARDIS was not so reliable as to returning to the same time and location as it left?  The Doctor's "7:12 on the dot" and the whole set up for next week makes me wonder who did what to fix the knackered navigation system?  It was still an issue in Eleven's time (5 minutes or 12 years?)

 

Didn't he take Clara to Scotland on accident at just the first episode of this season?

[darkestboy]

This episode is unlikely to go down as a classic or make any favourite polls but for Thompson, it was definitely his best effort going.

While the timey wimey has well and truly been exhausted, I think it was well used here along with the memory worms for what originally appeared as a bank heist, only to turn out to be a rescue mission.

The Teller looked like he had been borrowed from Farscape, but I liked him as a monster.

A great episode for the Doctor and Clara as well. I also enjoyed both Psi and Saibra as well. Here's hoping we get to see them in another episode next series.

Delphox was a good guest character but someone of Hawes talents should've been in a bigger episode I think.

Nice brief scene of Danny at the start though it clearly looked added on at the last minute, 7/10
 

[BizBuzz]

OMG, TELLER???  Honestly, with the accent I kept hearing TENOR.  No, it didn't make sense, but I went with it.  Yeah, I am not all that bright sometimes, which is why you can tell me the same joke over and over and I laugh every time.

 

TELLER does make sense, HA!

[Pattycake2]

Okay the Doctor and his team break into Gringott's in order to reconnect and save two aliens a la Hide.  You can't trust your own eyes looking back at you.  I thought this was a justification why the Doctor needs a companion and why he can't travel alone for too long without getting into trouble.  I wondered if the hating himself thingy was referencing the Doctor's own difficulty in adjusting to his current reincarnation.  I did enjoy his attempts to assimilate by telling a joke on the tardis and using the call me gesture.  However, I had a worse than ever problem understanding the dialogue and had to back it up several times.  For some reason, I can't close caption the show.  Sigh.

[tarotx]

There are some probably answers to your questions. 

 

1-2 Sabra wore Gloves and wore a Hologram device that allowed her to mimic clothes but we can fan wonk that it also protected her from bacteria and such since she has to be able to mimic head to toe depending on what she would have to pretend to be wearing. Also we saw Sabra's face wobble from touching the worm but we didn't actual see her change. So another fan wonk could be that non humanoids affect her but don't change her. Though really sometimes sci fi and future stories have to be taken on Ok the answer to that hasn't been invented yet but maybe someday ;) 

 

3. It's really the secure vault that makes the banking planet the most secure ever. Everything else is prevention and advertisement. They have the teller and incineration chamber to ward off people even attempting a crime. Then they have the soup people they had the teller create on display. They probably had them created publicly so word would get out. Teleportation is surely the means to how they allowed most of the customers on and off the planet. It's the most secure means. They know when and ware the people are in the bank even if they can't exactly reach them in time. Our Group needed to have as little knowledge as possible. As to why our gang didn't teleport to the vault, well that would make for a very quick episode :p But timey wimey tells the doctor the course of events that happened. And he made them happen. They needed the teller out, they needed the gang to fear brain soup at the least (and perhaps the Doctor wanted something from the Teller once he heard about what happened) so the gang would choose to teleport out and probably read instructions from the Architect up there so they could rescue the Doctor and Clara. And I think the Doctor wanted The teller to trust him. Having such an ally could be truly useful. 

 

4). The Tardis ;) She could materialize in the bank except for this time that the bank  vault was vulnerable because of the solar storm. 

Agh.  Just thought of another big plot hole in regards to Saibra's ability.  Her changing form is involuntary when she contacts another creature's DNA (though it seems she controls when she changes back).  It doesn't have to be humanoid, as we saw from her reaction to the worm.  

 

So. 

 

1) She should be changing into tons of other people and creatures whenever she touches a doorknob or eats a hamburger.

 

2) She should constantly be changing into bacteria.  The things are everywhere.

 

And another question.  Saibra and Psi teleported out of the bank with their doohickeys, then showed up disguised as guards to rescue the Doctor and Clara.

 

1) This most highly guarded bank in the universe doesn't have teleportation shields?

 

2) If it doesn't, then why didn't they just teleport everyone in in the first place instead of using the dimensional bomb and assorted other trickeries?

 

3) How did Sabra and Psi get to be those fake guards?  If it was a relatively easy task, why didn't they just do that in the first place?  And how poor is the security that fake guards can get in at all?  And how did they get to be exactly the *right* guards to be going with Delphox to the Doctor and not assigned to some random cell or something?

 

And I *still* want to know how the Doctor broke in to plant the suitcases etc as "the Architect", without having all the Architects tricks there to help him...

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Wasn't there a time when the TARDIS was not so reliable as to returning to the same time and location as it left?  The Doctor's "7:12 on the dot" and the whole set up for next week makes me wonder who did what to fix the knackered navigation system?

I'd guess it was the conversation the Doctor had with Idris!Tardis in The Doctor's Wife, where he complained about her not taking him where he wanted to go and she responded that she takes him where he needs to go. The old girl is trying to be more considerate now that she knows it's an issue.

 

Why did the TARDIS phone still sound muffled after the Doctor opened the panel to answer it?

[romantic idiot]

I think the Tardis couldn't materialise inside the vault because of the atomic clock thing, maybe? So he could get in on the the Tardis to plant stuff, but not the actual vault that they needed to get into. (Yes that doesn't make sense, the Tardis can go anywhere). So he set everything up for the solar storm. 

 

Plus he did it that way because Kabraxos told him that he did it that way. 

[elle]

That was my biggest takeaway from the episode. It has to be intentional, no? And granted, I might have taken away more had I not been watching it in a bar with a drunk man yelling every thirty seconds on the mark.

 

 

Didn't he take Clara to Scotland on accident at just the first episode of this season?

That way of watching Doctor Who might have made the first few episodes more enjoyable.

 

Yes!  The Doctor did wind up in Scotland when returning Clara home (though I took that as a kind of shout out to Scotland).  And then, how late was he in bringing her the coffee when he did finally show up in the cupboard?

 

I seem to recall that the Tardis' not being completely accurate to returning to a specific place and time was what cause Tegan to be stuck with Four.

 

I'd guess it was the conversation the Doctor had with Idris!Tardis in The Doctor's Wife, where he complained about her not taking him where he wanted to go and she responded that she takes him where he needs to go. The old girl is trying to be more considerate now that she knows it's an issue.

 

Why did the TARDIS phone still sound muffled after the Doctor opened the panel to answer it?

Of course, I had hand-waved it as a writer's conceit..  Nice interpretation, I would not have thought of that.  She may still send him to wear he needs to be rather than where he wants to be because that is what needs to happen, but maybe from time to time both coincide to be what needs to happen.

 

Maybe because the phone itself is still within the box and is being muffled by the sides of the box or sound effects issue.  Your choice.

 

My question is since when can the phone be answered from the inside of the Tardis?  Wasn't the phone located on the console before or is this all part of the "upgrade"?

[ketose]

I just realized Teller was not just a bank teller, but the teller of people's guilty secrets. That may also be why there's a telepathic link between him and the bank manager. I don't think the Teller can talk.

[benteen]

The writing team have flat out admitted that the reason they didn't keep Victorian Clara on as a companion was because they weren't interested in writing the kind of character story it would have required - they wanted a character already familiar with technology who would just roll with it, to the point of giving Clara a 'computer genius' upgrade in her very first story (which has never been made use of again, iirc).

 

It's funny, 'cause back in the '60s, an era not exactly famous for character focus or development, they managed to write historical companions and found time to let them react to the strange things that surrounded them during their life with the Doctor - it led to some brilliant scenes, like Jamie calling a plane a 'flying beastie', and Jamie and Victoria clinging to each other in bewilderment on their first helicopter journey and not understanding that the thing is, or the scene where Jamie and the Doctor are stuck in a little capsule that travels on a pre-set route and Jamie is trying to ask if it doesn't have ordinary steering controls (because he's seen cars so has the general idea of how they are steered) but doesn't have the vocabulary to say what he wants to say so just mimes a steering wheel instead. That kind of character story, told in the modern style, should be fantastic - and I'm always hearing how modern television is so much better at focusing on characters than the shows of the past. Yet apparently it was too much effort for this writing team to contemplate, not when they had so much plot they wanted to tell. A wasted opportunity to do something different and delve into the possibility that this show offers.

 

Saibra wore gloves, always - until she had the cure. That was to stop her encountering DNA on objects she touched casually along the way, such as doorknobs. As for bacteria in the air - it's a family TV show primarily aimed at children, best not to over-think the minute detail! ;)

 

It's a shame they won't consider companions from olden days.  One of my favorite shows is Sleepy Hollow, which has Ichabod Crane taken out of the Revolutionary War and into present day.  That's about 230 years ago, even longer than Victorian Clara.  Some of the very best scenes in Sleepy Hollow have Crane going through 21st century life and commenting about it.  If done correctly, an olden days companion can be a lot of fun.

Edited September 25, 2014 by benteen

[ketose]

I remember NBC's "Life" got mileage out of a man who was in jail since the 1990's learning about how things changed. I remember when he didn't know about faucets in bathrooms that come on when you put your hands under them.

[OmegaX123]

One thing bugged me about Sabra or whatever her name was. She touches someone and 'becomes' them, down to breath-borne whatevers and genetic material, fingerprints and retinas. She can hold the transformation 'as long as she wants'. Which means she has control over it. Why couldn't she just force herself to not change, or even just release the transformation immediately, in context of 'intimate' situations?

[wayne67]

I had a random thought about this episode. This had three reiterations about copies in a single episode... First being Sabra not having control over who she copies which if true begs the question of why she has a holographic shell to better mimic people if it's such an issue. Second being The Director with her poor imitation clones being untrustworthy which may have had more to do with her dislike of them rather than their actual level of competence. Third The Doctor and the Architect being the same person because that implies there were 2 of the same Doctor wandering through that timeline interacting with each other through voice recordings and packages . 

 

This episode and the season arc seem to be hammering the point about copies being inferior to the original and it feels like it's reinforcing that this Doctor isn't as good as the last batch because he's been replaced and regenerated too many times. It makes me wonder what the possible payoff to this apparent season theme since I feel an increasing sense of alienation from the motivations and characterizations of this Doctor. Is there some other point being built up to with all the broom metaphors and the Doctor's doubt over 'legends' that I'm missing?  

 

Did Clara get a consolation gift for participation in this Time Heist other than more fodder for her nightmares ?

[TheGourmez]

This episode and the season arc seem to be hammering the point about copies being inferior to the original and it feels like it's reinforcing that this Doctor isn't as good as the last batch because he's been replaced and regenerated too many times. It makes me wonder what the possible payoff to this apparent season theme since I feel an increasing sense of alienation from the motivations and characterizations of this Doctor. 

 

Ooh, I like this. I like this a lot.

[Lugal]

The writing team have flat out admitted that the reason they didn't keep Victorian Clara on as a companion was because they weren't interested in writing the kind of character story it would have required - they wanted a character already familiar with technology who would just roll with it, to the point of giving Clara a 'computer genius' upgrade in her very first story (which has never been made use of again, iirc).

Which is too bad because it's not like they're writing Downton Abbey here.  Any character smart enough to travel with the Doctor is smart enough to catch onto the technology pretty quick, like all those moments in Classic Who you mentioned.  And like benteen said, it provides some of the best moments in Sleepy Hollow.

 

 

Wasn't there a time when the TARDIS was not so reliable as to returning to the same time and location as it left?  The Doctor's "7:12 on the dot" and the whole set up for next week makes me wonder who did what to fix the knackered navigation system?

I always figured it was only partially the TARDIS and partially because the Doctor seems to live on what Native American friends refer to as Indian Time.

[Llywela]

I always figured it was only partially the TARDIS and partially because the Doctor seems to live on what Native American friends refer to as Indian Time.

And what my South African brother-in-law likes to call 'African Time'.

 

The Doctor has come a long, long way since 1963 when he couldn't steer the TARDIS at all. The modern show is a little inconsistent in its portrayal of his piloting abilities, but it has that in common with the late '70s and '80s. It seems that pretty much ever since the later Tom Baker days, he is capable of landing with great precision when it really matters, but he doesn't always take that much care and so still has a terrible habit of missing by a mile...or, you know, a century - or even a galaxy...

[LoneHaranguer]

 

It seems that pretty much ever since the later Tom Baker days, he is capable of landing with great precision when it really matters, but he doesn't always take that much care and so still has a terrible habit of missing by a mile...or, you know, a century - or even a galaxy...

I think Nine cared because he wanted to impress Rose, but the TARDIS had other ideas. He did hit the bullseye the first time because that happened to be where the nearest crisis was, so the TARDIS was happy to accommodate him.

[Pattycake2]

This episode and the season arc seem to be hammering the point about copies being inferior to the original and it feels like it's reinforcing that this Doctor isn't as good as the last batch because he's been replaced and regenerated too many times. It makes me wonder what the possible payoff to this apparent season theme since I feel an increasing sense of alienation from the motivations and characterizations of this Doctor.

 

 

I read a Moffet description of the last Doctor saying that he was an old man trapped in a young man's body.  In combination with Eleven expressing dismay that his regeneration was old, it makes me think that it just might not be as fun for him. No girls to attract, no childlike goofiness, no romantic gestures.  Just an old man in an old body. 

[Florinaldo]

I liked that this was an off-world episode, the first this season, even though they made it into a variation of the old base-under-siege formula from the Pertwee era, with the twist that this time it's the Doctor and his associates who are the invaders.

 

Besides the usual nitpicks (like the Doctor still being in a pissing contest with a young male, this time Pink, judging from his closing aside), I thought there was a truly major plot hole: how could a hyper-secure bank choose as a location a planet whose sun is subject to massive eruptions? If they wanted to assume the risk, they could at least have installed the proper insulation or protection. Unless we are supposed to believe that this was the first and only time in recorded history that this particular sun burped.

 

I also was not impressed with the costume design; most of the men wore business suits and ties identical to the standard stuff available today, while women seemed for the most part to wear various forms of extreme high heels or platform shoes, again taken straight from today's fashion. Hasn't the concept of sensible footwear reached advanced extraterrestrial civilisations?

 

In the end however, I went along for the ride and enjoyed it as a well-paced but minor action episode. Like others, I would not mind if Saibra and Psi returned at some point or even travelled with the Doctor; the latter would certainly bring some welcome male eye-candy into the TARDIS.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Florinaldo

[Guest]

I am glad the woman in the shop was mentioned again as I had not let that one go. 

Edited October 12, 2014 by lovedwallflower