Chit-Chat: The Feels

[Kemper]

7 hours ago, Affogato said:

The giant pickups are often used in blue collar work. Not necessarily arguing completely. But the pickups aren’t a point. 

I have noticed that many people will spend money on a large pickup, even if it is a financial stretch. Yes, a lot of them need it for work. But some like the idea of driving a large truck. Mr. Kemper and I had a Pinto for years. 😜

[fairffaxx]

I was 5 when Adlai Stevenson ran against Ike the first time & I remember him being criticized as an "egghead".  He was balding (so was Ike) but it was his eloquence that earned him the title of "intellectual", which was the kiss of death against the war hero.  He was also a divorced man, but even that wasn't as bad politically as being an "egghead".  I'm pretty sure the country would be so much better off now if he'd become President, but heaven forfend that the USA should elect an "egghead"!

[Kemper]

14 minutes ago, Kemper said:

I have noticed that many people will spend money on a large pickup, even if it is a financial stretch. Yes, a lot of them need it for work. But some like the idea of driving a large truck. Mr. Kemper and I had a Pinto for years. 😜

Forgot to add. As a school librarian (in a large high school) ... it was interesting to see how the "nerds" seemed to find each other. In a good way. There were 7 or 8 who would come to the library over their lunch period. The year started with one or two...and it grew to the larger number. They were quiet ,had their books, but had a wonderful time. With each other; sneaking their packed lunch (we knew but ignored it). Having this respite seemed to give them more confidence; and it made high school easier to navigate. 

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, fairffaxx said:

I was 5 when Adlai Stevenson ran against Ike the first time & I remember him being criticized as an "egghead".  He was balding (so was Ike) but it was his eloquence that earned him the title of "intellectual", which was the kiss of death against the war hero.  He was also a divorced man, but even that wasn't as bad politically as being an "egghead".  I'm pretty sure the country would be so much better off now if he'd become President, but heaven forfend that the USA should elect an "egghead"!

The West Wing was a romantic, idealized version of American politics, and part of that was the president being a total egghead (a "lily-livered, bleeding heart, liberal, egghead communist" is how he described himself as a Republican senator would).  There's a great scene where one of the re-election campaign strategists is arguing with the senior staff against the president using the word "torpor" in a speech, because it's not a word a lot of people know, and the president walks in as the strategist is saying, "... if people don't know what a word means means--" and interrupts him to say, "They can look it up."  He goes on:  "It's not our job to appeal to the lowest common denominator, Doug.  It's our job to raise it.  If you're going to be the 'Education President', it'd be nice not to hide that you have an education."

(In the speech, torpor was being used as a synonym for apathy, for purposes of alliteration.)

Edited Yest. at 02:23 AM by Bastet

[Affogato]

34 minutes ago, Kemper said:

I have noticed that many people will spend money on a large pickup, even if it is a financial stretch. Yes, a lot of them need it for work. But some like the idea of driving a large truck. Mr. Kemper and I had a Pinto for years. 😜

I will now point out the popularity, in the US, of SUVs. Often huge, big trucks. I wa hit by a pickup on e. I am sometimes triggered by SUVs. Very strong family resemblance. 

[Anela]

Bringing something here:

Why should women be expected to be better than "dudebros" when they aren't seen as being good enough to be President? Why should they be expected to be better than men, in any way, when it comes to behaviour? 

And what is "better" when apparently, so many people want to vote for someone they could relax and have a beer with?

[Affogato]

4 minutes ago, Anela said:

Bringing something here:

Why should women be expected to be better than "dudebros" when they aren't seen as being good enough to be President? Why should they be expected to be better than men, in any way, when it comes to behaviour? 

And what is "better" when apparently, so many people want to vote for someone they could relax and have a beer with?

Remembering the arguments brought when women were trying to get the vote. Women must not be soiled with the dirt of politics and worldy matters. They must raise children. Motherhood is a sacred duty. Etc. and also they must keep a home for men to return to, it must be a retreat. 

Edited Yest. at 12:36 AM by Affogato

[tearknee]

Just now, Anela said:

So, being an ass like trump, is what they're looking for? 

As one of my previous posts noted, the first rule of politics is telling people what they want to hear.

Calling voters racist if they don't support the indigenous voice referendum, calling them xenophobic Little Englanders if they vote for Brexit?

 

Not that.

[Anela]

4 minutes ago, tearknee said:

As one of my previous posts noted, the first rule of politics is telling people what they want to hear.

Calling voters racist if they don't support the indigenous voice referendum, calling them xenophobic Little Englanders if they vote for Brexit?

 

Not that.

So, they want someone to lie to them. 

You can't say that women should be better than dudebros, when the people apparently want those bros in the White House, and the rest of the government. You can't expect us to be better people than those elected to the highest jobs in this country, and not be pissed that we will never be considered good enough for those jobs.

Maybe if I start chugging beers, and burping loudly in public, I can run for Governor. 

Edited Yest. at 12:39 AM by Anela

[SoMuchTV]

14 minutes ago, tearknee said:

Because most people aren't academics and will never become one?

I’m not a doctor and will never become one. I’m not a plumber and will never become one. I’m not a structural engineer, or a firefighter, or a customer service rep, or an economist, or a farmer, or a kindergarten teacher…

What the heck are we arguing about here? Different people have different talents and skills and abilities. Almost all of them serve some useful purpose  that other people benefit from. What is the point of trying to identify what a “normal” person is? 

[Anela]

I'm not picking at you @tearknee You just said what we've been over, I don't know how many times, since November: women are expected to be better, in every way, but we will still never be good enough. Not now, anyway. As soon as I see anyone stating what's expected of women, I'm the Tasmanian devil, leaving a me-shaped hole in something. With good reason. 

Edited Yest. at 01:28 AM by Anela

[ProudMary]

Not just the Ivies, Big Ten faculties are standing up and banding together against Trump's actions, too. 👏

I excerpted sections of the article that pertain to the universities as a whole. Info on some of the individual universities involved is at the link.

Big Ten faculties ask their administrations to sign a joint defense pact against Trump

https://www.axios.com/2025/04/24/big-ten-joint-pact-trump-administration-universities

Faculties at several Big Ten universities have asked their administrations to consider a joint defense pact in the face of threats to higher education institutions from the Trump administration, multiple outlets reported.

Why it matters: The potential pact would mark an escalation in resistance from universities to President Trump's push for them to follow his agenda, which has so far largely targeted private, elite schools.

...

State of play: Described as a "NATO-like agreement," the pact would allow the Big Ten institutions to share attorneys and financial resources if the Trump administration targets one of its members, per the Washington Post.

[annzeepark914]

I was watching Chris Hayes tonight and missed what he was saying about DJT furious at Fox for showing his plummeting ratings in the most recent poll. Did anyone else see this part of the show?  Oh, to be a fly on a WH wall (enjoying some ketchup!) and watching the overgrown toddler pitching a hissy fit.

[Yeah No]

13 hours ago, tearknee said:

Remember, ordinary people on the street hate nerds and intellectuals. The last thing such a person are is an ordinary person on Struggle Street. And thus, bullying and insulting nerds/straight-A students is punching up not down. An intellectual elite is still an elite.

That's why voters are easy prey for populist demagogues like Trump or Orban.

I think you're making some assumptions here that don't apply the way you think they do. I grew up in the Bronx along with a lot of other people who did not have much money, whose parents did not go to college and who may have worked in blue collar jobs. Just because we did well in school didn't some how make us "elites" in any way, shape or form. In fact we were the ones bullied and hated by the "cool" people and they were not punching "up" in any way, shape or form. In fact they thought they were better than us! Those are assumptions that don't apply in the real world. I know you think you see things that others don't see - well so do I and I don't see that. 

12 hours ago, tearknee said:

a straight-A student at high school is not an ordinary person and most people do not go to college or university, either. Your class background ("My Mom was a boiler maker!") or that you grew up in Podunk, IA does not change that.

Yes it does change that. My parents grew up dirt poor in the Great Depression. Neither one went to college (my mother did as an adult but many years later). Neither one was ever "elite" in any way, shape or form. In fact they would be offended if anyone ever said that of them. They struggled financially all of their lives. Their intelligence and good grades didn't earn them any kind of elite status in this world in anyone's eyes.

Being "elite" is a state of mind. It has nothing to do with education, social background or even income. Anyone can put on airs and be a snob and actually fool people into thinking they're "better" than them somehow. They have more "class" are "above" them or whatever. Elitists are poseurs, not genuine. Genuine intellectuals do not put on airs.

3 hours ago, Lugal said:

Academia is somewhat insular.  There are a few who are able to communicate to the public better than others, like Neil DeGrasse Tyson for example.

Speaking of Neil DeGrasse Tyson, he's an example of the type of person I went to school with, because he actually was a classmate of mine in my year at Bronx Science. He communicates to the public better because a) he's an extrovert and b) he's at heart a Bronx kid and "regular" guy, not an "elite" in an ivory tower. And sure, he could have been, but the point is that his intellect and grades did not automatically put him in that category.

[Annber03]

12 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

I was watching Chris Hayes tonight and missed what he was saying about DJT furious at Fox for showing his plummeting ratings in the most recent poll. Did anyone else see this part of the show?  Oh, to be a fly on a WH wall (enjoying some ketchup!) and watching the overgrown toddler pitching a hissy fit.

Gosh, it's almost like fucking with the global economy for no logical reason whatsoever, putting grossly inexperienced/unqualified people in charge of important departments, gutting every aspect of our government, and taking measures that would do Hitler proud when it comes to going after various groups of people makes you deeply unpopular among your constituents. Who knew? 

Edited Yest. at 03:24 AM by Annber03

[tearknee]

The monied elite is not the only elite.

[CheshireCat]

14 hours ago, tearknee said:

 An intellectual elite is still an elite.

In what aspect?

"Elite" is defined as "a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society." 

I think (and hope) we can all agree that non-intellectuals aren’t lesser human-beings. In other words, I think (and hope) we all agree that intellectuals aren’t superior in “quality”.

So, what makes the "intellectual elite" superior in ability to "non-intellectuals"? An "intellectual" may be able to become a computer scientist but that doesn't mean that they have the skills to do the plumbing of their home.
That means their computer skills are superior to that of a plumber but the plumber's plumping skills are superior to that of the computer scientist's. However, since level of education doesn't equal level of intelligence (while it sometimes may be an indicator, circumstances of life are often more of a deciding factor in (lack of) college education than intellect) we can't tell whether the computer scientist's intellect is truly superior to that of the plumber's or if the computer scientist was simply lucky enough to get the support they needed to get the education they wanted while the plumber's circumstances simply prevented them from getting the education they would have needed for a different job. (Or, if maybe, becoming a plumber was what the plumber wanted to do).

I don’t think we have any way of knowing if what society generally considers an "intellectual" is truly superior in ability to non-intellectuals and I think to make a blanket statement like that is generalizing, stereotyping and prejudial. 

 

13 hours ago, tearknee said:

a straight-A student at high school is not an ordinary person and most people do not go to college or university, either.

What's your definition of an "ordinary" person? As in, what is it that you think makes someone "ordinary" and why do you think that makes them "ordinary"?

 

11 hours ago, tearknee said:

You cannot punch down at the powerful - which nerds at a school and academics are (relative to the average person in the street).

I think that's only one side of the coin. They're powerful when it comes to "knowledge is power". However, I don't think they're powerful when it comes to their place in society. As others have pointed out, "nerds" are usually easy targets. Anyone who doesn't fit with society's idea of "normal" usually is. (Granted, they tend become targets because they can make those who target them feel insecure and insecurity can lead to a feeling of powerlessness, so, they lash out to regain power/control but I don't think society considers "nerds" as being in a place of power).

I guess, who has power depends a lot of definition, theory, actuality, appearances and perception. Meaning, what is true in theory doesn't have to be true in actuality and I can have power but still feel powerless and what an individual perceives to be true doesn't have to be true. 

 

10 hours ago, Dimity said:

Arguably, if I can speak for the public at large, we hate show offs and knowitalls who think they're better than we are. 

From what I understand, I think that's the point tearknee is trying to make. Part of the point anyway. At least, it looks like that to me. That the well-educated are seen as believing they're better than the lesser educated because of their education and that's why the lesser educated dislike the better educated.

I don't know what tearknee is basing this believe on but I think they're not entirely wrong. I can only speak from my observations from Germany but it seems that there's a lot of contradiction in society when it comes to intellect and education: on the one hand, a good education and well-paying job is something to be strived for and, at the same time, smart students can be seen as know-it-alls and show-offs and can be unpopular.
It seems that society often signals that being smart is something to be admired until someone reveals that they're smart. Then society has a tendency to label them as a show-off, arrogant or elite. 

 

10 hours ago, Dimity said:

Sadly, right now that probably described most Republicans who agree with the Trumpian viewpoint whether they are academics or not.

Based on what I've seen, I think a lot of Republicans are saying the same thing about liberals. 

 

9 hours ago, Affogato said:

I often do not understand your points.

I think it was here that this quote was shared by David Frum. 

Quote

You can warn your friend that he's being conned and he will get angry at you. And when the whole thing comes crashing down and he loses his money and he can no longer deny that you were right he will never forgive you. He will forgive the crook, but he will not forgive the people who warned him about the crook. The crook just took his money, but you made him feel dumb. - David Frum

If I understand correctly then I think this is what tearknee's trying to say. (I could be completely off the mark, though, it's just how I understand their posts).
I understand tearknee to be arguing that while what they call the "intellectual elite" might be right, they make "non-intellectuals" feel dumb. 
I'd say that goes back to my point above. Someone may have good intention in theory but that doesn't mean that that's how it's received.

 

This argument/quote reminds me of an NPR interview I came across last year. It was actually about microaggression, so, unrelated. But there was one part of the answer that I think isn't just applicable to microaggression. 

Quote

We're all human beings who are prone to mistakes, and we're all human beings who might commit microaggressions. And it's not necessarily that you're a bad person if you commit a microaggression, but rather that you need to be more aware of your biases and impact on people. We all need to commit to working on these things in order to create a more harmonious society.

It rings true for basically all life situations: We're all human beings, we all make mistakes. Unfortuntely, however, society has defined us by our mistakes for the longest time - public shaming was a thing, and I'd argue, that it still is in certain cultures/places (also, certain religion, although, it's less public) - and it seems that generational trauma has helped carry that fear of being shamed and being defined by our mistakes into the 21st century. 

If you ask me, it's not our mistakes that define us, it's how we choose to handle it; do we reflect, learn and grow or do we get defensive, reject and deny? 

I believe to affect change we first need to find a way to see the potential in everyone, accept each other as we are and to assure everyone that we think they have a place in society no matter what their mistakes were. I think only once we, as a society, stop being afraid of being defined by our mistakes can we grow, break-up the us vs them mentality and move forward as a (largely) unified society. 

 

[CheshireCat]

10 hours ago, tearknee said:

Jealously and resentment, yes. But that isn't helped -- particularly in childhood and youth-centric environments -- by the 'gifted' asking to be treated as ordinary -- IOW, the same as a bloke or broad who thinks that a particle accelerator is a type of hoover.

Apologies for the double post but I just remembered that I wanted to reply to this. 

Going by what I understand "ordinary" to mean (normal, average) I don't think it's the gifted who are asking to be treated as ordinary. My experience has been that the gifted are asking to be included in and accepted by society as they are and that the reason they're not is because they're nor what society as a whole has defined as ordinary. 

They're just looking for their place in society and how to fit into a society that has defined a normal that they don't fall under. 

I think this goes to the core of DEI policies: accept anyone as they are, so that they can find their place in society. But like with so many other things, the introduction and communication of DEI was flawed, there are those who don't adopt it to circumstances and the current administration seems determined to erase any progress that has been made. They seem to have their idea of "normal" and it looks like they think that everyone who doesn't fit doesn't belong. 

[tearknee]

33 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

In what aspect?

"Elite" is defined as "a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society." 

I think (and hope) we can all agree that non-intellectuals aren’t lesser human-beings. In other words, I think (and hope) we all agree that intellectuals aren’t superior in “quality”.

So, what makes the "intellectual elite" superior in ability to "non-intellectuals"? An "intellectual" may be able to become a computer scientist but that doesn't mean that they have the skills to do the plumbing of their home.
That means their computer skills are superior to that of a plumber but the plumber's plumping skills are superior to that of the computer scientist's. However, since level of education doesn't equal level of intelligence (while it sometimes may be an indicator, circumstances of life are often more of a deciding factor in (lack of) college education than intellect) we can't tell whether the computer scientist's intellect is truly superior to that of the plumber's or if the computer scientist was simply lucky enough to get the support they needed to get the education they wanted while the plumber's circumstances simply prevented them from getting the education they would have needed for a different job. (Or, if maybe, becoming a plumber was what the plumber wanted to do).

I don’t think we have any way of knowing if what society generally considers an "intellectual" is truly superior in ability to non-intellectuals and I think to make a blanket statement like that is generalizing, stereotyping and prejudial. 

 

What's your definition of an "ordinary" person? As in, what is it that you think makes someone "ordinary" and why do you think that makes them "ordinary"?

 

I think that's only one side of the coin. They're powerful when it comes to "knowledge is power". However, I don't think they're powerful when it comes to their place in society. As others have pointed out, "nerds" are usually easy targets. Anyone who doesn't fit with society's idea of "normal" usually is. (Granted, they tend become targets because they can make those who target them feel insecure and insecurity can lead to a feeling of powerlessness, so, they lash out to regain power/control but I don't think society considers "nerds" as being in a place of power).

I guess, who has power depends a lot of definition, theory, actuality, appearances and perception. Meaning, what is true in theory doesn't have to be true in actuality and I can have power but still feel powerless and what an individual perceives to be true doesn't have to be true. 

 

From what I understand, I think that's the point tearknee is trying to make. Part of the point anyway. At least, it looks like that to me. That the well-educated are seen as believing they're better than the lesser educated because of their education and that's why the lesser educated dislike the better educated.

I don't know what tearknee is basing this believe on but I think they're not entirely wrong. I can only speak from my observations from Germany but it seems that there's a lot of contradiction in society when it comes to intellect and education: on the one hand, a good education and well-paying job is something to be strived for and, at the same time, smart students can be seen as know-it-alls and show-offs and can be unpopular.
It seems that society often signals that being smart is something to be admired until someone reveals that they're smart. Then society has a tendency to label them as a show-off, arrogant or elite. 

 

Based on what I've seen, I think a lot of Republicans are saying the same thing about liberals. 

 

I think it was here that this quote was shared by David Frum. 

If I understand correctly then I think this is what tearknee's trying to say. (I could be completely off the mark, though, it's just how I understand their posts).
I understand tearknee to be arguing that while what they call the "intellectual elite" might be right, they make "non-intellectuals" feel dumb. 
I'd say that goes back to my point above. Someone may have good intention in theory but that doesn't mean that that's how it's received.

 

This argument/quote reminds me of an NPR interview I came across last year. It was actually about microaggression, so, unrelated. But there was one part of the answer that I think isn't just applicable to microaggression. 

It rings true for basically all life situations: We're all human beings, we all make mistakes. Unfortuntely, however, society has defined us by our mistakes for the longest time - public shaming was a thing, and I'd argue, that it still is in certain cultures/places (also, certain religion, although, it's less public) - and it seems that generational trauma has helped carry that fear of being shamed and being defined by our mistakes into the 21st century. 

If you ask me, it's not our mistakes that define us, it's how we choose to handle it; do we reflect, learn and grow or do we get defensive, reject and deny? 

I believe to affect change we first need to find a way to see the potential in everyone, accept each other as we are and to assure everyone that we think they have a place in society no matter what their mistakes were. I think only once we, as a society, stop being afraid of being defined by our mistakes can we grow, break-up the us vs them mentality and move forward as a (largely) unified society. 

 

You are correct what i was trying to say.

look at Brexit, look at the voice referendum in Australia -- in the privacy of the booth people can vote as they think -- whatever they tell people where they can be seen.

2 minutes ago, tearknee said:

You are correct what i was trying to say.

look at Brexit, look at the voice referendum in Australia -- in the privacy of the booth people can vote as they think -- whatever they tell people where they can be seen.

As someone who [now] lives in the country, doesn't have a white-collar job and etc., I can easily see why all went pear shaped for the Yes campaign.

[Mollywolly555]

I love this site. 

The varied responses to most topics really make me think, and think hard, in  many ways: 1.  To read carefully to understand what others are trying to say;

2. To thoughtfully reflect on my point of view in regards to the topics and so many others' varying perspectives which absolutely broadens my knowledge immensely; 

3. To analyze the differing opinions and individualized definitions/uses of terms to sort out where the disconnect happens as people work to clarify their points (or not);

4. To be more careful with writing my own statements and use of words/terms (and spelling and autocorrect corrections that I need to revise)  in responding; and 

5. To alter, or not, my perspective.

[PRgal]

So @tearknee where would you put a person like my dad, who grew up in post WWII Hong Kong in a shared space that his parents would sublet to people?  He was one of four kids in the family and also lived with a grandparent (I think it was my grandpa’s mom).  He still went to school, graduated with a science degree and came to Canada for graduate school.  Somehow, he ended up in finance.  First in insurance but retired in private equity.  He was able to give me a very comfortable lifestyle growing up and didn’t push me as hard in certain academic areas as other immigrant Asian parents because of my epilepsy.  He just wanted me to be happy (TBH, if he REALLY wanted me to be happy, he would have not pressured me to quit an internship AT A BANK where I was helping with planning conferences/events.  I thought it was the best of both worlds to him).  I still felt the pressure though.  I mean, I was still expected to go to university.  He just wanted me to have a degree (which I got, plus a master’s).  He recently told me I shouldn’t feel ashamed because I’m not some sort of VP and that my writing is good (even if he doesn’t agree with my Substack posts (he thinks it’s a waste of time).  But anyway, to go from humble beginnings to what he is today, what would that make him?  

[Yeah No]

7 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

In what aspect?

"Elite" is defined as "a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society." 

I think (and hope) we can all agree that non-intellectuals aren’t lesser human-beings. In other words, I think (and hope) we all agree that intellectuals aren’t superior in “quality”.

So, what makes the "intellectual elite" superior in ability to "non-intellectuals"? An "intellectual" may be able to become a computer scientist but that doesn't mean that they have the skills to do the plumbing of their home.
That means their computer skills are superior to that of a plumber but the plumber's plumping skills are superior to that of the computer scientist's. However, since level of education doesn't equal level of intelligence (while it sometimes may be an indicator, circumstances of life are often more of a deciding factor in (lack of) college education than intellect) we can't tell whether the computer scientist's intellect is truly superior to that of the plumber's or if the computer scientist was simply lucky enough to get the support they needed to get the education they wanted while the plumber's circumstances simply prevented them from getting the education they would have needed for a different job. (Or, if maybe, becoming a plumber was what the plumber wanted to do).

This is a very good point, but I don't know any so-called "elitist intellectuals" that devalue the knowledge of a builder or a plumber. They marvel at it because it's not their wheelhouse. And that's not what people look down on. People look down on ignorance, which incidentally as I've said has absolutely NOTHING to do with type and level of education and grades. Friends who met my father thought he was a freaking college professor, meanwhile he dropped out of HS to serve in WWII and was entirely self taught in many subjects.

If the so-called "elites" look down on ignorance it's not because they're looking down on someone's lack of a higher education but the lack of common sense, which seems to be lacking these days. My mother's entire family was in construction when they first came to this country (some still are) and none had much of an education, yet they were not what elites would call "ignorant" by any measure.

Most uneducated people used to see a college education as a way to better themselves and their lives in many ways. They didn't project this into an inferiority complex when comparing themselves to educated people. They wanted to be more like them, not rebel against them and blame them for looking down on them. 

I think we've written here about the culture of ignorance in the US these days. That's something that uneducated people have adopted. No longer is a higher education seen as a ticket to success and they look down on it now as if to justify their decision not to seek one. When a college education is available to more people than ever they need to justify their decision not to get one and find a reason to feel as good about themselves for making that choice. Yet no "elite" intellectuals I know of would look down on them for that if they didn't also have their heads up their asses and prey for the likes of Trump who uses them and their lack of self worth to his advantage. My family didn't so it's not a requirement.

I never looked down on people without college educations and no one I grew up with had that attitude. But if people brag and act like being ignorant is a badge of honor and then believe and do stupid things, well that's something I can't respect. And THAT's the issue, not a lack of education.

[tearknee]

58 minutes ago, PRgal said:

So @tearknee where would you put a person like my dad, who grew up in post WWII Hong Kong in a shared space that his parents would sublet to people?  He was one of four kids in the family and also lived with a grandparent (I think it was my grandpa’s mom).  He still went to school, graduated with a science degree and came to Canada for graduate school.  Somehow, he ended up in finance.  First in insurance but retired in private equity.  He was able to give me a very comfortable lifestyle growing up and didn’t push me as hard in certain academic areas as other immigrant Asian parents because of my epilepsy.  He just wanted me to be happy (TBH, if he REALLY wanted me to be happy, he would have not pressured me to quit an internship AT A BANK where I was helping with planning conferences/events.  I thought it was the best of both worlds to him).  I still felt the pressure though.  I mean, I was still expected to go to university.  He just wanted me to have a degree (which I got, plus a master’s).  He recently told me I shouldn’t feel ashamed because I’m not some sort of VP and that my writing is good (even if he doesn’t agree with my Substack posts (he thinks it’s a waste of time).  But anyway, to go from humble beginnings to what he is today, what would that make him?  

Luck and chance. What we all get. I just got the ass end of those :'(

 

3 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

 

It's not the underclass here in my adopted country who deride, condescend to and label the college/university-educated middle and upper middle class as "bogans"...

[PRgal]

7 minutes ago, tearknee said:

Luck and chance. What we all get. I just got the ass end of those :'(

 

It's not the underclass here in my adopted country who deride, condescend to and label the college/university-educated middle and upper middle class as "bogans"...

Now I’m confused.  Because I definitely fall into that middle/upper middle class category that you mentioned.

[tearknee]

Just now, PRgal said:

Now I’m confused.  Because I definitely fall into that middle/upper middle class category that you mentioned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogan

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, tearknee said:

The monied elite is not the only elite.

I do actually feel that I understand your points, unless they are pictures of child stars I don’t know with no captions. But they are often odd and a little off topic. 

i do believe Britain still has a strong class system. This can make it easier. Different parts of society have different levels of division. In my childhood midwest plumbers and professors went to the same parties more than they did at the same period in Boston.  At the beginning in the US the founders tried to establish a financial aristocracy rather than an inherited one. 

it may bethat as the financial divide again gets wider, as it was in the ‘gilded age’ there is more classism as people rail against this. People want to rub up against trump and feel the magic. Education is not seen as a clear path upward. There is anger sometimes at nepo babies in entertainment. Generations of college graduates work in university jobs  

People want a path upward in society for their families.  All they see are closed doors held by the elite. Why are others being helped, immigrants and so on, when I am not? Why is it harder for me? They cry out and MAGA offers them a place in its coattails. 
 

exited to add tht there are many elites and they all seem closed off.  Elite athletes running against foreigners nd people in wheelchairs. Pretty people who can afford plastic surgery. Lots of resentment. I see this. 

Edited Yest. at 12:33 PM by Affogato

[bluegirl147]

10 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

If you ask me, it's not our mistakes that define us, it's how we choose to handle it; do we reflect, learn and grow or do we get defensive, reject and deny? 

The problem is "mistakes" are being made that affect all of us.  So sure it's great if someone learns from their mistake but that doesn't fix the damage that mistake has caused.

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

Most uneducated people used to see a college education as a way to better themselves and their lives in many ways. They didn't project this into an inferiority complex when comparing themselves to educated people. They wanted to be more like them, not rebel against them and blame them for looking down on them. 

Being dumb made you famous.  We saw Paris Hilton ask is Walmart where they sell walls? We saw that Miss Teen USA contestant give one of the worst word salads we have ever seen when asked why so many Americans can't find the US on a map. And then we saw Donald Trump elected President. Of course it doesn't help when there are politicians and billionaires stoking the intellectual divide for their own purposes. 

 

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

I never looked down on people without college educations and no one I grew up with had that attitude. But if people brag and act like being ignorant is a badge of honor and then believe and do stupid things, well that's something I can't respect. And THAT's the issue, not a lack of education.

 

I live in a poorly educated state and trust me I know plenty of people who think there is something wrong with you if you further your education.  A lot of them truly believe if you go to college you will be brainwashed into believing that "liberal agenda George Soros is funding".  Meanwhile there is a local Catholic university  buying up a bunch of properties and influencing local politicians but they don't see anything wrong with that.

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Generations of college graduates work in university jobs  

Not to mention the college graduates who got to go to a college because either a parent worked there or graduated from there. When I worked at a college (it was a food service contracted to the college) there was talk about changing the policy of employee's kids could have free tuition.  They wanted to change it to only professor's kids enjoyed that. If you worked on the janitorial staff or some other department like that your kids wouldn't qualify any more. I left before I found out if that happened or not. 

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Lots of resentment.

There is a lot of resentment and it doesn't help when our government is being controlled by billionaires.  The game was already rigged but now unless you are a multi millionaire at least you don't even get to go to the game.

Edited Yest. at 01:33 PM by bluegirl147

[Ohiopirate02]

19 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

The game was already rigged but now unless you are a multi millionaire at least you don't even get to go to the game.

It helps to remember this and that a major aspect of the game is the pitting groups against each other. The people in charge are stoking the various divides so that the general public is more worried about someone they have deemed unworthy for whatever reason (education, class, race, sexuality, etc.) getting the slightest edge over them instead of the billionaires and multi-millionaires fleecing the country.

[Yeah No]

2 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Being dumb made you famous.  We saw Paris Hilton ask is Walmart where they sell walls? We saw that Miss Teen USA contestant give one of the worst word salads we have ever seen when asked why so many Americans can't find the US on a map. And then we saw Donald Trump elected President. Of course it doesn't help when there are politicians and billionaires stoking the intellectual divide for their own purposes.

Oh I saw that Miss Teen USA video, that went viral.

Believing you're just as good as anyone else exactly as you are is fine but don't make that an excuse not to better yourself and act like anyone who thinks you might benefit from doing so is a snob who thinks they're better than you. It's flawed logic. And yeah, Trump is stoking that for his own purposes.

We've often said here that Trump likes dumb people because he can dupe and use them. So of course he will encourage stupidity. And he wants to pit those people against the educated because he hates them and wants revenge.

14 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

I live in a poorly educated state and trust me I know plenty of people who think there is something wrong with you if you further your education.  A lot of them truly believe if you go to college you will be brainwashed into believing that "liberal agenda George Soros is funding". 

Oh I know people like that too even where I live. My husband would have loved to go to college if not for his dyslexia making that difficult (he's tried many times) so he was never taken in by that mentality. He always valued an education. I wouldn't have married him if he had not had those values. But he was taken in by that George Soros myth and even a lot of educated Republicans fell for it. Now that he sees what Trump, Musk and MAGA are doing the similarities are not lost on him and he is more skeptical about that. Thank goodness. I told him, "Everything Trump and the right wing pundits said the Dems. and Soros were doing is what he and Musk want to do and are trying to do with their own agenda". He can't refute that. He knows it. He just stays very quiet. 

24 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Not to mention the college graduates who got to go to a college because either a parent worked there or graduated from there. When I worked at a college (it was a food service contracted to the college) there was talk about changing the policy of employee's kids could have free tuition.  They wanted to change it to only professor's kids enjoyed that. If you worked on the janitorial staff or some other department like that your kids wouldn't qualify any more. I left before I found out if that happened or not. 

That's terrible! I worked at my university after graduation in Admissions and that's the only way I could afford my graduate education. I took out student loans for my undergrad.

[PRgal]

11 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I think you're making some assumptions here that don't apply the way you think they do. I grew up in the Bronx along with a lot of other people who did not have much money, whose parents did not go to college and who may have worked in blue collar jobs. Just because we did well in school didn't some how make us "elites" in any way, shape or form. In fact we were the ones bullied and hated by the "cool" people and they were not punching "up" in any way, shape or form. In fact they thought they were better than us! Those are assumptions that don't apply in the real world. I know you think you see things that others don't see - well so do I and I don't see that. 

Yes it does change that. My parents grew up dirt poor in the Great Depression. Neither one went to college (my mother did as an adult but many years later). Neither one was ever "elite" in any way, shape or form. In fact they would be offended if anyone ever said that of them. They struggled financially all of their lives. Their intelligence and good grades didn't earn them any kind of elite status in this world in anyone's eyes.

Being "elite" is a state of mind. It has nothing to do with education, social background or even income. Anyone can put on airs and be a snob and actually fool people into thinking they're "better" than them somehow. They have more "class" are "above" them or whatever. Elitists are poseurs, not genuine. Genuine intellectuals do not put on airs.

Speaking of Neil DeGrasse Tyson, he's an example of the type of person I went to school with, because he actually was a classmate of mine in my year at Bronx Science. He communicates to the public better because a) he's an extrovert and b) he's at heart a Bronx kid and "regular" guy, not an "elite" in an ivory tower. And sure, he could have been, but the point is that his intellect and grades did not automatically put him in that category.

Whoa!!  WHAAA??!!  All I have to say is this:  THAT IS SOOOOO COOOL!!!!!

[Kemper]

I think that at some point in our lives, we just have to find a way get past the anger and disappointment in how things turned out for us. And it may feel like having to climb Mt. Everest. But at the end of the day, we have to live and love the person we see in the mirror. Many times that could require counseling of some sort. I have no solution for any of this; but it hurts me to see so many people hurting so very badly. It helps to have friends - or just one - who can listen, squeeze our hand. Life can be an uphill battle.

[Bookish Jen]

Regarding intelligence and education, one of the first times I realized being relatively bright and seeking education might not be seen favorably was when I was still in college, and I had a boss who seemed to hate me for reasons I could not fathom at the time. I did exceptionally well in college. I had excellent grades, was a tutor for two years, was on the board of a prominent school organization, and was editor-in-chief of my college newspaper. And I did this all while working full time to support myself.

At this particular time, I proved to be a reliable and hard-working employee, and I was well-liked by my team. Yet, my boss would criticize me and even write me up for the most minor infraction. She was condescending and dismissive. Meanwhile, she treated my barely educated, lazy, and unreliable coworker with kid gloves, always making BS excuses for her and her sub-par work output. I've had friends tell me that this boss saw me as a threat, but who knows? Anyway, it doesn't matter because this particular company went out of business. Oh well.

 

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

Whoa!!  WHAAA??!!  All I have to say is this:  THAT IS SOOOOO COOOL!!!!!

Yeah, I can't deny it, it was cool. Even when Neil was in my physics class I knew he was destined for greatness somehow. A lot of science types are shy and awkward but he has great interpersonal skills which have served him well. And of course he was cute so I took photos of him with my Minolta, LOL. 😉

34 minutes ago, Bookish Jen said:

Regarding intelligence and education, one of the first times I realized being relatively bright and seeking education might not be seen favorably was when I was still in college, and I had a boss who seemed to hate me for reasons I could not fathom at the time. I did exceptionally well in college. I had excellent grades, was a tutor for two years, was on the board of a prominent school organization, and was editor-in-chief of my college newspaper. And I did this all while working full time to support myself.

At this particular time, I proved to be a reliable and hard-working employee, and I was well-liked by my team. Yet, my boss would criticize me and even write me up for the most minor infraction. She was condescending and dismissive. Meanwhile, she treated my barely educated, lazy, and unreliable coworker with kid gloves, always making BS excuses for her and her sub-par work output. I've had friends tell me that this boss saw me as a threat, but who knows? Anyway, it doesn't matter because this particular company went out of business. Oh well.

i had that problem all through my career. Not from men, but from women managers and higher that were threatened by my intelligence. I was never in competition with them at all being an executive assistant but it bothered them that I was their subordinate and I somehow made them feel inferior. Meanwhile they just LOVED the barely educated, lazy and unreliable assistants. To be honest, I never had this issue with male managers because men are not socialized to be in competition with women that way while women tend to be socialized to see other women as competition.

[Bookish Jen]

Now comes the ‘womanosphere’: the anti-feminist media telling women to be thin, fertile and Republican

This article mentions the odious extreme right wing women's online publication Evie Magazine. It's one thing to be conservative, but many of Evie's articles drip with thinly veiled racism, homophobia, transphobia, classism, xenophobia, and misogyny. Plus, Evie features misleading articles on vaccines, birth control, feminism, and mental health issues. 

[Absolom]

Quote

"DOGE's verified savings have been less than 1/10 of 1% of federal spending," says Jessica Riedl, a senior fellow and budget expert at the conservative Manhattan Institute.

From https://www.axios.com/2025/04/25/elon-musk-doge-legacy

I feel very slapped around, social security claim delayed months, and privacy invaded for basically zero accomplishment of anything positive.  

[bluegirl147]

29 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Not from men, but from women managers and higher that were threatened by my intelligence.

I've only had one woman manager and she was nice.  I know I was smarter than her but she had a college degree and that was why she was hired for her position.  That happens a lot.

[Yeah No]

On 4/24/2025 at 9:10 AM, tearknee said:

Remember, ordinary people on the street hate nerds and intellectuals. The last thing such a person are is an ordinary person on Struggle Street. And thus, bullying and insulting nerds/straight-A students is punching up not down. An intellectual elite is still an elite.

That's why voters are easy prey for populist demagogues like Trump or Orban.

If anyone is the poster child of what is considered "elite" it should be Trump. After all, he is Wharton school educated and comes from money and positional power. But he is proof that none of those things make a person an "elite" at all. It's attitude. Trump didn't have the attitude of a person with his education and advantages. And the intellectuals that would have expected it of him did not accept him as one of their own, that's for sure. But it wasn't because he was a "nerd". To them he was an unsophisticated, ignoramus that probably got all that thanks to the advantages that came along with his family's wealth and connections. A friend of mine (also from Queens) would say of Trump, "Oh, he has plenty of class. Too bad it's all lower", LOL. He wanted the intelligent intellectuals to accept him but he's a cartoon caricature and not that bright. And definitely not that self aware. So that's why he hates them and wants to pit "the little guy" against them. It's revenge. he felt snubbed by them. Well, sorry to say I understand why he was now that I know what he's really made of. And I'm not an elitist snob, either. As the old saying goes, "If the shoe fits, wear it"!

[Anela]

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/breaking/2025/04/25/milwaukee-county-judge-hannah-dugan-arrested-by-feds-at-courthouse/83270885007/

Quote

Milwaukee County Circuit Judge Hannah Dugan was charged April 25 with two felonies for her role in helping an undocumented immigrant avoid arrest after he appeared in her courtroom last week.

Dugan, 65, appeared before U.S. Magistrate Judge Stephen C. Dries during a brief hearing in a packed courtroom at the federal courthouse. Dugan, who was wearing a black dress with white flowers, made no public comments during the brief hearing.

As it ended, her attorney, Craig Mastantuono, told the court: "Judge Dugan wholeheartedly regrets and protests her arrest. It was not made in the interest of public safety."

The federal criminal charges have not yet been made available.

 

There is more at the link.  

[Yeah No]

10 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

I've only had one woman manager and she was nice.  I know I was smarter than her but she had a college degree and that was why she was hired for her position.  That happens a lot.

Oh for sure most of the women I worked for were nice, but sometimes I'd run into a particularly insecure one. And I knew of others I thankfully never supported. I think it's difficult to be a woman in the corporate world, at least one that wants to climb the corporate ladder, so it breeds that kind of thing, unfortunately. I haven't worked in it for a decade but back then there was still the "good ol' boy" network for men so they didn't feel as insecure because they usually had connections. The women did not. HRs were always trying to get women to form one of their own but it was like herding cats, unfortunately.

[kittykat]

The sad part is that women in the Corporate world are encouraged to see other women as competition.  If there is a big conference table there is usually only one seat available for the token woman.  So when another smart, ambitious woman comes up the other woman feels that she is coming for her seat.  Because it's so unfathomable that maybe she could take one of the male occupied seats. Noooooo. And it's men usually egging this on.  Obviously my analogy is incredibly simplified and there are many exceptions but it seems like these environments tend to encourage a mindset where women view other women as rivals instead of allies 

[PRgal]

45 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

I've only had one woman manager and she was nice.  I know I was smarter than her but she had a college degree and that was why she was hired for her position.  That happens a lot.

One of the woman managers I had hated half her team.  I have zero clue why, but she did.  And once she got rid of my direct supervisor, she got rid of me and all those she hated.

[EtheltoTillie]

Trump was never high class, although they had money.  His father descended from someone who ran brothels in Alaska.  He built a real estate business in the outer boroughs, which was not considered high class.  I'm sure many corners were cut.  That's why Trump wanted to make his mark in Manhattan.  Trump probably barely graduated college, who knows how.  He can't have ever taken a test or written a paper.  It's amazing his sister became a federal judge. 

If Trump had been an ordinary person, he would have gone to my NYC public high school, Jamaica High School, which was near his neighborhood.  Instead he was sent to military school because he was a miscreant.

Edited Yest. at 05:44 PM by EtheltoTillie

[Kemper]

If anyone ever watched Countess Luanne on Real Housewives of New York (don't judge me) ...she has a signature song. And a cabaret act. 😁  The song? "Money Can't Buy You Class" ... lol.  Neither can an education. Or who you marry. 

My teen years revolved around marrying Paul McCartney. I still check to see if he is still married/divorced.  Mr. Kemper would be happy to see me living in an English manor house. Raising Corgis. 

Edited Yest. at 05:52 PM by Kemper

[fastiller]

11 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Trump was never high class, although they had money.  His father descended from someone who ran brothels in Alaska.  He built a real estate business in the outer boroughs, which was not considered high class.  I'm sure many corners were cut.  That's why Trump wanted to make his mark in Manhattan.  Trump probably barely graduated college, who knows how.  He can't have ever taken a test or written a paper.  It's amazing his sister became a federal judge. 

If Trump had been an ordinary person, he would have gone to my NYC public high school, Jamaica High School, which was near his neighborhood.  Instead he was sent to military school because he was a miscreant.

Small world!!!!  @EtheltoTillie - I was zoned for Jamaica HS and would've gone there had my father not shipped me over to Ireland for HS/Secondary School.  (He did so b/c he didn't know how to take care of me after my Mum died.)

Edited Yest. at 05:50 PM by fastiller
every ( should have a corresponding )

[PRgal]

4 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Trump is crass.  He is tacky.  He thinks money makes a person. He is proof money can't buy class.  He had so many opportunities afforded to him and he fucked up most of them.  Including being President of the United States. Dumb and Dumber have followed in his footsteps.  Ivanka has a veil of respectability but she is still a Trump. I thought maybe Tiffany was OK but I remember reading something about her that made me think nope she is just as bad. And Barron gives me the creeps.  He might turn out to be the worst one of all.

He's EXACTLY what certain demographics think is "high class."  It's gold EVERYTHING.  He's a character.  It's also very stereotypical "new money."  But to the extreme. 

[EtheltoTillie]

@fastiller  I posted a laugh emoji because of the coincidence, but that is also very sad.  So sorry. 

[fastiller]

@EtheltoTillie - I understand.  Thanks for the comment.  It was actually the best thing he could've done for me.  Made some of my dearest friends in Ireland and got to know my family there much better than my siblings (who were all 'cooked' by then and out of HS (Jamaica HS, incidentally)) did or do.  Also gave me the opportunity to travel in the UK and Europe as a teenager; wouldn't have had that had I stayed in Queens.

 

[bluegirl147]

14 minutes ago, PRgal said:

He's EXACTLY what certain demographics think is "high class."  It's gold EVERYTHING.  He's a character.  It's also very stereotypical "new money."  But to the extreme. 

It's true. He is what a lot of MAGA think is a classy rich person. And what they would want to be if they were rich.

[Anela]

7 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

It's true. He is what a lot of MAGA think is a classy rich person. And what they would want to be if they were rich.

And they don’t expect him to be a better person. If he was treated the same way women are treated as candidates, he wouldn’t have got very far. 

[annzeepark914]

Whenever I see that gaudy gold decor on the fireplace (behind our kingster when he's babbling to the media), I cringe. 

Here's another observation: if any Democratic president's wife lived separately and did basically nada as First Lady, there would be nonstop snarking & screaming from the irate Republicans.  Elon needed to investigate how many tax dollars are being wasted on protecting several residences (including his golf clubs). Don't get me started on the weekly schleps on board Air Force One plus the second plane hauling The Beast 🤬