S01.E01: Pilot

[fastiller]

1 hour ago, EtheltoTillie said:

  Well, I am a licensed NYS lawyer, and her conduct violated several rules.  There are rules against dishonesty within practice and outside of practice.  You can't use dishonesty to get things from a witness (pretending to know the prisoner); you can't use dishonesty to get past security; you can't lie to your colleagues about being a broke widow or that your grandson hates you.  Oh, yeah, fake references.  Then she turns out to be super honest to that other witness.  Kind of incompetent.  The twist with the 911 call was great, though.

I wonder whether any of this will matter at all.  Considering she's probably not really worried about actually practicing any kind or real law.  She's just there to get her revenge.

[Bastet]

Oy.  I'd have never watched this if not for Kathy Bates, and I wouldn't watch another episode if not for Kathy Bates.  And even she wasn't as good in this as I expected.  The complete lack of realism, I expected (which is why I avoid most of these shows), but this was clunky overall (even for a pilot), like they were just counting on the twist and didn't need to bother with the rest of the episode.

The writing is painfully aimed at the viewer with the shortest attention span; flashing back to the things we had just seen as contrasted with the truth at home, rather than just letting us listen to reality and remember the ways it differs from how she'd presented herself?  This is why network shows are seen as lesser these days!  That bugged the shit out of me, almost as much as the ridiculous premise of her being hired by a prestigious NYC firm with faked credentials.

I'll give it a few more episodes, though.

[seacliffsal]

I'm struck how this is very similarly constructed to Elsbeth.  Both women are 'brilliant' women.  Although Matlock is older (and 'invisible'), Elsbeth is middle-aged so may face similar 'age' stereotypes.  They are both also where they are to conduct 'investigations' on the downlow (Elsbeth presented as procedural checker/coordinator while investigating the captain, and Matlock as an associate lawyer while investigating three members of the firm).  Both women use humor to misdirect from their intelligence.  Probably coincidental, but I do see similarities between the two shows.

[DanaK]

8 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

I'm struck how this is very similarly constructed to Elsbeth.  Both women are 'brilliant' women.  Although Matlock is older (and 'invisible'), Elsbeth is middle-aged so may face similar 'age' stereotypes.  They are both also where they are to conduct 'investigations' on the downlow (Elsbeth presented as procedural checker/coordinator while investigating the captain, and Matlock as an associate lawyer while investigating three members of the firm).  Both women use humor to misdirect from their intelligence.  Probably coincidental, but I do see similarities between the two shows.

That may be why they are paired on the same night going forward

[AnimeMania]

35 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

Matlock as an associate lawyer while investigating three members of the firm

I think it is more that three, I am pretty sure there was another row of 3 photos below the main characters, with Elijah Walker as one of the suspects. Then there were other photos, but "who knows" exactly what the board was representing.

[Starchild]

4 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I don't know what she is playing with.  Is she faking a bar listing as well as her references?  That would require some advanced hacking.

There was a hint in the dialogue that grandson might be a hacker.

[Bastet]

6 minutes ago, Starchild said:

There was a hint in the dialogue that grandson might be a hacker.

Yeah, he laid out what he did (I don't speak tech, though, so I don't know what it was).

[Bastet]

Also, it turns out a co-worker also watched this, and we were talking about how we didn't like that it was women who didn't like Matty right off the bat and men who did.  We tried a positive spin, that the men just thoroughly dismissed her, so she was harmless to them, but there was a part of the women that didn't succumb to the "just an old lady" mentality, so instinctively reacted to her as if she was still a threat.  That leaves us with the beyond tiresome myth that women see each other as threats, but we'll see how the relationships progress since there was already change by the end of this first case.

[shapeshifter]

22 minutes ago, Starchild said:

There was a hint in the dialogue that grandson might be a hacker.

I thought it was clear the grandson was a hacker.

• [ALFIE] Perfect name. Fits with Maddie. Reminds us of Mom. I assume you got the job. Because there's been traffic to the LinkeIn I made. Plus I rerouted an HR reference check to Pops.

[EtheltoTillie]

41 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Yeah, he laid out what he did (I don't speak tech, though, so I don't know what it was).

yes, he said he sent a the fake references in and had grandpa answer the call from the firm. 

Edited September 23 by EtheltoTillie

[baldryanr]

4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Then comes the twist.  Yeah, it gives another layer to the show and makes it more than  just being a weekly procedural but i immediately thought that Maddie, for all her cunning, has to know that a single law firm could not have stemmed the tide on Big Pharma and the Opiod epidemic?  Right?  I mean, she has to know this?

Sure, which is why she's going after one relatively small, concrete piece of the puzzle instead of flying off on some delusional crusade about addressing the many, many root causes.  Rational?  Probably not, but most people seeking revenge tend to have blinders.

[EtheltoTillie]

2 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

I'm struck how this is very similarly constructed to Elsbeth.  Both women are 'brilliant' women.  Although Matlock is older (and 'invisible'), Elsbeth is middle-aged so may face similar 'age' stereotypes.  They are both also where they are to conduct 'investigations' on the downlow (Elsbeth presented as procedural checker/coordinator while investigating the captain, and Matlock as an associate lawyer while investigating three members of the firm).  Both women use humor to misdirect from their intelligence.  Probably coincidental, but I do see similarities between the two shows.

I really like Elsbeth, but I don't think her investigations were on the downlow.  She was brought in openly as an investigator for a federal consent decree.  However, she is sly in how she gets people's confidence. 

2 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

Sure, which is why she's going after one relatively small, concrete piece of the puzzle instead of flying off on some delusional crusade about addressing the many, many root causes.  Rational?  Probably not, but most people seeking revenge tend to have blinders.

I'm thinking this is less about blinders or singleminded revenge but rather poor writing. 

[Bastet]

1 minute ago, EtheltoTillie said:

yes, he said he sent a the fake references in and had someone answer the call from the firm. 

20 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

[ALFIE] Perfect name. Fits with Maddie. Reminds us of Mom. I assume you got the job. Because there's been traffic to the LinkeIn I made. Plus I rerouted an HR reference check to Pops.

Ha, so it wasn't even tech talk and I still tuned it out.  I think I was busy trying to get a good look at her house.

I forgot to note: I loved seeing Colleen Camp (as the "old ho" who helped them [and LOL at her insisting on that instead of "aging prostitute"]).  She'll always be Yvette from Clue to me, but I love seeing her pop up in things I watch.

[EtheltoTillie]

That was Colleen Camp!?  She's the hippie mom in one of my fave movies:  Valley Girl.  Don't judge me. 

[Nashville]

56 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

That was Colleen Camp!?  She's the hippie mom in one of my fave movies:  Valley Girl.  Don't judge me. 

Yup!  I wasn’t even suspecting a Colleen Camp appearance, but my wife spotted her name in the opening credits.

[Irlandesa]

3 hours ago, Bastet said:

Also, it turns out a co-worker also watched this, and we were talking about how we didn't like that it was women who didn't like Matty right off the bat and men who did.

I'd have to rewatch but that's not the impression I got.  I don't think anyone had real animosity towards her or saw her as a threat.  If anything, they saw her as a potential burden since, by her own admission, it had been 30 years since she practiced law.  That's why Olympia didn't want to work with her.  And Julian volunteering her for Olympia's case was a way to get a little dig in at his ex. 

Olympia's issues were the lack of recent experience and that Matty didn't do everything she could for their client because she connected with the witness.  Olympia was wrong about what that connection was but she was right that it happened. 

7 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Yeah, it gives another layer to the show and makes it more than  just being a weekly procedural but i immediately thought that Maddie, for all her cunning, has to know that a single law firm could not have stemmed the tide on Big Pharma and the Opiod epidemic?  Right?  I mean, she has to know this?

I think she does but based on the fact that she's mad about a specific piece of evidence she thinks was deliberately hidden by the law firm, I'm guessing she's not really trying to get vengeance for the opioid epidemic but rather she's focused on the specific drug that either her daughter got hooked on or the one that killed her daughter.  And she thinks that whatever the people in the law firm did, they did something that broke the law. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 24 by Irlandesa

[Bastet]

27 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I'd have to rewatch but that's not the impression I got.  I don't think anyone had real animosity towards her or saw her as a threat.  If anything, they saw her as a potential burden since, by her own admission, it had been 30 years since she practiced law.

Whatever their reasons, stated and unstated, the women had more negative initial reactions to her than the men did.

[Irlandesa]

25 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Whatever their reasons, stated and unstated, the women had more negative initial reactions to her than the men did.

But there was only one guy who had any significant time in her story.  I guess time will tell.

[babyrambo]

4 hours ago, Bastet said:

We tried a positive spin, that the men just thoroughly dismissed her, so she was harmless to them, but there was a part of the women that didn't succumb to the "just an old lady" mentality, so instinctively reacted to her as if she was still a threat.  That leaves us with the beyond tiresome myth that women see each other as threats, but we'll see how the relationships progress since there was already change by the end of this first case.

Outside of the regular procedural tv dramatics and hand waving, I thought this aspect, and the male associate calling his female peer a bitch and Matlock pretty much agreeing was really lazy and dated writing. I’m sure she’d have heard worse in her day and the associate was certainly rude but it was unnecessary & incongruent with the vibe the show was going for re: (older) female, empowerment, imo. But that’s how I felt about the fact that both of the supporting female character’s ambition was written as almost callous. It’s such a tired & shallow trope and maybe I’m giving the show too much credit but I think it’s better than that.

I did like the episode overall though, despite these shortcomings. Never heard of the original, so I went in expecting nothing but I’ve always been a fan of Kathy Bates. She and the actress that played Olympia—stunning suits—were the best part & I look forward to seeing her come around to Maddie because I think they’ve got the best chemistry. I liked that they highlighted how Maddie’s quirks worked in her favour rather than making everyone else bumbling fools. I also liked Olympia and her father in law’s scene; his reminder about them still being family surprisingly touching. 

A few other people have mentioned the similarities to Elsbeth and I definitely see that. But I’m not sure how smart it is to air them back to back, because I think Elsbeth is sharper, better written, and also just more fun, which might make the dips in this series stand out more to a viewer of both.

And though this is only the pilot and things are likely to get more nuanced and complex, CBS has a way of either creating some sleeper hits or painfully formulaic and bland series. Hopefully this will aim to be the former.  

[gail56]

I knew there had to be a specific reason she wanted to be in that particular law firm [and it wasn't money], but didn't know what it was. So the twist at the end was great!

However, being a grandmother who is 67 years old, seeing someone her age with such a young grandson surprised me. My twin grandsons are in their early 20's!

[EtheltoTillie]

34 minutes ago, gail56 said:

I knew there had to be a specific reason she wanted to be in that particular law firm [and it wasn't money], but didn't know what it was. So the twist at the end was great!

There was also a neat parallel between the COTW and the drug mystery, that is, that someone hid or destroyed crucial evidence. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

40 minutes ago, babyrambo said:

Never heard of the original

The original ran in the mid-80s and Andy Griffith played the lead character of Matlock. And also had a few movies as well, though I don't know if they aired during the show's run or after it ended.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, babyrambo said:

But that’s how I felt about the fact that both of the supporting female character’s ambition was written as almost callous. It’s such a tired & shallow trope and maybe I’m giving the show too much credit but I think it’s better than that.

Yes, there is this bizarre world at play in which ambitious becomes a negative when exhibited by women; art reflects this reality, but also exacerbates and thus perpetuates it.  I hope this show rises above that, showing the ways in which age, race/ethnicity/, and sexual orientation (if applicable) affect the degree of that oppression, alongside the commonality that all women are subjected to it to a greater degree than all men.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, gail56 said:

However, being a grandmother who is 67 years old, seeing someone her age with such a young grandson surprised me. My twin grandsons are in their early 20's!

I’m 71 with grandsons aged 2½ yrs and 8 mos. So Maddie was younger than I was when her grandson was born. Maddie probably finished law school and maybe established her career before she had her daughter. 

[baldryanr]

7 hours ago, Bastet said:

Whatever their reasons, stated and unstated, the women had more negative initial reactions to her than the men did.

Well, the irony is that they're right.  She's working on the inside to bring at least one important member of the firm down, which will have a negative impact on everyone else.

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

The original ran in the mid-80s and Andy Griffith played the lead character of Matlock. And also had a few movies as well, though I don't know if they aired during the show's run or after it ended.

Plus the joke is that only old people watched it - Grandpa Simpson loved the show.

[cameron]

12 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

I'm struck how this is very similarly constructed to Elsbeth.  Both women are 'brilliant' women.  Although Matlock is older (and 'invisible'), Elsbeth is middle-aged so may face similar 'age' stereotypes.  They are both also where they are to conduct 'investigations' on the downlow (Elsbeth presented as procedural checker/coordinator while investigating the captain, and Matlock as an associate lawyer while investigating three members of the firm).  Both women use humor to misdirect from their intelligence.  Probably coincidental, but I do see similarities between the two shows.

Thought the same thing and I don't like either show.

[Babalu06]

Coincidentally, I recently started watching The Good Wife, and the episode I saw just the night before had an almost identical case (innocent Black man incarcerated for years; real perpetrator with same m.o. committing another crime while our guy was locked up), so I'm not very impressed with this show's originality so far. Nor would I be even if I hadn't seen The Good Wife.

I was spoiled by a Facebook comment that there would be a big twist, though not the specifics, so the ending didn’t have as much of an impact on me as it should have.

I’ll give it a few more episodes because of Kathy Bates and the rest of the cast. I especially like the young male associate, and Skye Marshall is stunning. (I previously saw her on a rotten, short-loved medical drama a couple of years ago, which I watched solely for Jason Isaacs.)

[chessiegal]

We watched because of Kathy Bates. Even with the plot twist at the end, I was not impressed. Maybe my expectations were too high. I'll give it another try, but it's going to have to get much better to hold my interest.

[gail56]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I’m 71 with grandsons aged 2½ yrs and 8 mos. So Maddie was younger than I was when her grandson was born. Maddie probably finished law school and maybe established her career before she had her daughter. 

True! And thinking about it, if my older son has more children  [unlikely] and my youngest son would have a child [also unlikely and tried in the past but not trying now] I also would have very young grandchildren!

[tinkerbell]

3 hours ago, Babalu06 said:

I’ll give it a few more episodes because of Kathy Bates and the rest of the cast. I especially like the young male associate, and Skye Marshall is stunning. 

You mean Jason Ritter?

Son of John Ritter.

[incandescent]

1 hour ago, tinkerbell said:

You mean Jason Ritter?

Son of John Ritter.

Jason Ritter is a partner (but not an equity partner). The associates are the two baby lawyers who do leg work with Kathy Bates.

 

I like the twist, but I sure hope they lay off flashbacks going forward. I remember the facade she constructed 30 minutes ago, show. You don't have to remind me while deconstructing it.

[cameron]

5 hours ago, chessiegal said:

We watched because of Kathy Bates. Even with the plot twist at the end, I was not impressed. Maybe my expectations were too high. I'll give it another try, but it's going to have to get much better to hold my interest.

Totally agree.

[AZChristian]

Bored with the first 45 minutes, intrigued by the twist at the end.

And then I started to feel like "Matty" was just an older, female version of Reacher (the one on Prime Video).  The fact that two guys were involved in the death of Reacher's brother did not make it right for him to shoot them in the back.  The fact that the principals of the law firm were responsible for Matty's daughter's death does not make it right for her to violate laws and act as an "inside vigilante" to bring down the firm.  If she's such a hot-shot lawyer, she should be able to work legally within the system to bring them down.

Too many plot holes and unrealistic scenarios.  I'm out.

[Johannah]

So, contrary to popular opinion, I didn't like the twist. 

I enjoyed the show and figured she was lying most of the time since she she showed us early on that she was manipulative to get her way.  I had no problems with that, it being a TV show and whatnot.

I didn't mind her actually being rich and happily married.  I also didn't particularly mind that she was interested in pharmaceutical companies to perhaps right some wrongs.  BUT, her whole revenge agenda to take someone in the company down, just made me roll my eyes.  Can we please have a show without a revenge, hidden agenda, underlying devious plot?  Just, you know, a fun lawyer show with a COTW, good guys winning using fun tricky methods and not a deep dark revenge secret that will last at least until the end of the season.  

I know I'm a broken record complaining about this with every show, but that's because it's become standard in every show!

I'll keep watching until it becomes bogged down in the revenge plot.  Maybe she'll find out nobody in the firm is guilty and maybe they just got played by the pharmaceutical company and they'll band together to take down the company.  Nah, that'll mean she's wrong and they won't go there .

Small aside... The divorcing lawyers seem an unlikely pair. Maybe because I was projecting happy-go-lucky John Ritter onto his son's character and the lady lawyer was so serious and straight-laced.

[Shrek]

57 minutes ago, Johannah said:

 

  Just, you know, a fun lawyer show with a COTW, good guys winning using fun tricky methods and not a deep dark revenge secret that will last at least until the end of the season.  

 

 

I rewatched Boston Legal about a month or so ago & it still stands up as a fun lawyer show for me, some of the subjects are even closet to home now than they were all those years ago when it ended in 2008 w]and James Spader looked so young. Harder to believe is that the 2nd season had 27 episodes, imagine that nowadays. 

Edited September 24 by Shrek

[chessiegal]

1 minute ago, Shrek said:

Harder to believe is that the 2nd season had 27 episodes, imagine that nowadays. 

Leave It to Beaver (1957-1963) had 39 episodes for each of its 6 seasons, which was not unusual back then.

[Johannah]

25 minutes ago, Shrek said:

I rewatched Boston Legal about a month or so ago & it still stands up as a fun lawyer show for me, some of the subjects are even closet to home now than they were all those years ago when it ended in 2008 w]and James Spader looked so young. Harder to believe is that the 2nd season had 27 episodes, imagine that nowadays. 

Hmm.  Didn't watch that show.  I'll have to see if it's on Amazon Prime, the only extra channel I get.

[Nashville]

16 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

The original ran in the mid-80s and Andy Griffith played the lead character of Matlock. And also had a few movies as well, though I don't know if they aired during the show's run or after it ended.

 

12 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Plus the joke is that only old people watched it - Grandpa Simpson loved the show.

Yup - Matlock and Murder, She Wrote are both officially classified as Old People shows; if you watch them regularly, you are legally obligated to go to a restaurant and order the Early Bird Special at least twice a month.  😄

[Babalu06]

6 hours ago, tinkerbell said:

You mean Jason Ritter?

Son of John Ritter.

 

5 hours ago, incandescent said:

Jason Ritter is a partner (but not an equity partner). The associates are the two baby lawyers who do leg work with Kathy Bates.

Yes, I meant baby lawyer. I’m not as lazy as I was last night, so I looked at IMDb, and the character’s name is Billy (no last name yet), played by David Del Rio. Jason Ritter is fine, too.

[seacliffsal]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

 

Yup - Matlock and Murder, She Wrote are both officially classified as Old People shows; if you watch them regularly, you are legally obligated to go to a restaurant and order the Early Bird Special at least twice a month.  😄

Sigh.  I am firmly in that category now as I am watching shows that I did not watch when they first aired and I was younger.  Add Columbo and Diagnosis Murder to that list and this is one happy watcher of Old People Shows.  Oh, and who doesn't like a good Early Bird Dinner Special?

[AnimeMania]

26 minutes ago, Babalu06 said:

the character’s name is Billy (no last name yet)

Billy Martinez

[Nashville]

4 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

Sigh.  I am firmly in that category now as I am watching shows that I did not watch when they first aired and I was younger.  Add Columbo and Diagnosis Murder to that list and this is one happy watcher of Old People Shows.  Oh, and who doesn't like a good Early Bird Dinner Special?

Ain’t a dern thang wrong with it - and I’m with you on Columbo (and McCloud, even).  😁

[Starchild]

McCloud! I watched that first run and I was a teen. Old soul I guess.

[GHScorpiosRule]

14 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

Sigh.  I am firmly in that category now as I am watching shows that I did not watch when they first aired and I was younger.  Add Columbo and Diagnosis Murder to that list and this is one happy watcher of Old People Shows.  Oh, and who doesn't like a good Early Bird Dinner Special?

I guess I wuz an "old" child/teen, as I watched and loved all of these during their original run and enjoyed them immensely. Original Matlock due to my love for Andy Griffith (Yes! I watch The Andy Griffith Show for Andy and Opie!), Murder, She Wrote, for Angela Lansbury(and laugh at @Bastet's theory that Jessica was the killer of all!), Columbo (well, too young when it first started, so that was in syndication), Diagnosis Murder (Dick Van Dyke, and now I'm glad Chachi was fired or left or whatever), and even McMillan and Wife (Hellooooo! Rock Hudson!)

Those shows were much better than more than half the crap that is out there now today.

Ahem.

Carry on.

[Johannah]

If I'm remembering this right, and it was a looong time ago... We watched those shows because we only had one TV and watched what my mother wanted to watch.  Sometimes, Dad would pick (sports). 

[MMEButterfly]

On 9/23/2024 at 11:14 AM, shapeshifter said:

Could this be called a Matlock "spoof"?
Or perhaps it's that the main character is spoofing the OG?

 

Since at least 2 of the viewers here saw this flaw in the premise, and since the writers seem capable enough, they could pivot to showing Madeline Matlock realizing she was being just as self-righteous as @AnimeMania describes. 

 

Beau Bridges could be a red herring.

I may be giving CBS too much credit, but I considered the three suspect attorneys were presented in a wooden stereotypical manner because it would be revealed there were underneath currents to be revealed. I'm in because I'm always in with Kathy Bates. The couldn't possibly be true aspects I put under the category of fiction. 

[Turtle Wexler]

On 9/23/2024 at 7:28 PM, Bastet said:

I forgot to note: I loved seeing Colleen Camp (as the "old ho" who helped them [and LOL at her insisting on that instead of "aging prostitute"]).  She'll always be Yvette from Clue to me, but I love seeing her pop up in things I watch.

Yes! And I loved that she was in a scene that was a reference to an iconic section of Fried Green Tomatoes! 

[Starchild]

23 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I guess I wuz an "old" child/teen, as I watched and loved all of these during their original run and enjoyed them immensely. Original Matlock due to my love for Andy Griffith (Yes! I watch The Andy Griffith Show for Andy and Opie!), Murder, She Wrote, for Angela Lansbury(and laugh at @Bastet's theory that Jessica was the killer of all!), Columbo (well, too young when it first started, so that was in syndication), Diagnosis Murder (Dick Van Dyke, and now I'm glad Chachi was fired or left or whatever), and even McMillan and Wife (Hellooooo! Rock Hudson!)

Those shows were much better than more than half the crap that is out there now today.

Ahem.

Carry on.

One of my favourites was The Streets of San Francisco. Love me some Karl Malden!

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

One of my favourites was The Streets of San Francisco. Love me some Karl Malden!

and a young Michael Douglas!

[Bastet]

Before we wind up with a mod note in only our first episode thread, let's redirect ourselves -- discussion of other "old people" shows enjoyed should move to this forum's small talk thread.

Edited September 26 by Bastet