S02.E08: The Queen Who Ever Was

[Sakura12]

So Heleana's read the books and spoiled Aemond's ending. She said Aegon will sit on a wooden throne, not the iron one. 

One of Rhaenyra's younger sons is also named Aegon. Everyone is already related to each other in multiple ways, stop giving everyone the same name too. 

Poor Caraxs was so happy to see his friends. He was screaming guys I'm down here, get me out of here, this place sucks. Lol

So we wasted all this time for Daemon to realize Rhaenyra is the Queen. 

Are they having Rheana claim Sheepkiller? That's new, as well as Sunfyre being dead? Why would they tell Aegon his dragon is dead if he's not. They need more Dragons. And Aemond maybe if you hadn't fried your brother you would have has another dragon rider. Do you really expect Heleana to do anything. 

Now we wait 2 years to see what happens. 

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

So Heleana's read the books and spoiled Aemond's ending. She said Aegon will sit on a wooden throne, not the iron one.

I didn't read the books so Helaena gave me something to look forward to.

Me and Aemond have been beefing since Driftmark.

Edited August 6 by AntFTW

[millennium]

7 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

agree her voice was the same, but she reminded me a bit of the Greyjoys.  I think it's a good reminder that even in societies of extreme patriarchy,  there will always be kickers women carving out spaces for themselves.

They should have used an actress similar to the one who played Yara Greyjoy.   She was 100% credible in that role.

Abigail Thorn was a bad choice.   If they're going to give us a female warrior, give us someone who can make us believe she's a fierce woman, a true warrior, not someone who seems like a character pulled from a bad comedy movie about Vikings.

[proserpina65]

16 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Whereas Ewan was a bit one note alas other than that one scene at the high council when he challenged Aemon in high Valaryan. I find him charismatic and handsome as anything but there's not much depth at this point. He is EEEvil.

That was the writing, not his acting, which was stellar.

 

9 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I didn't read the books so Helaena gave me something to look forward to.

Me and Aemond have been beefing since Driftmark.

Whereas I've been completely and totally on his side since Driftmark.

[Johnny Dollar]

To the poster upthread who compared Addam to Milli Vanilli, I just have to say “Girl you know it’s true.”

[paigow]

17 hours ago, paigow said:

When Larys was running through a bunch of new titles for Aegon, he forgot Unsullied

Not more awkward than already having a Stepfather Uncle - who is also your  Father - In - Law

 

 

[Jack Shaftoe]

10 hours ago, millennium said:

Abigail Thorn was a bad choice.   If they're going to give us a female warrior, give us someone who can make us believe she's a fierce woman, a true warrior, not someone who seems like a character pulled from a bad comedy movie about Vikings.

To be fair the writing was very much like pulled from a bad comedy (the cannibalism "joke", for example), so the acting matched it.  It wasn't intentionally silly for sure but still.

The more I think about it, the sillier I find Alicent and Rhaenyra's meeting. Not only was it insanely risky on the part of Alicent (and her Kingsguard protector should never have agreed to what looked like obvious treason) but realistically the entire Dragonstone should soon know that their Queen had one of her arch enemies in her grasp and inexplicably let her go.  But I am sure it will never come up as legimitate criticism since the writers won't shut up about the "love story" between Alicent and Rhaenyra and much prefer to have randos accuse Rhaenyra of stuff she hasn't done, so she could look like a poor persecuted victim.

[tennisgurl]

I know that this franchise loves to do a big episode in the second to last episode of the season and the last episode ties up loose ends and sets up the next season, but this was pretty sadly boring to me. If it was just episode three or four it would have been just fine, but I would have liked a bit more real plot momentum instead of more spinning our wheels until the battle really gets started. There were a lot of interesting and fun moments and the ending was certainly exciting, but I was mostly like "that's it?"

Those flashforwards to Game of Thrones just made me sad thinking of how this all ends and what an anticlimax it all turns out to be.

The acting between Alicent and Rhaenyra was excellent, but I'm not sure how I feel about Alicent being so wishy washy. She's been behind so much of this, she could have slowed things down a million times, especially in regards to her sons, but I would have honestly preferred if she just committed to her side at this point instead of sneaking around trying to throw her son under the bus. I can appreciate that she doesn't want this war to escalate, but things are already moving, its hard to shove all of this back into the box once its been opened. I feel like the show always wants to keep both Alicent and Rhaenyra sympathetic but it makes them less compelling and dynamic when they keep letting the men around them make all the big choices and keep having them go back and fourth on whether to press on or pull back. 

As random as it felt, I really enjoyed Tyland's adventures in Essos, I can picture him seeing his brother next and being like "who's the boring one NOW bro?" The pirate captain was a fun character, I am interested to see if they do anything with her in the next season. 

Ulf is going to be a major wild card, I don't know if he will actually defect to the Greens but I can see him getting tired of the war and following orders and will just go off on his own to have fun, and I can also see that taking a dark turn if he gets too high on his own importance. 

You know who really ended this season on a happy note? Ser Simon, who is finally getting rid of Daemon and his drama. He's going to be thrilled to hand over the keys to this money trap to the Freys and enjoy some peace and quiet. 

[proserpina65]

25 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

The more I think about it, the sillier I find Alicent and Rhaenyra's meeting. Not only was it insanely risky on the part of Alicent (and her Kingsguard protector should never have agreed to what looked like obvious treason) but realistically the entire Dragonstone should soon know that their Queen had one of her arch enemies in her grasp and inexplicably let her go.  But I am sure it will never come up as legimitate criticism since the writers won't shut up about the "love story" between Alicent and Rhaenyra and much prefer to have randos accuse Rhaenyra of stuff she hasn't done, so she could look like a poor persecuted victim.

Agreed.  It was piss poor writing in service of a story line which ended halfway through season one.

 

[CountryGirl]

12 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Poor Caraxs was so happy to see his friends. He was screaming guys I'm down here, get me out of here, this place sucks. Lol

He really was.

I didn't hate the finale and there were actually parts I loved. Like Rhaenyra once again taking matters into her own hands and flying with Addam and Seasmoke to Harrenhal to finally get some answers from Daemon, whom I never doubted for a moment in terms of his loyalty to Rhaenyra. He's a lot of bluster but in the end, he's loyal to her as he was to his brother. 

I also wasn't surprised she chose Addam to accompany her as I don't trust Ulf as far as I can throw him and with how Hugh was all in with Team Green earlier in the season, I'm getting betrayal vibes from him as well.

Helaena reading Aemond for filth was another highlight but the jumping from her spouting vague prophecies like "beware the beast beneath the boards" to straight-up predictions, i.e. Aemond dying at the God's Eye was not well done at all.

I really didn't need to see another scene of Rhaenyra and Alicent. All the sneaking around undetected beggars belief and I know TPTB are angling for me to feel sorry for Alicent but I don't. She set this whole thing in motion when she heard what she wanted to hear on Viserys' deathbed and moved as quickly as possible to crown Aegon, who didn't even want the damn thing. It's a bit late to unring the bell now as Rhaenyra so aptly pointed out. I feel sorry for Helaena and her young daughter as far as the Greens are concerned but that's where my sympathy ends. Aemond is just a monster and despite Tom Glynn Carney's sympathetic portrayal, I can never forget that Aegon II is a rapist who sent his bastards to the fighting pits.

The final montage of battle preparations got me excited for a hot minute until I realized it will likely be 2026 before S3 airs.

I get the writers' strike happened while S2 was being filmed and that hampered things and that obviously they couldn't shoot their wad in two seasons, but so much of this season, the finale included, seemed like build up. Because outside of TwinBowl, Rook's Rest, and the dragon claiming*, much of the season was filler for me.

*I'm still annoyed we didn't get to see Addam's first ride on Seasmoke and Rhaena's claiming Sheepstealer isn't likely to be shown in S3. I am hoping it's just an unfortunate coincidence but it's not a good look for the two POC riders to not get their big dragon-claiming scenes while Ulf and Hugh got theirs. 

All of my quibbles aside, I'll be here in 2026 because duh...dragons. Even if it's going to break my heart as it did the first time, when that bastard NK speared poor Viserion many times over. 

Edited August 6 by CountryGirl

[magdalene]

I think Warners screwed the show by not letting them have 10 episodes for the season and cutting it down to 8. They should have ended the season with one of the big upcoming battles to end with a bang, instead of this 1 hour preview reel. But obviously they didn't have the budget left to do that.

The show screwed itself by insisting on keeping Alicent front and center. The jury is still out whether giving a particular dragon to Rhaena will work.  I am dubious about them cutting one of the most dynamic book characters to do that.

Two years is really too long for the audience having to wait for the show to come back.  But the show is very expensive and difficult to produce, so there's that. I do miss the good old days when shows managed to produce 22 episodes a season and audiences would only have to wait through a summer hiatus to get another season. 

Luckily we will get like 6 episodes of the Dunk and Egg show next year. I enjoyed reading those stories so I am looking forward to this.

[Uncle JUICE]

COunt me among the chorus of the underwhelmed, but mainly because it's a season finale. I bet if you shuffled around stuff that happened in the last two episodes (since we're already off book anyway), it would have worked a little better.

Basically delete Tyland Lannister and that ridiculous Pirates Voyage broke ass looking community theater group sequence. That was confounding. Move all but the last shot of Rhaena running around the vale (on its surface this is ridiculous but I digreess) to Ep 7. 

Modify the Rhaenycent scene so that it's also in Ep7, and Alicent is asking Rhaenyra to accept that the war is over, for no reason other than Vaghar, and Rhaenyra's barely-there alliances, the strengh of the crown, essentially telling her the math doesn't work (again with more time I can come up with something more detailed but you guys get it), which would then push Rhaenyra to accept bastards to ride dragons. If you want to put them on screen I'll always watch these two work, but to basically have Alicent offer surrender seems odd, given the situation. 

And flip the last 30 minutes of both the last two episodes, now your season ends with that absolute bad ass shot of Rhaenyra, Syrax, Vermithor and Seasmoke, with Aemond in retreat. I bet everyone, including me, would have stood up and cheered that shit on. And for me the reconciliation of Rhaemon is a big enough event to feature it prominently in a penultimate episode, but a dude bending the knee is not the same electricity as "Who wants to meet a dragon? Everyone down to the dragonmont gantry!" Followed by the barbecue. Plus leaving off here, with Rhaenyra teetering on the edge of megalomania, is pretty intriguing. 

Sure, other adjustments to be made, but that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure someone well versed in the book / lore (#prosperina65) will point out something that breaks the timeline I'm proposing that I'm forgetting, but I havent rewatched it it. 

Edited August 6 by Uncle JUICE

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

The show screwed itself by insisting on keeping Alicent front and center.

That was indeed a huge mistake.  This war isn't between Rhaenyra and Alicent.  It's between Rhaenyra and Aegon/Aemond, and that's where the focus should've been this season.

22 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I'm sure someone well versed in the book / lore (@prosperina65) will point out something that breaks the timeline I'm proposing that I'm forgetting, but I havent rewatched it it. 

I'm not so versed in the lore that I have the timeline memorized, but thank you for granting a level of expertise.  🙂

I like a lot of your suggestions, although I would've kept Tyland's adventures in Essos and scrapped that imbecilic Rhaenyra/Alicent scene altogether.

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

That was indeed a huge mistake.  This war isn't between Rhaenyra and Alicent. 

Alicent was being written as nefarious Cersei one week, dimwit Sansa the next...

[proserpina65]

3 minutes ago, paigow said:

Alicent was being written as nefarious Cersei one week, dimwit Sansa the next...

Yep, her characterization has been all over the place this season.

[Uncle JUICE]

16 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

 

I like a lot of your suggestions, although I would've kept Tyland's adventures in Essos and scrapped that imbecilic Rhaenyra/Alicent scene altogether.

My problem with the Tyland scenes are strictly that they're all in the season finale. I basically forgot he even WENT to Essos (full disclozhe, I watch this show high as fuck so I miss stuff once in a while), and it felt really imbalanced to have four different scenes of this stuff. Especially given what they ended up showing. THe mud wrestling sequence was...in this episode. 

[proserpina65]

17 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

My problem with the Tyland scenes are strictly that they're all in the season finale. I basically forgot he even WENT to Essos (full disclozhe, I watch this show high as fuck so I miss stuff once in a while), and it felt really imbalanced to have four different scenes of this stuff. Especially given what they ended up showing. THe mud wrestling sequence was...in this episode. 

They definitely could've been moved to the previous episode and then just shown him and the admiral on the ship in the "going off to battle" montage for this one.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Are we supposed to think Alicent was being serious with her "I will open the gates for you" proposal because nothing actually shown so far that any such order coming from her or Helaena would have any chance of being obeyed, even if Aemond is not around? Why does Rhaenyra need anyone open the doors anyway - she has 6 dragons, if she shows up in force and there are zero dragons on the opposite side, you would think that the garrison would almost certainly surrender, Alicent or no Alicent.

Look, I generally really like plots of women exerting influence in misogynistic societies but there needs to be some plausibility, some internal consistency. You can't show several episodes of everyone who matters in King's Landing not giving a damn about what Alicent wants and then turn around and have her make a peace offer as if she has real authority to make commitments for anyone but herself. It's kind of like Tyrion running away from King's Landing and then deciding to make peace offerings on behalf of the Lannister clan.

The show doesn't want Alicent to be complicit in the atrocities of the Greens (even though she very much was in the final episodes of season 1 which the writers seem to have largely forgotten) but wants her to have enough authority to be taken seriously when she receives or makes peace proposals. Problem is that's basically wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

Edited August 6 by Jack Shaftoe

[sistermagpie]

15 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Are they having Rheana claim Sheepkiller? That's new, as well as Sunfyre being dead? Why would they tell Aegon his dragon is dead if he's not.

They specifically described him as being guarded because he was "long in dying" so seems like they're telling us he's not dead yet but they're assuming. It's like on a soap opera. If you die ina  plane crash with no body, you're going to come back during sweeps.

 

2 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

*I'm still annoyed we didn't get to see Addam's first ride on Seasmoke and Rhaena's claiming Sheepstealer isn't likely to be shown in S3. I am hoping it's just an unfortunate coincidence but it's not a good look for the two POC riders to not get their big dragon-claiming scenes while Ulf and Hugh got theirs. 

Wow, that would be terrible. Having her running a whole episode and ending with the cliffhanger of her facing the dragon seemed to set up a whole ep with her claiming him. If they skip to her just riding away it would be almost like the whole point of her character is to not have one. Ever.

2 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

All of my quibbles aside, I'll be here in 2026 because duh...dragons. Even if it's going to break my heart as it did the first time, when that bastard NK speared poor Viserion many times over. 

Waaaaah! That was so painful!

Edited August 6 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The acting between Alicent and Rhaenyra was excellent, but I'm not sure how I feel about Alicent being so wishy washy. She's been behind so much of this, she could have slowed things down a million times, especially in regards to her sons, but I would have honestly preferred if she just committed to her side at this point instead of sneaking around trying to throw her son under the bus. I can appreciate that she doesn't want this war to escalate, but things are already moving, its hard to shove all of this back into the box once its been opened. I feel like the show always wants to keep both Alicent and Rhaenyra sympathetic but it makes them less compelling and dynamic when they keep letting the men around them make all the big choices and keep having them go back and fourth on whether to press on or pull back. 

 

2 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

 

I really didn't need to see another scene of Rhaenyra and Alicent. All the sneaking around undetected beggars belief and I know TPTB are angling for me to feel sorry for Alicent but I don't. She set this whole thing in motion when she heard what she wanted to hear on Viserys' deathbed and moved as quickly as possible to crown Aegon, who didn't even want the damn thing. It's a bit late to unring the bell now as Rhaenyra so aptly pointed out. I feel sorry for Helaena and her young daughter as far as the Greens are concerned but that's where my sympathy ends. Aemond is just a monster and despite Tom Glynn Carney's sympathetic portrayal, I can never forget that Aegon II is a rapist who sent his bastards to the fighting pits.

I don't think Alicent set the whole thing to motion. Her misundestinding Viserys in his deathbed only made her conscience feel good, but Otto has made plans to make Aegon King with the majority of the Green Council. Yet, if Otto was right that the lords wouldn't accept a female ruler, his grandsons had been in danger, if not from Rhaenyra at least from Daemon. 

If anybody set the whole thing to motion it was Viserys who chose his daughter as his heir but didn't coach her to her role and remarried and had sons instead of giving his wife tea.

In addition, bot parties (Otto, Aegon, Aemond, Rhaenyra, Daemon, Gorlys) had acted very stupidly and can be blamed for the result. On the other hand, isn't it in their position natural that they are ambitious?  

[Uncle JUICE]

13 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Why does Rhaenyra need anyone open the doors anyway - she has 6 dragons, if she shows up in force and there are zero dragons on the opposite side, you would think that the garrison would almost certainly surrender, Alicent or no Alicent.

 

DING DING DING! This is why that scene was dumb to include. I wish Rhaenyra had responded along these lines, like "Listen, if you want to escape with your daughter, here's the deal. You're stuck here under lock and key until I secure the surrender of the Red Keep, after which I will execute your usurper son, Aemond, and your father once I find him. Helaena will then publicly renounce the claims to the throne through her remaining children, forever, and you and her can relocate to Essos. Your uncle will be stripped of Old Town, and with his brother, will be executed, as will all male heirs. If I ever hear the name Hightower on this side of the Narrow Sea again, I will spare no expense in finding you both and burning you to ash. I have six dragons, I don't knock on doors."

[Oscirus]

I get that Aemond was being a dick to Helena, and I won't excuse it. However the dude is under a lot of pressure; Rhaenyra now has two more dragons, the blockade is pissing off the commoners, and Daemon is raising an army, and he's waiting on his grandfather to arrive to help him, yet Gramps aint answering. He's pretty much all of Team Green's brain and muscle, which is a lot for any person to take on. 

 

With all that said, I don't see how team black loses this war, they legit have everything in their favor at this point. Especially since Alicent is about to give them King's Landing.

[AntFTW]

20 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Are we supposed to think Alicent was being serious with her "I will open the gates for you" proposal because nothing actually shown so far that any such order coming from her or Helaena would have any chance of being obeyed, even if Aemond is not around?

I think the evidence shows us that they, at least, follow a chain of command. I can buy that when Aemond is absent (and he has no Hand) that Helaena is the authority in King's Landing and therefore they would obey her commands.

3 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I get that Aemond was being a dick to Helena, and I won't excuse it. However the dude is under a lot of pressure; Rhaenyra now has two more dragons, the blockade is pissing off the commoners, and Daemon is raising an army, and he's waiting on his grandfather to arrive to help him, yet Gramps aint answering. He's pretty much all of Team Green's brain and muscle, which is a lot for any person to take on.

It wouldn't be his problem if he didn't roast his brother.

Edited August 6 by AntFTW

[Roseanna]

19 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Are we supposed to think Alicent was being serious with her "I will open the gates for you" proposal because nothing actually shown so far that any such order coming from her or Helaena would have any chance of being obeyed, even if Aemond is not around? Why does Rhaenyra need anyone open the doors anyway - she has 6 dragons, if she shows up in force and there are zero dragons on the opposite side, you would think that the garrison would almost certainly surrender, Alicent or no Alicent.

Look, I generally really like plots of women exerting influence in misogynistic societies but there needs to be some plausibility, some internal consistency. You can't show several episodes of everyone who matters in King's Landing not giving a damn about what Alicent wants and then turn around and have her make a peace offer as if she has real authority to make commitments for anyone but herself. It's kind of like Tyrion running away from King's Landing and then deciding to make peace offerings on behalf of the Lannister clan.

The show doesn't want Alicent to be complicit in the atrocities of the Greens (even though she very much was in the final episodes of season 1 which the writers seem to have largely forgotten) but wants her to have enough authority to be taken seriously when she receives or makes peace proposals. Problem is that's basically wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

In real history, a woman could have authority, but either she acted as a deputy for her husband (like Stephen's wife in the war against Mathilda) a regent (usual in France) or she had informal influence. And of course there were also abbesses and saints. 

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

It wouldn't be his problem if he didn't roast his brother.

 

Yea, it would; his brother is a moron, and even if they let his brother use Sunfyre, he's still down 7-2. If anything, the problem would likely be worse with his brother around doing stupid shit.

[AntFTW]

6 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Yea, it would; his brother is a moron

...and so is Aemond. Aemond is also a moron. He's a moron in a different way, but still a moron.

...but it wouldn't be his problem. He wouldn't be in charge. He put himself in the position to rule. He gave himself the pressure. He put himself in the position of being the sole dragonrider the Greens have for combat. Aemond decided to close the gates and leave the commoners more desperate in a city that being hammered with a blockade.

Edited August 6 by AntFTW

[Jack Shaftoe]

5 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

In real history, a woman could have authority, but either she acted as a deputy for her husband (like Stephen's wife in the war against Mathilda) a regent (usual in France) or she had informal influence. And of course there were also abbesses and saints. 

Of course women could and did have authority (which makes Rhaenyra's constant "What would have me do?" even more baffling), it's just that we have never seen Helaena exercise any authority and have had several episodes of everyone basically telling Alicent "I am sorry, do you work here?".

[Oscirus]

6 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

...and so is Aemond. Aemond is also a moron. He's a moron in a different way, but still a moron.

...but it wouldn't be his problem. He wouldn't be in charge. He put himself in the position to rule. He gave himself the pressure. He put himself in the position of being the sole dragonrider the Greens have for combat. Aemond decided to close the gates and leave the commoners more desperate in a city that being hammered with a blockade.

 

Still, it is his problem; Green losing means he's dead regardless of who's in charge. I concur. Your statement is accurate. He's made poor decisions. However, of the people left, he's unfortunately their best option. Maybe if his brother wasn't so hasty in firing Otto, that wouldn't be the case, but that's the current situation.

There is nothing he couldve done differently to solve the dragon problem

[Affogato]

The season ended where it did end because the mood and tenor of the show changes in many ways  i suspect they would want to film the war scenes in one go and not have to to stop and start. i imagine they also want the emotional  momentum.  It likely seemed like a natural cut off point. A lot of this season is having Rhaenerya gear up for what she has to do, which is why Daemon had to be away and Rhaena had to die and Corliss was disinvested. Meanwhile Daemon went through a similar journey.  Alicient, similarly isolated, also  so it makes sense that Rhaenerya touches in with both of them at the end about how they will, on reflection, play the game of thrones  

 

 

[aghst]

On 8/4/2024 at 7:26 PM, peridot said:

I didn't realize that Aegon's dragon was dead, I thought he was just injured.  Larys was right to get Aegon out of there, if Aemond was willing to hurt his sister.

Wow at Alicent giving up on Aegon.  She finally decided she's had enough, and it's too late.  I'm surprised that Criston is capable of being so insightful about the pointlessness of it.

Alyn's scene with Corlys was good.  I completely get his bitterness and resentment.

Daemon's vision made me sad about the lost potential of Game of Thrones.

I hate they decided to focus on the lost love between Alicent and Rhaenyra at the end.  They mostly just decided to tease the next season - Ulf's lack of respect and entitlement, the Triarchy, Rhaena's fate, etc.  I bet the next season won't come until 2026. 

 What a finale. 🙄

It seems like they're keeping Agon around, even though he himself thinks he's broken -- I'd be morose too if it burst like a sausage on a barbecue spit.

So if Agon is going to make a comeback, it seems to reason that he will have his dragon in some form.

Raynera says Sunfyre is dead.  She should make sure, go there with a couple of dragons and finish it if it's still alive.

 

Since Larys got Agon out of KL, Raynera may see it as a betrayal if she can't have Agon's head when she goes to KL to take over.

As far as Damon's vision, one look at the Night King and they all have a come to Jesus moment it seems.  Well they showed a pile of bodies of soldiers and even some slain dragons with the NK Army looking over the vanquished.

That's what Alys should have led with, instead of dropping all the previews in Damon's dreams.

 

I'm wondering if despite Ulf's insolence, he turns out to be a better dragon rider than Addam, Hugh or even Jace and Baela.  That is, he acts like an ass but he somehow backs it up, ends up being more than comic relief.

 

 

[AntFTW]

34 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Still, it is his problem; Green losing means he's dead regardless of who's in charge. I concur. Your statement is accurate. He's made poor decisions. However, of the people left, he's unfortunately their best option. Maybe if his brother wasn't so hasty in firing Otto, that wouldn't be the case, but that's the current situation.

There is nothing he couldve done differently to solve the dragon problem

If the Greens lose, more than Aemond will die and yet Aemond is the only one lashing out because of "pressure" that he gave to himself. When he wasn't the regent, he was pretty relaxed and relished in letting Aegon look stupid... but Aegon felt the pressure.

I think if he wasn't regent, he wouldn't have lashed out like we saw. I think he's only feeling the pressure because he has to be the one to make the decisions now... which, again, he created the circumstances for and pressure he created for himself.

[aghst]

9 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

If the Greens lose, more than Aemond will die and yet Aemond is the only one lashing out because of "pressure" that he gave to himself. When he wasn't the regent, he was pretty relaxed and relished in letting Aegon look stupid... but Aegon felt the pressure.

I think if he wasn't regent, he wouldn't have lashed out like we saw. I think he's only feeling the pressure because he has to be the one to make the decisions now... which, again, he created the circumstances for and pressure he created for himself.

Is that how the rules are, if you play the game of thrones and you lose, it's your head?

Because in season 1 it was Otto filling up Alicent's head with these notions, that if they don't make a claim for the throne, Raynera will have them killed just so they won't try again.

But Raynera goes to KL to try to avoid a war and she makes a show of strength to be a deterrent and give Team Green a chance to bend the knee but instead Amond burns a key castle.

Then in this episode, it's Alicent going to Dragonstone to plead for peace and Raynera said she has to have Agon's head, to provide an object lesson to any other usurpers.

So which is it, can Team Green back off and pledge loyalty to Raynera and avoid the war?

Or Raynera wants to avoid the war but Amond and Agon can't simply bend the knee and pledget complete loyalty to her, she has to have their heads.

Let's say Amond hadn't killed Luke but was just another Team Green soldier who has a change of heart and wanted peace.  Can he bend the knee or it's too late for all that?

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Are we supposed to think Alicent was being serious with her "I will open the gates for you" proposal because nothing actually shown so far that any such order coming from her or Helaena would have any chance of being obeyed, even if Aemond is not around? Why does Rhaenyra need anyone open the doors anyway - she has 6 dragons, if she shows up in force and there are zero dragons on the opposite side, you would think that the garrison would almost certainly surrender, Alicent or no Alicent.

Look, I generally really like plots of women exerting influence in misogynistic societies but there needs to be some plausibility, some internal consistency. You can't show several episodes of everyone who matters in King's Landing not giving a damn about what Alicent wants and then turn around and have her make a peace offer as if she has real authority to make commitments for anyone but herself. It's kind of like Tyrion running away from King's Landing and then deciding to make peace offerings on behalf of the Lannister clan.

The show doesn't want Alicent to be complicit in the atrocities of the Greens (even though she very much was in the final episodes of season 1 which the writers seem to have largely forgotten) but wants her to have enough authority to be taken seriously when she receives or makes peace proposals. Problem is that's basically wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

The notion would be to take KL with the minimum of bloodshed. Yes, a single dragon could probably take any fortification down and allow for an army to move into the walls. 

To bring up stuff from GOT, there is probably an equivalent of ringing the bells that could be done to signal surrender. Alicent probably has enough juice to accomplish that when Aemond is gone if, as she says, Aegon is willing to listen to her.

Of course, it could be that Alicent is just delusional about her ability to accomplish this peace. If she can get Aegon to listen to her and surrender -- as she plausibly might when Aemond isn't around to bully him -- her plan is not far-fetched. But Aegon might think anything from "I'm happy to bend the knee to Queen Rhae and even be killed than to leave Aemond-the-backstabber in power" to "No matter how bad things are for me now, I'd rather continue as Aegon's bitch than bend the knee to a fe-male."

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 minutes ago, aghst said:

Is that how the rules are, if you play the game of thrones and you lose, it's your head?

Because in season 1 it was Otto filling up Alicent's head with these notions, that if they don't make a claim for the throne, Raynera will have them killed just so they won't try again.

But Raynera goes to KL to try to avoid a war and she makes a show of strength to be a deterrent and give Team Green a chance to bend the knee but instead Amond burns a key castle.

Then in this episode, it's Alicent going to Dragonstone to plead for peace and Raynera said she has to have Agon's head, to provide an object lesson to any other usurpers.

So which is it, can Team Green back off and pledge loyalty to Raynera and avoid the war?

Or Raynera wants to avoid the war but Amond and Agon can't simply bend the knee and pledget complete loyalty to her, she has to have their heads.

Let's say Amond hadn't killed Luke but was just another Team Green soldier who has a change of heart and wanted peace.  Can he bend the knee or it's too late for all that?

The infamous quote from Cersei generally applies:  "When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die."

I think it's safe to say that Otto is probably correct and that for Rhae to win, the smart move would be to off her half-siblings, and vice versa. That said, Aegon offered Rhae terms that would let her continue on Dragonstone and keep her children inheriting everything but the monarchy that they might be entitled to. It's unclear if they meant those terms or if they just knew that Rhae would never accept them.

In this episode, Rhae clearly says Aegon must die, something Ali seems to accept. Whether Aemond and her other son must also die is unspoken, but one would think that they could bend the knee/join the Night's Watch. 

[AntFTW]

38 minutes ago, aghst said:

Is that how the rules are, if you play the game of thrones and you lose, it's your head?

Theoretically, yes.

38 minutes ago, aghst said:

But Raynera goes to KL to try to avoid a war and she makes a show of strength to be a deterrent and give Team Green a chance to bend the knee but instead Amond burns a key castle.

Then in this episode, it's Alicent going to Dragonstone to plead for peace and Raynera said she has to have Agon's head, to provide an object lesson to any other usurpers.

So which is it, can Team Green back off and pledge loyalty to Raynera and avoid the war?

Well... war is fluid. Situations and circumstances change, and decisionmaking changes with it.

The war has escalated to a point where someone has to die. If Rhaenyra or Aegon (and all of the Greens) bent the knee in the beginning, they probably could have kept their heads and avoided a war. Now, all the prominent Houses have chosen a side, and they've dedicated their fighting men to a side. At this point, there is no such thing as "avoiding the war." War has started. Dragons and armies have been deployed, more armies are on the march, and hundreds have died. Rhaenyra has lost a son. Aegon has lost a son.

Each side has an existential fear that they didn't have before and so they act accordingly. This has now gone from "I take the throne, you bend the knee" to "if the other side wins, I die."

Edited August 6 by AntFTW

[Affogato]

55 minutes ago, aghst said:

 

Raynera says Sunfyre is dead.  She should make sure, go there with a couple of dragons and finish it if it's still alive.

 

 

She really should. 

[AntFTW]

17 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think it's safe to say that Otto is probably correct and that for Rhae to win, the smart move would be to off her half-siblings, and vice versa. That said, Aegon offered Rhae terms that would let her continue on Dragonstone and keep her children inheriting everything but the monarchy that they might be entitled to. It's unclear if they meant those terms or if they just knew that Rhae would never accept them.

Honestly, I think it was a mix of both. I was trying to find the right words to describe those terms, but I think they were genuine terms. I think it was a "hope for the best, expect the worst" scenario. I think they expected her to decline, but hoped she wouldn't.

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Are we supposed to think Alicent was being serious with her "I will open the gates for you" proposal because nothing actually shown so far that any such order coming from her or Helaena would have any chance of being obeyed, even if Aemond is not around?

I'm not sure who would be in charge with Aemond, the king and the Hand of the King all away, so maybe Helaena, as the actual queen, might be obeyed.

2 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

DING DING DING! This is why that scene was dumb to include. I wish Rhaenyra had responded along these lines, like "Listen, if you want to escape with your daughter, here's the deal. You're stuck here under lock and key until I secure the surrender of the Red Keep, after which I will execute your usurper son, Aemond, and your father once I find him. Helaena will then publicly renounce the claims to the throne through her remaining children, forever, and you and her can relocate to Essos. Your uncle will be stripped of Old Town, and with his brother, will be executed, as will all male heirs. If I ever hear the name Hightower on this side of the Narrow Sea again, I will spare no expense in finding you both and burning you to ash. I have six dragons, I don't knock on doors."

To be fair, this is the same show which wanted us to believe that somehow Alicent could convince her son, the man she put on the throne, to step aside and renounce his claim just because Rhaenyra wanted her to do so.  These were both some pretty piss poorly written scenes with truly illogical motivations.

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

but it wouldn't be his problem. He wouldn't be in charge. He put himself in the position to rule.

It would be his problem because Aegon would make it his problem rather than trying to solve it himself.

57 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

If the Greens lose, more than Aemond will die and yet Aemond is the only one lashing out because of "pressure" that he gave to himself.

Because he's the only one who can do anything and that would still be the case if his idiot brother was in charge.

43 minutes ago, aghst said:

But Raynera goes to KL to try to avoid a war and she makes a show of strength to be a deterrent and give Team Green a chance to bend the knee

Which was one of the stupidest scenes in the whole show.  Her expecting that Alicent could get Aegon to bend the knee was idiocy.

And maybe Rhaenyra wouldn't have immediately had Alicent's children killed, but once they became the focus of inevitable rebellions by lords who did not want a woman on the throne, she'd have had no choice.  Because the mere existence of Aegon, Aemond and Daeron would be a threat to her reign.

42 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Alicent probably has enough juice to accomplish that when Aemond is gone if, as she says, Aegon is willing to listen to her.

Honestly, why would she still think Aegon would listen to her?  He hasn't since she put him on the throne.

 

[AntFTW]

2 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

It would be his problem because Aegon would make it his problem rather than trying to solve it himself.

Maybe. I think that's very plausible, but when Aegon was in charge, Aemond seemed to invite himself into the decisionmaking rather than Aegon making it Aemond's problem.

[proserpina65]

Just now, AntFTW said:

Maybe. I think that's very plausible, but when Aegon was in charge, Aemond seemed to invite himself into the decisionmaking rather than Aegon making it Aemond's problem.

Idk, the first time Aemond showed up at the small council meeting, it was because Aegon invited him, which implies that he was already relying on Aemond to do the dirty work, imo.  After all, he did think of his brother as his loyal dog.  But who really knows?  I'm just speculating at this point.

On a different note: does it make me a bad person if I hope the wild dragon in the Vale eats Rhaena so that I don't have to watch any more of her being a non-entity?

[NeenerNeener]

6 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

To the poster upthread who compared Addam to Milli Vanilli, I just have to say “Girl you know it’s true.”

It's nice to see that other people besides my brother (who doesn't post here) noticed that. I'll be sure to tell him.

[AntFTW]

11 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

On a different note: does it make me a bad person if I hope the wild dragon in the Vale eats Rhaena so that I don't have to watch any more of her being a non-entity?

I really didn't understand the point of this journey they have Rhaena on.

The mystery of whose sheep is this dragon stealing is a lot more interesting to me. Are the Arryns just leaving random flocks of sheep out there to roam for this dragon?

Edited August 6 by AntFTW

[proserpina65]

3 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I really didn't understand the point of this journey they have Rhaena on.

The mystery of whose sheep is this dragon stealing is a lot more interesting to me. Are the Arryns just leaving random flocks of sheep out there to roam for this dragon?

Maybe if she'd taken a couple of sheep to try and get the dragon's trust, it might make sense, but just wandering around without food or water?  Why?

[Affogato]

44 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Idk, the first time Aemond showed up at the small council meeting, it was because Aegon invited him, which implies that he was already relying on Aemond to do the dirty work, imo.  After all, he did think of his brother as his loyal dog.  But who really knows?  I'm just speculating at this point.

On a different note: does it make me a bad person if I hope the wild dragon in the Vale eats Rhaena so that I don't have to watch any more of her being a non-entity?

I thought he was genuinely trying to be inclusive and a good king. When dealing with Aemond, no good deed goes unpunished. 

[AntFTW]

18 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Poor Caraxs was so happy to see his friends. He was screaming guys I'm down here, get me out of here, this place sucks. Lol

Then he said "oh fuck, if they stay too long, I'm gonna have to share my pigs."

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

 

Honestly, why would she still think Aegon would listen to her?  He hasn't since she put him on the throne.

 

Aegon's had a lot of life-changing circumstances since he first ascended the throne.

He could originally think he was THE KING and thus everything would work out in his favor. The smallfolk would love him, the lords would follow his every command, he could hang out with his boys, just have an awesome time with his family and as many servant girls as he could rape.

Now he knows that his crazy-ass brother tried to murder him and may yet try to complete the job since doing so will leave him permanently in power, he really has no ability to command the court at the moment, his boys have been banished to the Wall, the attack left him crippled and unable to have sex, his heir has been murdered and he won't be able to have another, Rhae has a 7-1.75 dragon advantage and is likely to win, the smallfolk of King's Landing are starving and on the verge of revolting...

It's not the hardest/craziest pitch IMO to say "Time to cut your losses and concede." 

[baldryanr]

32 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's not the hardest/craziest pitch IMO to say "Time to cut your losses and concede." 

Aegon's not smart, but even he has to know conceding = beheading, burning, or some other mode execution.  He's permanently crippled (and likely in a lot of pain) so it's not inconceivable he's suicidal, but in that case he should just ask Grand Maester Orwyle for a quick and painless poison. 

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

The mystery of whose sheep is this dragon stealing is a lot more interesting to me. Are the Arryns just leaving random flocks of sheep out there to roam for this dragon?

They could be wild sheep.  The bigger question is why the Arryn guards apparently had no objection to the Queen's stepdaughter/daughter-in-law to be just running off to apparently Bear Grylls her way through the Vale.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

On a different note: does it make me a bad person if I hope the wild dragon in the Vale eats Rhaena so that I don't have to watch any more of her being a non-entity?

Seems like showing up with a dragon is the only way anyone will remember she exists. If the dragon ate her I can imagine her family in ten years going, "Wait, what happened to that other girl that used to be here?"

[Affogato]

Does Sheepstealer cough up a lot of wool balls?

[Lady S.]

On 8/5/2024 at 8:56 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

It was not 100 percent clear if Ali fully appreciated that there is no way Rhae would let Aegon live until she explicitly was told that, and more to the point whether.why she is OK with that. Maybe she sees it as OK to take 1-10 highborn lives over thousands of soldiers and tens of thousands of innocents. Maybe she values her life and Heleana's over the others, 

I think she believed both Aegon and Helaena were in danger under Aemond's rule and was weighing the hope of saving both of them against the chance of saving only Helaena. Aegon is bedridden and lacks much will to survive, so the idea of saving him/his throne must seem pretty futile. The meeting was pretty ludicrous but I thought it was clear her priority was saving Helaena, who she believed was not safe. It's like Helaena's choice in the premiere, giving up a son she believed to be already doomed in order to escape with her daughter, because it seemed the likely alternative was all of them dying together. When Helaena said she was happier before she was Queen, Alicent knew exactly how that felt. It's like she wants to make up for marrying Helaena to Aegon and making her Queen because it's too late to fix her mistakes with her sons. There is an irony I enjoy that on the team based on the principle of male heirs being better, both Queens have ultimately decided their daughters are not worth any less and will choose their only daughter over the male heir if both are in danger.

Updated character guide.

Edited August 7 by Lady S.