S02.E03: The Burning Mill

[proserpina65]

15 hours ago, Cool Breeze said:

I understand that dragons are the most feared and fearsome weapons in Westeros.  I do.  But aren't they just a little more than fighter jets?  I mean, they're cool and deadly but F-18s don't hold ground.  People on the ground hold ground.  The winning side will need troops, foot soldiers, in order to keep the defeated in line.  Dragons may soften the ground but armies will hold it.  So, shouldn't ultimate victory mostly turn on who has more troops?

The dragons breath fire.  They are more like fighter jets who can spew flames onto ground troops.  Soldiers who are burned to a crisp can't fight battles.  The drawback is that there are only so many dragons and they can't be everywhere, so if there is more than one battle taking place at a time, their usefulness is somewhat limited.

13 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Other than Aegon and Aemond, do the Greens have any other dragon riders?

They have Alicent's youngest son, Daeron, but he's not in King's Landing yet.  We've seen Helaena's dragon, Dreamfyre, spew fire in the Dragon Pit when Aemond was skulking about down there in season one, but I don't think it likely that Helaena would ever be riding her into battle.  So yes, the Greens are at a dragon disadvantage, which is why they're trying acquire more troops.

34 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

Personally, I could see Alicent deciding not to take Rhaenyra captive out of shame. She's not an idiot; she knows that she was wrong about what Viserys was saying on his deathbed, and she knows that to a degree the fallout is her fault, and that she's now consciously making the decision to defy the king's wishes for his succession. I can see the mental A-to-B that would let her feel like it would only be "fair" to let Rhaenyra go free from the Sept as a way to quiet her own guilt. I don't know that that would definitely be her reasoning, but it feels like it fits.

Idk, I think not taking the most logical step to circumvent the slaughter to come is pretty stupid on Alicent's part.  Honestly, while I loved the rest of the episode, that final scene, despite being well-written and well-acted, was utterly ridiculous and flew in the face of all the internal logic of the show.  But at least it means everyone's going to stop waffling and get on with the war. 

[scarynikki12]

37 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

let her feel like it would only be "fair" to let Rhaenyra go free from the Sept as a way to quiet her own guilt.

It also lets her continue with the facade of being a Good Person. “I showed Rhaenyra mercy by letting her return to Dragonstone unharmed so I’ve made up for pretending Viserys changed his mind about Aegon and I’m once again a Good Person! Everyone applaud!”

[Uncle JUICE]

46 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

It also lets her continue with the facade of being a Good Person. “I showed Rhaenyra mercy by letting her return to Dragonstone unharmed so I’ve made up for pretending Viserys changed his mind about Aegon and I’m once again a Good Person! Everyone applaud!”

I really like this idea about Alicent's self-perception here, that she's a good person, except one thing sticks out about it: she is actively hate fucking Cole, which is exactly what she got pissed off at Rhaenyra about (when she wore the green dress the first time). It's really interesting to think about this paradox, and how well Olivia Dunne is portraying it, this beleaguered and sidelined and impotent woman who wants to maintain one shred of what her younger self would consider decency. I can't get enough of Dunne's performance, I know everyone goes ape shit and rightfully so over Rhaenyra's performance because she's who the show wants you to root for, but Alicent is a DEEEEEEEEP study in psychology. 

 

Still, Alicent, aren't you a better person if you fall on your sword and just apprehend (and contribute to the certain and almost immediate execution of) Rhaenyra, and save thousands and thousands of small folk lives?

 

[Oscirus]

Alicent lets Rhae leave because she knows that capturing Rhae will be signing her death warrant. While she might not particularly like Rhae, she doesn't want her dead either.

[proserpina65]

14 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I really like this idea about Alicent's self-perception here, that she's a good person, except one thing sticks out about it: she is actively hate fucking Cole, which is exactly what she got pissed off at Rhaenyra about (when she wore the green dress the first time). It's really interesting to think about this paradox, and how well Olivia Dunne is portraying it, this beleaguered and sidelined and impotent woman who wants to maintain one shred of what her younger self would consider decency. I can't get enough of Dunne's performance, I know everyone goes ape shit and rightfully so over Rhaenyra's performance because she's who the show wants you to root for, but Alicent is a DEEEEEEEEP study in psychology. 

 

Still, Alicent, aren't you a better person if you fall on your sword and just apprehend (and contribute to the certain and almost immediate execution of) Rhaenyra, and save thousands and thousands of small folk lives?

 

Olivia Cooke.  Olivia Dunne is a gymnast.  Although there have been times when Alicent's twisted herself into knots, so . . .

7 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Alicent lets Rhae leave because she knows that capturing Rhae will be signing her death warrant. While she might not particularly like Rhae, she doesn't want her dead either.

Which is why Alicent is a bit of the fool Aemond accused her of being.  Because letting Rhaenyra go will result in exponentially more deaths.

[paigow]

The best diss to Aegon would be for Daemon- knowing that Criston is the new Hand- to kidnap Otto ... In fact, Otto might be planning his own fake kidnapping...

8 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Although there have been times when Alicent's twisted herself into knots

foot

[Oscirus]

14 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Which is why Alicent is a bit of the fool Aemond accused her of being.  Because letting Rhaenyra go will result in exponentially more deaths.

 

Will it at this point? Whether they fight for Jace or Rhae, they're still going to war, and a Jace who just lost his mother and brother is a lot more likely to be more brutal than his peace-seeking mother who will at least attempt to keep the war hawks at bay.

[proserpina65]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Will it at this point? Whether they fight for Jace or Rhae, they're still going to war, and a Jace who just lost his mother and brother is a lot more likely to be more brutal than his peace-seeking mother who will at least attempt to keep the war hawks at bay.

Yes, it would, imo, because some (if not most) of the houses who are currently supporting Rhaenyra are unlikely to support a Strong bastard or two kids who are barely out of diapers.  And without that support, the war gets shorter at least.  Just my opinion, of course.

[go4luca]

3 hours ago, baldryanr said:

If peace at all costs is her goal then the solution is simple - give up her claim and move to Essos.  Same for the Greens - if they truly want peace then surrender now before anyone else dies. 

Sorry.  Disagree.  And that's okay.

[proserpina65]

1 minute ago, go4luca said:

Sorry.  Disagree.  And that's okay.

One or the other side giving up the claim to the throne is the only way at this point to avoid war.  Either Rhaenyra acknowledges Aegon's claim and bends the knee or Aegon bends the knee to her.  Neither is willing to do that.  So Rhaenyra's attempt to negotiate with Alicent without actually offering anything was a failure before it even started.

[paigow]

This guy believes in peace at any cost...

 

[Uncle JUICE]

21 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Yes, it would, imo, because some (if not most) of the houses who are currently supporting Rhaenyra are unlikely to support a Strong bastard or two kids who are barely out of diapers.  And without that support, the war gets shorter at least.  Just my opinion, of course.

It's exactly this: there would STILL be succession questions if Rhaenyra were dead, and the propaganda machine would work overtime on "These ain't Targaryens" messaging. Erosion of the supporting houses would be fatal to the cause. They would all have to take the black to survive.

[iMonrey]

On 7/2/2024 at 10:23 AM, Jack Shaftoe said:

Just be honest and say your faction took the throne because most Westeros nobles didn't want, gasp, a woman, on the throne and said woman didn't lift a finger to prevent that extremely obvious plot from happening.

How could she have prevented it? She was on Dragonstone and didn't even know her father died until Rhaenys came and told her and then it was too late. I doubt she could have done anything even if she'd stayed in Kings Landing, they probably would have had her and her children killed.

22 hours ago, KBrownie said:

Wasn’t that Aemond chasing down another dragon who was doing nothing but trying to run away and not engage until it felt threatened and defended it self once?  What was the fight?  It’s not like Vhagar was in a back and forth with Arrax. 

My point is that both Luke and Aemond lost control of their dragons. And Aermond knows this. But I tend to agree with posts above suggesting he's in denial of this.

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Finally, it seems a lot to ask for the Scorpion operators to be fearless knowing they are going to be the first targets for dragons. It's one thing to be bold in the abstract, but face to face with one, there are few who would not need the brown pants.

Yeah, this could be more bad writing or lazy CGI, but when Drogon was mowing down entire rows of Scorpions they were all abandoned. It seems likely once a few of the operators are roasted the rest of them would flee.

RE: The Scorpions - I was surprised to see one, as I had assumed they were built specifically for Daenerys during the GoT times. I'm not sure why they would have any prior to the usurpation of the throne dividing the family into factions. When everyone was on the same team, who wanted to shoot down dragons? Maybe enemies in far-off lands but no one in the Red Keep. And they couldn't have built the thing in just a couple of days.

[proserpina65]

19 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

RE: The Scorpions - I was surprised to see one, as I had assumed they were built specifically for Daenerys during the GoT times. I'm not sure why they would have any prior to the usurpation of the throne dividing the family into factions. When everyone was on the same team, who wanted to shoot down dragons? Maybe enemies in far-off lands but no one in the Red Keep. And they couldn't have built the thing in just a couple of days.

This isn't the first time different members of the Targaryen family came into conflict.  But this might not be common knowledge so I'll put it in spoiler mode

Spoiler

Aegon the Conqueror's son with his sister Visenya, Maegor, usurped the throne from his half-brother's son, nearly 90 years before HOTD starts.  Not sure if dragons fought each other at the time, but everyone had to be aware of the possibility.  So the knowledge of scorpions was likely around.  And Aegon is obviously having more built as quickly as possible now.

 

Edited July 3 by proserpina65

[paigow]

Even Middle Earth had Scorpion adjacent weapons to deal with Smaug - so any Maester could have checked the forbidden texts for DIY Scorpion hacks...

[Uncle JUICE]

8 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

This isn't the first time different members of the Targaryen family came into conflict.  But this might not be common knowledge so I'll put it in spoiler mode

  Hide contents

Aegon the Conqueror's son with his sister Visenya, Maegor, usurped the throne from his half-brother's son, nearly 90 years before HOTD starts.  Not sure if dragons fought each other at the time, but everyone had to be aware of the possibility.  So the knowledge of scorpions was likely around.  And Aegon is obviously having more built as quickly as possible now.

 

I'll add, which I'm sure everyone knows already...

Spoiler

The Dornish felled a dragon during the conquest (I think they killed one of Aegon I's sister wives in doing so, but I don't want to look it up) using a Scorpion, but their terrain, craggy mountains and such, concealed the weapon until it had already fired. So their efficacy was demonstrated, but I contend that if a scorpion is out in the open, it's pointless against a flying dragon with a rider. It's stupid easy to avoid if it's firing at a single moving FLYING target that can change positions on all three axes (unlike a boat, for example, that only goes forward, backward, or side to side, and none of those with sharp turns). It's better against target rich environments, sure, but remember too that firing at a target in the sky sucks the power out of the bolt pretty quickly; airborne projectiles move slowest at the tops of their arcs, and pick up speed on the way back down. 

Fuck Scorpions, long live Rhaegal. 

 

[proserpina65]

16 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I'll add, which I'm sure everyone knows already...

  Reveal spoiler

Spoiler

You are correct.  It was Aegon's sister-wife Rhaenys, on Meraxes.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I am not sure this tracks here. She's not consciously making the decision to deft the king's wishes for succession, as much as she's protecting the lives of her children and grand children (one of which, at least, Rhaenyra is responsible for killing in his bed). There's no way to protect her children if Rhaenyra is alive, right? There simply isn't a solution where everyone lives happily ever after. Perhaps Alicent wouldn't be able to see that past her former friendship with Rhaenyra AND her guilt about her own hypocrisy over why it's started, but that's all sunken cost now. Letting her leave is almost sure to cost her more in the end when the war forces one or more of her children into danger. 

ETA: I wish that scene would have featured Alicent ending it by saying "If you truly want a bloodless war, Rhaenyre, surrender to me, now, right here. I swear before these gods in this holy place that I will not let harm come to you or your children." THen what happens?

It would be feasible that one strand of the Targaryens bends the knee to the other, and then through some level of intermarriage-plural marriage unites so tha the "winning" team does not have not have to worry about the "losing" team planning a coup or causing trouble in the future.

But pride is not going to let either Rhae or Aegon do that. 

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Alicent lets Rhae leave because she knows that capturing Rhae will be signing her death warrant. While she might not particularly like Rhae, she doesn't want her dead either.

Even assuming for argument's sake that capturing Rhae means killing Rhae (and I'm not convinced that keeping her as an indefinite prisoner even if she refuses to bend the knee would not be a possibility), it's pretty obviously a better outcome from Ali's perspective than the likely deaths of thousands on both sides as well as the possible death of her and hers that may happen if Rhae gets released. Yes, there's certainly a possibility that Daemon or Jace or others would rise up and claim the right to the throne for Team Black, but their claims are much much weaker than Rhae's -- Jace is an obvious bastard, and Daemon be crazy and people know that Viserys didn't want him in the line of succession, which traditionally goes to first to sons of the King, then if none to brothers.

It's fair that Ali is possibly sentimental about their childhood bond and that caused her to not to act, but Otto will be very disappointed if he finds out that she's that soft.

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

How could she have prevented it? She was on Dragonstone and didn't even know her father died until Rhaenys came and told her and then it was too late. I doubt she could have done anything even if she'd stayed in Kings Landing, they probably would have had her and her children killed.

My point is that both Luke and Aemond lost control of their dragons. And Aermond knows this. But I tend to agree with posts above suggesting he's in denial of this.

Yeah, this could be more bad writing or lazy CGI, but when Drogon was mowing down entire rows of Scorpions they were all abandoned. It seems likely once a few of the operators are roasted the rest of them would flee.

RE: The Scorpions - I was surprised to see one, as I had assumed they were built specifically for Daenerys during the GoT times. I'm not sure why they would have any prior to the usurpation of the throne dividing the family into factions. When everyone was on the same team, who wanted to shoot down dragons? Maybe enemies in far-off lands but no one in the Red Keep. And they couldn't have built the thing in just a couple of days.

It's not as though Team Black did not know that the Hightowers were a bunch of scheming schemers. Team Black made the decision to hang out at Dragonstone over the course of years and having very little to do with court life. They were overconfident that everyone would bend the knee to Rhae when the time came even when they should have factored in that Westeros was sexist-AF and that there would be a bunch who would never follow a Queen as more than a figurehead. So there's a bunch of ongoing neglect by Team Black that let Team Green get the upper hand.

But putting aside Team Black's ongoing failure to prepare properly for succession, they didn't have to flounce off to Dragonstone there at the very end. When it was apparent how bad shape Viserys was in and suspected that Team Green was behind it, there possibly were other things they could have done at the end. Of course, as you say, they could have backfired too. But they certainly allowed for Team Green to purge KL of anyone who would oppose them without a fight. I don't think it would have been so easy if Rhae had remained.

IIRC, one of the GOT maesters found an ancient blueprint for the scorpions in an old book, so they didn't get the idea out of the blue. Presumably, it was in part from the events we're seeing in HOD.

Edited July 3 by Chicago Redshirt

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

How could she have prevented it? She was on Dragonstone and didn't even know her father died until Rhaenys came and told her and then it was too late. I doubt she could have done anything even if she'd stayed in Kings Landing, they probably would have had her and her children killed.

There was more than a decade in which anyone with a clue knew exactly what was going to happen once Viserys died. Rhaenyra didn't build up her faction or do anything at all to prevent Aegon from being crowned, hell, she didn't even have any spies in the capital, so she was blind-sided and now has to rely on some rando spymaster of dubious loyalty that her husband came very close to executing.

[paigow]

 

5 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

The dragons breath fire.  They are more like fighter jets who can spew flames onto ground troops. 

 

[ChicksDigScars]

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

It's exactly this: there would STILL be succession questions if Rhaenyra were dead, and the propaganda machine would work overtime on "These ain't Targaryens" messaging. Erosion of the supporting houses would be fatal to the cause. They would all have to take the black to survive.

Except Jace and Joff (and Luke, RIP) are just as much Targaryen blood as Alicent's children. Both sets are 50% Targ, and 50% either Hightower or Strong biologically, or Hightower and Velaryon (wink, wink) officially. If they were actual Velaryon's, they'd have even more Targ blood than Alicent's meal tickets. It would be a battle of public relations. Who's messaging is more convincing. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

50 minutes ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Except Jace and Joff (and Luke, RIP) are just as much Targaryen blood as Alicent's children. Both sets are 50% Targ, and 50% either Hightower or Strong biologically, or Hightower and Velaryon (wink, wink) officially. If they were actual Velaryon's, they'd have even more Targ blood than Alicent's meal tickets. It would be a battle of public relations. Who's messaging is more convincing. 

The strongest plus for Rhae's claim is that Viserys had publicly announced her to be his heir.

The strongest plus for Aegon's claim is that the holier-than-thou Alicent said Viserys had a deathbed conversion and then named Aegon to be his heir, plus Aegon has a pee-pee.

It doesn't matter that both Jace/Joff and Aegon/Aemond are 50 percent Targaryen when in Jace/Joff's case, they are also 100 percent bastard. But putting that to the side, I don't think Jace/Joff have a better claim than Aegon/Aemond.

Someone with more genealogy/real-world royal or GOT line of succession expertise can correct me, but I believe the line of succession would go first to:

1. Children of King Viserys from oldest to youngest 

2. Grandchildren of the king from oldest to youngest 

3. Siblings of the king, from oldest to youngest

Rhae and Aegon are both children of Viserys and if Westeros was not sexist-AF, then the decision would be easy: Rhae would be first in line and then her children would be next in line, pushing claims Aegon and Aemond (and their children) pretty far down the line.

But because Westeros IS sexist-AF, not only is there a question of if Rhae could inherit Viserys's rule, there is also the question of whether descendants of Rhae could be next in line under normal circumstances. For the many who would see Rhae as illegitimate, her descendants would also have a weaker claim than Aegon. And for even some who might see Rhae as having a viable claim due to Viserys' direct naming of her as his heir, it's unclear if they might think that the son of Rhae has a superior claim than a son of Viserys.

 

 

Edited July 3 by Chicago Redshirt

[go4luca]

On 7/3/2024 at 8:32 AM, proserpina65 said:

So Rhaenyra's attempt to negotiate with Alicent without actually offering anything was a failure before it even started.

Except possibly seeing more offspring / family needlessly killed. Or dragons.

I grasp we all have our take on how we see things, I'm fine with that.  This is mine.

Edited July 4 by go4luca

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The strongest plus for Rhae's claim is that Viserys had publicly announced her to be his heir.

The strongest plus for Aegon's claim is that the holier-than-thou Alicent said Viserys had a deathbed conversion and then named Aegon to be his heir, plus Aegon has a pee-pee.

It doesn't matter that both Jace/Joff and Aegon/Aemond are 50 percent Targaryen when in Jace/Joff's case, they are also 100 percent bastard. But putting that to the side, I don't think Jace/Joff have a better claim than Aegon/Aemond.

Someone with more genealogy/real-world royal or GOT line of succession expertise can correct me, but I believe the line of succession would go first to:

1. Children of King Viserys from oldest to youngest 

2. Grandchildren of the king from oldest to youngest 

3. Siblings of the king, from oldest to youngest

 

 

 

Nope, it goes king's heir (usually firstborn son>>>heir's children and grandchildren>>>king's spare>>>spare's children and so on and so forth. Even if the king's heir died before being crowned, the heir's heir is still next in line. That's why Vaemond Velaryon had to try to use the bastardy of Luke against him, because even with Laenor dead, his son was still the next heir. In modern terms, if Prince William dropped dead somehow soon, his children would still come before Prince Harry and his kids. That's why Rhaenys is the Queen Who Never Was, because even with her father, the firstborn son dead, she (and her son) still had a royal birthright. I found it kind of ironic that she had to use her grandfather's legacy to defend Rhaenyra when that guy summoned the entire aristocracy to council just to create a legal precedent to disinherit her and Laenor in favor of Viserys. (I've thought a lot about that Great Council which started all this by putting failed king Viserys on the throne and I do think that was its real purpose, more than any doubt by king or general public about choosing a male or female heir. Corlys very clearly imo believed he had married an heiress or at least that their son would be king, and there's no suggestion that he was being singularly delusional about that. So the Great Council served to stop the Velaryons and her Baratheon kin from fighting for the throne by showing how outnumbered they'd be and saying that this new legal decison was against them.)

While I do think Rhaenyra set up the potential for another succession crisis by doing exactly what her father did in remarrying and having more Valyrian-haired sons--even with how much more functional her blended family seems, Jace can only be so close to a half-brother 10+yrs younger and Aegon II is proof that a prince can be somewhat forced by the right people into usurping his sibling--but I do find it very noteworthy that when Jace and Luke went out as envoys nobody cared about their obvious illegitimacy. People far from King's Landing may not know about Harwin specifically, but the hair really is a dead giveaway. Yet even the Lord Baratheon who rejected Luke only did so because Rhaenyra's elder sons weren't free to marry a Baratheon daughter as Aemond was. The people supporting Rhaenyra from the Starks and Arryns and Blackwoods to those lesser lords on her council must be aware of who her heir is and are implicitly supporting his claim as well, so I think a good number would still support him without her, especially those he'd met with personally, the oathkeeping Cregan Stark and his maternal cousin Lady Arryn. My thinking is that any opposition to Jace as king would be those who disagreed with his policies using his bastardy as a pretext and his half-brothers as natural opposition figureheads. Maybe some of the Team Black houses would be more cautious about their chances in success in supporting a bastard against trueborn Valyrian-haired princes, but they are already taking the risk of supporting a female heir with multiple brothers (when a regular heiress usually would not have any), and she's a Queen who's already a known adulterer, a suspected husband-killer, and now an alleged babykiller at that. 

[Oscirus]

Upon rewatching, some things struck me.

Damon's preference for the title 'your grace' over 'my prince' is a significant detail that sheds light on his true motives.

If not for Larys, we would've had our first dragon battle, and given that we rarely have seen Aegon fight, I think Baela could've taken Aegon. 

Rhaenyra and Rhaenys insistence upon peace was silly. This'll probably be the only time I'll say this, but Alicent was right. What were their expectations? That she'd convince Alicent to stand down, Aemond would take the black, and both factions would serve happily under Rhaenyra? I get they want to avoid war, but at some point, you gotta be realistic.

Finally, the Targaryans need to stop talking about the prince that was promised. This myth has caused a large civil war, it sparked another war that led to the end of their rule on the throne, and the prince wouldn't have been necessary if these idjits weren't so obsessed with the myth.

 

 

[Lady S.]

On 7/1/2024 at 4:36 PM, Haleth said:

Was the guy claiming to be a Targ bastard the same guy we saw last week with the sick kid and expensive groceries?  The same guy that petitioned the king for ~something~ the week before?

Close, it was the guy at the end of the ep who stole some food from a basket on somebody's back and then asked about the hanged ratcatchers.

 

On 7/1/2024 at 9:51 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

Corlys, as cool as he is, is as deeply in the misogyny soup as the other men.  I can see him making his bastard sons legitimate before making Rhaena the rightful heir to Driftmark.  For all of his "she don't know nothing 'bout ships OR dragons" talk, did he bother to teach his granddaughters anything about Driftmark? 

 

Yeah, I thought it was very telling that he mentioned knowing nothing of ships or dragons when the Lord of Driftmark has never been a drognrider before. He not only wants a male heir despite all his talk of caring about his wife's birthright even more than she did (I think he would have been happy enough if the throne just passed over her to Laenor as happened several times in the real world with female-line male heirs), he wants to create his own dragonriding dynasty as a royal cadet branch, which would be the expectation with Laenor and his sons dragonriders. Guess he's a bit jealous about being an old Valyrian house but never a Valyrian dragonlord family. His only problem with Joffrey is he just doesn't know the kid, having been only a baby when Laenor left and Corlys returned to war, there's not the same attachment as he developed with Luke.

While we're speculating about possible bastards of Corlys, I wonder if Alyn, the guy who saved his life, has to shave his head to hide his paternity if, unlike his brother, he did get the Valyrian hair color.

On 7/1/2024 at 4:41 PM, magdalene said:

Did they really have to show that poor girl Aegon raped now further abused in the tavern? That's just piling on.

I'm assuming she'll come into the story at some point later and wasn't just brought back for that one quick scene. I didn't even recognize her until a youtube video pointed her out. I do remember there were rumors she'd be brought back to somehow be involved in Blood and Cheese, rumors which I'm glad were false, but they could find some other way to have her take action against Aegon.

 

On 7/1/2024 at 4:38 PM, CeeBeeGee said:

I'm a little surprised in the "Previously..." montage they didn't include the little Bracken lord who went full ham on Lord Blackwood at court in front of Rhaenyra.

It was actually a Blackwood kid who killed the Bracken bullying him. I too didn't understand why they didn't remind us of that.

 

On 7/1/2024 at 7:51 PM, iMonrey said:

The actor how plays Gwayne also played King Hugo on The Great. I knew I recognized him from somewhere.

He's apparently from something of an acting dynasty, so it's fitting that he keeps playing entitled bluebloods. I do confess to liking the guy for being salty towards Criston as Hand even if he does seem a bit classist (and likely racist with his remark about Criston being Dornish). Maybe it'll be good for Alicent to have a man she can trust besides Larys and Criston.

ETA: Updated character guide

Edited July 4 by Lady S.

[goldilocks]

On 7/1/2024 at 3:26 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Name the next one something wild like Chandler or Trixie!

Trixie! 😂 Reminds me of the time we got a spam phone call, with a thick Indian accent “Hello, this is “Bob” from Mumbai…” 

[paigow]

Tyrion gave Joffrey a book that mentioned former king Aegon The Unworthy. 

History indicates Team Green victory....

[Jack Shaftoe]

Come to think it, shouldn't the prince consort be called "your grace" even if he is content to meekly obey his wife? Cersei is called "your grace" in the books even though she isn't a queen regnant.

[baldryanr]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Tyrion gave Joffrey a book that mentioned former king Aegon The Unworthy. 

History indicates Team Green victory....

I'll avoid being too specific, but Joffrey explicitly says what happens to one of the claimants when he's showing Margery around. 

31 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Come to think it, shouldn't the prince consort be called "your grace" even if he is content to meekly obey his wife? Cersei is called "your grace" in the books even though she isn't a queen regnant.

It's possible that in this world you only get called your grace if you have the title of king or queen, even if you are the queen consort and/or dowager queen.  Prince consort is still just a prince.

[Oscirus]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

Tyrion gave Joffrey a book that mentioned former king Aegon The Unworthy. 

History indicates Team Green victory....

 

Different Aegon. Apparently, Targs really love that name. That being said, the Aegon of that book is a whole series by himself.

[iMonrey]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

Tyrion gave Joffrey a book that mentioned former king Aegon The Unworthy. 

History indicates Team Green victory....

Team Green is currently victorious, with Aegon officially crowned and on the Iron Throne. That doesn't mean they will ultimately win this war. Whatever happens to Aegon (and I have no foreknowledge of that) I assume he will remain in the history books as a former king. 

[ChicksDigScars]

And if there ever was a man who fit the name of Aegon the Unworthy, the current rapey drunken dimwit certainly applies. 

[paigow]

8 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

And if there ever was a man who fit the name of Aegon the Unworthy, the current rapey drunken dimwit certainly applies. 

Bizarrely, current Aegon was deemed NOT unworthy enough by royal biographers... as Oscirus described... 

[proserpina65]

On 7/3/2024 at 3:04 PM, ChicksDigScars said:

Except Jace and Joff (and Luke, RIP) are just as much Targaryen blood as Alicent's children. Both sets are 50% Targ, and 50% either Hightower or Strong biologically, or Hightower and Velaryon (wink, wink) officially. If they were actual Velaryon's, they'd have even more Targ blood than Alicent's meal tickets. It would be a battle of public relations. Who's messaging is more convincing. 

Those houses who wouldn't support a woman on the throne wouldn't throw their support behind someone they see as a bastard over the previous king's legitimate son.  And so far, Team Green's messaging has been much more convincing because no one truly believes that Rhaenyra's eldest children are actually Velaryons.

On 7/3/2024 at 6:47 PM, Lady S. said:

Nope, it goes king's heir (usually firstborn son>>>heir's children and grandchildren>>>king's spare>>>spare's children and so on and so forth. Even if the king's heir died before being crowned, the heir's heir is still next in line. That's why Vaemond Velaryon had to try to use the bastardy of Luke against him, because even with Laenor dead, his son was still the next heir. In modern terms, if Prince William dropped dead somehow soon, his children would still come before Prince Harry and his kids. That's why Rhaenys is the Queen Who Never Was, because even with her father, the firstborn son dead, she (and her son) still had a royal birthright. I found it kind of ironic that she had to use her grandfather's legacy to defend Rhaenyra when that guy summoned the entire aristocracy to council just to create a legal precedent to disinherit her and Laenor in favor of Viserys. (I've thought a lot about that Great Council which started all this by putting failed king Viserys on the throne and I do think that was its real purpose, more than any doubt by king or general public about choosing a male or female heir. Corlys very clearly imo believed he had married an heiress or at least that their son would be king, and there's no suggestion that he was being singularly delusional about that. So the Great Council served to stop the Velaryons and her Baratheon kin from fighting for the throne by showing how outnumbered they'd be and saying that this new legal decison was against them.)

While I do think Rhaenyra set up the potential for another succession crisis by doing exactly what her father did in remarrying and having more Valyrian-haired sons--even with how much more functional her blended family seems, Jace can only be so close to a half-brother 10+yrs younger and Aegon II is proof that a prince can be somewhat forced by the right people into usurping his sibling--but I do find it very noteworthy that when Jace and Luke went out as envoys nobody cared about their obvious illegitimacy. People far from King's Landing may not know about Harwin specifically, but the hair really is a dead giveaway. Yet even the Lord Baratheon who rejected Luke only did so because Rhaenyra's elder sons weren't free to marry a Baratheon daughter as Aemond was. The people supporting Rhaenyra from the Starks and Arryns and Blackwoods to those lesser lords on her council must be aware of who her heir is and are implicitly supporting his claim as well, so I think a good number would still support him without her, especially those he'd met with personally, the oathkeeping Cregan Stark and his maternal cousin Lady Arryn. My thinking is that any opposition to Jace as king would be those who disagreed with his policies using his bastardy as a pretext and his half-brothers as natural opposition figureheads. Maybe some of the Team Black houses would be more cautious about their chances in success in supporting a bastard against trueborn Valyrian-haired princes, but they are already taking the risk of supporting a female heir with multiple brothers (when a regular heiress usually would not have any), and she's a Queen who's already a known adulterer, a suspected husband-killer, and now an alleged babykiller at that. 

Succession in Westeros is based by male-preference primogeniture, the idea that the throne passes through the line of the king's sons.  Viserys broke generations of tradition by naming a daughter heir.  Yes, he didn't have much choice given that the only other option was Daemon.  But a large portion of Westeros was never going to accept Rhaenyra as queen once Viserys had sons, and those same houses wouldn't view her sons as the next in line because they never considered her the rightful heir over her half-brothers.  The fact that Jace and Joffrey are bastards is a further blow to any claims they might have had.

On 7/3/2024 at 7:31 PM, Oscirus said:

If not for Larys, we would've had our first dragon battle, and given that we rarely have seen Aegon fight, I think Baela could've taken Aegon. 

Maybe, although we haven't seen him on Sunfyre so we don't know what sort of flying experience he has.  Plus, Sunfyre is older and bigger, which would be some advantage in a fight.  It probably would be a very well-matched fight.

On 7/3/2024 at 7:31 PM, Oscirus said:

Rhaenyra and Rhaenys insistence upon peace was silly. This'll probably be the only time I'll say this, but Alicent was right. What were their expectations? That she'd convince Alicent to stand down, Aemond would take the black, and both factions would serve happily under Rhaenyra? I get they want to avoid war, but at some point, you gotta be realistic.

The only way this plan could've resulted in peace was is Rhaenyra went to King's Landing and bent the knee to Aegon, and even then, there still would be Daemon to deal with.

11 hours ago, paigow said:

Bizarrely, current Aegon was deemed NOT unworthy enough by royal biographers... as Oscirus described... 

Because drunken rapist is not considered a disqualification for kings according to royal biographers.

 

 

[DigitalCount]

On 7/3/2024 at 7:36 PM, Lady S. said:

He's apparently from something of an acting dynasty, so it's fitting that he keeps playing entitled bluebloods. I do confess to liking the guy for being salty towards Criston as Hand even if he does seem a bit classist (and likely racist with his remark about Criston being Dornish). Maybe it'll be good for Alicent to have a man she can trust besides Larys and Criston.

ETA: Updated character guide

Okay, so I wasn't the only one who felt a bit of a microaggression there? Definitely seemed at least kind of suspect. The classism was more on display (before Baela showed up Gwayne was obviously trying to undermine his position), but it seemed unnecessary to bring up Criston's heritage in that "offhand" manner--unless he had an issue with it.

Criston is undoubtedly scum, but I had to smile when he was shown to be right about taking their concealment seriously. Otto last week, Criston this week...it seems like the Greens tend to be better at administration, whereas the Blacks are being portrayed as being more morally sound. If they could have worked together, what could they have accomplished?

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 7/3/2024 at 5:47 PM, Lady S. said:

Nope, it goes king's heir (usually firstborn son>>>heir's children and grandchildren>>>king's spare>>>spare's children and so on and so forth. Even if the king's heir died before being crowned, the heir's heir is still next in line.

So in this particular situation when there is doubt about who the King actually named heir, is there a precedent for how to settle that legally or in any other way than force?

If Rhae were to die while the line of succession is still contested, my thought is that even among some/most who have supported her claim to the throne, they would have pause about handing the throne to obvious bastards. Would it descend to the children of Rhae and Daemon in their eyes? Or would they accept that Aegon's claim as the son of Viserys is superior to the claim of a purported grandson of Viserys when the parent never actually sat the throne?

And wouldn't the fact of male-preference primogeniture possibly prevent the normal succession dynamics anyway?

Edited July 5 by Chicago Redshirt

[proserpina65]

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

So in this particular situation when there is doubt about who the King actually named heir, is there a precedent for how to settle that legally or in any other way than force?

If Rhae were to die while the line of succession is still contested, my thought is that even among some/most who have supported her claim to the throne, they would have pause about handing the throne to obvious bastards. Would it descend to the children of Rhae and Daemon in their eyes? Or would they accept that Aegon's claim as the son of Viserys is superior to the claim of a purported grandson of Viserys when the parent never actually sat the throne?

Given that Viserys had living adult/almost adult sons before he died, one of whom has actually been crowned king, makes me think that he be considered rightful king after Rhaenyra's death, even by some of the houses currently supporting her.  Because Westeros is a patriarchal society at heart where going through the line of a daughter when there are sons is unlikely.

[baldryanr]

38 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

So in this particular situation when there is doubt about who the King actually named heir, is there a precedent for how to settle that legally or in any other way than force?

If there's doubt about who should rule then you can do what Jaehaerys I did - have a Great Council and leave the decision to them.  

[rlc]

On 7/1/2024 at 3:26 AM, thuganomics85 said:

To be fair, the entire family could probably learn to diversify how they name their children.  Shake things up a bit, folks!  Name the next one something wild like Chandler or Trixie!

They would also be wise to diversify the gene pool. They are swimming in dangerously shallow waters.

[paigow]

If all the various bastards were identified and prevented from breeding across related family trees, geno-diversity could be restored in 2 or 3 generations...

[Oscirus]

9 hours ago, rlc said:

They would also be wise to diversify the gene pool. They are swimming in dangerously shallow waters.

 

Crazily enough when King Aegon (not this aegon, the conquerer or the unworthy because of course), tried to diversify his bloodline, two of his kids defied him and got married, anyway. 

[baldryanr]

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Crazily enough when King Aegon (not this aegon, the conquerer or the unworthy because of course), tried to diversify his bloodline, two of his kids defied him and got married, anyway. 

An attraction to platinum blonde hair must be a genetic trait.

That being said, it makes you wonder how much Targ blood is actually required to ride a dragon.  Half is clearly enough, but how about 1/4? 1/8? 

[Affogato]

1 minute ago, baldryanr said:

An attraction to platinum blonde hair must be a genetic trait.

That being said, it makes you wonder how much Targ blood is actually required to ride a dragon.  Half is clearly enough, but how about 1/4? 1/8? 

We don’t know what attracts dragons or why they bond and the bond is not defined. I still maintain that you get more ruthless and self centered as time goes on, if you are bonded with a dragon. And that was why Viserys refused to continue bonding with the black dragon. But that’s a theory. 

[paigow]

Some dragons have a better moral compass than people. Drogon melted the Iron Throne instead of Jon Snow.

Edited July 7 by paigow

[Johnny Dollar]

Aegon’s Bro-Knight buddies remind me of the friends of the bad guy from every early 80s teen sex comedy. I’m surprised they’re not named Ser Booger and Ser Moose. I expect Ted McGinley will be showing up soon. 

[SharonH58]

On 7/1/2024 at 7:31 AM, Spartan Girl said:

 

Every time I get sucked back into this show, they always bring up that stupid prophecy and I’m reminded how much GOT screwed the pooch and burned us all…but let’s not open that can of worms again.

Yes every time they bring that up I say well that meant nothing in the end!

[Affogato]

On 7/6/2024 at 10:03 AM, paigow said:

Some dragons have a better moral compass than people. Drogon melted the Iron Throne instead of Jon Snow.

This actually supports a theory I expressed earlier. If the humans grow more dragonlike, the dragons grow more human. Drogan likely spared Jon because Dany cared for him. 

[Roseanna]

On 7/1/2024 at 5:29 AM, scarynikki12 said:

The talk between Rhaenyra and Alicent was great. Rhaenyra now knows her father never betrayed her and Alicent was confronted with the truth that family members having the same names as each other can be confusing enough to cause a civil war. Of course, Alicent being Alicent she'll purposefully move the truth of Viserys' death aside and continue on the current path because her whole identity is tied up in being a Good Person and a mistake at this level undermines that. Also I wonder when she'll realize how her and Otto's actions have trapped her? Had she stood by Rhaenyra's claim this whole time and raised her children to do the same she may have been granted an estate far away from Kings Landing and been able to live a happy life. 

 

On 7/1/2024 at 2:31 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Let’s be generous and assume Alicent really did genuinely misunderstand the last words. She still knew what kind of person her son is and yet she still moved to have him crowned and disinherit Rhaenyra despite her own admission that she would be a good queen. So I don’t feel sorry for her.

 

On 7/1/2024 at 3:36 PM, scarynikki12 said:

I see it as she both was and wasn't genuine. She was genuine in that she knew nothing of the story so it's easy to misinterpret his final words as being about her son. Where it stops being genuine is her latching onto it as a reason for Aegon becoming king. She'd been trying to displace Rhaenyra since they fell out and had run out of ideas. Then Viserys starts speaking incoherently, which she doesn't seem particularly interested in, and says the magic name: Aegon. Alicent can be forgiven for not going to the Conqueror but Rhaenyra has an Aegon of her own so, if Viserys was having a deathbed change of heart who's to say it wasn't about his grandson Aegon? Grandson Aegon has more of those creepy incest genes the Targs value so much so, for all Alicent knew, he was being named the heir. She just chose the flimsiest piece of "evidence" to support her own desires to see the Hightowers on the throne without sacrificing her reputation for being a Good Person. The fact that literally no one believed her story seems to be lost on her. 

 

On 7/1/2024 at 3:51 PM, proserpina65 said:

It was too late to stop this the moment Viserys died because there was no way Otto was going to let all his plans go to waste.  Both Alicent and Rhaenyra were delusional to think there was any way this was going to end without violence and bloodshed on a massive scale.

 

On 7/1/2024 at 4:14 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I may be naive, but I think Rhae was not crazy to think that pious Ali would come to her senses and persuade Aegon to abandon his claim given that a) she knows Rhae would be a good queen b) she knows Aegon  is a spoiled brat who will be a terrible king c) she knows that thousands of people will die in a war that should offend her faith. And that's when Rhae believed Ali was straight-up lying about Viserys naming Aegon successor on his deathbed. With the underlying justification for the seizure of power gone, surely someone who regularly visits the Sept of Baelor and prays for guidance would do the right thing and avert a long and bloody war, right?

Well, it turns out that Ali likes power a little more than she likes her faith.

Rhae was stupid for thinking that she could waltz into King's Landing, have a talk with Ali, and waltz back home, though. There's no in-universe explanation I can see for why Ali did not rat out Rhae the moment she walked far enough away that Rhae couldn't carry out her threat. Also, I daresay that if it came out that Rhae killed the queen personally in a sept on top of killing a baby, any other support that she might have would fade away. Yes, Daemon might pursue a claim for the throne.. or Jace. but what self-respecting lord would keep to an oath to someone who did such a thing? I think she would immediately lose the support of the Starks, for example. I suppose there's the flipside that the Greens would have shown themselves very vulnerable.

 

On 7/1/2024 at 4:25 PM, baldryanr said:

Maybe, just maybe, Alicent would have been willing to go to Aegon, tell him about the misunderstanding, and beg him to give up the throne.  But what idiot would think Aegon would give up just because his mom asked him to, especially after what happened to Jaeherys?  When it comes to loved ones to protect, Aegon has far less to lose - in fact, one could argue that Jaeherys was the only person Aegon truly cared about.

 

On 7/2/2024 at 5:12 AM, ChicksDigScars said:

Yeah, Alicent. You're a cunty dumb ass. Glad you finally realized that your dying husband was deliriously mumbling about a story that he used to tell his favored child, and THAT'S who he was thinking about in his final moments. Not you. Not your dim bulb deviant eldest offspring. You heard what you wanted to hear and your sexual assaulting, bully of a son is  now (literally) drunk with power and lusts for war. And you are powerless to stop it. Not even hand jobbing the Hand will get you your way now. He doesn't pine for you the way he did Rhaenyra. He controls you with sex, not the other way around. 

 

On 7/3/2024 at 4:34 PM, Uncle JUICE said:

I am not sure this tracks here. She's not consciously making the decision to deft the king's wishes for succession, as much as she's protecting the lives of her children and grand children (one of which, at least, Rhaenyra is responsible for killing in his bed). There's no way to protect her children if Rhaenyra is alive, right? There simply isn't a solution where everyone lives happily ever after. Perhaps Alicent wouldn't be able to see that past her former friendship with Rhaenyra AND her guilt about her own hypocrisy over why it's started, but that's all sunken cost now. Letting her leave is almost sure to cost her more in the end when the war forces one or more of her children into danger. 

ETA: I wish that scene would have featured Alicent ending it by saying "If you truly want a bloodless war, Rhaenyre, surrender to me, now, right here. I swear before these gods in this holy place that I will not let harm come to you or your children." THen what happens?

Generally, people believe what they want to believe, so I don't blame Alicent for making an interpretation she did about Viserys' dying words. Also, I very much doubt if she acknowledged even to herself she had made a wrong interpretation. 

And of course it wouldn't make any difference then or now. Otto would have made Aegon the king on whatever grounds and now Alicent has no power to persuade Aegon to abdicate.

The crux of the matter IMO was that Otto persuaded Alicent to believe that if Rhaenyra became the Queen, her sons would be in danger. That was such a good argument because that kind of thing used to happen, but it was also fateful because Otto's own actions made a theoretical danger to a more probable one if his side lose the battle.

Uncle Joe is in theory right in that it's Rhaenyra, not Alicent, who could stop the war  by renouncing her rights. Only, would Daemon stop to try to become the king? And would Aemond stop to try to kill Rhaenyra's son?

Finally, people didn't renounce their rights because in their world it was do or die.       

On 7/4/2024 at 1:47 AM, Lady S. said:

Nope, it goes king's heir (usually firstborn son>>>heir's children and grandchildren>>>king's spare>>>spare's children and so on and so forth. Even if the king's heir died before being crowned, the heir's heir is still next in line. That's why Vaemond Velaryon had to try to use the bastardy of Luke against him, because even with Laenor dead, his son was still the next heir. In modern terms, if Prince William dropped dead somehow soon, his children would still come before Prince Harry and his kids. That's why Rhaenys is the Queen Who Never Was, because even with her father, the firstborn son dead, she (and her son) still had a royal birthright. I found it kind of ironic that she had to use her grandfather's legacy to defend Rhaenyra when that guy summoned the entire aristocracy to council just to create a legal precedent to disinherit her and Laenor in favor of Viserys. (I've thought a lot about that Great Council which started all this by putting failed king Viserys on the throne and I do think that was its real purpose, more than any doubt by king or general public about choosing a male or female heir. Corlys very clearly imo believed he had married an heiress or at least that their son would be king, and there's no suggestion that he was being singularly delusional about that. So the Great Council served to stop the Velaryons and her Baratheon kin from fighting for the throne by showing how outnumbered they'd be and saying that this new legal decison was against them.)

While I do think Rhaenyra set up the potential for another succession crisis by doing exactly what her father did in remarrying and having more Valyrian-haired sons--even with how much more functional her blended family seems, Jace can only be so close to a half-brother 10+yrs younger and Aegon II is proof that a prince can be somewhat forced by the right people into usurping his sibling--but I do find it very noteworthy that when Jace and Luke went out as envoys nobody cared about their obvious illegitimacy. People far from King's Landing may not know about Harwin specifically, but the hair really is a dead giveaway. Yet even the Lord Baratheon who rejected Luke only did so because Rhaenyra's elder sons weren't free to marry a Baratheon daughter as Aemond was. The people supporting Rhaenyra from the Starks and Arryns and Blackwoods to those lesser lords on her council must be aware of who her heir is and are implicitly supporting his claim as well, so I think a good number would still support him without her, especially those he'd met with personally, the oathkeeping Cregan Stark and his maternal cousin Lady Arryn. My thinking is that any opposition to Jace as king would be those who disagreed with his policies using his bastardy as a pretext and his half-brothers as natural opposition figureheads. Maybe some of the Team Black houses would be more cautious about their chances in success in supporting a bastard against trueborn Valyrian-haired princes, but they are already taking the risk of supporting a female heir with multiple brothers (when a regular heiress usually would not have any), and she's a Queen who's already a known adulterer, a suspected husband-killer, and now an alleged babykiller at that. 

 

On 7/5/2024 at 6:38 PM, proserpina65 said:

Those houses who wouldn't support a woman on the throne wouldn't throw their support behind someone they see as a bastard over the previous king's legitimate son.  And so far, Team Green's messaging has been much more convincing because no one truly believes that Rhaenyra's eldest children are actually Velaryons.

Succession in Westeros is based by male-preference primogeniture, the idea that the throne passes through the line of the king's sons.  Viserys broke generations of tradition by naming a daughter heir.  Yes, he didn't have much choice given that the only other option was Daemon.  But a large portion of Westeros was never going to accept Rhaenyra as queen once Viserys had sons, and those same houses wouldn't view her sons as the next in line because they never considered her the rightful heir over her half-brothers.  The fact that Jace and Joffrey are bastards is a further blow to any claims they might have had.

Maybe, although we haven't seen him on Sunfyre so we don't know what sort of flying experience he has.  Plus, Sunfyre is older and bigger, which would be some advantage in a fight.  It probably would be a very well-matched fight.

The only way this plan could've resulted in peace was is Rhaenyra went to King's Landing and bent the knee to Aegon, and even then, there still would be Daemon to deal with.

Because drunken rapist is not considered a disqualification for kings according to royal biographers.

 

 

Both parties have faulty grounds on succession, but also the rules aren't clear.

The former king's nephew Viserys was chosen over his daughter Rhaenys on the basis of vote whereas Viserys named his daughter Rhaenyra his successor over his brother Daemon. 

If the succession was based on male primogenture, Viserys's later sons by Alicent would have more right than his daughter. On the other hand, the vassals had made their oath to Rhaenyra but, even if there were ample time, Vizserys didn't publicly declare Aegon as his heir and make the vassals take their oath to him.

So Rhaenyra had better grounds, but her sons by her first marriage hadn't as they were bastards (although technically they weren't as her husband had accepted them as his own).  

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Generally, people believe what they want to believe, so I don't blame Alicent for making an interpretation she did about Viserys' dying words. Also, I very much doubt if she acknowledged even to herself she had made a wrong interpretation. 

And of course it wouldn't make any difference then or now. Otto would have made Aegon the king on whatever grounds and now Alicent has no power to persuade Aegon to abdicate.

The crux of the matter IMO was that Otto persuaded Alicent to believe that if Rhaenyra became the Queen, her sons would be in danger. That was such a good argument because that kind of thing used to happen, but it was also fateful because Otto's own actions made a theoretical danger to a more probable one if his side lose the battle.

Uncle Joe is in theory right in that it's Rhaenyra, not Alicent, who could stop the war  by renouncing her rights. Only, would Daemon stop to try to become the king? And would Aemond stop to try to kill Rhaenyra's son?

Finally, people didn't renounce their rights because in their world it was do or die.       

It would have been interesting to find out what Ali would have done if she had not misinterpreted Viserys's babbling about the Song of Ice and Fire into thinking that there had been a deathbed conversion to supporting Aegon. Would her semi-pious nature allow a more naked power grab on behalf of the son she knows to be an unwise, incompetent, raping narcissist who neither Viserys nor genes nor circumstances did anything to equip for the job?

While it's true that there would be a limit to how much she could do, I would think sending a few dozen ravens in support of Rhae's claim would be fairly simple and impactful.

In terms of renouncing claims, Maester Aemon from GOT offers a counter-example. While Rhae could presumably not take the black and presumably would not, say, become a septa or something, the terms offered her I believe included keeping Dragonstone. Now of course, maybe she would have been a fool to believe that Aegon and the rest of the Greens would not shank her and her family just to eliminate any threat.

Edited July 16 by Chicago Redshirt