Midsomer Murders - General Discussion

[Llywela]

Okay, so my ongoing in-order rewatch has now brought me to the end of the Jones era and on to Nelson. I have to admit, I am more bereft over losing Jones than I was over Tom and co, but it helps that I do also like Nelson, on the whole, although he isn't as entertaining as Jones was, with his snark and his bad jokes. Nelson is much more earnest – slightly scruffier, as well, I note, with his stubble and smart-casual dress style, continuing the general theme wherein every time a basic character archetype is replaced on this show (DCI, wife, DS, pathologist), the new one is always a very definite contrast to the old. The way Nelson is styled is really striking me, this time around, as he's the first DS we've seen that is John's alone. Jones was inherited from Tom, who was an old school copper. Practically the first thing Tom said to Jones, when he pulled him out of uniform to be his new right-hand man, was to change into a suit, and Jones clearly took that to heart as we very rarely saw him wearing anything else ever again. I seem to recall Tom having a go at Scott, as well, for not wearing a tie. He was an old-fashioned copper with set ideas about how a detective should dress and comport himself, and he expected his sergeants to follow his lead in that.

John is also a suit and tie man, but once he has Nelson, who isn't, he isn't the slightest bit concerned about it – whereas Tom would have had the newbie change into a shirt and tie the moment he laid eyes on him! And…I dunno, that contrast in style is really striking me, in this rewatch. Something else I've realised on this rewatch is that I actually really do appreciate the way this show – like Doctor Who, in a sense – refreshes itself from time to time. Given that the general formula is always the same, it helps that the relationships and dynamics get freshened up now and then, so that the characters bounce off one another in different ways even while treading the hamster wheel of endless murder investigations. It also allows the characters to progress as the seasons go by – retiring, getting promoted, transferring in and out, etc – in a way that feels real, inasmuch as the very unreal world of Midsomer is capable of feeling real. That progression is about as close to continuity as this show gets!

I think of all the sergeants, Jones has the strongest 'arc', for want of a better word, with Troy a close second – no coincidence that they are the two longest serving. But Jones wins because Troy was already a DS when we first met him, whereas with Jones we get to see him progress from a cheeky constable through the steep learning curve of joining CID and securing his promotion to sergeant, through the rocky transition of Tom's retirement and building a partnership with the new DCI he was initially so wary of, through to becoming the confident, competent detective on display in his final episodes. He doesn't get a farewell episode like Troy did, but it comes as no surprise in season 16 to learn that he's been promoted and moved on, because he was clearly ready for it by the end of season 15. (Also, for those who stop watching after Tom's retirement and have never seen the John years, you are missing out on both Jones undercover and Jones dressed as a nun, both well worth the price of admission!)

I don't think, to be honest, that I've ever seen all of the Nelson-Winter eras through in order before, because I was only watching intermittently when these episodes aired and ITV's airing of Midsomer Murders has always been a bit disjointed, easy to not realise when a new episode is on, so that most of my viewing of these later seasons has been via reruns, which tend to be random episodes aired in no particular order at all. So I'm interested to see how it all plays out in order, as this rewatch slowly works its way toward being all caught up.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Llywela

[Llywela]

And now my ongoing rewatch has come to the end of Nelson and the start of Winter, so I'm almost back up-to-date again.

Nelson is a curious one, to me. I don't want to call him bland, because 'quiet and earnest' is a completely valid personality for a character to have, and I do like Nelson a lot, he's a very sweet character. But, as a Detective Sergeant in Midsomer Murders, he has the misfortune of both coming on the heels of three much more colourful characters and featuring in an era of the show that doesn't have quite the same zest and whimsy as it once did, that feels rather more of a generic murder mystery. They could probably have got away with a DS whose primary personality trait was 'quiet competence' if the cases were more colourful, and they could probably have got away with less entertaining cases if the characterisation were more dynamic, but the combination of the two does Nelson no favours.

As a character he feels quite rootless - he sticks around longer than Scott did, but he spends the whole of his three seasons with the show either lodging in Kate Wilding's boxroom or living out of a B&B, so in a sense he always feels as if he is just marking time rather than in for the long haul. In three full seasons we learn next to nothing about him as a person. I've just watched all his episodes in the last two weeks, and all I can tell you about him as a person is that he liked magic tricks as a child and is overly competitive with Kam. More than any of the other sergeants, he feels like a placeholder, someone who exists purely to fill the role of the DS - someone to provide exposition on evidence he's unearthed, someone to tag along with Barnaby, someone for Barnaby to think out loud at, someone to break down doors and chase after suspects so Barnaby doesn't have to, etc. The previous sergeants all filled exactly the same narrative role, but had enough personality that it wasn't quite as obvious, there was always a bit more to them. Nelson is probably the most competent DS of the lot, he never seems to make any mistakes, but there just isn't much else to him beyond that. A few imperfections, a few more facets to his personality would have done wonders. 

I feel bad criticising him, though, because he is very sweet, and Gwilym Lee does his best with the material he is given.

Winter makes more of an impression in his first episode alone, however. He chatters, he makes mistakes, he thinks out loud, he gets things wrong, he's enthusiastic, he doesn't always do as he is told (because saving the boss is more important, good boy). And, in keeping with the tradition of the show, he makes a marked contrast to Nelson - where Nelson dressed fairly casually, Winter is always very smartly buttoned up, very much a fast-tracked public school boy.

On another note entirely, I don't know if readers here are interested in Midsomer Murders actors in other roles, but if so, for Jones fans I recommend checking out season one of The Pact, if you get the chance - I've just rewatched it this week and reminded myself how lovely Jason Hughes is in it as the husband of the main character. He plays a police officer again - the character changed career to join the police in his 40s, which means we get to see him plucked out of patrol to join CID on a murder case all over again! His character, Max Price, is a genuinely lovely guy (and a very good detective) who finds his loyalties tested to the limit when his wife is implicated in the death of her boss. It's a great performance by Hughes, very different from Ben Jones, and I thoroughly recommend it. Only six episodes, but I don't know how available it is outside of the UK.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Llywela

[Llywela]

No one else is posting so I'm back again to say that I'd forgotten about Jones making a return appearance so early in Winter's run, but having rewatched it is now right up there among my favourite episodes. So much fun - Barnaby's face when he first lays eyes on him and has to swallow his shock to avoid breaking Jones's cover, Jones being all "Call me Jack," knowing full well how awkward the situation is but unable at first to say anything about his undercover role, Winter giving them both epic side eyes, so suspicious at first and then embarrassed about it later. The face journeys and the snark - glorious. And it is nice to see Barnaby and Jones interacting more or less as peers, no longer boss and subordinate, plus Sarah being so happy to see Jones, learning that he is Betty's godfather - this show doesn't have a huge amount of obvious continuity, but details like that, and the little thread of Kate Wilding having moved to Brighton and still being friends with Jones there (which we'd first learned back in the Nelson era), it does a lot to add a sense of at least some kind of continuity.

Watching little Betty grow up is also a nice throughline through these later seasons, so I'm glad they wrote Fiona Dolman's real life pregnancy into the show the way they did. Plus, making John and Sarah first time parents in their 40s and then showing them parenting a small child provides a strong contrast with Tom and Joyce, empty nesters with an adult child popping in and out to visit.

Winter definitely works better than Nelson as a Midsomer Murders DS. I dunno, maybe cocky and brash just fits the format better than quietly earnest did, makes the role a bit less one-note - or maybe it's just my own personal preference!

(It is also amusing me that we are told Nelson left Midsomer to train for undercover roles, but of all the Midsomer sergeants, Jones is the one we see going undercover on multiple occasions, not Nelson)

Edited November 1, 2023 by Llywela

[BlackberryJam]

Nelson is a big personality void for me. He was "fine" but I never took to him. I like Winter so much better.

I'm sure I'm one of the many, but I do not miss Cully at all. I do miss Joyce though. I wish we would get more of Sarah working now that Betty is older. 

[LakeGal]

I liked Nelson except when Cam was around.  I really disliked their rivalry over everything.  I was glad when she left.  

[Llywela]

23 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Nelson is a big personality void for me. He was "fine" but I never took to him. I like Winter so much better. 

Yes. I mean, I do like Nelson. He's very sweet. There just isn't anything more to him than that, and the absence of personality quirks is quite glaring when you marathon the show the way I've been doing, getting to see and compare all the sergeants in rapid succession - it certainly didn't jump out at me in the same way when I was just watching random episodes here and there in no particular order.

I want to say it's a writing issue, but I'm not sure. We just don't get to see Nelson display any real emotion over anything, in three full seasons. He grumbles a bit over how messy Kate is when he lodges with her and is overly competitive with Kam, for no readily apparent reason, and that's about as much as we ever get. Every single one of the other sergeants is given so much more personality than that.

The episode I mentioned above with Jones making a return visit to Midsomer is a good example actually (Last Man Out). We get so much personality from Winter in that one, a wide range of emotions on display. He is deeply suspicious of 'Jack Morris' and then embarrassed when he realises Jones is actually an undercover detective, crestfallen when Barnaby can't remember his name, jealous of Kam's interest in Jones, and so on and so forth, and all of that helps flesh him out as a person, tells us more about who he is, beyond just going through the motions of the actual sergeant role in the investigation. Nelson never gets anything like that. His entire personality is 'quietly competent detective', with no facets at all, he rarely if ever displays any real emotional reaction to anything. All surface, very little substance. No wonder he feels so much less real and less entertaining as a character than the other sergeants, who are all so much more colourful.

My rewatch has just reached Fleur. Now there's a character with no shortage of personality!

ETA - I'm not overly fond of Cully, either.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Llywela

[BlackberryJam]

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

The episode I mentioned above with Jones making a return visit to Midsomer is a good example actually (Last Man Out). We get so much personality from Winter in that one, a wide range of emotions on display. He is deeply suspicious of 'Jack Morris' and then embarrassed when he realises Jones is actually an undercover detective, crestfallen when Barnaby can't remember his name, jealous of Kam's interest in Jones, and so on and so forth, and all of that helps flesh him out as a person, tells us more about who he is, beyond just going through the motions of the actual sergeant role in the investigation. Nelson never gets anything like that. His entire personality is 'quietly competent detective', with no facets at all, he rarely if ever displays any real emotional reaction to anything. All surface, very little substance. No wonder he feels so much less real and less entertaining as a character than the other sergeants, who are all so much more colourful.

My rewatch has just reached Fleur. Now there's a character with no shortage of personality!

ETA - I'm not overly fond of Cully, either.

I absolutely agree about Winter! Even when they are playing him just for comedy, he's giving a ton of emotion. Maybe it was in the scripts for Nelson and the actor just wasn't very good? At one point I thought they were going to pair up Nelson and Kate romantically, but that never happened. It would have given Nelson something to do.

I adore Fleur. I love that they gave her the name Fleur, which I mostly associate with the young pretty girl from Harry Potter, and not an "old lady" name like Shirley or Gertrude. I love that she has sex, drinks, bikes, all the fun stuff. She looks like Miss Marple but parties like Mic Jagger. And she knows her forensics.

 

[Llywela]

42 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I absolutely agree about Winter! Even when they are playing him just for comedy, he's giving a ton of emotion. Maybe it was in the scripts for Nelson and the actor just wasn't very good? At one point I thought they were going to pair up Nelson and Kate romantically, but that never happened. It would have given Nelson something to do.

I adore Fleur. I love that they gave her the name Fleur, which I mostly associate with the young pretty girl from Harry Potter, and not an "old lady" name like Shirley or Gertrude. I love that she has sex, drinks, bikes, all the fun stuff. She looks like Miss Marple but parties like Mic Jagger. And she knows her forensics.

I think the competitive thing with Kam was a bit of a hail Mary intended to perhaps give Nelson slightly more of a personality than had previously been displayed, but it wasn't enough. Too little too late. I liked his comfortable housemates vibe with Kate, but preferred the rather flirtier vibe she had with Jones - who she moved in with after leaving Midsomer, we were told, if only as a stopgap while househunting. I always thought it was a shame Jones's return appearance didn't confirm those two had got together at last (I'm not sure why the show is so committed to always keeping the sergeants single and unattached). Then again, it also didn't tell us that they hadn't, and Jones did mention Kate, they were clearly still close and both still in the same town, so I can imagine!

I've noticed on this rewatch that Brighton gets mentioned a lot, and I'm not entirely sure why, there are plenty of other cities along the coastline south of the general area the fictional Midsomer is supposed to be - many of them nearer, in fact - so it seems strange that Brighton is always the go-to. Someone on the writing staff clearly has a thing for Brighton! Actually, I believe actor Jason Hughes was living in Brighton the whole time he worked on the show, so maybe it was a nod to that. The production wasn't based near there, though, as he cited the gruelling commute as a large part of the reason he left, in the end, so who knows!

Fleur makes such a strong contrast to her predecessors. I do appreciate that after Bullard's retirement the pathologists are all female, since the central detective duo is always male. Kate and Kam were very much of a kind, though, whereas Fleur is utterly one-of-a kind. They broke the mould when they created her! Annette Badland is such a powerhouse of an actor, she's had a fantastic career - a character like Fleur must seem like an absolute gift.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Llywela

[Prevailing Wind]

Oh, holy crap. She's so OLD.  So I looked her up. She's younger than I am.  LOL.

I adore her, no matter what her age is.

But what I've noticed that annoys me: People always park so far from where they're going.  "Death in Chorus" is an example - Giles Armitage has dragged his drugged wife to the river to drown her. Barnaby & Jones drive up to the scene and stop the car quite a distance away from the river. Why the hell didn't they just drive up to the river?  Yeah, yeah, it adds suspense. Sorry, but if the thing's written properly, there's enough tension without manufacturing it with illogical parking.

BTW, the actor playing Armitage, Ronan Vibert, died last year after a "short illness" according to imdb.  He was 58.

[MMEButterfly]

On 11/7/2023 at 10:25 AM, BlackberryJam said:

 

I adore Fleur. I love that they gave her the name Fleur, which I mostly associate with the young pretty girl from Harry Potter, and not an "old lady" name like Shirley or Gertrude. I love that she has sex, drinks, bikes, all the fun stuff. She looks like Miss Marple but parties like Mic Jagger. And she knows her forensics.

 

Annette Badland played Gladys, the unfortunate housemaid who died with a clothespin on her nose in the original Miss Marple "A Pocketful of Rye." 

[dgpolo]

17 minutes ago, MMEButterfly said:

Annette Badland played Gladys, the unfortunate housemaid who died with a clothespin on her nose in the original Miss Marple "A Pocketful of Rye."

The first time I looked up the actress and saw that in her credits I was shocked, I'd no idea. I can see that it's her but she was so young and unwrinkled! She played a pretty evil character on an episode of Shakespeare and Hathaway.

[Nashville]

On 5/20/2023 at 12:58 AM, Fool to cry said:

The synopsis for "Picture of Innocence" did not prepare me...

I cackled when I first saw this scene; the uniformity of the black jackets had #DigitalDelinquents immediately popping to mind, but they all seemed a little long in the tooth to qualify as “delinquents”.  #DigitalThugs, maybe…?  😆

[Llywela]

Season 21. The one with the ballroom dancing. It always amuses me to spot the former Strictly Come Dancing stars in that one - ITV making the most of BBC-funded dance training!

One thing that has struck me on this run-through is how much less directly involved with the cases Sarah is, compared with Joyce. John always talks things through with her, and she often supports him with a spot of research, but she very rarely has any direct involvement and actually survives quite a number of years in Midsomer before stumbling upon her first corpse - whereas Joyce was up to her ears in bodies right from the start. By the end, in fact, it amazed me that Joyce remained so keen to take up new hobbies all the time, given how often they ended in bloodshed and tears!

Another thing that has struck me is that we aren't given any insight into Winter's living arrangements, which is something he has in common with Troy and Jones - and the other thing those three have in common is that they are all in it for the long haul, so to speak. It struck me in particular about Winter, following on from Nelson, because the show was always so pointed about how transient Nelson's living arrangements were. He went from a B&B to Kate Wilding's box room back to the B&B again, which always seemed weird because why would anyone live out of a B&B (expensive!) when they could, for instance, rent a flat of their own. I doubt it was intentional on the part of the show, but in retrospect it really underlines that Nelson never put down any roots in Midsomer - which reminds me of Scott and that horrible little bedsit we saw him living in, during his brief time on the show. Again, no roots. Winter, however, is on the other side of that dividing line. We know nothing about his living arrangements, but like Troy and Jones he has stuck around for years and seems well settled, although he also contrasts those two because he isn't a local, whereas they both went to school in Causton (and should have been there at the same time, as well as having both worked out of Causton Police Station at the same time, so it's weird that they didn't seem to know one another when they met at Cully's wedding).

I dunno, it just struck me as interesting.

Another point of interest: Winter very obviously has a key to John and Sarah's house. There are a whole bunch of occasions where he just walks straight in, where his predecessors always knocked or rang the bell.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Llywela

[BlackberryJam]

It took me awhile to warm up to John over Tom Barnaby, but in doing a rewatch of the first season, Tom was mean to Troy. I get that book Troy is pretty gross, and show Troy makes homophobic comments, but Tom is just outright mean sometimes, and not about Troy's homophobia. I know that dynamic improved over the years, but I appreciate John Barnaby more than thought.

However...Neil Dudgeon narrates the Cherringham mystery novellas and the "female" voices he does are horrible. It's to the point that I just giggle. 

[Llywela]

49 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

It took me awhile to warm up to John over Tom Barnaby, but in doing a rewatch of the first season, Tom was mean to Troy. I get that book Troy is pretty gross, and show Troy makes homophobic comments, but Tom is just outright mean sometimes, and not about Troy's homophobia. I know that dynamic improved over the years, but I appreciate John Barnaby more than thought. 

Yeah. I think part of the trouble with the Tom-John transition was that Tom had been around for so damn long at that point, he'd become an institution, so that anyone would have struggled taking over from him, just because viewers were so attached to him and so resistant to the idea of a different Barnaby. And then, Tom had mellowed so much over the years, John's more curmudgeonly personality came as a bit of a shock to the system - easy to forget that Tom was also quite prickly in the beginning! And I still think it was a mistake to set John so much at odds with Jones in his first solo episode, although I am grateful that we at least did have Jones through that transitional period - apparently Jason Hughes had planned to leave the show after season 11, he was really struggling with the hours and being away from his young family so much, but then when the entire Tom Barnaby clan left all at the same time, he agreed a new contract to help the show through the transition. Which was sorely needed. Just imagine if we'd had both a new DCI and a new DS to adjust to all at the same time! Especially if that new DS had been a Nelson.

What really reconciled me to John was going back and watching random episodes of his out of order. I love him now, he's great! I like him even more after this epic in-order re-watch of mine (nearly finished now, only a couple of seasons to go). There is a soft centre under that prickly exterior.

I sometimes wonder what will happen with the show going forward. John Nettles remained in the role into his 70s, but in reality senior police officers tend to retire fairly young and Neil Dudgeon is over 60 now. Would the show be quietly retired if he were to leave? Or would they try to reinvent it again? As I recall, the reason a new Barnaby was invented to take over when Nettles left was because although the show is called Midsomer Murders in English, the name doesn't really translate, so that overseas it tends to be aired under the name 'Barnaby'. So I'm not sure how they would handle it if they wanted to continue the show after Dudgeon stands down. I'd be all over the idea of Troy or Jones coming back as the new DCI, coming full circle - a bit like the Lewis spin-off from Morse - but that wouldn't work under the overseas Barnaby title. Maybe John or Tom has a nephew!

ETA - here's another thought that has struck me on this rewatch, which is John and Sarah's backstory. There are a bunch of episodes which imply they are meant to be about the same age and were at university together - but in reality, Neil Dudgeon is almost 10 years older than Fiona Dolman. So I often wonder what age they are meant to be. Maybe the characters meet in the middle, John being a bit younger than Neil and Sarah being a bit older than Fiona! Dolman was over 40 when her daughter was born,though, the pregnancy that was written into the show as Betty, so Sarah can't be too much older than she is. Just a little curiosity I've been pondering on during this rewatch.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Llywela

[BlackberryJam]

@LlywelaI would love to have Troy or Jones back as the new DI. I don't want to get off topic, but I loved Lewis until Laurence Fox started opening his stupid gob. That guy is like the UK's response to the Charlie Sheen meltdown. Now I can't watch it.

I didn't know about the Barnaby name issue. I guess it makes sense, like Bergerac.

As long as they don't try to bring back Cully as a DI, I'm good!

It might be a good running joke to bring back Troy or Jones and have everyone refer to them as Gavin Barnaby or Ben Barnaby and say, "Well, the DI has always been Barnaby, so get used to it," or something.

I should do a rewatch of the entire series. 

[Llywela]

45 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

It might be a good running joke to bring back Troy or Jones and have everyone refer to them as Gavin Barnaby or Ben Barnaby and say, "Well, the DI has always been Barnaby, so get used to it," or something.

I should do a rewatch of the entire series. 

There was a scene in John's first solo episode where Jones introduced him to someone, and they were like, "???Are you all called Barnaby???" 😄

I have found a complete in-order rewatch of the show really rewarding. I thought I had seen every episode multiple times over, over the years, but have found a fair few that I have little or no memory of at all, so they clearly aren't all included in reruns. Even with the ones I remember well, it hits differently watching through in order than picking up random episodes here and there. You get a new appreciation of the way the show has developed, over the years.

It probably doesn't work the same way for overseas viewers, but, as a Brit, I find with the episodes I don't remember as well I have a lot of fun studying the guest cast, figuring out which of those actors is high profile enough to be the most likely killer. Or maybe high profile is the wrong phrase. Stalwarts of the British TV industry, so to speak. It's like, oh look, Richard Briers or Caroline Langrishe, or whoever: what kind of show would hire an actor of that calibre and experience, and then not have them carted off in a police car at the end? It doesn't always play out that way, but it works often enough to be a fun game!

Edited November 13, 2023 by Llywela

[BlackberryJam]

I love playing, "Where is that actor now?" and "Wait is that...?"

Young Orlando Bloom, Henry Cavill, Olivia Colman, James Callis...so much fun. 

I enjoy new shows, things I haven't seen before, but there is something really comforting in a rewatch. 

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I love playing, "Where is that actor now?" and "Wait is that...?"

Young Orlando Bloom, Henry Cavill, Olivia Colman, James Callis...so much fun. 

Ooh yeah, Before They Were Famous is also a good game, with this show. Orlando Bloom, Henry Cavill and Olivia Colman are all great examples of that one. James Callis falls under the other heading, the Stalwart of the Industry that you sit through the episode wondering whether or not they would possibly have hired someone like that if not to play the killer. (I'm not sure, though, whether overseas viewers can play that game the same way. It works for me because I know the British TV industry inside out. A lot of the shows those Stalwarts worked on probably aren't as well known overseas, though, so the names and faces don't hit in the same way.)

There are loads of possible tells for the killer, though. Old Friend (or New Friend, for that matter) of any of the regulars is always a strong contender.  Any guest character who seems impossibly sweet and innocent is another, the more unlikely the better. And if anyone combines more than one of those characteristics, well. Case closed! 😄

Trying to figure out the killer from the actual plot tends to be secondary, for me. I look for the tells first!

As much as I enjoy discovering new shows, I find I have to be in the right mood, whereas if I just want to take my brain off the hook for a bit, I have a short list of old favourites that I turn to again and again. Midsomer Murders is on that list.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Llywela

[BlackberryJam]

29 minutes ago, Llywela said:

 James Callis falls under the other heading, the Stalwart of the Industry that you sit through the episode wondering whether or not they would possibly have hired someone like that if not to play the killer. (I'm not sure, though, whether overseas viewers can play that game the same way. It works for me because I know the British TV industry inside out. A lot of the shows those Stalwarts worked on probably aren't as well known overseas, though, so the names and faces don't hit in the same way.)

There are loads of possible tells for the killer, though. Old Friend (or New Friend, for that matter) of any of the regulars is always a strong contender.  Any guest character who seems impossibly sweet and innocent is another, the more unlikely the better. And if anyone combines more than one of those characteristics, well. Case closed! 😄

Trying to figure out the killer from the actual plot tends to be secondary, for me. I look for the tells first!

As much as I enjoy discovering new shows, I find I have to be in the right mood, whereas if I just want to take my brain off the hook for a bit, I have a short list of old favourites that I turn to again and again. Midsomer Murders is on that list.

With James Callis, I'm just yelling "OF COURSE GAUIS BALTAR DID IT!"

I like finding actors who have also been in Poirot, Marple or Death in Paradise. 

Lewis did a run where it was always the single middle-aged woman as the killer. That was a truly annoying period in the show. I do enjoy trying to pick the killer from the stereotype. 

That's why these shows are so fun and comforting. I can engage only on a shallow level and let my brain relax. 

[mellyf]

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

@LlywelaI would love to have Troy or Jones back as the new DI. I don't want to get off topic, but I loved Lewis until Laurence Fox started opening his stupid gob. That guy is like the UK's response to the Charlie Sheen meltdown. Now I can't watch it.

I didn't know about the Barnaby name issue. I guess it makes sense, like Bergerac.

As long as they don't try to bring back Cully as a DI, I'm good!

It might be a good running joke to bring back Troy or Jones and have everyone refer to them as Gavin Barnaby or Ben Barnaby and say, "Well, the DI has always been Barnaby, so get used to it," or something.

I should do a rewatch of the entire series. 

I knew there was a reason I stopped watching Lewis. I'm currently re-watching, but only in Season 2, and I was wondering why I ever stopped watching because I'm really enjoying it so far. But reading your comment rings a bell...like the reason I stopped watching had something to do with Laurence Fox. I actually watched 3 episodes of Morse recently, but by the third, I was over it. I just didn't like him, and it seemed like in those first three episodes, he was just really needy with regards to women. 

And I am definitely in for Troy or Jones coming back as DI! I like John more than I used to, but I still am not a big fan of how he is in his first season.

Edited to add: I think my reasons had more to do with him (Laurence Fox) on the show...I liked him less and less, but I don't remember why.

Edited November 13, 2023 by mellyf
Clarification

[Llywela]

Just to note that the lead in this show is always a DCI, Detective Chief Inspector, rather than a DI, Detective Inspector. Both Tom and John Barnaby are DCIs. Troy and Jones both left the show after being promoted to DI and would therefore need another promotion again before they could come back as DCI - but both have had plenty of time for that now.

It's a moot point, though, until and unless Dudgeon moves on and the show starts to look at re-tooling again.

(I never watched Lewis, and was glad I hadn't when Laurence Fox started to show his true colours.)

I'd really love if they did more return appearances by former regulars. Like if Tom had popped in for a visit for the 25th anniversary and got sucked into a case, or if a case led to a joint effort with another police force (a bit like how we first met John), which just happened to be where Troy works now, or something, so that we got to catch up with him the way we did Jones when he came back for that one episode.

I would also like it if we got confirmation that even one of the sergeants had managed to settle down with someone. The show has always been so committed to keeping them single, always!

[BlackberryJam]

I moved my Lewis talk over to that forum.

I did know the DI v DCI difference, but there are so many different initials for UK police personnel. I forget. Apologies.

I would love an episode that catches us up on the old sergeants. It would be nice to see Troy married with a wife and a couple of kids, maybe they like visits from Uncle Tom and Aunt Joyce. 

Why can't they give us the fun things?

 

[Llywela]

16 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I would love an episode that catches us up on the old sergeants. It would be nice to see Troy married with a wife and a couple of kids, maybe they like visits from Uncle Tom and Aunt Joyce. 

Why can't they give us the fun things?

Yes! Exactly this! Like, we know that Jones is Betty's godfather and when he came back to visit was clearly still quite close with John and Sarah (ETA he commented on how much Betty had grown, which suggests off-screen meet-ups). It would be lovely to have more of that kind of thing, if only storyline and cast contracts allowed it.

It occurs to me now that a connection of some sort can be traced through most of the sergeants. Scott is the odd one out, there. Troy and Jones were both friendly with Cully and met at her wedding - they'd have been at the same school at the same time and also worked out of Causton Police Station at the same time, but although Jones recognised Troy when he saw him, they didn't actually know one another to speak to until that moment. I like to imagine, though, that after the wedding they spent a bit of time in the bar together comparing notes on working for Tom Barnaby! (And exchanging phone numbers, because a useful contact is a useful contact.) Then there's the Jones-Nelson connection - they never met on-screen, but Nelson lodged with Kate Wilding, who later stayed with Jones when she moved to Brighton, and it was Nelson who told us that, which means he and Kate stayed in touch after she moved. (Actually, since Jones is Betty's godfather, he might have met Nelson off-screen at her christening, presuming they had one). Jones was still close to Kate when he made his return visit in season 19, so if Kate was also still in touch with Nelson, there's a link there. And then Jones and Winter met on-screen when Jones came back to play cricket that time - and we were shown that they did hang out at the bar comparing notes on working for Barnaby! Scott is the only one who has no connection with anyone.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Llywela

[BlackberryJam]

See...now that's fun. Like, maybe there could be a murder at a reunion at Jones and Troy's school. 

Because I'm on MM Memory Lane right now, remember when they chem-tested Troy and Cully? The murder involved one of the patients of a widowed psychologist friend of Tom's. There was a party and Troy played the spoons and was great at it. (Found a video link!) One of the psychologist's kids was played by Perdita Weeks who later became the new Higgins on Magnum, PI. 

I remember thinking, NOOOOoOOOOo, GAVIN, don't get sucked into the Cully Vortex!

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

See...now that's fun. Like, maybe there could be a murder at a reunion at Jones and Troy's school. 

Because I'm on MM Memory Lane right now, remember when they chem-tested Troy and Cully? The murder involved one of the patients of a widowed psychologist friend of Tom's. There was a party and Troy played the spoons and was great at it. (Found a video link!) One of the psychologist's kids was played by Perdita Weeks who later became the new Higgins on Magnum, PI. 

I remember thinking, NOOOOoOOOOo, GAVIN, don't get sucked into the Cully Vortex!

LOL yes. Troy and Scott both flirted with Cully, much to Tom's displeasure. Jones had enough sense not to go there (but now I'm remembering his face when he realised she'd spent the night with one of their suspects on a case, and how hard he tried to not have to be the one who told Tom!). Since Troy was invited to Cully's wedding, they must have stayed in touch to at least some extent. She might have stayed in touch with Jones, as well, given that he was the friend who talked her down from a ledge when she was panicking about getting married, and they were close enough that she asked him to be an usher for the wedding. And Cully would also have attended Causton Comprehensive, although she'd have been a good few years younger than either Troy or Jones, so they wouldn't have known one another there. But in theory all three of them could get sucked back for a school reunion...

Well, we can dream!

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Llywela

[Llywela]

I had on a random episode of the quiz show Pointless this morning - and they did a question on Midsomer murderers! I knew them all, I felt very smug. 😅

Season 22. The episode Happy Families. Caroline Quentin, Stuart Milligan, Ade Edmondson - talk about Jonathan Creek meets Midsomer!

I've noticed that Fleur is getting more and more scenes as her time with the show goes on, she gets more involved in the cases than any of her predecessors did. The inevitable result, I suppose, of hiring an industry stalwart like Annette Badland in a supporting role. They want to make the most of her!

[mellyf]

Maybe this has been posted, but I just saw that season 24 of MM is going to premier on Acorn on December 4th!

[Llywela]

Just in time for the new season, my mammoth full-show in-order rewatch has now come to an end with season 22, which is as far as ITVX can take me, season 23 isn't up, annoyingly.

The Pirates of Penzance episode in S22 is an odd one. It almost feels like a discarded script from the Joyce-Cully era, transposed onto Sarah instead - Sarah has never previously displayed any interest whatsoever in performing arts. Winter forced to join the performance is worth the price of entry, though - shades of Jones being coerced to join Joyce's choir, way back when.

One divergence between the early years and the later seasons that has occurred to me through this run is in the way the sergeants are written. Troy, Scott and Jones were all prone to tossing out wild theories, mostly just so that Barnaby (whichever Barnaby they happen to be with) could shoot them down and look brilliant by comparison, coming up with the right solution instead. That doesn't really happen with either Nelson or Winter. It is less obvious with Winter, because he is still allowed to be funny, the butt of many jokes, but it is something he definitely has in common with Nelson, a definite shift in the approach to the DCI-DS dynamic. I'm not sure if I like it or not.

When you watch the whole show through at a run like this, it really drives home how many guest actors pop up again and again in various different roles, playing a murderer here or a murder victim there, but almost never repeating their previous character. Midsomer is full of doppelgangers!

Edited November 24, 2023 by Llywela

[Prevailing Wind]

I have now adopted Peacheslatour's description of Daniel Bolt, the Gardener (Neil Dudgeon in an earlier role) of "revolting sex pest" to use on those scammers on Facebook who claim to be widowed US servicemen and would you please send me a friend request because your profile is so charming?  Bwaaahahahaha.  Thanks, PLT.

 

[Llywela]

I came down with covid over the weekend so have spent most of the last few days flaked out on the sofa watching TV - mostly seasons 9 and 10 of Midsomer Murders, absolutely perfect comfort viewing. I've decided that season 9 is my happy place. You've got Jones freshly transferred to CID all bright and eager to learn, and he is allowed by the writers to be really sharp and insightful in that first season especially, while Tom is very obviously getting a real kick out of actively mentoring a brand new baby detective. The dynamic between them is so warm and affectionate right from the start, they really are on the same wavelength most of the time, it's lovely to watch.

Such a shame that when John came in, the show fell into the trap so many shows fall into of dumbing down the existing character so that the newbie will look good by comparison - it always backfires, I don't know why they insist on doing it, there could still have been tension and personality clash between John and Jones (by way of contrast with the Tom-Jones relationship) without the character assassination.

Currently reassessing the season 10 episode Death and Dust. I always have mixed feelings about that one, since while it is great to have so many fantastic Welsh actors on-screen all at once (Sharon Morgan's daughter went through school with my little sister, I always cheer when I see her in anything), the motivation for the murder is weak and it bugs me that the episode showcases this entire family of Welsh characters and only one of them isn't a villain of some kind. The Welsh get villainised in English media an awful lot. Re-watching the episode today, though, I just enjoyed the long, luxurious views of Eryri (Snowdonia) and took pleasure in the fact that they made this field trip to Wales while they had a Welsh actor in their main cast who could actually pronounce all the place names correctly! After John Nettles mangled the name Marchogwr Allt quite horribly earlier in the episode, I got a real kick out of hearing Jason Hughes rattle off a whole list of Eryri locations along the hikers' route with perfect pronunciation.

And I daresay Midsomer can get away with a whole family of Welsh villains, since the show does give so much more casual visibility to Welsh actors than any other English show I can think of - they pop up in supporting roles all the time, just existing on-screen as Welsh people with Welsh accents, which is really rare, so good on the show for that.

The new season kicks off on Acorn today, doesn't it?

Edited December 4, 2023 by Llywela
spotted a typo

[MMEButterfly]

Season 24, 1, The Devil's Work, is back to classic Midsomer for me--a tangle of genetics, Barnaby's family involved, imaginative killings--it's all there. 

[TeslaNewton]

Season 24, episode 1 is not an episode that I'll be able to rewatch unless I fast-forward through the most horrific murder I've seen in Midsomer. Other than that, it was a very good episode. I wasn't surprised by the murderer but didn't figure out the reason why.

[Prevailing Wind]

7 hours ago, MMEButterfly said:

Season 24, 1, The Devil's Work, is back to classic Midsomer for me--a tangle of genetics, Barnaby's family involved, imaginative killings--it's all there. 

...including a Dad Joke at the end at the expense of Paddy. Bwaahahaha.

[MMEButterfly]

4 hours ago, TeslaNewton said:

Season 24, episode 1 is not an episode that I'll be able to rewatch unless I fast-forward through the most horrific murder I've seen in Midsomer. Other than that, it was a very good episode. I wasn't surprised by the murderer but didn't figure out the reason why.

It might be the most horrific I've seen in any British mystery--and for a clever reason.

[TeslaNewton]

4 hours ago, MMEButterfly said:

It might be the most horrific I've seen in any British mystery--and for a clever reason.

I thought they were going the Mistress of Mellyn (by Victoria Holt) route. 

[Llywela]

I can't get over how tall Betty is now. She should only be about 9 years old (the episode where she was born aired February 2014) - but 9year-olds can be very tall, of course. I should know. My favourite moment here was Betty and Sarah cracking up over the horrible soup they'd made John eat.

John is looking much older, these days.

I actually figured out most of the twists and the killer fairly early on in this one, unusually for me. That poor kid in the furnace!

Edited December 6, 2023 by Llywela

[mellyf]

22 hours ago, MMEButterfly said:

Season 24, 1, The Devil's Work, is back to classic Midsomer for me--a tangle of genetics, Barnaby's family involved, imaginative killings--it's all there. 

I agree. I commented to my husband when it was over that it reminded me of classic MM episodes. Overall, I haven't loved the later seasons - the last couple of years as much, but I thought this was a good one, although I agree with the posters who commented on the horrific murder. (but again...classic Midsomer!)

[laredhead]

Loved the episode, and having it back to what I consider familiar, classic MM.  Settled into the recliner with my cat and a throw and enjoyed 90 minutes of murder and mystery.  

[Prevailing Wind]

23 hours ago, laredhead said:

Loved the episode, and having it back to what I consider familiar, classic MM.  Settled into the recliner with my cat and a throw and enjoyed 90 minutes of murder and mystery.  

That's the best way to watch, cuddling with the cat in the recliner. Does your cat like to be under or over the throw?  My Stella likes to be under any covers.

[MMEButterfly]

3 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

That's the best way to watch, cuddling with the cat in the recliner. Does your cat like to be under or over the throw?  My Stella likes to be under any covers.

My Miss Marple must always be entirely on top of the throw. 

[Llywela]

The recycling of actors and prevalance of doppelgangers in Midsomer never ceases to entertain me. I sat through ep 24.02 going, "Oh look, there's Jones's murderous childhood friend...and he's the killer again, talk about typecast. Hey, that's the woman who got murdered in a tumble drier, back from the dead - but not for long!" 😄

I do enjoy when the writers remember that Winter is an enormous geek, beneath the surface, and lean into that side of him. He dresses down a bit more these days, often shows up in just a suit and tie compared to the three-piece suits he always wore back when he was shiny and new in the job. He still pulls those out, but they are no longer the only thing he wears.

[Prevailing Wind]

8 hours ago, Llywela said:

Hey, that's the woman who got murdered in a tumble drier, back from the dead

She was also in The Killings at Badgers Drift, as the arrested suspect who killed herself in her jail cell.  And I'm still perpetually surprised to see her without her Doc Martin cervical collar.

I love Fleur.

[LisaM]

Mrs. Tishell!

[Maren]

This season wasn't bad but a little hit and miss in the stories. But man, I cannot stand Fleur anymore. I was a little iffy on her because she could be really unnecessarily b#tchy but this season she's an outright bully to Winter. It's bad enough watching Barnaby strong arm Winter into paying for things or doing stupid things cuz he's his "boss" or stealing his food. But Fleur is just outright mocking and belittling him and they keep acting like it's funny and it's not. It's just rude and obnoxious. It's bad enough they have the older male characters do it but there are not that many professional older female characters in TV land, so it's really disappointing to see such a negative portrayal here.

I actually love the recycling of actors. It's fun trying to remember which episode they were previously in lol.

And Betty is actually being allowed to talk now! Wow! Lol. 

[WildPlum]

The most recent episode (the Seeker episode) had the absolute longest "Yes! I did it! And this is why and how I did it!" I have ever seen in a mystery episode.

[Llywela]

I tend to go back and fore on Fleur. On the one hand, she is a fantastic example of an older female character with a successful career and a long, interesting history, someone who not only commands but demands respect, and Annette Badland always gives 100% in any performance.

On the other hand, however, she tends to be increasingly overdone, so to speak. The writers found a comedic schtick that seemed to resonate and then leaned into it a bit too much, pushing her past humour and into parody. Less is usually more, especially with such an overpowering character.

She isn't, of course, the first Midsomer character to start strongly and then suffer from flanderisation as the seasons passed.

[BlackberryJam]

I was really bothered by the dog collar murder. It was just so cruel. 

I love Fleur, but agree they are pushing her towards parody. I think Winter needs a girlfriend. 

[kimaken]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

I was really bothered by the dog collar murder. It was just so cruel.

Indeed it was. On the other hand, Paddy running around and behaving like an irascible dog was pretty funny. I wonder though, how old he's supposed to be? I recall John acquired him in Winter's first case (and Paddy wasn't a puppy then) not too long after Sykes passed away (Betty was a toddler then). I think the show jumped a few years so Betty is now old enough for boarding school--so wouldn't Paddy be a lot older now? Yet he was running around like he was still a young dog.

[Mittengirl]

I was hoping that we would see Winter either adopting the cat lady’s cats or returning them to their families.  
 

Maybe it is because it has been so gray here in Michigan lately, but I was really struck by some of the beautiful scenery in this episode - especially the old guy’s riverfront home with the barge.  I was ready to pack my bags.