S03.E04: Violet

[chitowngirl]

Synopsis:  Sydney gets a new apartment; Marcus finds inspiration.
Drops on Hulu June 27, 2024.

Edited June 26 by chitowngirl

[Irlandesa]

Richie is so sweet with his daughter.  I'm not quite sure what his ex-wife's fiance was trying to accomplish telling Richie about giving him a head's up about a proposal. I forget, were they friends? 

I didn't really get into or the point of Claire last season and this season isn't making me reconsider so far.  I don't understand the purpose of these flashbacks, especially since I'm not sure they connect to the rest of the episode in a truly meaningful way. 

[SoMuchTV]

11 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I didn't really get into or the point of Claire last season and this season isn't making me reconsider so far.  I don't understand the purpose of these flashbacks, especially since I'm not sure they connect to the rest of the episode in a truly meaningful way. 

In this case, my takeaway was that she was there to tell Carmy that story about the patient who laughed because she didn’t feel the pain yet. Or rather, for Carmy to remember her telling it, at a point when it was significant to him. Or maybe I’m reading too much into it. I guess I hadn’t thought as much about her other flashbacks. 

[Irlandesa]

10 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

In this case, my takeaway was that she was there to tell Carmy that story about the patient who laughed because she didn’t feel the pain yet.

I thought about that but it still doesn't make the character meaningful...or at least not to me. 

[txhorns79]

23 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Richie is so sweet with his daughter.  I'm not quite sure what his ex-wife's fiance was trying to accomplish telling Richie about giving him a head's up about a proposal. I forget, were they friends? 

I don't think they were.  I kind of got what he was saying, in that he thought it would have been polite to tell Richie ahead of time about the plan to get engaged, so Richie wouldn't be surprised.  However, he seemed to really struggle to just say that, which made the scene extra awkward.   

[Mindthinkr]

You know the expression about taking time to smell the roses? I liked that Marcus stopped his car to take a picture of the violet. I think it reminded him of his mother. 

[maddie965]

This post was moved to the Tomorrow thread.

Edited June 30 by maddie965

[peeayebee]

On 6/27/2024 at 9:50 PM, txhorns79 said:

I don't think they were.  I kind of got what he was saying, in that he thought it would have been polite to tell Richie ahead of time about the plan to get engaged, so Richie wouldn't be surprised.  However, he seemed to really struggle to just say that, which made the scene extra awkward.   

Richie says to Nat that he knows Frank is the shit, so I guess with that scene of Frank struggling to basically apologize for not asking him first, it shows that Frank is a considerate person always wanting to do the right thing and not hurt anyone.

 

On 6/28/2024 at 5:16 AM, Mindthinkr said:

You know the expression about taking time to smell the roses? I liked that Marcus stopped his car to take a picture of the violet. I think it reminded him of his mother. 

Doh! I missed that that was a violet. I was going to ask what the title of the ep meant. And I can't wait to see what Marcus comes up with for his dessert.

It was very touching to see Marcus turn on the ventilator to hear the beeping. Makes it like his mother is still there. He's such a sweetie.

When Tina was shopping, the grocer said, "Whatever grows together, goes together." That sounds like an important statement, but it also sounds like something any chef would know. I mean, I expect Tina to bring that line into the kitchen, but I wouldn't think it would be news to Carmy. Of course it can also apply to people, which is probably the main meaning here. Just like the zen garden Richie and Nat are discussing.

When Syd ran into the guy from Ever, he said the scallop dish was great but very much NOT Carmy. But this WAS Carmy's dish, right? Wasn't it the one he changed from Joel McHale's dish?

I'm not sure where the thing with the nicotine gum is going. Too much of this gum can be bad for you, right?

 

[possibilities]

Did Syd not sign the partnership agreement yet? If so, that implies she still has doubts, which was reinforced when she talked to the other chef in the subway. But then, she also took the new apartment, which seems to indicate more confidence. I suppose the upshot is ambivalence? She honestly seems a lot healthier and like a better manager than Carmy, but she's also not confident enough to act as though she is, which is the opposite of Carmy, who gets way out over his skis due to arrogance, or maybe just over-compensation. 

Nat is going to have that baby and not be there to manage the restaurant responsibilities at the same time. Do they have a plan for that, at all?

 

[EyewatchTV211]

No comments on Frank being played by Josh Hartnett?

[peeayebee]

When he first appeared, I said to myself that he looked familiar. Though I couldn't bring his name to mind, I did figure out who he looked like, but he looked different enuf to me that I thought I was mistaken.

[possibilities]

Who is he? I definitely didn't recognize him.

[peeayebee]

Josh Hartnett. I don't know if he's known for a movie or show in particular, but I always associate him with the movie 'Pearl Harbor'.

[Racj82]

14 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Who is he? I definitely didn't recognize him.

Josh Harnett. Of a tremendous Black Mirror episode from last year. Black Hawk Down. 30 Days of Night. He came in during the post Scream horror boom of the 90s. Moved away from the cute guy leading man roles and now has found his footing as a seasoned actor just getting work in things he likes. He was one of many in Oppenheimer. The man works but he doesnt seem to be chasing the limelight anymore.

[peeayebee]

Thanks, @Racj82. I've put that Black Mirror ep on my to-watch list.

[chaifan]

On 6/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, txhorns79 said:

I kind of got what he was saying, in that he thought it would have been polite to tell Richie ahead of time about the plan to get engaged, so Richie wouldn't be surprised. 

 

On 6/29/2024 at 12:32 PM, peeayebee said:

so I guess with that scene of Frank struggling to basically apologize for not asking him first, it shows that Frank is a considerate person always wanting to do the right thing and not hurt anyone.

If my almost fiancee went to my ex-husband  for some sort of heads-up/quasi permission before proposing I'd be furious.  OK, maybe if they were brothers or best friends.  But in this situation, hell to the no.  That is treating me like property to be negotiated before transferring ownership.  I think a lot of women these days feel the same way about men asking the father for permission to marry.  Some may think it's quaint or respectful, but the symbolism is awful.  Ritchie doesn't have any right to know about his ex-wife's engagement before she does, and it's her job as the mother of their child to tell him.  It's not like the relationship, or the fact that it's a serious relationship, was unknown to Ritchie.  Any fool could guess "oh, yeah, they'll probably get married someday."

So yeah, I found that whole scene rather stupid. 

 

[peeayebee]

I understand what you're saying and agree as far as a proposal being betw the two people, but I think the show's intent here was to show Frank as being aware of other people and concerned that his actions do not hurt others. It was painting him as a nice guy, probably in contrast to Richie at times. Even if he thought of this before he proposed, Frank might not have talked to Richie about it, but this conversation let Richie see that Frank was thinking about his feelings, acknowledging that this is a hard situation for many exes.

And now I'm thinking of Pete. Super nice guy. Both Sugar and Tiffany found calmer, softer mates after the turmoil of the Berzatto family.

[maddie965]

Yes. Pete is the best. His tenderness on the last episode of the second season left me in tears.

[chaifan]

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

but I think the show's intent here was to show Frank as being aware of other people and concerned that his actions do not hurt others.

I understand what you're saying, but Frank's need to be a nice guy and not hurt Ritchie's feelings doesn't trump Frank's responsibility to his soon-to-be fiancee.  Otherwise, he's hurting Ritchie's ex's feelings (sorry, don't remember her name)  to avoid hurting Ritchie's feelings.  Nope, doesn't fly with me.

 

[Haleth]

I think Frank was giving Richie a heads up because of his daughter.  It’s a big step to go from boyfriend to stepfather and it was sweet of him to let him know his (Frank’s) role in her life was changing. 

[Blakeston]

On 6/29/2024 at 12:32 PM, peeayebee said:

When Syd ran into the guy from Ever, he said the scallop dish was great but very much NOT Carmy. But this WAS Carmy's dish, right? Wasn't it the one he changed from Joel McHale's dish?

That dish from the season premiere was hamachi.

I think Frank's concern was coming from a place of "I don't want you to be blindsided by a major change to your daughter's life," as opposed to any kind of paternalistic "she was your woman so now I must have your blessing" mentality.

If he'd actually revealed the proposal to Richie in advance, that would have been a bad move, because Richie could easily have blabbed (or had an inappropriately dramatic reaction). But I think it was sweet to acknowledge afterwards that the way it was handled could have been hurtful.

[Jordan61]

On 7/1/2024 at 2:44 PM, Haleth said:

I think Frank was giving Richie a heads up because of his daughter.  It’s a big step to go from boyfriend to stepfather and it was sweet of him to let him know his (Frank’s) role in her life was changing. 

This was my take on it, as well.

[thuganomics85]

Josh Hartnett!  Looks like we might be witnessing the beginnings of a Hartnettissance after Oppenheimer.  We now got this appearance, plus he's the lead of a film coming up soon (sure, it's an M. Night Shyamalan one, so who knows how it will actually turn out, but still: not bad!) 

Not quite sure what to make of Frank though.  He mainly came off sincere, but his whole "I should have talked to you before I proposed" bit did seem almost dated on some levels.  But I guess it was possible he was thinking more about how it will effect Richie's daughter instead of actually asking "permission" from the ex.  I wonder if this will all pop back up again?

Definitely think the Chef Adam appearance is him testing the waters about potentially poaching Syd from The Bear.  They are certainly playing up her doubts, plus Carmy's recent behavior hasn't exactly been endearing.  Still, it would mean she would leave a crazy place that she mainly seems to have a handle on for something that could end up being just as insane for all she knows.  We'll see, I guess.

I don't dislike the Carmy/Claire stuff in theory, but it's hard to be invested in it since Claire doesn't really feel like an actual character but just wish fulfillment or the idea of Carmy having something normal in his life.  It's too bad since I do think Molly Gordon is winning in other stuff I've seen her in.

Neil is becoming the MVP of this season so far.

[possibilities]

If dude wanted to make friends (or make peace) for the sake of the daughter, he could have said something along those lines.

Framing it as having to do with the wife/ex-wife, to me feels more like pissing on the wife as a prize to be passed along from man to man, but also showing his dominance over Richie. "I know you still have feelings for her, so I should have thrown it in your face sooner, and made you feel like you had to give a blessing to my happiness even though it makes you feel bad-- I'm so nice!!"

The actoir played it as though he was sincere, but it struck me as textually bullshit.

And Richie took it that way, too-- he went to Sugar after, and said he thought maybe he should bow out of his daughter's life because there's a new dad in town. 

If New Dad wanted to sincerely make Richie feel better, he could have said something more like "You're such a great dad, I know I'll never replace you, but I hope you and I can get a beer sometime, and get to know each other so and we can be a happy family for her, and maybe I can learn from you"

Or, if that's too much, he could have said: "It's great to see you, Richie. Daughter is great, I love the kid and I see how important you are in her life so I hope the two of us can be friends."

Leave the wife/ex-wife out of it, if it's really about the daughter.

 

[buttersister]

Quote

It was very touching to see Marcus turn on the ventilator to hear the beeping.

Took my breath away. No pun intended.

[meep.meep]

I agree about Marcus and the respirator.  Plus Marcus noticing the flower, remembering his mother's love of flowers, and using that as inspiration for a new dessert is genius.

I think Carmy's flashbacks to time with Claire are something similar:  it's calm and quiet and everything in his real life is anything but calm and quiet.

If they bought too much of specialty items and they are changing the menu regularly, why can't Carmy and Sidney work out new dishes to use up the stuff? Real restaurants do that all the time - it's called waste management.

[tkc]

Was it just me, or was anyone else unnerved by the composition of the  Frank/Richie scene? The distance between them and the wall behind Richie just screamed “awkward” to me.. Frank almost but not quite in Richie’s space, but with nowhere for Richie to retreat.

Also, I was so pleased with the story choice of Marcus taking the picture of the violet. As he approached it, I said out loud, “don’t pick it!” It was so right that he left the flower to bloom, and to bless others with its existence.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 6/27/2024 at 11:50 PM, txhorns79 said:

I don't think they were.  I kind of got what he was saying, in that he thought it would have been polite to tell Richie ahead of time about the plan to get engaged, so Richie wouldn't be surprised.

Which to me, would be weird. Telling the ex before even proposing? Surely she has the right to know first.  What if she said no? What if Richie has reacted poorly to the news before she even knew?  Speaking of which, Richie continuing to wear his wedding ring after the divorce seems almost stalkerish to me, as if he's saying "you may think we're done, but I don't."  It also might send mixed messages to his daughter.  Thank goodness he finally took it off.

However, a father "stepping back" from his daughter's life because her mother is marrying a nice self-made guy would only be damaging to the child, who would feel rejected.

Finally, with his schedule, I don't see how Richie can watch his daughter any day but the restaurant's dark day, Sunday.  Although he's cartainly busy working every other night, I don't understand why he has to come to work so early, except to fight with Carmy. When do the servers, whom he supervises, show up for 5:30 service?  1 or 2 pm? He's certainly not reviewing the evolving menu with them early in the day. And it doesn't take that long to set all the tables. Does the front-of-house manager need to be there as early as the chefs? Do chefs even all come in 9 hours before the doors open?

On 6/29/2024 at 2:53 PM, possibilities said:

Nat is going to have that baby and not be there to manage the restaurant responsibilities at the same time. Do they have a plan for that, at all?

I expect to see Nat back in her office 2 weeks after having the baby with a playpen, trying to nurse without Fak barging in. And guess what the baby's 1st word will be? Not "chef".

Also, Syd should not have been encouraged to use Pete as her lawyer regarding the partnership agreement, not for her protection, but because if any conflict arises later, it would be presumed by outside fact finders that Pete was protecting the interests of his wife and brother-in-law,  not Syd's, which would not be helpful to them.

[paramitch]

On 6/30/2024 at 8:00 AM, Racj82 said:

Josh Harnett. Of a tremendous Black Mirror episode from last year. Black Hawk Down. 30 Days of Night. He came in during the post Scream horror boom of the 90s. Moved away from the cute guy leading man roles and now has found his footing as a seasoned actor just getting work in things he likes. He was one of many in Oppenheimer. The man works but he doesnt seem to be chasing the limelight anymore.

I consider the Hartnettaissance to have begun with his absolutely superb turn in "Penny Dreadful." He was just fantastic there and made me completely reevaluate him as an actor. He's really interesting and seems to be so much more comfortable being character actor who happens to look like a leading man.

On 7/1/2024 at 6:46 AM, chaifan said:

 

If my almost fiancee went to my ex-husband  for some sort of heads-up/quasi permission before proposing I'd be furious.  OK, maybe if they were brothers or best friends.  But in this situation, hell to the no.  That is treating me like property to be negotiated before transferring ownership.  I think a lot of women these days feel the same way about men asking the father for permission to marry.  Some may think it's quaint or respectful, but the symbolism is awful.  Ritchie doesn't have any right to know about his ex-wife's engagement before she does, and it's her job as the mother of their child to tell him.  It's not like the relationship, or the fact that it's a serious relationship, was unknown to Ritchie.  Any fool could guess "oh, yeah, they'll probably get married someday."

So yeah, I found that whole scene rather stupid. 

I never saw anything in that scene to imply permission was being asked, just that Frank felt bad that Richie was blindsided by the news -- which he visibly was.

On 7/3/2024 at 7:44 PM, Blakeston said:

I think Frank's concern was coming from a place of "I don't want you to be blindsided by a major change to your daughter's life," as opposed to any kind of paternalistic "she was your woman so now I must have your blessing" mentality.

If he'd actually revealed the proposal to Richie in advance, that would have been a bad move, because Richie could easily have blabbed (or had an inappropriately dramatic reaction). But I think it was sweet to acknowledge afterwards that the way it was handled could have been hurtful.

This was my take as well -- that Frank was reaching out in a nice way to say he wished he had talked to Richie about it as a major figure in his daughter's life, and who would now become part of their family. I definitely didn't see it as some kind of sexist or paternalistic thing. I just thought the entire scene was to show that Frank is a sensitive, kind person who un

On 7/10/2024 at 11:08 AM, meep.meep said:

I agree about Marcus and the respirator.  Plus Marcus noticing the flower, remembering his mother's love of flowers, and using that as inspiration for a new dessert is genius.

I think Carmy's flashbacks to time with Claire are something similar:  it's calm and quiet and everything in his real life is anything but calm and quiet.

I've never had issues with Claire as a character and still find it strange that people do -- I think you're exactly right, and that she represents this kind of escape for him -- a miraculous center of calmness and acceptance and love that he ultimately cannot allow himself to accept. 

Edited September 15 by paramitch
missed quote