S08.15: Point of No Return

[Dirtybubble]

Quote

As the final weekend of the summer arrives the housemates throw a doomsday-themed party.  Ciara wonders if West is capable of commitment.  Lindsay and Carl reach a breaking point.

 

[politichick]

Did Carl just compare his support of Lindsay's abandonment issues to her alleged lack of support for his unambitious, non-working ass?

[whydoievencare]

8 minutes ago, politichick said:

Did Carl just compare his support of Lindsay's abandonment issues to her alleged lack of support for his unambitious, non-working ass?

He sure did!

[FlyingEgret]

Carl & Lindsay: let's go fight in the kitchen; but first let's put on brand new matching Shellback Tavern baseball hats. It doesnt feel like it exactly, but overall the matching hats makes the whole thing look staged to me. Influencers all the way...

[bosawks]

Carl needs to be honest with himself and just move to Florida and find himself a widow with no kids who can keep him in the style he feels he deserves.

[Thumper]

This is a painful episode.

Do you think this scene with Carl and Lindsay in the apartment was re-enacted??  Can’t imagine it in real time.  For that matter, having to re-enact it.  Yikes.

[esco1822]

Why aren’t Carl and Lindsey having these conversations during couples therapy? They clearly need a neutral mediator. 

[esco1822]

So Carl literally tells Paige that he feels like he blindsided Lindsay but before that, and since, he has fed into the narrative that she was not blindsided and he doesn’t understand why she is saying that. He continues to gaslight, it’s amazing (and uncomfortable) to watch. 

[politichick]

Loved seeing all of the girls at the end comforting/supporting Lindsay at the end even though they are not all especially close, but also keeping it real. Like Paige said, "You can do better. Let him go!"

And Lindsay got an Ariana-type sympathy reduction in rent so she can keep the fab apartment.

Carl sucks!

[snarts]

Hell has frozen over, Carl made me side with Lindsay. I don't care for either of them BUT the way he handled this was some pure shit meant to humilate her & frame her as the sole issue.

Most importantly, you don't have this conversation on camera when she's sitting on her couch in a wife beater tank with nips on display! 

The final scene with the girls supporting her was nice (take note, Lala & Scheana). And, of course I laughed at Paige's "this is what happens when you don't invite me to your wedding!" 

Reunion preview - Danielle's hair makes her look like George Washington. 

[ZettaK]

I'm shocked Lindsey was right. Carl wanted her to be a Stepford wife. He said at the Hamptons he didn't want his fiance, or wife to question, or coach him! She should tell him he is awesome and a rockstar! I assume always, and constantly! Good for Lindsey keeping her calm. 

And let's repeat it. Carl was aware of Lindsey's personality. She said they were going to therapy since November, and the last weekend at the Hamptons was the Labor Day weekend. That was the end of season filming. During the discussion at the apartment in NY later on he even accused her of wanting him to relapse! That's when the cameras picked back up (common to several Bravo shows lately- see Vanderpump Rules, the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, the Real Rousewives of Orange County, the Real Housewives of Atlanta, The Valley). Social media posts claimed there was another woman! And he had the cameras ready at the apartment. Carl is no victim.

Jesse likes his women small, and he is still a f...boy.

That was not West's party. It was a Bravo party (like all of them).

Edited May 31 by ZettaK

[dancingdreamer]

Was Carl maybe seeing  and feeling  differently toward  Lindsay,  because  he was sober. She accused  him a few times , of not being  sober,  and I have no idea of the timeline. I do think  Carl was afraid  of her. They are probably  two nice people, just not together,  as they bring  out the worst  in one another. 

The girls got closer  to Lindsay  throughout  the summer,  but I'm glad Amanda said they were actually  fighting longer than that. Carl did her a favor,  she can find someone  that makes her happy. I'd like to have seen more of the others.

 

[Marley]

Carl sucks. He broke up with her on camera on purpose to humiliate her. I think he gets off on shit like that. He needs to just be honest and come out of the closet already.

West seemed coked up in bed with Ciara. I’m kind of over him he seems annoying and try hard now.

Kyle meh. He still annoys me. Amanda and Kyle should be giving no one relationship advice lol.

[esco1822]

4 hours ago, dancingdreamer said:

Was Carl maybe seeing  and feeling  differently toward  Lindsay,  because  he was sober. She accused  him a few times , of not being  sober,  and I have no idea of the timeline.

My theory on this is that she questioned him because his behavior shifted so much and so quickly to the person we are all now seeing, that he was behaving exactly like “Cocaine Carl.” Not that she doubted he could stay sober or wanted him to relapse, just that he hasn’t acted like that since he was on drugs/alcohol. 

[dancingdreamer]

1 minute ago, esco1822 said:

My theory on this is that she questioned him because his behavior shifted so much and so quickly to the person we are all now seeing, that he was behaving exactly like “Cocaine Carl.” Not that she doubted he could stay sober or wanted him to relapse, just that he hasn’t acted like that since he was on drugs/alcohol. 

But how could  she tell, she was often quite drunk when she accused him. 

[b2H]

I maintain, as I have for several weeks now, that Carl had no business being in a serious relationship so early in his recovery.  As he progresses through, he is going to evolve and have different needs.

Before everyone jumps on me, I was involved for ten years with someone who was thirty years into recovery.  He strung me along for eight of those years while we lived together but would never make the commitment.

Much of what I saw in Carl, I saw in Bob.  I imagine, like Bob, he saw a safe place in Lindsey and she just was the wrong person, being a bit of an addict to alcohol herself, to be so deeply involved with.

All the rest of it, folks, was typical Bravo drama.  The two of them got a hefty paycheck.  And for those that looked closely during the girls’ moment in the last season, Lindsey was unable to squeeze a tear out of her eye.  The accusations of ‘for the camera’ can be made for both of them,  not just Carl.

For Lindsey, she clearly cannot be alone as, in the reunion preview, she is already with someone else.  Side eye.

Edited May 31 by b2H

[hottesthw]

Ehhhh Lindsey’s been an awful friend/partner in every season of the show. Whatever she gets back now she should just consider karma, maybe reflect on what she did wrong (according to her partner), and try to do better next time. I have no sympathy for her. 

I admittedly have not watched this season completely because I find this senior citizen version of Jersey Shore ridiculous, but I did catch a few weeks ago with them talking about his “job” and he straight up told her he needed her to be more supportive or whatever else he was blabbering last night. And she was like a militant parent berating their child. At that point I didn’t know what his doubt was ever about. Get out now while you can! As someone who gave up her legit PR career to be an “influencer” she really shouldn’t be giving employment advice. 

42 minutes ago, b2H said:

For Lindsey, she clearly cannot be alone as, in the reunion preview, she is already with someone else.  Side eye.

I laughed at how she comes out in the revealing sexy dress all smiles. It is almost like Bravo is producing all these break ups and revenge storylines for ratings. What are the chances some of their top couples all broke up this season on their respective shows. Seems fishy to me. 

[Lassus]

10 hours ago, snarts said:

Hell has frozen over, Carl made me side with Lindsay.

Yeah, this is the prevailing attitude over here as well.  

It was amazing, it looked in the first episode like it would be a full Lindsey villain season, and whether planned or not, the whole thing shifted convincingly 180 degrees by the end.

 

5 hours ago, Marley said:

West seemed coked up in bed with Ciara. I’m kind of over him he seems annoying and try hard now.

Yes, the whole thing is highly weird.  Ciara has always seemed super smart and very cool, not to mention stunningly hot as shit.  But her boys have absolutely defined "lame".

Lindsay is also super-hot with terrible boys, but at least she has insanity to back up her shitty choices.

Edited May 31 by Lassus

[esco1822]

1 hour ago, b2H said:

For Lindsey, she clearly cannot be alone as, in the reunion preview, she is already with someone else.  Side eye.

You have to remember that the reunion was just done a week or so ago and they stopped filming in early September. So we are talking about 8 months between their breakup and DATING someone else. If it was getting engaged quickly, I might give it the side-eye but not 8 months; that's totally reasonable. 

[Katie W]

They definitely should not be together but I could not believe that rehearsed speech Carl was giving during that discussion.  The list of job he mentioned Lindsay didn't support? ACTOR, sober bar (which he has zero experience in), CIGARS? You are FORTY and these are what you feel are real career prospects? $20,000 spent on helping you find your career path and this is all you can come up with? 

Everything Carl said Lindsay "thought" about him are his own thoughts. He has zero self-esteem and he's terrified because deep-down he thinks those "thoughts" are true. The man needs to see counseling and do more of the internal work.  It's not enough to just be sober. 

[kacesq]

If anything, this episode showed those two had no business getting married. I’ve actually liked Lindsay longer than most and I think she and Carl really went into this with the best of intentions. But as time wore on, they’re just fundamentally incompatible.

LOL at Danielle “I would never say I told you so but…yeah.”

As much as I think the break up was for the best, I was devastated for Lindsay. 

[Mahamid Frauded Me]

I have never been a Lindsay or Carl fan, in the beginning of the season, I thought she was awful to Carl, later on I honed in on his gaslighting. Lindsey was right, he knew her for eight years, and she has been this shitty all along, so why did he think he could change her? He clearly planned this break-up for a while and I am not sure for what other purpose other than humiliating her on camera. I agree with other posters that I certainly would not take relationship advice from Amanda. 

[Vivigirl10]

Wow. What an episode.

It absolutely pains me to say it but I give Lindsay kudos for remaining calm and level-headed through that break-up conversation.  That actually does seem to show some growth in her?  Or was she just so over it by then, she was just throwing her hands up at the whole thing? 

54 minutes ago, Mahamid Frauded Me said:

Lindsey was right, he knew her for eight years, and she has been this shitty all along, so why did he think he could change her?

Really, everything she did say made perfect sense.  

But then she goes and presents this totally rewritten revisionist history of how she's been in love with Carl for eight years and was just "waiting for him"!!  Yeah, Linds, that's exactly what you were doing.  Excuse me while I go barf several times.  If dumbass Austen had gotten down on one knee, she'd say the same of him.  I don't know why this "I'm marrying my best friend" narrative was so damned important to her.

I love the friendship between Ciara, Paige and Amanda.  It feels very real.  That party looked like one of the few that was actually fun and that everyone really was enjoying themselves. 

If West has a second season it will be interesting to see the general opinion of him. I think the tide is already turning. It seemed telling that he was going on and on about all his "best friends" coming to the party and almost the entire group appeared to be female. Girl "best friends" can be extremely territorial when you bring a dating interest on the scene.  Obviously, I have no idea if any of that happened with these girls but it seems kind of an odd choice to start with. (I will note that Paige, Amanda and Ciara all said they were super likeable).  Not sure if I'm expressing my sentiment clearly!

[IntrovertRed]

7 hours ago, hottesthw said:

Ehhhh Lindsey’s been an awful friend/partner in every season of the show. Whatever she gets back now she should just consider karma, maybe reflect on what she did wrong (according to her partner), and try to do better next time. I have no sympathy for her. 

I admittedly have not watched this season completely because I find this senior citizen version of Jersey Shore ridiculous, but I did catch a few weeks ago with them talking about his “job” and he straight up told her he needed her to be more supportive or whatever else he was blabbering last night. And she was like a militant parent berating their child. At that point I didn’t know what his doubt was ever about. Get out now while you can! As someone who gave up her legit PR career to be an “influencer” she really shouldn’t be giving employment advice. 

You should have watched the season, because Lindsay WAS supporting him. You could tell that therapy was helping her because she was responding so much better to him that she did with prior partners. No matter what Lindsay said to Carl, he took issue with. Usually I'm a believer in karma, but Lindsay didn't do anything to deserve the shitty way he acted towards her this summer. There was absolutely no need to break up with her on camera, it only made him look bad.  He's a chickenshit wuss.

7 hours ago, Lassus said:

It was amazing, it looked in the first episode like it would be a full Lindsey villain season, and whether planned or not, the whole thing shifted convincingly 180 degrees by the end.

Right? I've been suspecting for awhile now that Carl was acting or saying shit in the car to make her think something was up. We never saw any footage of them in the cars for these fights, but it does make me wonder.

Amanda should NOT be giving ANYONE advice until she divorces that man baby that treats her like shit. And now that the toxic couple #1 is no longer together (thank god), toxic couple #2 (Kyle/Amanda) will now be front and center next season. Maybe Amanda will wake the fuck up and realize her relationship is just as toxic (if not worse!) as Carl/Lindsay's was and end it too. I doubt it'll ever happen, but one can always hope.

LOVED LOVED LOVED the girls supporting Lindsay. I really hope that they will continue to all be supportive of one another (minus Danielle) this summer. It's a much more enjoyable show when they get along. 

6 hours ago, Katie W said:

They definitely should not be together but I could not believe that rehearsed speech Carl was giving during that discussion.  The list of job he mentioned Lindsay didn't support? ACTOR, sober bar (which he has zero experience in), CIGARS? You are FORTY and these are what you feel are real career prospects? $20,000 spent on helping you find your career path and this is all you can come up with? 

Everything Carl said Lindsay "thought" about him are his own thoughts. He has zero self-esteem and he's terrified because deep-down he thinks those "thoughts" are true. The man needs to see counseling and do more of the internal work.  It's not enough to just be sober. 

I had to rewind that part to make sure I heard it correctly. CIGARS?  What now? 

Carl needs to not return to Summer House for at least one summer. He just seems so lost and he really needs to focus on himself. Frankly, he seemed that way prior to being sober, but now it's just more apparent and it is so out of place for an environment like this and not fun to watch quite honestly (mean, but true).

I wonder if West / Jesse will get a villian edit next season like sometimes happens. It seems like we didn't always see the real West due to producer manipulation. Either way, Ciara deserves so much better than Bravo fuckboys. 

[heatherchandler]

2 minutes ago, IntrovertRed said:

You should have watched the season, because Lindsay WAS supporting him. You could tell that therapy was helping her because she was responding so much better to him that she did with prior partners.

Except for what he pointed out during the fight, that she called him “bitch boy,” “mamas boy,” etc.  I believe that.  She didn’t deny it.  So she presented something to the world that was not true, just like he said.

Lindsey sucks!  Carl is not in a good headspace and she keeps pushing along.

And I agree with Amanda, none of this was “out of the blue,” we ALL know they’ve been fighting for months.  They heard from the landlord because of the fighting?  But Lindsey is gobsmacked?  Ok sure.  She’s such a liar.

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, IntrovertRed said:

Carl needs to not return to Summer House for at least one summer. He just seems so lost and he really needs to focus on himself. Frankly, he seemed that way prior to being sober, but now it's just more apparent and it is so out of place for an environment like this and not fun to watch quite honestly (mean, but true).

He needs the money so he'll be back. Otherwise, he'd have to get a job.

1 hour ago, heatherchandler said:

Except for what he pointed out during the fight, that she called him “bitch boy,” “mamas boy,” etc.

Where's the lie lol?

Amanda going on and on about how brave Carl was and how she 'could never do that,' girl we know. You're too scared to divorce the man you clearly don't even like who called you a fucking bitch on national TV. She probably relates to Carl's weak ass. 

Lindsey point blank said, 'so you are saying you don't wanna get married,' and Carl's all "I never said that,' and then 3 days later he calls Production to film him telling her he doesn't wanna get married. GIRL lol. And his reaction after to express concerns to the producers that he'll be 'cancelled' was just further proof to me that he went into this season knowing he didn't wanna get married but hoping he could get Lindsay to freak out enough to be the one to call it off so he would come off looking like the poor little victim.

Paige's reaction to all of it was so great. 'This is what you get for not inviting me to the wedding,' was the best line of the season. And telling Lindsay she's better off and to move on. This was really Paige's season. I didn't like her before but she's my fave now.

Edited May 31 by peachmangosteen

[FozzyBear]

Just now catching up on this episode. Wow Bravo is working over time to try and spin Carl as being victimized here. Bravo keeps trying to do this and keeps failing. 
Breaking up was the absolute right thing to do and I really disagree with Lindsey that fighting as much as they do is normal. However my jaw dropped when Carl listed all his own problems and then says I don’t have personal problems, I have a relationship problem. Good luck with that once you don’t have Lindsay to blame for being a terrible person anymore. My ex did that to me and then tried to crawl back to me when he still wasn’t a rock star achieving all his dreams. Turns out his allergy to hard work wasn’t my fault after all.

[FozzyBear]

Just now catching up on this episode. Wow Bravo is working over time to try and spin Carl as being victimized here. Bravo keeps trying to do this and keeps failing. 
Breaking up was the absolute right thing to do and I really disagree with Lindsey that fighting as much as they do is normal. However my jaw dropped when Carl listed all his own problems and then says I don’t have personal problems, I have a relationship problem. Good luck with that once you don’t have Lindsay to blame for being a terrible person anymore. My ex did that to me and then tried to crawl back to me when he still wasn’t a rock star achieving all his dreams. Turns out his allergy to hard work wasn’t my fault after all.

Way back in S2, I was talking about the Carl-Stephen-Lauren debacle. I said that Carl uses people as emotional way stations (and sometimes physical ones) and then once he’s gotten what he needs he turns nasty on them until they leave or give him enough justification for him to leave without looking like the bad guy. That’s what I see here. When Carl was getting sober he wanted Lindsey fighting his battles and being by his side. Now that he’s 2 years in, and he has run thorough his “figuring stuff out” time, he doesn’t want that so he’s turned on Lindsey. He did the same thing to Kyle. When he needed LoverBoy he was all about it but once he got what he wanted he became petulant and lazy until Kyle forced a confrontation. Now that he needs a job, he’s all about Lover Boy again. My prediction is once he feels like he’s proved everyone who said he can’t keep a job wrong, he’ll turn on Kyle again as a reason to quit.

And I’m not saying that Lindsey, Kyle, Stephen, and Lauren aren’t impossible people who did plenty wrong all on their own, but this is a pattern with Carl. Sober or not, Carl shows up for himself in relationships and not for the other person.

[red12]

Since I think Carl v Lindsey has been thoroughly litigated and I don't have any new points for now, I am moving on to another curiosity I have.

Why does Ciara make such strange choices in men? I cannot figure out what my read is on why she chooses the guys she does and why it seems she holds on when these unworthy choices treat her poorly and fail to meet her wants or needs publically. 

Also, what's the deal with Gabby? Will she ever have a storyline? How did she get into the cast?

Edited June 3 by red12

[politichick]

1 hour ago, red12 said:

Since I think Carl v Lindsey has been thoroughly litigated and I don't have any new points for now, I am moving on to another curiosity I have.

Why does Ciara make such strange choices in men? I cannot figure out what my read is on why she chooses the guys she does and why it seems she holds on when these unworthy choices treat her poorly and fail to meet her wants or needs publically. 

Also, what's the deal with Gabby? Will she ever have a storyline? How did she get into the cast?

I totally agree. I could see the attraction to Luke, but the rest? No, ma'am. She was actually attracted to Kory, had a thing with Austen (yuck!), and then this thing with sloppy West? I totally don't get it.

As for Gabby, she's likely never going to bring much drama because she comes from an upper-middle class family and would never do anything to make her parents feel ashamed of her.

[FozzyBear]

48 minutes ago, politichick said:

 

As for Gabby, she's likely never going to bring much drama because she comes from an upper-middle class family and would never do anything to make her parents feel ashamed of her.

You just hit on why I could never be on a reality show, and maybe why I like Gabby so much. I could just never face my parents again. I can’t imagine ever showing my face at Thanksgiving even after some of the mild shenanigans these people get into. But having a Kyle/Amanda level fight on camera and then just showing up to Sunday dinner? I could never!

[bosawks]

I like Gabby and I hope she stays.  BRAVO has a tendency to shoot themselves in the foot by casting for all lead characters which can be a real tough dynamic to watch.

You need some Ruth Husseys to counterbalance your Katherine Hepburns.

Edited June 4 by bosawks

[sugarbaker design]

2 hours ago, bosawks said:

You need some Ruth Husseys to counterbalance you Katherine Hepburns.

The Philadelphia Story is one of my favorite movies, this post gave me the smiles.

[red12]

2 hours ago, bosawks said:

I like Gabby and I hope she stays.  BRAVO has a tendency to shoot themselves in the foot by casting for all lead characters which can be a real tough dynamic to watch.

You need some Ruth Husseys to counterbalance you Katherine Hepburns.

I had no intention of suggesting Gabby should not be there. I still have no idea what her stories will be though. Is she a support for Lindsey like Danielle used to be? I don't know her function and thought maybe someone else did. I could be interested in learning more but there's nothing presented.

[heatherchandler]

41 minutes ago, red12 said:

I had no intention of suggesting Gabby should not be there. I still have no idea what her stories will be though. Is she a support for Lindsey like Danielle used to be? I don't know her function and thought maybe someone else did. I could be interested in learning more but there's nothing presented.

I have no idea what she brings to the table.  She’s just there.