S03.E04: Old Friends

[Orcinus orca]

54 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I admit to skimming a lot of the posts but I have not seen anyone give credit to the best thing about this episode - Queen Charlotte's wig with the swans a-swimming.  How were they powered?

Check this out.

[mrsbagnet]

I will forever refer to this episode as Penny Got Fingered.

I know we're not supposed to agree with Portia in the scene where she's telling Penelope to marry Lord Debling, but her line about security being romantic was spot on.

[Ohiopirate02]

25 minutes ago, mrsbagnet said:

I will forever refer to this episode as Penny Got Fingered.

I know we're not supposed to agree with Portia in the scene where she's telling Penelope to marry Lord Debling, but her line about security being romantic was spot on.

Portia knows firsthand what can happen to a lady who makes a bad match.  She's been scheming these last few seasons in order to overcome her husband gambling away their daughters' futures.  The last thing she wants is to put any of daughters into the position she is currently in.  Marrying Lord Debling would secure Penelope's future and all of the Featheringtons' futures if one of the husbands does something stupid or if Portia's forgery gets discovered.

[mrsbagnet]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Marrying Lord Debling would secure Penelope's future and all of the Featheringtons' futures if one of the husbands does something stupid or if Portia's forgery gets discovered.

Agreed. Unfortunately for Portia, securing her mother and sisters' futures isn't really a selling point for Penelope.

[Orcinus orca]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Portia knows firsthand what can happen to a lady who makes a bad match.

Pen should know as well, she's not stupid and could certainly see how things went off the rails when her father bit the dust.

Debling is a perfect solution.  Pen is left alone for years but has a secure place in society.  She can carry on with Colin and as long as she doesn't get pregnant there wouldn't be consequences since divorce was pretty much unheard of back them.  Debling seems to be a kind man who is also practical and realistic.

But this is Bridgerton so love is always the end game.

[Llywela]

On 5/25/2024 at 1:59 AM, PRgal said:

Just a weird question:  Since young women are basically kept ignorant about reproduction, what did mothers tell their daughters when they got their first period?

They said, "It is part of being a woman, it will happen every month, this is how you deal with it, get used to it."

[PatsyandEddie]

That’s what some mothers were still telling their daughters well into the 1960’s. 👋

[PRgal]

14 minutes ago, PatsyandEddie said:

That’s what some mothers were still telling their daughters well into the 1960’s. 👋

No clue what my grandmother told my mom but my mom told me the truth (but only showed me pads because that's what she used).  And got me a book on puberty.  The rest I learned at school.  My grandmother thought tampons were for "married ladies" so I didn't use them until she moved out.  Typical of Asian elders, she'd snoop through my room.  Good thing she didn't read English well considering all those cover teasers on Seventeen and YM in the 90s!

Back to the episode:  Since young women were kept so ignorant, how would Penelope know what was, you know, going on during the carriage scene?

[PatsyandEddie]

I think that Pen thought it was quite delightful and she knew that Colin was quite experienced with the ladies. She loved plus trusted him. 

[pasdetrois]

On 5/23/2024 at 12:00 PM, Orcinus orca said:

I have so underwhelmed that it has been sort of background viewing rather than an event. I will probably watch the second half but definitely not in June.

Same here. The locations and costumes are gorgeous, but the acting is mediocre. The script and scenarios are predictable and this season seems formulaic. I feel like I know exactly what will happen in each episode.

I can't stand Penelope's self-loathing pity party, which is written into practically every scene she's in. What a drip. Also, there are too many gasps and heavings-of-bosom instead of acting. And what's with the Rita Hayworth hair-do? And the heavy makeup. Not period appropriate and looks awful.

Edited June 2 by pasdetrois

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, PatsyandEddie said:

I think that Pen thought it was quite delightful and she knew that Colin was quite experienced with the ladies. She loved plus trusted him. 

Evidently she has never heard sayings like "keep God in your heart and hoses on" and "a man don't buy a cow if he can have milk for free".

[oliviabenson]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Evidently she has never heard sayings like "keep God in your heart and hoses on" and "a man don't buy a cow if he can have milk for free".

The way Colin was looking at pennys chest he was certainly thinking about stuff lol.

[Aulty]

I only half-heartedly watched this show (I think all the fawning about Simon was shallow (and that RJP isn't a mediocre actor) and that Anthony was an arsehole until the final episode of series 2) but I was somewhat looking forward to Pen and Colin (I'm a hypocrite, because Colin has me breaking out my fan). I was a bit disappointed that the story in the first 4 episode seemed so rushed and without much romantic build-up.
I went an got the audiobook (the books are not for me, but kudos to Shonda for realising their potential as a TV show). The time frame up to the coach scene is fairly narrow and a lot of the romantic story relies on internal monologues. Still there are a couple of scenes that should have been in the show (first meeting, Barkley square) or more fleshed out (Colin finding Pen reading his diary). Now I am curious how far they will take it in the second half of the season (IYKYK).

I like the fashion design, but there is too much chiffon. Some of Pen's dresses looked like glorified Shein purchases (I have something very similar to her coach dress). But I love her hair.

[Conotocarious]

23 hours ago, Orcinus orca said:

Pen should know as well, she's not stupid and could certainly see how things went off the rails when her father bit the dust.

Debling is a perfect solution.  Pen is left alone for years but has a secure place in society.  She can carry on with Colin and as long as she doesn't get pregnant there wouldn't be consequences since divorce was pretty much unheard of back them.  Debling seems to be a kind man who is also practical and realistic.

But this is Bridgerton so love is always the end game.

Lord Debling wanted to do the Northwest Passage, which at the time was an impossible crossing and likely would have resulted in his disappearance and death. One might say that’s even better, with Pen now being free and a wealthy widow but the estate would pass to the nearest living male relative, and unless Pen had a son by Debling, which is obviously no guarantee, her place is not secure, nor might she be free to remarry especially if Debling just disappears. Who knows how long it would take for someone to be declared legally dead then?

I don’t think its as good a choice as it seems at first at all.

[Ohiopirate02]

7 minutes ago, Conotocarious said:

Lord Debling wanted to do the Northwest Passage, which at the time was an impossible crossing and likely would have resulted in his disappearance and death. One might say that’s even better, with Pen now being free and a wealthy widow but the estate would pass to the nearest living male relative, and unless Pen had a son by Debling, which is obviously no guarantee, her place is not secure, nor might she be free to remarry especially if Debling just disappears. Who knows how long it would take for someone to be declared legally dead then?

I don’t think its as good a choice as it seems at first at all.

Pen's place might be secure, it all depends on her marriage settlement with Debling, and I don't think Debling is the type of guy who would screw over his bride.  He would make sure there was a dower house for Pen and enough money for her to live in the manner of which befit the widow of a man of his station.  And yes, it would take years for him to be declared legally dead.  Time that would protect Pen or any other lady making her still the wife not the widow.  Someone like Pen who wants to find love would find this a hardship, the not being able to move on; but, another lady would be just fine.  

[shapeshifter]

19 minutes ago, Conotocarious said:

Lord Debling wanted to do the Northwest Passage, which at the time was an impossible crossing and likely would have resulted in his disappearance and death. One might say that’s even better, with Pen now being free and a wealthy widow but the estate would pass to the nearest living male relative, and unless Pen had a son by Debling, which is obviously no guarantee, her place is not secure, nor might she be free to remarry especially if Debling just disappears. Who knows how long it would take for someone to be declared legally dead then?

I don’t think its as good a choice as it seems at first at all.

6 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Pen's place might be secure, it all depends on her marriage settlement with Debling, and I don't think Debling is the type of guy who would screw over his bride.  He would make sure there was a dower house for Pen and enough money for her to live in the manner of which befit the widow of a man of his station.  And yes, it would take years for him to be declared legally dead.  Time that would protect Pen or any other lady making her still the wife not the widow.  Someone like Pen who wants to find love would find this a hardship, the not being able to move on; but, another lady would be just fine.  

Maybe they can use the film/video from this season to do an affordable, AI-generated, Choose Your Own Adventure version showing dialog covering these issues with a different outcome.

 

[andromeda331]

On 5/28/2024 at 9:06 AM, mrsbagnet said:

Agreed. Unfortunately for Portia, securing her mother and sisters' futures isn't really a selling point for Penelope.

Maybe Penelope could arrange for her mother and sisters the Fanny Dashwood solution.

[Ohiopirate02]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Maybe Penelope could arrange for her mother and sisters the Fanny Dashwood solution.

Something tells me that Portia has a bit more backbone than the Second Mrs. Henry Dashwood.  No one is going to get Portia to settle for the occasional side of beef.

[quarks]

But only conceive of how comfortable they will be! 

They'll have no carriage, no horses, hardly any servants and will keep no company!

I'm certain that you had no thought of Penelope giving them money. 

[andromeda331]

27 minutes ago, quarks said:

But only conceive of how comfortable they will be! 

They'll have no carriage, no horses, hardly any servants and will keep no company!

I'm certain that you had no thought of Penelope giving them money. 

Of course not.

[mik6363]

Thoughts on Benedict and Lady Tilly Arnold. I like the thought of Tilly being his love interest instead of Sophie. The run away princess from the ball has been overplayed by the multi-Cinderella remakes. Could be a cool Twist if Tilly was Sophie.

[Chicago Redshirt]

^@mik6363, this sounds like something spoilery about Benedict's eventual romance, so ixnay.

[MirabelMadrigal]

I'm starting to get nervous about where Shonda is going to take part 2! At first I was worried that Colin would reject Penelope once he finds out about LW, but then I started worrying that maybe Penelope will turn away from Colin once he finds out (in a Kelly Taylor 90210 "I choose me" type of move). I'm annoyed that Eloise is being so evil about LW (though I admittedly do not remember a lot of season 1 and what LW was scheming back in the day). Why isn't Eloise's character more "women supporting women"? I like how Penelope seems to be trying to explain to Eloise why she is motivated to continue LW-being LW gives her some power in a male-dominated society. Whatever happens, I cannot wait for part 2!!! Hoping for a happy resolution.

[mledawn]

8 hours ago, MirabelMadrigal said:

Why isn't Eloise's character more "women supporting women"? I like how Penelope seems to be trying to explain to Eloise why she is motivated to continue LW-being LW gives her some power in a male-dominated society. Whatever happens, I cannot wait for part 2!!! Hoping for a happy resolution.

Eloise feels betrayed by what Penelope/Whistledown did to expose her and the printer boy, but also that her best friend has been lying to her for years. We can see Eloise appearing to thaw a bit in the first four eps of this season, but her anger is rejuvenated with Colin and Penelope's marriage announcement.

I can understand Eloise's standpoint completely but I love her relationship with Penelope so I am invested in that resolution as much as the Colin/Penelope plotline.

[Jane Tuesday]

Pen wouldn't allow Colin to marry Marina without knowing the truth.

But she's okay if he marries *her* without knowing the truth?

Team Eloise on this one. It has nothing to do with feminism, and everything to do with protecting her brother from a lifetime of unhappiness. 

[Orcinus orca]

6 minutes ago, Jane Tuesday said:

Pen wouldn't allow Colin to marry Marina without knowing the truth.

But she's okay if he marries *her* without knowing the truth?

 

Respectfully, that's comparing apples to oranges.  Colin would have been tied for life with a pair of twins that were not his children.  Hardly the same thing.

[Jane Tuesday]

A huge lie is a huge lie. Am I to believe Pen wouldn't lie to him about other stuff? Because I don't. In both cases, he'd be marrying somebody who was perfectly happy keeping him in the dark about literally the most important thing in their lives. 

And to be clear, I was totally on board with her outing Marina.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Jane Tuesday said:

A huge lie is a huge lie. Am I to believe Pen wouldn't lie to him about other stuff? Because I don't. In both cases, he'd be marrying somebody who was perfectly happy keeping him in the dark about literally the most important thing in their lives. 

And to be clear, I was totally on board with her outing Marina.

I agree. You shouldn't start a marriage keeping a secret. 

[RachelKM]

14 hours ago, Jane Tuesday said:

A huge lie is a huge lie. Am I to believe Pen wouldn't lie to him about other stuff? Because I don't. In both cases, he'd be marrying somebody who was perfectly happy keeping him in the dark about literally the most important thing in their lives. 

And to be clear, I was totally on board with her outing Marina.

I'm not going to say I think it is okay for Pen not to tell Colin.  But not all secrets are the same.

The Marina lie was something fundamental to their relationship on two levels. The first is obvious, that she was pregnant with another man's children with whom he'd be raising forever.  The second was that she didn't love him.  Marina told him she loved him and couldn't wait to be married when, in truth, she merely liked him and needed a father for her children.  Those are secrets/lies that go to the heart of their relationship.

Pen's secret is really big and is a major part of her life and could blow up in her face (not to mention blowback on Colin as her husband).  So she should tell him. But it is not equivalent.  

Edited June 10 by RachelKM
Typos.... as always.

[quarks]

It's also one thing for Pen to keep this a secret from her sisters and her mother; it's another thing entirely to try to keep this a secret from someone who is actually paying attention to her.

Tell Colin, Pen!

[Kirsty]

I don't think I've ever seen an aristocratic love interest on screen who looks like Victor Alli, the same way I had never watched a romance with a heroine who looks like Simone Ashley until last season. That's sad to admit! It seems pretty basic. So I appreciate that Shonda Rhimes is changing the game with her diverse casting policy. I have so much admiration for her.

This was easily the best episode of the first four. My only real criticism is that some scenes were cut off abruptly in a slightly jarring way, but I believe that complaint is made about every season of this show.

I loved getting a look inside Cressida's "welcoming" home where she is coming under severe pressure to find a husband. I was actually rooting for her in this episode, and I'm enjoying her friendship with Eloise. I hope she and Eloise can stay friends beyond this season. I'm afraid that she's either going to ditch Eloise once she finds a husband, or else Eloise is going to drop her once Eloise and Penelope eventually reunite.

Penelope looked lovely. And when she and Colin laughed together at the end of their carriage ride, it was the nicest moment they've shared all season.

This episode also provided the most insight we've ever had into Colin Bridgerton. That's not saying much, but I want to acknowledge it because it may be all the character work Colin gets for the rest of the show!

Edited June 10 by Kirsty

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 6/9/2024 at 11:43 AM, Orcinus orca said:

Respectfully, that's comparing apples to oranges.  Colin would have been tied for life with a pair of twins that were not his children.  Hardly the same thing.

People's mileage will vary but I'd submit weighing the two lies, Marina's is more justifiable on at least a few grounds:

1. The truth of Marina's situation was less likely to come out than the truth of Pen's identity. The chances of Colin or anyone outside a handful of Featheringtons/their staff finding out that Marina's children weren't his are relatively small. They have no incentive to tell anyone else. By contrast, the chances of Pen's being outed as LW eventually are pretty large. There's a fair number of people who know already, only two of whom can for sure be trusted (Eloise and the modiste). The Queen and much of society are trying to figure out who LW is, and eventually Pen will slip up or they will get lucky. (Indeed, it is something you have to handwave that the Queen didn't just figure out what printer LW uses and do a stakeout of that or browbeat/bribe the printer into giving up LW.).

2. Colin got a bunch of perks out of the Marina lie: engagement to the hottest deb of the season with whom he was completely smitten. There's no upside to the lie about Pen's true identity that I can see, and at least some downsides -- he may have to deal with members of angry families who have been the target of LW, all the way up to the Queen if that comes out.

3. Learning the truth would have changed less in the case of Marina vs LW.  IMO Colin would 100 percent have married Marina had she told him the truth upfront; I believe he explicitly said as much. Even if the truth somehow did become publicly known beyond the Bridgertons and Featheringtons, I'm sure that it could be finessed and while people might titter behind their back, most people in polite society would not hold it against Colin. They might even have sympathy for him or think that what he did was noble. I tend to doubt that Colin would have been engaged with Pen if she had said upfront "BTW, I'm the one who publicly humiliated you, Marina and your family for years." I guess given genre conventions he would eventually come around. But if the ton came to know Pen is LW, there would likely be pretty dire consequences.

4. A lie coming from a person he just met with no deeper connection beyond "he's got a pleasant personality and isn't half-bad to look at, plus some change in his pocket" should hit less hard than a lie from someone who he has known for years, is very close to, and who claims to love him with the fires of true love. 

5. The rationale behind the Marina's lie was due to desperation to avoid a situation largely out of her control that could have left her and her child homeless and poverty-stricken. Whereas, the rationale behind Pen's lie is that she enjoyed the power of being LW and wanted to continue doing it largely out of self-gratification, even though she didn't have to start being LW and she could have stopped at any time. 

6. Marina's lie is also to protect her innocent unborn child. Pen's lie is largely to protect Pen (although I guess there's the possibility of some of the other Featheringtons getting splash damage, but she hasn't shown the least bit of affection for any of them except her mom, and with her, it seems to me to be mostly approval she seeks.

Edited June 14 by Chicago Redshirt

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

5. The rationale behind the Marina's lie was due to desperation to avoid a situation largely out of her control that could have left her and her child homeless and poverty-stricken. Whereas, the rationale behind Pen's lie is that she enjoyed the power of being LW and wanted to continue doing it largely out of self-gratification, even though she didn't have to start being LW and she could have stopped at any time. 

6. Marina's lie is also to protect her innocent unborn child. Pen's lie is largely to protect Pen (although I guess there's the possibility of some of the other Featheringtons getting splash damage, but she hasn't shown the least bit of affection for any of them except her mom, and with her, it seems to me to be mostly approval she seeks.

It's just because of 5 and 6 I can't help but feel sympathy towards Marina. 

Also, I agree that a strong motives for Pen is power she has as Lady W, but also a strong motive is that writing is self-realization. 

She could have "saved" Colin by telling about Marina's pregnancy to Violet or Eloise, but she she was angry to Marina for ridiculing her for loving Colin, so she chose to shame her in public as Lady W which would have ruined her and her child (nobody could guess that her lover's brother would rescue her).

[RachelKM]

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

People's mileage will vary but I'd submit weighing the two lies, Marina's is more justifiable on at least a few grounds:

Taking my response to the Lady Whistledown Friend or Foe thread since this has more to do with Marina and the effects of her secrets.