S05.E05: Mirrors

[paulvdb]

Quote

Captain Burnham and Book journey into extradimensional space in search of the next clue to the location of the Progenitors' power. Meanwhile, Rayner navigates his first mission in command of the U.S.S. Discovery, and Culber opens up to Tilly.

Premiere date: April 25, 2024

[AnimeMania]

[marinw]

The Crew of the ISS Enterprise becoming refuges in the Primeverse is a cool idea. But I did not need another tedious backstory.

Edited April 26 by marinw

[Chit Chat]

51 minutes ago, marinw said:

But I did not need another tedious backstory.

Amen to that!  Feelings, blah, blah, feelings....  Again, just get to the damn point!

And of course, Michael saves the day!! 

[Stardancer Supreme]

I know some "fans" are moaning about this being a "woo-woo bullshyt" episode (TM Reno). Honestly I was liking the slow down in the treasure hunt.

The editing of this episode is the only thing I could really find fault with. That side story with Culber and Tilly should have gone into another episode; ideally with Stamets finally noticing something is off with his husband.

I like the way Rayner is integrating with Discovery and her crew. Yes, Michael would have taken the time to study Rayner's race and she got to explain why she must take on the dangerous missions to her XO. 

So L'ak is Breen. He got an Erigah for cavorting with a lesser being. If that was going to happen, why didn't L'ak just kill his uncle? Unless the uncle did die... They should have made the reasoning for a Blood bounty a little clearer.

I wonder if Michael and Book will get back together? 

I am glad that Moll shut down that "we's family!" trip Book was trying to place on her. Just out of curiosity, was Cleaveland Booker IV's death the reason he never got back to Moll and her mother? 

The ISS Enterprise. This is why I don't watch trailers and sneak peeks; I totally geeked out when I saw her!

Is this the first Mirror episode where we don't run into any Mirror Counterparts? 

[RobertDeSneero]

55 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

So L'ak is Breen. He got an Erigah for cavorting with a lesser being. If that was going to happen, why didn't L'ak just kill his uncle? Unless the uncle did die... They should have made the reasoning for a Blood bounty a little clearer.

Erigah wasn't declared by the Primarch until L'ak killed the other Breen.  There would not have been a bounty if he just killed Moll.  Clearly, the reason was the betrayal.

She asked why he didn't kill his uncle.  L'ak answered, "He raised me.". Perhaps this means that he values family and will eventually convince Moll to find kinship with Book.

[DrBriCa]

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

That side story with Culber and Tilly should have gone into another episode; ideally with Stamets finally noticing something is off with his husband.

Yeah, I feel like this would've been a much better storyline for Culber back in Season 3, which was much closer to his 'resurrection.' He only really started talking to Stamets again just before the battle with Control, and then Stamets was put in a coma after his injuries. I think both of them should've been figuring out rebuilding their own relationship and as well as their life goals instead of the writers jumpstarting them into a family unit with Adira (and Gray).

[thuganomics85]

Oh, Book!  He seemed prepared for everything but Moll basically being like "Yo, he may have been a good mentor to you but he SUCKED as a father, so I could give a shit about our relationship."  I guess that is a common blindspot, to be fair.  Plus, if I were a betting man, this will all probably end with them forming some kind of bond by the end of this.

So, long story short, Moll and L'ak are basically on the run from a Blood contract because the latter is Breen and their whole relationship is looked down upon by everyone else.  Plus, killing those soldiers and shooting his uncle probably didn't help things either.  Can't really blame him on that though, because Eve Harlow would be worth going against your douchebag of an uncle!  But that is why they are so gung-ho to get the Progenitors' powers for themselves.

With Michael away (with Book), Rayner.... actually played really well with the Discovery crew.  Still kept his natural sternness and firm grip on the proceedings, but was still more open with them and seemed to find a better way to get ideas out of them without being a jerk about it.  He might fit in, after-all!  Callum Keith Renne is doing good work here.

The stuff with Tilly and Culber felt random out and out of place.

Second episode in a row without checking in on Saru.  I'm sure he'll be back at some point, but I'm wondering if this direction (him serving on the station, Rayner as the new number one, etc.) was always planned or if Doug Jones needed a lighter schedule for this final season? 

[millennium]

This was worse than a Hallmark Channel movie.   From Book's trite and sappy log entry to all the declarations of undying love.  Tonight, a very special episode of "Soulmates in Space."

Oh, and it just had to be an Enterprise in the wormhole, didn't it?  Not a Yorktown or a Farragut or a Potemkin, nope of all the ships in the Mirror Universe it had to be an Enterprise, because cheap feels, right?   "That was my brother's station."  Sniff.

Has anyone noticed just how bad Burnham's dialogue is?   "It's a mystery and it's up to us to solve it!" or whatever the fuck she said.

No Saru = a small mercy.

I predict that in years to come, Discovery will be widely regarded as the Highlander II of the Star Trek franchise (or even worse, Highlander: The Source).

Edited April 26 by millennium

[marinw]

How did Michael know that the locket was the actual clue? And why has there been no contact between the Prime and Mirror Universe for centuries?

[Ceindreadh]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

How did Michael know that the locket was the actual clue? And why has there been no contact between the Prime and Mirror Universe for centuries?

She didn't and it wasn't.

Michael put something into the locket so that when Moll and L'ak scanned it, they'd see that it came from their universe and not the mirror one and would think that it was the actual clue. 

The real clue was the one that the pair had found in sickbay. 

So I guess this episode with their backstory is meant to make us feel sorry for the poor little star crossed lovers who are just trying to get the big bad Breen off their back.  Feck that, I don't want half an episode in the final season devoted to the big bad of the season.  I'd much rather an episode showing Owosekun and Detmer bringing the ISS Enterprise back to base.

(and if that is just an excuse to have them not appear in the next few episodes, I'm going to really annoyed)

[Tachi Rocinante]

Pardon me for being light on my lore, but how did they not know he was Breen?

is he the first one ever to go helmetless or something?

[Affogato]

3 minutes ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

Pardon me for being light on my lore, but how did they not know he was Breen?

is he the first one ever to go helmetless or something?

I think, possibly?, but I could have missed it. They spent a lot of time on that backstory, given there are established characters that need attention. 

I read an interview that said that the people on the Discovery would end up in unexpected places at the end of this season. I wonder if Michael will go off with Book to do something, leaving Discovery to her new number one? I also wonder if Culber and Stamets will move to the Academy show with Tilly. Will Tilly end up captaining a teaching ship for the academy? Anyway, I assume everyone will go to Saru’s wedding….

 

[Chit Chat]

12 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

That side story with Culber and Tilly should have gone into another episode; ideally with Stamets finally noticing something is off with his husband.

Or just skip it altogether! It's those kinds of storylines that bog this show down.  I'm sticking with the show just to see how it ends, but I won't miss it once it's done.  And please don't have a Captain say "let's fly" ever again!  I mean, "let's fly" as we're getting tractor-beamed out of a wormhole? (I think that's when she said it).  Seriously?  How about, 'get us the eff out of here!'  

[Stardancer Supreme]

49 minutes ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

Pardon me for being light on my lore, but how did they not know he was Breen?

is he the first one ever to go helmetless or something?

 

This is the first time we the audience has ever seen a Breen without his helmet. We don't know what Breen women look like.

[Tachi Rocinante]

14 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

This is the first time we the audience has ever seen a Breen without his helmet. We don't know what Breen women look like.

OK, I get that, but nobody in Starfleet ever has either?

[marinw]

2 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

She didn't and it wasn't.

Michael put something into the locket so that when Moll and L'ak scanned it, they'd see that it came from their universe and not the mirror one and would think that it was the actual clue. 

 

Shows you how closely I was paying attention! LOL.

[Chit Chat]

2 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

This is the first time we the audience has ever seen a Breen without his helmet. We don't know what Breen women look like.

The Breen look better with their helmets left on!  The women probably don't look much better.  Rather lizard-looking to me.  

[MissLucas]

Well, it's not just seeing a Breen without helmet. Don't forget those suckers have two faces and the one L'ak is wearing is apparently deemed some sort of taboo. So, even if outsiders had every seen a Breen face  it would have been the LED version.

[Affogato]

I was hoping the Breen would look like dogs. 

[millennium]

6 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

Or just skip it altogether! It's those kinds of storylines that bog this show down. 

Culber and Stamets, Adira and Gray, Tilly and her insecurities, Saru and his issues, Burnham and Booker ... they all suck.   I'd rather watch a show about a starship crewed by King Moonracer and the inhabitants of the Island of Misfit Toys.

[dwmarch]

11 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

meant to make us feel sorry for the poor little star crossed lovers who are just trying to get the big bad Breen off their back.

...which would have been easier if they weren't making out in the shuttlebay in full view of anyone who walked by. This is the era of personal transporters, would it be that hard to find some other place to go and snuggle?

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

I was hoping the Breen would look like dogs. 

In the novels, the Breen are actually several different species and they wear the helmets as a sort of Harrison Bergeron-style equality measure. Since this show has stolen from the novels before (there is a DS9 novel called "Control" about Section 31's rogue AI called Control) I am surprised they didn't steal this idea as well. But since we have only seen two related Breen with helmets off, it's possible there are still other flavors of Breen out there.

I noticed the dedication plaque for the ISS Enterprise had a TNG-era stardate on it. I guess the Mirror Universe could use a different format for stardates but if not, that one had too many digits.

It is also weird that the doors on the ISS Enterprise have the pattern of isolinear optical chip circuitry on them. Are these 23rd Century isolinear optical chips, so damn big that they also double as doors?

[Affogato]

9 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

...which would have been easier if they weren't making out in the shuttlebay in full view of anyone who walked by. This is the era of personal transporters, would it be that hard to find some other place to go and snuggle?

In the novels, the Breen are actually several different species and they wear the helmets as a sort of Harrison Bergeron-style equality measure. Since this show has stolen from the novels before (there is a DS9 novel called "Control" about Section 31's rogue AI called Control) I am surprised they didn't steal this idea as well. But since we have only seen two related Breen with helmets off, it's possible there are still other flavors of Breen out there.

I noticed the dedication plaque for the ISS Enterprise had a TNG-era stardate on it. I guess the Mirror Universe could use a different format for stardates but if not, that one had too many digits.

It is also weird that the doors on the ISS Enterprise have the pattern of isolinear optical chip circuitry on them. Are these 23rd Century isolinear optical chips, so damn big that they also double as doors?

Interesting about the Breen. The shape of the helmets remind me of dogs but that is an interesting twist. I wonder if it is possible mirror Spock will have made a mark in this future. 

[Leia1979]

12 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

I'd much rather an episode showing Owosekun and Detmer bringing the ISS Enterprise back to base.

They seem to have barely been in this season, so I'd gladly take that. Did the show not have enough budget for half of the cast this season? Because there are other characters I'd vote off the ship instead. I want more of an ensemble show, not the Michael and Booker show.

[Jodithgrace]

One of the issues I have with this show is one that goes all the way back to TOS, and that’s the captain going on away missions. Oh…that planet, or wormhole, or whatever, is full of unknown dangers, let’s send the captain! Makes no sense! At least Kirk brought expendable red shirts along with him, but Burnham just goes alone with Book into a pulsating wormhole type thing. Rayner was right; the captain belongs on the bridge, but then how could Michael save the day? 

I kind of like the shiny green Breen faces. Did we always know about the two face thing? 

Oh, so each puzzle piece teaches a moral lesson…gag!
 

 

[RobertDeSneero]

18 hours ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

is he the first one ever to go helmetless or something?

As far as I know, no one had seen what the Breen look like outside of their refrigeration suits in the DS9 era and lived to tell about it and I think it was implied they would kill someone who did, so it is likely they choose to be secretive about their looks all the way to the show's current era.

There's precedent for not knowing what another species looks like, with the Federation not knowing what Romulans looked like until TOS.

 

[Affogato]

8 hours ago, Leia1979 said:

They seem to have barely been in this season, so I'd gladly take that. Did the show not have enough budget for half of the cast this season? Because there are other characters I'd vote off the ship instead. I want more of an ensemble show, not the Michael and Booker show.

That exactly is the issue, I think. People want TNG and they are getting something more like TOS but with a woman in the lead. Also I don’t think TNG was as much of an ensemble show as they think.

[MissLucas]

Prime Cat's Log, 7th life, day 2260

• Still on quest for cookie cutter. Underlings thinking it provides answers for everything or is horrible weapon, huh?
• Next stop: cosmic butthole.
• Underlings decide cosmic butthole needs exploring. Of course.
• First underling's (still sighing inwards but paws getting sore from all the typing) mate decides she and first underling best suited for exploring cosmic butthole.
• What is everyone else doing on this ship?
• First underling's mate made effort to study grumpy underling's culture.
• Only a couple of days after I put an entry in my log that nobody had done that so far. Coincidence?
• Has she read my log???
• Will add this to her long list of insolences but first must find better hiding place for log.
• First underling and mate talking about mirror universe - wonder if mirror Grudge has to deal with equal amounts of nonsense from underlings.
• Lost kitten finally found - first underling surprised that kitten does not share fuzzy feelings about ancestor who left her fending for her own.
• And then he compares me to mate! 
• Moans about getting bitten when he forgets to feed me.
• Clearly does not understand concept of justified response to neglect.
• Holy Sekhmet and Bastet! Lost kitten is also entangled in tiring mopey mating ritual!
• Had some inkling of respect for kitten, all gone now.
• Grumpy new underling is offering treats to his underlings - I knew I liked him.
• More mopey mating ritual - will it ever stop?
• So knowing grumpy underling's culture and history saved first underling and mate from cosmic butthole - and who gave her the idea to do so??? Huh??
• Lost kitten lost again, good riddance. There's already enough mopeyness on this vessel as it is.
• Apparently healer underling suffering from side-effects of weird Trill mind-melding experiment. Surprise!
• Citrus mash sounds delicious - off to investigate.

Edited April 28 by MissLucas

[tennisgurl]

Any episode that starts with Grudge is going to get a few bonus points from me, she was even kind enough to grace us with some purrs. 

Its nice to get some follow up with the mirror universe Enterprise, even if it felt a bit random, like someone in the writers room just realized that they never said what happened to them and wanted to get that in there before finishing. 

Its cool actually seeing the Breen without their helmets, although I would have liked to know more about their culture and structure. I guess that's why the Founders liked them more than most species, they're almost liquid too. I am not all that invested in the tragic romance of Moll and L'ak, they're pretty sorry final antagonists. I guess maybe the Breen are going to be the final antagonists, but as of now they're our main threat apparently. They have kind of a personal connection, but are really just two random small time crooks, even with the backstory, they aren't exactly setting up for an epic battle. 

I'm sure that, even if their first chat went poorly, Book and Moll will connect at the last minute with a big speech about love and the right thing and they'll have a change of heart. 

[fastiller]

On 4/27/2024 at 2:02 PM, MissLucas said:

Prime Cat's Log, 7th life, day 2260

 ...

Very funny. This reminds me of Person of Interest's dog's (Bear) tweets.  He's a Belgian Malinois, so they're in Dutch.

[millennium]

On 4/26/2024 at 9:25 PM, dwmarch said:

I noticed the dedication plaque for the ISS Enterprise had a TNG-era stardate on it. I guess the Mirror Universe could use a different format for stardates but if not, that one had too many digits.

If it were TNG-era, shouldn't the Enterprise have a letter in the registration number?  The original TNG Enterprise was NCC-1701-D.

I looked for a letter but didn't see one, suggesting it was the original ISS Enterprise NCC-1701.  But how can that be?  The original series established that events in the Mirror Universe closely parallel those in the prime universe, thus the ISS Enterprise NCC-1701 should have gone down over the Genesis planet.

On 4/27/2024 at 6:12 AM, Affogato said:

That exactly is the issue, I think. People want TNG and they are getting something more like TOS but with a woman in the lead.

It has never occurred to me that Discovery is anything like TOS, regardless of who is in the lead. 

Edited May 1 by millennium

[paulvdb]

I think the comparison to TOS and TNG refers mostly to the focus on a smaller number of main characters. I never really watched TOS but based on what I read about it it seems to have primarily focused on Kirk, Spock and McCoy. While some characters on TNG got more stories and screen time than others, I felt that on TNG the supporting cast got more screen time and stories of their own compared to Discovery where we barely got to know most of the bridge crew. We only really got to know Michael, Saru, Tilly, Stamets and Culber.

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, paulvdb said:

I think the comparison to TOS and TNG refers mostly to the focus on a smaller number of main characters. I never really watched TOS but based on what I read about it it seems to have primarily focused on Kirk, Spock and McCoy. While some characters on TNG got more stories and screen time than others, I felt that on TNG the supporting cast got more screen time and stories of their own compared to Discovery where we barely got to know most of the bridge crew. We only really got to know Michael, Saru, Tilly, Stamets and Culber.

And it is Michael’s show. Tos is Kirk’s show. Which is why when we also get to know another character on Discovery, it is Book. 
 

it is her five year journey. 

Edited May 1 by Affogato

[baldryanr]

On 5/1/2024 at 3:38 AM, paulvdb said:

I think the comparison to TOS and TNG refers mostly to the focus on a smaller number of main characters. I never really watched TOS but based on what I read about it it seems to have primarily focused on Kirk, Spock and McCoy. While some characters on TNG got more stories and screen time than others, I felt that on TNG the supporting cast got more screen time and stories of their own compared to Discovery where we barely got to know most of the bridge crew. We only really got to know Michael, Saru, Tilly, Stamets and Culber.

Yeah - of the various series before Disco, only DS9 did a good job of having a true ensemble.  The rest clearly prioritized certain characters (Kirk, Spock McCoy, Picard, Data, Janeway, Seven) over others. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

So Book decided it was up to him to save Moll from the wrong path she was on. I don't know who has the bigger ego, him or Burnham.

The ISS Enterprise! Yeah, baby!

Even Book knows Burnham's catch phrase is lame.

On 5/1/2024 at 4:03 AM, Affogato said:

And it is Michael’s show. Tos is Kirk’s show. Which is why when we also get to know another character on Discovery, it is Book. 
 

it is her five year journey. 

But maybe it shouldn't have been. I've never felt SM-G was right for the role of a starship captain. It has seemed to me many unfortunate writing choices were made to make Burnham look simultaneously smarter, stronger, and more feminine than anyone in her cohort. Not that femininity is the antithesis of strength or intelligence, but I think the people producing this show seemed to try to make her too perfect in all those attributes. Instead of being admirably self-confident, she just comes across to me as obnoxiously overconfident but extremely lucky.

[marinw]

30 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Instead of being admirably self-confident, she just comes across to me as obnoxiously overconfident but extremely lucky.

Michael is the ultimate Mary Sue

[Affogato]

10 minutes ago, marinw said:

Michael is the ultimate Mary Sue

She really isn’t.  If anyone on the Discovery qualifies it is Tilly. 

[marinw]

28 minutes ago, Affogato said:

If anyone on the Discovery qualifies it is Tilly. 

Fair point.