S01.E05: Broken to the Fist

[paulvdb]

Quote

Blackthorne and Mariko struggle to contain the secret that could get them both killed. Yabushige searches for the spy who has betrayed his intentions to Lord Toranaga.

Premiere date: March 19, 2024

[mledawn]

I know the majority of people watching this miniseries haven't read the books but I can't fathom how. There is so much nuance that isn't being shown, so much backstory they don't have time to show. Even with the fantastic sets and quality actors (for some reason, Cosmo isn't really doing much for me as Blackthorne - but there also doesn't seem a lot for him to do other than alternating raving and not raving) it seems like something is missing. Maybe I'll feel differently if I binge it later vs watching week-to-week.

One of my favourite parts of the book is when Blackthorne realises that HE has killed the gardener so I am glad that part was left in. It was an interesting follow-up to Mariko explaining to Blackthorne that Fuji was honoured by her community with silence about her father's swords.

The scenes with Buntaro and Blackthorne having the sake battle were also good, if a bit over the top (out of necessity).

We see a bit of Yabu the leader in this episode when he confronts Omi about "returning" the cannon army to Yabu. I think it'd be helpful to see more Yabu the leader, and less bumbling Yabu.

Lady Ochiba at the end declaring herself in charge was a nice way to end the episode.

 

 

[Raja]

35 minutes ago, mledawn said:

I know the majority of people watching this miniseries haven't read the books but I can't fathom how. There is so much nuance that isn't being shown, so much backstory they don't have time to show. Even with the fantastic sets and quality actors (for some reason, Cosmo isn't really doing much for me as Blackthorne - but there also doesn't seem a lot for him to do other than alternating raving and not raving) it seems like something is missing. Maybe I'll feel differently if I binge it later vs watching week-to-week.

There is the general argument that if your show requires homework its not working, I know some of the real history this time around and ironically  letting the bird rot to prepare a proper English meal is one of the few scenes that I remember from 1980.

In this case Blackthorne didn't explain why, or at least how I remember when Richard Chamberlain did. But the follow on dinner with the stew was new to me. so there you go they were keeping partial kosher. That Blackthorne is learning that his word is actual law, especially when his words are those with a child's understanding of the language and culture was t tough nut.

I figured Buntaro for a big family since Lady Mariko survived the rest of her clan being hunted down but missed that he was the uncle of Lady Fuji the favored granddaughter of Lord Toranaga's trusted old ally.

I was surprised at the speed of events, the battlefield was being cleaned up and Lord Toranaga's guard army was already marching to the scene with Jozen's head being sent to Osaka. So he might as well use Lord Omi, at least he is ambitious and cautious when he thinks for himself unlike young Yoshii. Dig in they are sure to come and I have the advantage here.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

So from the previouslies, we confirmed that the Taiko required five regents for any vote. I still don't think Toranaga has as much time as he thinks he does, but that huge army suggests he's hedging. We're seeing that the regents are already throwing out names to find someone that will stick. 

Good job for all of you that called 'no body' on Mariko's husband! Though, really, really lucky. 

I still don't think it was that bad for the son to wipe out Jozen with the cannon. It just seems like that all the regents and Toranaga just don't want to make the first move. I was wrong in saying the regents wouldn't find out about Jozen so soon though. Still doesn't change anything. 

I felt a little bad for Blackthorne wanting to prepare the stew, and none of them even gave it a shot. I thought Fuji might try. 

I knew the dinner was going to be a pissing contest, but I liked that they included the slurping of the noodles. That was always so much fun. Of course it turned into a drinking contest. I get on Blackthorne's case, but I don't think he thought it was going to lead to Mariko getting beaten. I don't think it's his fault. The pheasant is his fault though. 

I'll also give him some credit that his grasp of the language is rudimentary, but there seems to be some effort there. It's not easy. 

 

 

Edited March 20 by DoctorAtomic

[AimingforYoko]

I didn't see why everyone was so down on Blackthorne's pheasant stew. Everyone knows to defer to the English on matters of cuisine.

[Raja]

13 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

I didn't see why everyone was so down on Blackthorne's pheasant stew. Everyone knows to defer to the English on matters of cuisine.

It wasn't the pheasant, that never made it to the stew pot because of the stench of fermenting the bird caused. It was the rabbit  stew that was avoided.

It was interesting that this is one episode after the natto when Blackthorne, the adventurer tried a dish many Japanese avoid. With multi hour episodes for a week back in 1980's series I wonder how close the two scenes came one after another?   Many cultures consider all of the rodent family no different than eating the brown rats. Something I have only seen done during the first season of Survivor as they cut the our contestants might starve to death from playing this game tease on their following seasons

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm not sure what the Heir's mother was going for with the 'you answer to me now' at the end. The Taiko left clear rules about how there's five regents until the Heir comes of age. Unless the Heir suddenly is singing Peter Brady. He's still what? 11? We know how it's going to end, but mom is way overplaying this hand and just doesn't have the intelligence she thinks she does. Or does she think the regents' collective armies will unite behind the Heir? 

11 minutes ago, Raja said:

It was interesting that this is one episode after the natto when Blackthorne, the adventurer tried a dish many Japanese avoid.

That's why I tought Fuji might have given it a shot. I think it was a little much. The stew had chunks of food you could still pick up with the chopsticks. It wasn't like he was grilling spare ribs. Certainly not worse than eel by any stretch. 

[peridot]

I was afraid the actual spy would kill the gardener to frame him, but the actual cause of his death was horrible.

Why on earth did Anjin hang a rotting animal outside his home?  I couldn't believe the carelessness of his words about what would happen if someone touched it.

Mariko's husband is an animal.  I couldn't believe he shot at his wife twice.  It was again due to Anjin's recklessness.  I really hope he grows up in the upcoming episodes.

That earthquake was something else!  I'm really enjoying this series.

[Raja]

10 minutes ago, peridot said:

Why on earth did Anjin hang a rotting animal outside his home?  I couldn't believe the carelessness of his words about what would happen if someone touched it.

That is the way of English chefs. Blackthorne was so looking forward to a reminder of home and sharing it with his house. His staff however are sure that they have been sentenced to serve the Anglo barbarian. Maybe it went on a bit too long 😉 due to the weather that he misjudged the time needed for preparation before cooking..

To someone used to speaking figuratively and by use of stories to have your every word be taken literally would be a shock. 

[Tom Holmberg]

10 hours ago, peridot said:

Why on earth did Anjin hang a rotting animal outside his home?  I couldn't believe the carelessness of his words about what would happen if someone touched it.

https://honest-food.net/on-hanging-pheasants-2/

 

[LoveIsJoy]

Thanks for the explanation about the rotting bird.  I’m not Japanese, and I was just as confused and taking him literally.  I could hardly concentrate on the rest of the episode because I couldn’t understand why he just didn’t have the bird cooked when he received it.  Or why he kept shouting “you die!” if someone removed it.  You could see the confusion and fear on his household member’s faces.  It was just so odd.

I kept thinking there was going to be some kind of strategic reveal about why he was attracting flies and making a stench.  But no.  It was really for a stew.

When he finally realizes , “OMG, I killed the gardener,” my first thought was, “no kidding Captain Obvious.”   He seems dumb and smart simultaneously.

Perhaps I should have read the book first.  Blackthorne’s character isn’t doing it for me.  I can’t imagine why Mariko would be attracted to him. Maybe I just don’t like his acting.  Maybe it’s the script.  I’ll keep trying to hang in there because I like the rest of the cast very much, the cinematography, and the general story.

[Raja]

37 minutes ago, Tom Holmberg said:

https://honest-food.net/on-hanging-pheasants-2/

 

You would think that as a senior naval officer Blackthorne would have inspected a ship's galley or two in his years of service. But the actual food preparation looks like book knowledge and this was his first practical exercise of applying it. And he didn’t have a Chief Petty Officer to keep the gentleman out of too much trouble.

And that's the other reason Anjin wants his crew's survivors back 

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Tom Holmberg said:

https://honest-food.net/on-hanging-pheasants-2/

 

Thanks.

The article suggests that 50° Fahrenheit is the optimal temperature yet the pheasant was covered with flies, which suggests the temperature was significantly higher. Moreover Blackthorne said there would be a "terrible stench" yet the author here mentioned more than once that there's no offensive smell.

And did he have to hang the damn thing so close to his front door?

Blackthorne also mentioned his father used to poach game from a nearby estate. I don't know what the penalty was at the time -- in the 18th century you could be executed or sent on a slow boat to America -- but hanging evidence of your crime by your front door seems unwise. I hope Blackthorne's father was more discreet.

[Tom Holmberg]

55 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The article suggests that 50° Fahrenheit is the optimal temperature yet the pheasant was covered with flies, which suggests the temperature was significantly higher.

There was snow on the ground, so it was probably colder than 50 degrees.  The flies probably are for dramatic purposes.

[aghst]

14 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm not sure what the Heir's mother was going for with the 'you answer to me now' at the end. The Taiko left clear rules about how there's five regents until the Heir comes of age. Unless the Heir suddenly is singing Peter Brady. He's still what? 11? We know how it's going to end, but mom is way overplaying this hand and just doesn't have the intelligence she thinks she does. Or does she think the regents' collective armies will unite behind the Heir? 

I'm guessing this is still a very patriarchal society.  No women being Taikos, Shoguns or Regents.  And the Heir is already coronated as the next Taiko because he's a boy.

So why would Lady Ochiba think she can wield power or make Ishido jump because she tells him to?

2 hours ago, LoveIsJoy said:

 I can’t imagine why Mariko would be attracted to him. Maybe I just don’t like his acting.  Maybe it’s the script.  I’ll keep trying to hang in there because I like the rest of the cast very much, the cinematography, and the general story.

Have you seen Buntaro?

Apparently he did her a favor since her family was disgraced but now she tortures her by not letting her commit seppuku.

Not that Europeans had more enlightened views on male-female relationships at the time.  When Blackthorne says Mariko is not Buntaro's property, well she really is and back in Europe in the early 17th century, women were still kind of married off as chattel, weren't they?

I don't recall the moment when Mariko first felt attracted to him.  It was before she snuck on him bathing in episode 4.  Something he said seemed to do it, even though as a Catholic, she's suppose to see him as the enemy.

[Jack Shaftoe]

That was an acting masterclass from Moeka Hoshi (Fuji) and to a lesser extent Anna Sawai (Mariko). The plot was less impressive but c'est la vie. Gotta feel bad for Fuji and Mariko being stuck between Mr. Brutal Idiot (Buntaro) and Mr. Loud Idiot (Blackthorne).

Wasn't the heir's mother (Ochiba) released by Toranaga even before he and Mr. Loud Idiot escape Osaka? Why is she only now showing up is Osaka? Why is she acting like she can command Ishido in this extremely misogynistic society? I am well aware that women could and did wield a lot of power in societies where formal leadership roles were reserved for men but usually this required more tact and cunning than yelling.

So Mariko's father killed the equivalent of Oda Nobunaga?

"We can order Toranaga's execution but not anything else because he resigned" still makes no sense whatsoever.

Buntaro is totally working for Ishido now, or at least I hope so, because a bunch of ronin showing up on the waterfront at night, fighting their way through a small army just to save him is the kind of twist a cartoon would be ashamed of.

Edited March 20 by Jack Shaftoe

[DoctorAtomic]

3 hours ago, LoveIsJoy said:

I can’t imagine why Mariko would be attracted to him.

She saw him starkers at the hot springs. Maybe he's packing. 

33 minutes ago, aghst said:

And the Heir is already coronated as the next Taiko because he's a boy.

Taiko means 'retired shogun' or something like that. The boy is heir to the shogunate when he comes of age. It doesn't *look* like he's of age, so I have no idea where she suddenly thinks she's calling shots. 

35 minutes ago, aghst said:

Not that Europeans had more enlightened views on male-female relationships at the time.  When Blackthorne says Mariko is not Buntaro's property, well she really is and back in Europe in the early 17th century, women were still kind of married off as chattel, weren't they?

I think he actually said that wives *were* property in both societies, but Blackthorne styles himself as a more chivalrous husband in that he doesn't beat women or shoot arrows at them. 

[Raja]

51 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

 

So Mariko's father killed the equivalent of Oda Nobunaga?

 

Yes you are onto the history that the fiction was built upon 

39 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

 

Taiko means 'retired shogun' or something like that. The boy is heir to the shogunate when he comes of age. It doesn't *look* like he's of age, so I have no idea where she suddenly thinks she's calling shots. 

More like retired single regent before he established council for his son. The Taikò was not of royal blood so could not be the Shogun 

Edited March 20 by Raja

[Haleth]

I’m not feeling Cosmo Jarvis as Blackthorn either. The rest of the cast is superb but Jarvis is not measuring up for me. He’s not sympathetic. It’s more than the character being crude and ignorant, he’s just not pleasant to watch. 

[Constantinople]

I'm not sure why Mariko is angry at her husband for refusing to give his permission to kill herself. As a Christian, she must know her religion forbids this as well. The Jesuit priest who taught her Portuguese alluded to this in Episode 2: "The dark thoughts you have confessed to me in the past".

It makes me wonder how truthful she's being, including how truthful she's being with herself. In this episode she said her husband doesn't merit her hatred and she tells Blackthorne "Your swords. Fuji-sama believes they were given to her father as a battle honor. The truth is, he died a coward, begging for his life. Her grandfather bought them from a drunken samurai for three bags of rice to spare her the embarrassment". Perhaps she's telling something about herself in that story.

Just some idle speculation.

[DoctorAtomic]

How long has she been catholic? She was brought up immersed in seppuku culture, so it's hard to completely shake that off. Also, most catholics pick and choose what they want to believe or do anyway, so he's ahead of her time. 

Given her mention of the eightfold fence again, she could have been telling Blackthorne a metaphor of how she bristles at her husband's control. No way she'd outright say something like that. 

[Raja]

25 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'm not sure why Mariko is angry at her husband for refusing to give his permission to kill herself. As a Christian, she must know her religion forbids this as well. The Jesuit priest who taught her Portuguese alluded to this in Episode 2: "The dark thoughts you have confessed to me in the past".

The conversion came years after her clan was hunted down and seppuku was refused before then. Why she would continue to seek permission after understanding the Priest however doesn't track. Although technically speaking she could just start and a trusted second, where ever he would come from,  would make the actual fast kill I guess. She would be taught to forgive, but we all can't make it there.

20 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

How long has she been catholic? She was brought up immersed in seppuku culture, so it's hard to completely shake that off. Also, most catholics pick and choose what they want to believe or do anyway, so he's ahead of her time. 

14 years, her father assassination of the man who almost made it to Shogun and the Taiko turning his army on them in response was 4 years before that.

[tennisgurl]

Ouch, I knew something bad was going to happen with that pheasant, a culture clash that led to a mans death. Blackthorn really should have explained that better at least to Mariko, at least if they knew he was preparing something for food they would understand why he was keeping this rotten bird around. 

Points to everyone who called Mariko's husband being alive, tragically for her. What an asshole, I knew that dinner would turn into a pissing contest, and then when it became a drinking contest of course it got worse. 

That earthquake was certainly something. 

There is a really easy joke here about how English cuisine literally killed a person...

[Rickster]

On 3/20/2024 at 2:44 PM, Haleth said:

I’m not feeling Cosmo Jarvis as Blackthorn either. The rest of the cast is superb but Jarvis is not measuring up for me. He’s not sympathetic. It’s more than the character being crude and ignorant, he’s just not pleasant to watch. 

I don’t like him either, but I’m torn on whether the fault lies with the actor or the scriptwriters. They seem to have written him as a boorish one-note character.

[DoctorAtomic]

I think the writing is by design, and, to be fair, he was a little better here, and last episode from the dinner on. I'm guessing he's going to show some growth, and there was some here. They've shown he's smart enough to shut up and see what's going on with the switcheroo sneaking out Toranaga out of Osaka, and he's learned some Japanese words. On the other hand, he doesn't get how serious they are and sometimes can't get out of his own way. He's boorish, but not entirely an idiot. If he was just totally ignorant, we'd be bored and not talking about the show. 

Causing the death of the gardener is entirely his own fault, but the show made it clear that there was learning there and at the end with giving the swords to Toranaga and maintaining the story too. He seems to get the concept of the eightfold fence that Mariko talks about. 

I don't think Blackthorne thought drinking and talking trash was going to lead to Mariko being beaten either. It's entirely reasonable to think he's gotten drunk in the past, thrown a few punches, and that's the end of it. 

I think the main question in regards to the criticism of Blackthorne is - Shouldn't he know better by now? We're not really being told how much time has passed. I don't think enough time has passed, and, as someone who has lived there, it's hard even if you're really trying. I certainly wouldn't tell someone if they touched my stuff that they'd die, but it's also hard if you don't have someone else to talk to either to sound everything out.

He can only communicate through Portuguese too. 

[Raja]

On 3/20/2024 at 10:08 AM, aghst said:

So why would Lady Ochiba think she can wield power or make Ishido jump because she tells him to?

Perhaps the army of the Taiko's clan. Without a full council to rule for their Lord until he turns 16  someone would command it.

[DoctorAtomic]

Oh, that's it then. I was thinking she was going to pull some con that the Heir came of age. 

If that's the case, then that might buy Toranaga more time. 

[Raja]

On 3/20/2024 at 7:16 AM, LoveIsJoy said:

 

Perhaps I should have read the book first.  Blackthorne’s character isn’t doing it for me.  I can’t imagine why Mariko would be attracted to him. Maybe I just don’t like his acting.  Maybe it’s the script.  I’ll keep trying to hang in there because I like the rest of the cast very much, the cinematography, and the general story.

The rest of the samurai seem no more attractive or better than Blackthorne, just different and used to the local cultural norms. And when it comes down to it,  as with Lady Fuji the Lord will assign the consort/mate.

[MJ Frog]

On 3/19/2024 at 11:18 PM, Raja said:

To someone used to speaking figuratively and by use of stories to have your every word be taken literally would be a shock. 

I agree. And I heartily disagree with the notion that Blackthorne killed the gardener. They did, because of a custom so grotesque he couldn't imagine it happening that way. They didn't even consult him -- they just murdered the poor man. His disgust with the whole thing was more than warranted.

Switching topics, if I understand things correctly, Mariko's father was basically the Jaime Lannister of this world (without the sister stuff, of course). He is despised because he killed his lord, one whose death they probably wanted, but couldn't bring themselves to make happen. So her father, and by extension his family, serves as their sin eater.

Edited March 31 by MJ Frog

[magdalene]

On 3/19/2024 at 6:58 PM, AimingforYoko said:

I didn't see why everyone was so down on Blackthorne's pheasant stew. Everyone knows to defer to the English on matters of cuisine.

Yes, I have had wonderful food in the UK, though none of it was actually British origin.

[tallykat]

I am already rewatching the series although the finale is tomorrow.

As I have been thinking about things, I am confused on one point. I have gotten the Audible book and have started listening, so maybe it's clearer in the book.

We of course hear Mariko and Anjin speaking English, but what they are truly conversing in is Portuguese. So how can Mariko translate Anjin's rutter? And if I remember, the second rutter is from a Spanish pilot, who maybe wrote in Portuguese, but surely Blackthorne didn't, so how can she translate the English?

[mledawn]

3 hours ago, tallykat said:

I am already rewatching the series although the finale is tomorrow.

As I have been thinking about things, I am confused on one point. I have gotten the Audible book and have started listening, so maybe it's clearer in the book.

We of course hear Mariko and Anjin speaking English, but what they are truly conversing in is Portuguese. So how can Mariko translate Anjin's rutter? And if I remember, the second rutter is from a Spanish pilot, who maybe wrote in Portuguese, but surely Blackthorne didn't, so how can she translate the English?

This is a good point. In the book Blackthorne was hired by the Dutch East India company to pilot their ships through the Magellan's Pass with a stolen Portuguese rutter. Blackthorne's rutters are then stolen from his ship and given to Father Alvito (who doesn't know the order to take the rutters was given by Toranaga) translates them and tells Toranaga what they contain. Also in the book, Mariko and Blackthorne both speak Latin - perhaps he wrote his rutters in Latin as an extra level of protection? It's tough to fanwank that little detail for sure!

[tallykat]

16 hours ago, mledawn said:

Also in the book, Mariko and Blackthorne both speak Latin - perhaps he wrote his rutters in Latin as an extra level of protection?

Oh, that makes me very happy! Thinking of them speaking Latin and not a common language. By 1600, Latin was not spoken by the common folk. I don't know anything about Japanese grammar, but I do know Latin and we would consider it "stilted" which is how we would probably view Japanese as well. It just fits in my brain.

I also considered that he had written the rutter in Latin, but I also don't think of the rutter as being prose-y, but more like a list of notations of latitude and longitude and brief weather notations and then maybe "Sacked that Portuguese village. Here's what we collected:"  It seems it would be easy to translate a list like that, especially considering how close Portuguese, Spanish and Latin would be.

[Natalie25]

I'm not sure if it's clear in the book (I'm about ½ way through the audiobook) but I read somewhere that it would have been common for someone like Blackthorne who knew multiple languages and traveled extensively to be fluent in / write in Latin. I think in the Middle Ages Latin was the common written language between all the Romance languages.