S01.E04: The Eightfold Fence

[paulvdb]

Quote

Blackthorne and Mariko test their new alliance as they train Toranaga's gun regiment for war. Yabushige must navigate his past promises to Ishido when an old friend comes to the village.

Premiere date: March 12, 2024

[Raja]

From the earlier discussions of Hulu versus FX cuts. Two sex scenes, topless women in one and the star has privileges in the second.  Does everyone know that the courtesan story was false but society politely looks the other way?

After almost going down the route of being out of his depth leading a musket regiment the hatamoto was quick to turn himself into the artillery expert. Yoshii Nagakado, having only seen one fight before himself brings war with some sniper skilled gunnery from his crews.

[mledawn]

I enjoyed this episode for showing us how Blackthorne is changing and adapting. He is appreciating/understanding more about the Japanese culture.

Yabu comes off as almost a caricature of the ineffective bad guy. I understand that they need the actor to show more facial reactions to allow the audience to understand his inner monologue that we would otherwise get in the novel, but even still it seems a lot. But I'm enjoying his bumbling ways.

Conversely, I am not getting the hard vibes from Omi. I also wonder if Kiku's role will become more fleshed out (pardon the pun).

The scene with Fuji and the guns was really well done, as was the exchanging of the gifts between her and Blackthorne. I'm guessing a major plot point of the book has been removed in the miniseries due to modern sensibilities.

When Nagakado turns the cannons on Jozen, I actually startled. That was vivid.
 

[AimingforYoko]

6 hours ago, mledawn said:

That was vivid.

Yeah, artillery vs. flesh is not really a fair fight.

[DoctorAtomic]

"It's just one year."
"Ok, so she said six months, tops."

I'm actually not going to get on Blackthorne's case about wanting to go on his ship; sure, it's Toranaga's now, but the hatamoto needs the ship to carry out his duty he was tasked with. I would have just gotten on the boat and told Mariko to take it up with the lord. I will get on his case and tell him to just take the house. Did he forget he was the target of assassination? 

I liked the whole resolution to carrying the guns. Mariko is killing with all her asides - With utmost respect, we will depart. She takes good notes too. 

Blackthorne smart enough to know to keep his mouth shut if he wants to keep getting some of that sanpo suru along the Thames if y'all know what I mean. 

Kind of a shrewd move by the son to wipe out the Regents' emissary. You're keeping the secret of the cannon, and forcing the other lord to take his side. 

[cdnalor]

What was the deal with the food that Blackthorne insisted on trying that had the two women smiling at each other?  It didn't look or sound very appetizing (spoiled cheese flavor?) so I'm guessing it was something that a Westerner would consider revolting.

ETA: I found a recap that explained the food was called natto, which is fermented soybeans, but didn't explain the women's amusement.

Edited March 13 by cdnalor

[Raja]

1 hour ago, cdnalor said:

What was the deal with the food that Blackthorne insisted on trying that had the two women smiling at each other?  It didn't look or sound very appetizing (spoiled cheese flavor?) so I'm guessing it was something that a Westerner would consider revolting.

ETA: I found a recap that explained the food was called natto, which is fermented soybeans, but didn't explain the women's amusement.

But of course they only had very limited contact with non Japanese. Wiki suggests that it was a local dish that folks from other regions avoided. In the end an inside joke for the Japanese audience 

[aghst]

In the book, Blackthorne teaches them how to use muskets.

But the show consulted a scholar who said they’d have been familiar with muskets for at least 50 years.

So they changed it to Blackthorne teaching them how to use the cannons.

OK, I didn’t know that they shot cannon balls with chains attached which would slice through people.

I thought they were siege weapons, to break through castles and other fortifications.  The Japanese seem to have range weapons, such as legions of expert archers.

The muskets may pack power but didn’t they have to be reloaded often?  So the swords would be useful but they have a much higher learning curve.

 

Mariko’s free now, since her husband died an honorable death — have we seen any shameful deaths?  She also seems to have more agency than other women in Japanese society.  Blackthorne didn’t have much of a bath but the “consort” didn’t seem to mind or waste much time getting down, to business.

[Haleth]

19 hours ago, mledawn said:

Yabu comes off as almost a caricature of the ineffective bad guy. I understand that they need the actor to show more facial reactions to allow the audience to understand his inner monologue that we would otherwise get in the novel, but even still it seems a lot. But I'm enjoying his bumbling ways.

Yeah, his broad expressions would probably be considered vulgar.  On the other hand I was thinking about how subtle the performances of other actors are, especially Anna Sawai as Mariko.  Just the slightest twitch of her lips or narrowing of her eyes to suggest what she is feeling.

Oh, kids these days!  Leave them alone for a moment and they start a war.

[Raja]

7 hours ago, aghst said:

Mariko’s free now, since her husband died an honorable death — have we seen any shameful deaths?

They pulled the camera back from Lady Fuji's husband and son as he tried to atone for his shameful behavior, perhaps. But then he was allowed to try to walk back the shame by his act. The Christian who ignored the samurai when he approached Blackthorne to bless him might be shameful to the majority group.  And the execution of the prisoner seen when the Priest pleaded with Blackthorne to confess before he thought that he was to be killed.

There was a quick flashback to Lady Mariko's father. Who assassinated his and the Taiko's boss. And then the Taiko pulled his army out of their action to go deal with her traitorous family and their army. But to paraphrase Blackthorne it would not have been dishonorable if he had won.

Edited March 13 by Raja
execution of the prisoner

[Tom Holmberg]

9 hours ago, cdnalor said:

What was the deal with the food that Blackthorne insisted on trying that had the two women smiling at each other?  It didn't look or sound very appetizing (spoiled cheese flavor?) so I'm guessing it was something that a Westerner would consider revolting.

ETA: I found a recap that explained the food was called natto, which is fermented soybeans, but didn't explain the women's amusement.

Natto is famous for its nauseating smell. But Blackthorne probably is familiar with smelly cheese Iwhich he mentioned).

[DoctorAtomic]

10 hours ago, aghst said:

I thought they were siege weapons, to break through castles and other fortifications.  

Cannon from a pirate ship though, you'd want to disable a ship so it would be designed to be more precision and longer range. Pirate didn't really shell castles; maybe coastal forts, so same thing for the range. It's another dimension they wouldn't have thought out because there wasn't need for a navy. The cannon can still shell the castle from a distance. I would think they'd need more of them.

There's a Siege of Osaka castle in 1615 that cements the Tokugawa bakufu so maybe they did use them then. 

10 hours ago, aghst said:

Mariko’s free now, since her husband died an honorable death — have we seen any shameful deaths?

Blackthorne's official consort (Omi?) husband had to seppuku and the child, which is technically restoring his honor, but it was his own fault for speaking out in the council. So I'd say yes and no. 

I never had natto when I was there, but it was popular. You could buy packages of it in the supermarket. If it smelled like cheese I probably could have eaten it. Eel? No way. I'm dry heaving just thinking of it. 

 

[Tom Holmberg]

2 hours ago, Tom Holmberg said:

Natto is famous for its nauseating smell. But Blackthorne probably is familiar with smelly cheese Iwhich he mentioned).

Natto's "aroma comes from the ammonia that forms during fermentation. Natto in a nutshell: Texture: Slimy, sticky, and gooey. Smell: Strong ammonia odor."

[Raja]

The natto scene plays like men, or samurai since Blackthorne now has status do not eat it.

[Megras]

Re: the use of ships guns in sieges. See the relief of the Siege of Ladysmith where the Royal Navy transported ships guns over difficult terrain commemorated in the field gun competition

[Jack Shaftoe]

I really wish they would dial down Blackthorne's episodes of being the obnoxious loud foreigner who just cannot fathom that you don't mouth off people of higher rank. Not in Japan, not in England, not anywhere in the early 17th century if you want to keep your head. He is supposed to have served on ships for most of his life and on a ship the captain's authority is basically absolute. Why is he acting like some spoiled 21st century kid who thinks only suckers follow social conventions? And surely he must have realized that only higher-ups are called -sama but, no he had to go and call a gardener that.

Very convenient that he is a master gunner too. Though, Yabushige and company are in for a big surprise if the show follows history and Osaka castle proves too strong for this kind of guns. And I don't think guns at that era were anywhere near accurate enough to allow for most things we saw in the episode but Hollywood gonna Hollywood.

Fuji was kind of awesome and it's nice that the show mentioned how noble women handle financial affairs and other stuff and do not just stand around looking pretty all day long, as often thought.

[Raja]

21 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

 

Very convenient that he is a master gunner too. Though, Yabushige and company are in for a big surprise if the show follows history and Osaka castle proves too strong for this kind of guns. And I don't think guns at that era were anywhere near accurate enough to allow for most things we saw in the episode but Hollywood gonna Hollywood.

Fuji was kind of awesome and it's nice that the show mentioned how noble women handle financial affairs and other stuff and do not just stand around looking pretty all day long, as often thought.

First round on target danger close. I wouldn't do that with my National Guard units guns well 30 years ago. With a modern tank sure.

The Japanese Chief of Smoke was no joke himself. He pulled off the shot without the officer over his shoulder.

[DoctorAtomic]

I've been on Blackthorne's case probably the most, but even I had to cut him some slack in this episode. He had major beef with the minor lord who threw him and his men into a hole and pissed on him. I'm not going to be so inclined to hand over my guns either. 

He made a good effort to make amends with Fuji, and he was smart enough to go with their strategy of giving up the guns to them. If anything, I'd get on his case in not leaning into hatamoto nearly enough. He was titled in front of everyone directly from Tokugawa. Whether they all like it or not, they can't deny it. 

I think he was naive to think he'd get right to his ship and his men, and I said last night after watching that he's the target of assassination. No way he's not going to be tucked away out of reach. At least you got the house and you can walk around town. Even Makiko called him out - He's got responsibility and is honor bound to train the army. He also agreed to do that in front of everyone. What did you think was going to happen? 

As for -sama, I don't think it's a big deal to err on being respectful to the people you meet who haven't done anything to you. Ok, so you don't call the gardner -sama. No one told him what else people are called. He's been told thus far what to call everyone, and by and large, it's been -sama. He was being genuinely polite. 

In terms of the cannon, Blackthorne has a letter of marque from the Dutch crown. This is the time of pirates; if you're backed by the Crown, I think you're getting the top technology. It's a fair cheat. The letters were used to wage private wars. I don't think you're going to give them cut rate weapons. 

I don't think they'd be such ace cannon experts in such short a time either, but the payoff of blasting those other guys into smithereens was totally worth it. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

27 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

In terms of the cannon, Blackthorne has a letter of marque from the Dutch crown. This is the time of pirates; if you're backed by the Crown, I think you're getting the top technology.

There weren't any guns with such pin-point accuracy in that era. All the money in the world couldn't buy cannon like the ones depicted in the show.

39 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

He's been told thus far what to call everyone, and by and large, it's been -sama. He was being genuinely polite. 

No, he was told to call Mariko that with the very clear implication that it's not something you use for everyone. And he needs to be ridiculous unobservant to not have noticed that nobody else is calling servants -sama. Same with not realizing that he runs the risk of being killed on the spot every time he mouths off a samurai, no matter how minor of a lord the guy happens to be.

He also once again kept yelling at people in English (or maybe Portuguese) and expecting them to miraculously understand him. For a guy who has traveled far and wide and knows at least one foreign language, he behaves like the stereotypical Ugly American Brit way too often. He was even surprised he didn't get "his" ship and "his" men back as if there was any realistic possibility of this happening (since there would be nothing stopping him from immediately sailing for home).

[paigow]

Jack Sparrow / Barbossa needed chain-shot to break the mast of the Flying Dutchman 

7 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Cannon from a pirate ship though, you'd want to disable a ship so it would be designed to be more precision and longer range.

 

[Diapason Untuned]

I'm actually becoming genuinely fond of that rat Yabushige. The look on his face when Toranaga dipped had me chortling! 

5 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

No, he was told to call Mariko that with the very clear implication that it's not something you use for everyone. And he needs to be ridiculous unobservant to not have noticed that nobody else is calling servants -sama. 

Sure, but I feel he's erring on the side of caution.

If nothing else, maintaining a courteous relationship with the help won't steer you wrong no matter the era or country. 

Edited March 14 by Diapason Untuned

[Raja]

45 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

Sure, but I feel he's erring on the side of caution.

If nothing else, maintaining a courteous relationship with the help won't steer you wrong no matter the era or country. 

Without a clear ideal of just how long Anjin has been immersed in polite society or how quickly he picks up languages  I comeback to the Star Trek TNG episode Darmock

[tennisgurl]

Those cannons were so brutal, people were just exploding left and right. Toranaga's son went totally off script, it seems like his father wanted to keep the peace, at least for now, but he decided that he wanted to flex himself and show what a big boy he is in classic nepo baby style. 

Fugi and the guns was great, she's been taking a lot of shit and is right to be ready to throw down. At least she and Blackthorne seem to be awkwardly trying to get along and understand each other a bit, even if Blackthorne is making heart eyes at Mariko. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I'd say that's more than just heart eyes!

I tend to think Toranaga is just prolonging the inevitable. Plus, if they fill his vacancy in the meantime, then he's got even more problems. The son ripped off the band aid and kind of tests the Regency's resolve. 

[Raja]

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Fugi and the guns was great, she's been taking a lot of shit and is right to be ready to throw down. At least she and Blackthorne seem to be awkwardly trying to get along and understand each other a bit, even if Blackthorne is making heart eyes at Mariko. 

I wish they time stamped the scenes as I am having a hard time telling just how much time is passing. I think when Lady Fuji submitted to 6 months as Anjin's consort she was thinking that all the services would apply to her and she planned on killing herself when her sentence was up no matter what her Lord or grandfather ordered. But she is learning that Blackthorne might not have the samurai code but has his own code and would never touch her. After he proved his worth as an artillery officer and the exchange of gifts I wouldn't be surprised if, and hope that it is not until the story ends or till death do they part.

And in that I doubt Lady Mariko has pillowed with her husband since giving birth to their son and that household knows fully well about Anjin and Lady Mariko but will hold the secret to death just as Lady Fuji would protect his pistols. However I believe since there was no body shown Buntaro comes back to life.

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I tend to think Toranaga is just prolonging the inevitable. Plus, if they fill his vacancy in the meantime, then he's got even more problems. The son ripped off the band aid and kind of tests the Regency's resolve. 

I think the plan was to flip one of the Christian regents to his side to be just like the Taiko and his boss when they rose to prominence. The plan was already in motion with the cost being the church campus in Edo. As it is to get a new regent would break the balance of power between the other four regents as new alliances have to be made. The fighting itself being Lord Toranaga's back up plan  rather than submitting to the council and killing himself

Edited March 16 by Raja

[DoctorAtomic]

The existing four regents would want to bring in a potential fifth regent to impeach Toranaga and make whatever deal they could to get it done. I don't think they'd be looking past that horizon. If they can't find someone quick enough, then they're going to have to take up arms because they know Toranaga is too crafty. 

Toranaga may want to flip the Christians, but I just don't see him having the luxury of playing that longer game here. Plus, everyone got wiped out by the cannons. The regents still don't know about them yet and probably won't for a while because cell phone coverage was spotty back then. Toranaga really has the upper hand right now if though he doesn't know it.

It's a matter of picking the battlefield. Blackthorne et al., are closer to Edo than the regents are in Osaka. The cannons can get to Edo faster on Blackthorne's ship. 

[khyber]

16 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

The regents still don't know about them yet and probably won't for a while because cell phone coverage was spotty back then. 

🤣

[Raja]

On 3/13/2024 at 11:19 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

In terms of the cannon, Blackthorne has a letter of marque from the Dutch crown. This is the time of pirates; if you're backed by the Crown, I think you're getting the top technology. It's a fair cheat. The letters were used to wage private wars. I don't think you're going to give them cut rate weapons. 

I don't think they'd be such ace cannon experts in such short a time either, but the payoff of blasting those other guys into smithereens was totally worth it. 

The show has put me in the Google bot's eyesight and many historians are putting out that England in particular were making advances in standardized guns, and especially in the manufacturing of the cannonballs that made them many times more accurate than the rest of the world. Remember Anjin measuring with his protractor before the first shots. In a way it sounds to me how the US Navy really studied their failed torpedoes during WWII or the failures of air to air missiles in the first years of the Vietnam War but then the errors were correct by the end of those two wars.

Again I come down to no timestamps and how much practice did those crews have? And later for the story how much of that ship's magazines have been emptied already? Now that the Hatamoto has proven his worth  to paraphrase Lord Omi's mother perhaps they now practicing with the cheap locally made stuff. And Lady Mariko writing down notes of his instruction so the knowledge might not be lost if the Hatamoto wasn't the officer in charge.

In any case as with almost all shooting on film. beyond Imperial Stormtroopers they still just show us superior, dare I say supernatural accuracy and not that most shots miss.

[mledawn]

6 hours ago, Raja said:

Remember Anjin measuring with his protractor before the first shots.

I laughed so hard at this, thank you!

I was wondering if anything was going to be made of him using a sextant - by the characters or by the viewers. Is it anachronistic for him to have one given the miniseries is set in 1600?

[ofmd]

I'm 10 minutes in and he's still disrespecting her by calling her Mariko. Gah, I just can't with this Blackthorne.

[Constantinople]

Looking back, I can't point to a specific scene, but I was under the impression that by resigning from the Council of Regents, the Council couldn't act until a replacement was named, and that Toranaga expected that to take a while due to political infighting. During that time,Toranaga would prepare for the next phase of civil war.

But as I said, I'm not sure why I think that. If true, it's odd the 4 regents could impeach a 5th regent and sentence him to death, but a 4 person Council of Regents cannot act while there's a empty seat on the Council.

I'm also wondering how many cannonballs were on Blackthorne's ship. They seem to be going through them at a fair clip.

Edited March 19 by Constantinople

[DoctorAtomic]

That's correct. There needs to be 5 official regents for any vote. They showed Toranaga's old secretary or whoever he was deliver the resignation letter. He said Taiko required 5 voting members for any order. Then they showed Toranaga himself telling the crafty vassal, who was flipping out thinking they were going to vote to have them all killed. 

So I thought it was something like a quorum. Of course, they could just say screw the rules. They know Toranaga isn't going to follow their orders. 

I don't think Toranaga has as much time as he thinks though. That's why I said I thought the son setting off the cannons was probably a better move than they would think. 

[Raja]

On 3/12/2024 at 9:38 PM, aghst said:

The muskets may pack power but didn’t they have to be reloaded often?  So the swords would be useful but they have a much higher learning curve.

In general when firearms started appearing the advantage was for the ordinary conscripted troops, not those training for life to be knights,  samurai, or even the English long bow and European crossbow archers. It would be for that Japanese infantry with a spear or even a European pike regiment, when bayonets' were adopted. later as the rate of fire increased Samurai besides Blackthorne would start to have firearms also.

So the trade off was a short term teaching of the manual or arms in order to load and reload for a weapon that would penetrate armor compared to a lifetime preparing to be a Spartan or other nation's professional fighters. Those professionals who survived that first volley if able to get in amongst the gunners would make short work of them. So some infantry retained their spears and pikes as escorts for the musketeers.

[Jodithgrace]

I’ve been to Japan a few times, as my brother and sister in law lived there for 15 years. I’ll eat just about any Japanese food, but not Natto. It’s slimy and gluey and tastes just like one would think fermented soybeans would taste. When Mariko said that blackthorn probably wouldn’t like what they were eating, I immediately thought, “natto!” And laughed out loud when I was right. My brother won’t eat it either, but my sister in law loves it.