S23.E06: On the Ledge

[GHScorpiosRule]

When NYPD responds to the scene of an active shooter in a nearby hospital, Shaw is shocked at his connection to the suspect. Maroun and Price face a difficult trial when the defendant offers up an insanity plea.

[Spartan Girl]

Oh goody, another shooting episode.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Maroun and Price face a difficult trial

This seems to be an ongoing them ever since the show returned. Every.Single.Trial. it seems is them facing a difficult trial! Good Grief.

[Spartan Girl]

I’m getting pretty sick of Dick Wolf or whoever the hell is in charge of this show now. That’s all I’ve got to say.

[mommalib]

Shaw is a great character and Mechad Books is a great actor. The duality of being a Black man and a cop must feel like a trap. He could relate to everything single thing that guy had went through and he understood the rage. Obviously what that guy did was wrong and he deserved to be punished, he should have taken the deal. And of course Shaw had the integrity to get on the stand and tell the truth. What's sad is Shaw is surrounded by people who don't get it and don't really want to like Riley. 

[TakomaSnark]

Interesting premise undone by such dumb dialogue.

'You mean a jumper jumper? Did you talk him down?'

No, Riley, he jumped. Then I got a coffee and came into the precinct.

[GHScorpiosRule]

15 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I’m getting pretty sick of Dick Wolf or whoever the hell is in charge of this show now. That’s all I’ve got to say.

It’s not Wolf, but Rick Eid. Someone who came on this show around season 15. 

[Spartan Girl]

14 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

It’s not Wolf, but Rick Eid. Someone who came on this show around season 15. 

I stand corrected. But my sentiment remains.

I would have felt sorrier for the guy if he hadn’t tried to make a deal for house arrest instead of prison. 

[mommalib]

20 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I stand corrected. But my sentiment remains.

I would have felt sorrier for the guy if he hadn’t tried to make a deal for house arrest instead of prison. 

I don't know if the point was for you to feel sorry for the guy. Understand yes feel sorry maybe not. 

[ML89]

Someone actually cited a legal case - I almost fell out of my chair. What would crime dramas do without that pesky HIPAA.

Nolan is acting district attorney? Was everyone else on vacation or out sick? To be fair, he’s probably a better administrator than trial lawyer. He certainly isn’t winning any points with Shaw and Riley, after he’s sandbagged both of them in court.

Also to be fair, this one was pretty good although I miss the days when Mothership was not trying to be SVU. 

[Xeliou66]

Tonight had a strong first half and a subpar second half. I liked the intensity of the first half and the manhunt for the shooter, the detective side of the show is well done, but the show lost its steam in the second half as has been the case several times on the revival. McCoy’s absence was felt - I kept wondering what he would say about the case - I did like that they acknowledged his absence with Price saying it’s the end of an era - indeed it is. But once again Price/Maroun seemed to get caught flat footed at trial with a sudden change of plea by the defense - wouldn’t the defense have to give notice that they were pleading insanity? That was never mentioned. The judge seemed biased towards the defense.
Also I really wish they would bring on a new psych expert to consult with the DAs/police, I miss Skoda/Olivet terribly whenever there’s a psych issue on the show now - we needed to hear from a prosecution expert and see them evaluate the defendant as well. 

The defendant was sympathetic to a degree but he didn’t deserve a free pass for murder because of his tragic story, the DAs were willing to take his backstory into consideration when they offered a plea and he should’ve accepted. The jury got the right verdict, he wasn’t legally insane at the time, and the doctor didn’t deserve to die just because he made a mistake. The defendant could’ve filed a wrongful death suit if he felt the doctor was negligent, but instead he chose murder and he deserved to be convicted for it.

The callback to Shaw being racially profiled last season was nice continuity, and  Shaw was in a tough position here, Mehcad Brooks gave a stellar performance as usual. Riley was correct though when he said that you have to testify truthfully - I had little doubt that Shaw would. Shaw/Riley have a nice dynamic and I like watching them work - and I liked the intensity of the manhunt in the first half. 

I did like the scene where Maroun and the hospital attorney argued to the judge about whether to release the tape, that felt like classic L&O. But something just felt missing from the second half, I’m not sure if it was because of the absence of a DA character, or if it was once again the prosecutors seeming to get caught off guard at trial, or if it was the dialogue being kind of clunky at times, or what exactly - but the detective part of the show is clicking well while the show frequently loses steam in the legal side, and this was especially true without Sam/Jack tonight. Hopefully the addition of Goldwyn/Baxter will give the legal side a new spark in the next episode, because I just felt the episode lost steam and was lacking something in the second half tonight.

A mixed bag overall, I liked some parts and disliked other parts, but my main takeaway is that the legal side needs more energy while the detective side clicks well. Jack was sorely missed as I expected, but hopefully the new DA will give the legal side a new spark and some intrigue coming up. 
 

 

[mommalib]

I think this was the strongest episode of the season so far. And they need to give Mechad Brooks more leading stories. Shaw is a strong intense dude but also vulnerable and kind. Brooks balances both perfectly. 

Edited March 1 by mommalib

[Raja]

ADA Price was able to be acting DA along with prosecuting  an entire murder trial and the Governor  is still stalling on naming an acting DA. Little wonder they were caught flat footed once again.

[txhorns79]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

it was once again the prosecutors seeming to get caught off guard at trial,

In fairness to them, the defense normally gives notice that they are pursuing an insanity defense.  It wasn't like in this episode where the defense starts making that case and only announces what they are doing during a sidebar.  

The episode reminded me a little of that episode from the original where the defendant puts on a "black rage" defense.  I want to say that many of the arguments made in that episode, which I think is nearly 30 years or so old, were used here as well.     

[TakomaSnark]

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

In fairness to them, the defense normally gives notice that they are pursuing an insanity defense.  It wasn't like in this episode where the defense starts making that case and only announces what they are doing during a sidebar.  

The episode reminded me a little of that episode from the original where the defendant puts on a "black rage" defense.  I want to say that many of the arguments made in that episode, which I think is nearly 30 years or so old, were used here as well.     

It reminded me a LOT of that episode as well, though that one had the benefit of Michael S. Chernuchin penning the script.

 

8 hours ago, mommalib said:

I think this was the strongest episode of the season so far. And they need to give Mechad Brooks more leading stories. Shaw is a strong intense dude but also vulnerable and kind. Brooks balances both perfectly. 

Totally agree, I think he elevated this one to the point where I'd call it the most interesting of the reboot.

If only they'd kill the Criminal Minds-esque flourishes - the overbearing dramatic music, the weird cutaways (during the chase with Shaw and Riley, that sudden jump/zoom in to the speedometer just in case we weren't sure the cops were driving really really fast!), the terrible green screen (again, that chase).

Edited March 1 by TakomaSnark

[wknt3]

12 hours ago, ML89 said:

Nolan is acting district attorney? Was everyone else on vacation or out sick?

The Executive ADA has always been the second in command in the L&Overse going back to at least early in Jack's run (I don't think it was ever clearly laid out during the Stone years although Greevey did remark he was a higher up back in one of the pilots IIRC). So if they wanted to give TG a little breathing room and pinch some pennies this was nice continuity.

 

10 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

The episode reminded me a little of that episode from the original where the defendant puts on a "black rage" defense.  I want to say that many of the arguments made in that episode, which I think is nearly 30 years or so old, were used here as well.     

I was reminded too. Unfortunately the headlines they are ripping from haven't changed that much either...

Edited March 1 by wknt3
reminded not remanded thankfully

[Raja]

3 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

The Executive ADA has always been the second in command in the L&Overse going back to at least early in Jack's run (I don't think it was ever clearly laid out during the Stone years although Greevey did remark he was a higher up back in one of the pilots IIRC). So if they wanted to give TG a little breathing room and pinch some pennies this was nice continuity.

When they came to the I'm acting DA scene I immediately thought that he couldn't be the only Executive, like an Executive Officer on a ship in New York County we see 20 something murders a year which he does alone, not counting SVU and other cases. I remember when they threw Linus Roche's Cutter an episode on SVU  it did seem like he got promoted from EADA to a chief of the DA's Special Victims unit.

And if Price was acting DA then why wasn't ADA Maroun the lead prosecutor on what looked like a straight forward  case with the murder weapon in hands of the suspect a few hours after the crime. 

[dubbel zout]

12 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I did like the scene where Maroun and the hospital attorney argued to the judge about whether to release the tape, that felt like classic L&O.

I was legit surprised she was on the ball enough to bring up any CCTV for the exterior of the hospital.

2 hours ago, Raja said:

And if Price was acting DA then why wasn't ADA Maroun the lead prosecutor on what looked like a straight forward  case with the murder weapon in hands of the suspect a few hours after the crime. 

She'd have lost the case. I wish they'd make Maroun more capable.

I got all excited when the car chase started, thinking, "Oh, no foot chase this week!" and of course that was immediately dashed.

Edited March 1 by dubbel zout

[Theli11]

Thought it was a really good episode with a strong performance by Brooks (he’s the best actor in the cast right now and I hope they keep him for a while). I’m glad they focused on the police side a lot and Shaw’s duality as a cop and a black man is incredibly showing. I really hope the legal side picks up soon with the DA (also the chase was definitely in Brooklyn and not Manhattan like they want us to think it was. We can see the Williamsburg bridge, and Bedford Avenue in the background… whatever)

[shapeshifter]

Since they had Shaw remind Nolan “I'm a lawyer too,” I wonder if this case will make him decide he'd rather go back to being a lawyer instead of a cop…
— probably not since his responses on the stand weren't at all couched in terms that could have helped the jury see the defendant as temporarily insane — which suicidal ideation supports.

Edited March 2 by shapeshifter

[wknt3]

11 hours ago, wknt3 said:

The Executive ADA has always been the second in command in the L&Overse going back to at least early in Jack's run (I don't think it was ever clearly laid out during the Stone years although Greevey did remark he was a higher up back in one of the pilots IIRC). So if they wanted to give TG a little breathing room and pinch some pennies this was nice continuity.

 

10 hours ago, Raja said:

When they came to the I'm acting DA scene I immediately thought that he couldn't be the only Executive, like an Executive Officer on a ship in New York County we see 20 something murders a year which he does alone, not counting SVU and other cases. I remember when they threw Linus Roche's Cutter an episode on SVU  it did seem like he got promoted from EADA to a chief of the DA's Special Victims unit.

Yes but that was SVU where working with Benson is automatically a promotion no matter what your position is. Seriously though it was Warren Leight writing (who has pretty much gone on record saying he doesn't give a crap about the legal side of the franchise) and there was a lot of material there about the DA's office that has been handwaved away like the evil "new DA".
 

8 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Quote

And if Price was acting DA then why wasn't ADA Maroun the lead prosecutor on what looked like a straight forward  case with the murder weapon in hands of the suspect a few hours after the crime. 

She'd have lost the case.

[EtheltoTillie]

I think the script was wrong on the HIPAA issue.  I work with HIPAA issues fairly often in my practice   A judge can order a release of records as an exception that relieves the provider of liability. I don’t think the hospital lawyer would resist the release so vigorously when a judge could order the release.  They would resist without the judge’s order.  I looked up the case they cited.  It was a very different fact situation. It talked about blurred faces on a publicly aired TV documentary. Not release of a few shots to law enforcement.  Also it/was not specifically about HIPAA.  Where are the lawyers who are supposed to be consulting?  

Yes, good thing they thought of outdoor footage. 

Edited March 2 by EtheltoTillie

[cfinboston]

DAE wonder why he thought he'd die jumping into the river from a ledge which was around two feet from the water? Maybe if he couldn't swim but that's not a suicide leap.

There's no way that a trained LEO is just going to let a suicidal man walk away. He was intending to kill himself but as long as he says he's fine, Jalen just shrugs and lets him go?

The kid's mom, aunt's sister, and suspect's wife died yesterday and they're not planning a funeral or grieving or even not going to school? They make her death sound like an inconvenience. 

 

[Cotypubby]

12 hours ago, cfinboston said:

DAE wonder why he thought he'd die jumping into the river from a ledge which was around two feet from the water? Maybe if he couldn't swim but that's not a suicide leap.

There's no way that a trained LEO is just going to let a suicidal man walk away. He was intending to kill himself but as long as he says he's fine, Jalen just shrugs and lets him go?

The kid's mom, aunt's sister, and suspect's wife died yesterday and they're not planning a funeral or grieving or even not going to school? They make her death sound like an inconvenience. 

 

I was thinking the exact same thing re: the height! Diving boards are higher than what he was planning on jumping from. 
 

And there is no way that “I was going to kill myself but I’m fine now! Bye!” would really fly. He would have detained him for his own protection and called an ambulance.

The kid was out of school, that’s why they went to the mom’s apartment.

[blackwing]

I wish they had explored Shaw's conflict on the stand a bit more.  With a few more minutes, they could have had longer scenes that showed how conflicted he was.  There should have been a question from the defence attorney that he was on the stand under subpoena, why is that?  Then Shaw could have explained how uncomfortable he felt.  There should have been a question about whether he believed that racial based trauma was real.  And why.  They could have explored how he himself was the victim ot racial prejudice.  There would have been objections from Price but I think this would have been more interesting than seeing yet another footchase.

On 2/29/2024 at 9:20 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Tonight had a strong first half and a subpar second half. I liked the intensity of the first half and the manhunt for the shooter, the detective side of the show is well done, but the show lost its steam in the second half as has been the case several times on the revival. McCoy’s absence was felt - I kept wondering what he would say about the case - I did like that they acknowledged his absence with Price saying it’s the end of an era - indeed it is. But once again Price/Maroun seemed to get caught flat footed at trial with a sudden change of plea by the defense - wouldn’t the defense have to give notice that they were pleading insanity? That was never mentioned. The judge seemed biased towards the defense.

I like Sam Waterston but I don't think he was missed that much... he would have told Nolan to get a conviction.  Except for last episode, Jack really hasn't had all that much to do in the episodes except say a few lines.  He was used even less than Dixon is.

And I agree that it's very odd that the defence decides in the middle of the trial to disclose that they are going for an insanity defence.  I thought the attorneys have to disclose in advance which experts they are planning on calling and documents filed that support the fact that the expert is actually an expert.  They can't just spring a surprise witness like that.

Technically, they didn't plea to anything.  A plea would be when they agree to a verdict of guilty in exchange for a reduced sentence.  They were just changing the basis of their defence.

On 3/1/2024 at 9:23 AM, dubbel zout said:

She'd have lost the case. I wish they'd make Maroun more capable.

i wish they got rid of her altogether.  I was surprised that she didn't side with the defendant, typically she is thrust into the role of feeling sorry for the defendant and being judgemental of Nolan for wanting to convict him.

[shapeshifter]

15 hours ago, cfinboston said:

DAE wonder why he thought he'd die jumping into the river from a ledge which was around two feet from the water? Maybe if he couldn't swim but that's not a suicide leap.

2 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

I was thinking the exact same thing re: the height! Diving boards are higher than what he was planning on jumping from. 

Yeah, the camera operators and directors and editors could've maybe done a better job of showing the height, since presumably it was supposed to be the Williamsburg Bridge, which has a "Clearance below" [of] 135 feet (41 m) at mean high water" (wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamsburg_Bridge).

Maybe they only did one take because of the cold and because the actors had already delivered. In this Cinemablend interview, Mechad Brooks says it was cold and emotional:

Quote

…We filmed in Williamsburg, right over the East River. Everything you see is real. There's no green screen on that. Everything was safe, he was harnessed up, but he's standing over the East River. It was cold that day and those were real tears. [laughs] Sometimes when you're doing this job, your brain doesn't know the difference. And this was one of these episodes [where] I had to go home and unravel some things and calm my nervous system. Just seeing a guy standing over the edge puts you in a place, right? …

https://www.cinemablend.com/interviews/i-had-to-go-home-and-unravel-mehcad-brooks-breaks-down-law-and-order-s-emotional-verdict-for-shaw-and-filming-spoiler-on-location

Still, they couldn't they have shot some footage showing the height without the actors present and strategically spliced it in? Looking at the picture below (and the scene) probably not.
The Williamsburg Bridge is clearly in the background behind Mechad Brooks and not where the action is taking place, so trying to do some sort of background manipulation would've just looked bad.  

And there was likely no way to reshoot it and splice in the dramatic dialog moments either. 

And rewriting some dialog to say he probably would've survived the distance but not the water temperature would've been clunky at best since most viewers (and too many swimmers) don't know how quickly cold water can kill.

Edited March 2 by shapeshifter

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

There should have been a question about whether he believed that racial based trauma was real.  And why. 

I don't think that testimony would have been useful—Shaw isn't a mental health professional and can't speak to it. Even Nolan would have objected and gotten it sustained.

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

They could have explored how he himself was the victim ot racial prejudice. 

This, though, would be more useful, I think. A black detective isn't immune from racial prejudice from his own department. (Sidebar to that: I liked how Shaw put Riley in his place when Riley tried to be sympathetic to Shaw.) 

[KittyQ]

On 3/2/2024 at 1:03 PM, blackwing said:

i wish they got rid of her altogether.  I was surprised that she didn't side with the defendant, typically she is thrust into the role of feeling sorry for the defendant and being judgemental of Nolan for wanting to convict him.

Maroun makes Serena look like a hard ass. 

[KittyQ]

On 3/2/2024 at 2:50 PM, dubbel zout said:

This, though, would be more useful, I think. A black detective isn't immune from racial prejudice from his own department. (Sidebar to that: I liked how Shaw put Riley in his place when Riley tried to be sympathetic to Shaw.) 

I thought the Shaw / Riley conversation was good until Shaw did that. If someone is trying to understand your perspective, telling them that they don't know what they're talking about is kind of jerky IMO. Maybe it is an understandable impulse, but being a little less strident might help the person understand you better than basically telling them to buzz off; they might not try very hard to understand you if you don't meet them partway. 

[Raja]

11 minutes ago, KittyQ said:

Maroun makes Serena look like a hard ass. 

She has flipped from Ms Southerlyn to Miss Charmichael depending upon the case of the week.

[Xeliou66]

16 minutes ago, KittyQ said:

Maroun makes Serena look like a hard ass. 

I wouldn’t go that far - Maroun is rather bland and can be soft but she’s never done anything as infuriating as when Serena felt sorry for those scum who let their kid get raped. I would take Maroun over Serena or Borgia (that might be an unpopular opinion, but she doesn’t infuriate me the way those two could) but Maroun isn’t nearly as good as the other 5 second chair ADAs - Paul, Claire, Jamie, Abbie and Connie. 

 

6 minutes ago, KittyQ said:

I thought the Shaw / Riley conversation was good until Shaw did that. If someone is trying to understand your perspective, telling them that they don't know what they're talking about is kind of jerky IMO. Maybe it is an understandable impulse, but being a little less strident might help the person understand you better than basically telling them to buzz off; they might not try very hard to understand you if you don't meet them partway. 

I got where both Shaw and Riley were coming from - I think Shaw’s emotions were still raw regarding the incident in which he was racially profiled and stopped by the officer, that has to be a humiliating experience, and I think that’s why he was rather prickly with Riley because he was right that Riley didn’t fully understand the emotions that come with that, but Riley was overall being supportive and he was right when he said you must tell the truth in court regardless of your personal feelings - that’s true of anyone who gets called to testify but especially police. 

[KittyQ]

2 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I would take Maroun over Serena or Borgia (that might be an unpopular opinion, but she doesn’t infuriate me the way those two could) but Maroun isn’t nearly as good as the other 5 second chair ADAs - Paul, Claire, Jamie, Abbie and Connie. 

I didn't mind Borgia (and her end was the worst, to me) but I think Paul was always my favorite and I also liked Connie, because she seemed to be able to be pragmatic and idealistic when needed and was also very competent without being flawless.

[Xeliou66]

Just now, KittyQ said:

I didn't mind Borgia (and her end was the worst, to me) but I think Paul was always my favorite and I also liked Connie, because she seemed to be able to be pragmatic and idealistic when needed and was also very competent without being flawless.

I dislike Borgia mainly because of the episode In God We Trust, she basically came off as against the separation of church and state in that one and thought religious beliefs should influence the law. Other than that Borgia was bland and just kind of there - she had one good episode, Cost of Capital.

My favorite ADA is Connie, she was really great and a stellar prosecutor, and she elevated the later season episodes tremendously, breathing new life into the legal part of season 17 and making the Cutter episodes more enjoyable - I have real issues with Mike Cutter but Connie really elevates those episodes. I wish Connie had become lead prosecutor when Jack became DA and had gotten a male second chair, that would’ve been interesting and Connie would’ve been an awesome lead prosecutor.

I also love Paul, Claire, Jamie and Abbie. The only two second chairs I dislike are Serena and Borgia. Maroun is just kind of there, she’s irritated me a couple of times, she’s been decent a couple of times, but for the most part is bland.

[Raja]

4 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Maroun is just kind of there, she’s irritated me a couple of times, she’s been decent a couple of times, but for the most part is bland.

I always give ADA Maroun  the benefit of the doubt because the ADA and police LT seem to have lost the most time to the foot chases and what seems like additional advertising time in the assumption of the show 10 years later

[shapeshifter]

53 minutes ago, KittyQ said:

If someone is trying to understand your perspective, telling them that they don't know what they're talking about is kind of jerky IMO.

It can also be eye-opening and perspective-changing.
But when I was on Riley's side of such an exchange, the coworker and I had a well-established working friendship of many years.
IDK. How long have Riley and Shaw been working together?

Regardless, I did feel Riley's inner Whoa! reaction when Shaw said it, which also felt realistic to me, rather than trying to model a warm-and-fuzzy but unrealistic interaction.

[dubbel zout]

54 minutes ago, KittyQ said:

being a little less strident might help the person understand you better than basically telling them to buzz off; they might not try very hard to understand you if you don't meet them partway. 

How does Shaw meet him partway? Riley would never be mistaken for a perp by other cops simply because of the color of his skin. Riley should have simply said he was sorry that happened to Shaw and left it at that. 

Some experiences are never going to be understood by outsiders.

51 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

[Riley] was right when he said you must tell the truth in court regardless of your personal feelings - that’s true of anyone who gets called to testify but especially police. 

This I definitely agree with. Also, I think it shouldn't have come as a surprise to Shaw that Price would ask him to testify, and that he knew Shaw would be reluctant so had the subpoena ready. But the show always seems to have at least one "gotcha" moment connected to the trial side of things, even if the "gotcha" is stupid and entirely predictable.

48 minutes ago, KittyQ said:

[Borgia's] end was the worst, to me

Same. I thought it was needlessly awful.

[KittyQ]

4 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

How does Shaw meet him partway? Riley would never be mistaken for a perp by other cops simply because of the color of his skin. Riley should have simply said he was sorry that happened to Shaw and left it at that. 

Some experiences are never going to be understood by outsiders.

My experience is that in situations like that, saying something like, "Maybe it's hard for you to understand because you haven't been there, but haven't you ever had experiences that just wear you down."  Just about everyone has felt disregarded at some point for some unfair reason and they can relate to that. It isn't saying that everything is equivalent, but especially when dealing with someone you have to work with and depend on building understanding is important.

 

[dubbel zout]

37 minutes ago, KittyQ said:

My experience is that in situations like that, saying something like, "Maybe it's hard for you to understand because you haven't been there, but haven't you ever had experiences that just wear you down."  Just about everyone has felt disregarded at some point for some unfair reason and they can relate to that. It isn't saying that everything is equivalent, but especially when dealing with someone you have to work with and depend on building understanding is important.

I don't think that's what Shaw wanted from Riley there. Racism is a daily occurrence for too many people. Shaw was saying that while he didn't agree with how the guy dealt with it, he certainly understood his frustration and anger at how he and his wife had been treated at the hospital.

ETA: I have no doubt Riley meant well and was trying to be genuinely supportive. But sometimes that means you need to keep quiet. I can't imagine there is anything is Riley's past that comes close to being racially profiled and then basically blamed for it by your own department. That's a fundamental betrayal that's hard to shake off.

Edited March 4 by dubbel zout

[mommalib]

7 hours ago, KittyQ said:

I thought the Shaw / Riley conversation was good until Shaw did that. If someone is trying to understand your perspective, telling them that they don't know what they're talking about is kind of jerky IMO. Maybe it is an understandable impulse, but being a little less strident might help the person understand you better than basically telling them to buzz off; they might not try very hard to understand you if you don't meet them partway. 

No Riley was was out of pocket he has no idea what it's like to be a Black man or a Black cop. He went from acting as if he was trying to be understanding to being a little judgmental. Shaw has every right to respond the way he did. 

[Chyromaniac]

On 2/29/2024 at 9:20 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Also I really wish they would bring on a new psych expert to consult with the DAs/police, I miss Skoda/Olivet terribly whenever there’s a psych issue on the show now - we needed to hear from a prosecution expert and see them evaluate the defendant as well. 

I thought this was a strong episode, buoyed immensely by Mehcad’s performance.  However, I think this is a good point- I seem to recall affirmative defenses allowing some kind of evaluation from a state expert from the old show .  I think that could have helped explain some of the debate over whether the defendant fit the diagnosis, and also taken some of the heat off Price- because honestly it felt like the defense expert felt more credible than he did questioning her.  And hey- if the message of the episode is that this condition is real, then having Oliver say, “you don’t want to put me on the stand” is a way to convey that.

How do you make time for that in this episode?  The easiest solution is to just have Shaw confront the guy on the bridge after the shooting instead of before.  Then he goes to the precinct, hears about the shooting, and he and Riley investigate the crime.  Eventually they come across the shooter at that apartment, because Shaw told him to go be with his kid.  I think that would shave at least 10 minutes off the investigation side- you could even keep the scene about the hospital video.

As it is, we get to the bail scene at almost exactly halfway through the show- I suspect that’s the case in nearly every episode now.  I don’t think it’s always necessary for this show to be literally half cop show/half lawyer show.  Sometimes one side is going to need more time.  Right now I feel like they are so beholden to this format, that they end up padding out the first half with red herrings or extraneous issues - but the second half almost always feels rushed and confusing.  In an episode like this one- where it’s perfectly obvious who the killer is going to be- they don’t need to treat that part of the show like a big mystery.  Save that screen time for when it can really make the story better.

[ML89]

I stg I don't think any cop team has chased more suspects than the last two seasons. I mean, yeah, the other teams chased people but not every episode - you can almost set your watch by it. It's also taking time away from other things - it's like they realize they're cheating by using cameras everywhere and social media, instead of knocking on doors, and try to make up for it with the chases.

Meanwhile over on the order side, they remember the "Law & Order twist" but it seems every week that it makes Nolan and Maroun look like fools.

[Raja]

I was asking myself why does the hospital security record if they would never release the videos to the cops?

[KittyQ]

On 3/5/2024 at 5:53 AM, Chyromaniac said:

How do you make time for that in this episode?  The easiest solution is to just have Shaw confront the guy on the bridge after the shooting instead of before.  Then he goes to the precinct, hears about the shooting, and he and Riley investigate the crime.  Eventually they come across the shooter at that apartment, because Shaw told him to go be with his kid.  I think that would shave at least 10 minutes off the investigation side- you could even keep the scene about the hospital video.

I think that would have been more time economical, for sure. However, it would eliminate the conflict Shaw felt about saving a person who later went on to kill someone - if he had known what the guy was going to do, would he still have tried to stop him from killing himself? I didn't think they gave that conundrum enough consideration in the script, although to me it seems central to the policeman's competing imperatives - can (or should) you save more lives by letting one life go, especially since you aren't the one ending it?

[paigow]

On 3/2/2024 at 2:31 AM, cfinboston said:

DAE wonder why he thought he'd die jumping into the river from a ledge which was around two feet from the water? Maybe if he couldn't swim but that's not a suicide leap.

 

NYC drinking water is pumped in from the Catskills... Dude guessed swallowing some river water would be fatal....

[paigow]

Almost every Tom Cruise movie includes scenes of him running / chasing... maybe L&O producers think that  is the key to higher ratings...

[Raja]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Almost every Tom Cruise movie includes scenes of him running / chasing... maybe L&O producers think that  is the key to higher ratings...

Too bad they didn't figure out it was Tom Cruise that made it work. I seriously thought that Mechad Brooks had a back injury or was just to top heavy  after watching Detective Shaw try to run.

[Drumpf1737]

So does Sean Hannity write these episodes now? My goodness the cop-a-ganda and utter bs was astounding.

I love how often L&O visits the Black Rage trope. I can't believe my once favorite show has devolved this much. I knew the show was in trouble 15 years ago when I stopped watching but ffs this is awful.