S01.E10: The Prodigal Son Returns

[Danny Franks]

So watching the episode again, and I'm struck by a couple of things in the opening scenes. First, if anyone snapped their fingers at me like Meg was to Laurie, I would be hard pressed not to snap them off. That is so fucking rude... so I guess it suits the GR perfectly.

 

And two, I really don't think Jill ever had any intention of joining the GR. She wanted her mother back, and you can see the mockery in all her actions. The little 'this is fucking ridiculous' headshake as she starts writing "talk", then 'is this what I need to do to get you to notice me?' as she starts putting on the GR whites. It all just smacked of 'don't you see how stupid you're being?' Nothing like an angry teenager to make adults feel really small and dumb.

 

If this wasn't the finale, I could have enjoyed seeing a bit more of Jill trying to reach her mother and get her to come to her senses, through pointing out the idiocy of the GR's operating strategy.

 

So what Jill got was a mother who still put the GR ahead of her daughter's safety. But she did get proof that her dad loved her, and would do anything to save her. Which is where I think she can begin healing. One parent is beyond hope, but the other isn't.

[Luckylyn]

I was lukewarm about this show, but the final three episodes were excellent. This episode was was amazing. The acting, the music and the cinematography came together to perfectly underscore the end of the season. This show has made me think more than I normally would about a TV series, but then I'm retired with a lot of time on my hands. The reason I came close to abandoning the show is what many others have pointed out: the seemingly ridiculousness of the Guilty Remnant. I'm not sure that "remembering" the departed is actually the point of their nihilism. I think it might be more about the point of continuing to live and love in a world so uncertain that you can lose your life or the ones you care most about in an instant, without rhyme or reason. Underlying all that hatred is fear. Continuing on is too difficult for them so they have rationalized this cult where they stop caring because caring is too difficult when you can be emotionally devastated in a blink of an eye. The GR is not a new "family." They make sure they cannot become too emotionally involved by limiting communication and individuality. Their family is lost to them and cannot be taken away. The members of the GR are guilty because they are cowards without the courage to continue on and risk loss and pain. The Departure was so pointless and random it could happen again, to anyone. We all know that life is uncertain, but we do so much to preserve it, to increase the odds against losing it, both our own and our loved one's. We get preventative health care, buy the best car seat for our kids, drive carefully, eat a healthy diet and we know we shouldn't smoke. The GR's smoking has nothing to do with remembering, it is a manifestation of the point that it just doesn't matter anymore. Life has become so insecure, so tenuous, and that is what they really want people to remember so they won't be alone in their fear and cowardice. Their anger is at themselves, whether they realize it or not. They have given up to the point where their own lives have lost any joy or meaning and they no longer care if they live or die. Laurie may no longer care about herself, but she still cares about Jill. The idea of losing her to another departure may even have played a role in her attempt to emotionally separate herself from her family. I am looking forward to the next season and where they take this story when they are no longer so hampered by the source material. I'm also looking forward to continuing to read the forum threads about this show. They are always interesting and give me even more to ponder.

I responded to  your post in the Religion thread.

[Pollock]

The Metallica song on strings was beautiful and well chosen. "Nothing Else Matters" I think, right?

Yes, it's from an Apocalyptica's album http://www.apocalyptica.com/albums/plays-metallica-by-four-cellos/

It's awesome, I must have listen to this one 456184519818 times since it came out (cellos + Metallica = jackpot ! Haha !). My heart burst when that song came. 

The version of Jacques Brel's Ne me quitte pas at the beginning was beautiful too. The music in the show is always on point, the piano theme is touching and gets me everytime.

 

What an awesome finale for a brilliant show. This past two years, between Rectify and The Leftovers, television has offered us some truly poetic shit, let me tell ya' !

[Enigma X]

 

...The Leftovers, television has offered us some truly poetic shit, let me tell ya' !

 

Dramatic poetry is actually how I described this last episode (this season and Lost, actually) to people. That does not mean that I did not find a few parts flawed but, overall, there was "a quality of beauty and intensity of emotion regarded as characteristic of poems." (Yep, lifted from Merriam Webster's definition of poetry.)

[ottoDbusdriver]

Tom Perrota, the book's author, is also a showrunner and producer, so, I think he might be the one looking after character development and overall story.  The book is his baby, these are the people he created.  If anyone knows what they are supposed to do, or where they will end up, it would be Mr. Perrota.

 

These tv show characters are very loosely based on the character's created by Perrota that follow kind of similar story lines -- but they have modified them so significantly from the book, and introduced a bunch of characters that aren't even in the book, yet play major parts in the tv show.

 

ETA: Though it's not as bad as say 'Under the Dome', where basically the only thing in common with the book is a few character names and a Dome.

Edited September 9, 2014 by ottoDbusdriver

[Constantinople]

Remember ladies.

 

If you ever want to do something outside of the home, you will be punished.

 

Your entire family will vanish.  You'll become suicidally depressed and pay random strangers to either shoot you or hug you.  You'll hook up with someone whose even more of a head case than you.

 

When you finally decide to kill yourself metaphorically by starting a whole new life on the road, a crazy cult leader's love child will appear out of nowhere to kiss the boo boo away and make you all better because now you can fulfill your destiny.

[Danny Franks]

Remember ladies.

 

If you ever want to do something outside of the home, you will be punished.

 

Your entire family will vanish.  You'll become suicidally depressed and pay random strangers to either shoot you or hug you.  You'll hook up with someone whose even more of a head case than you.

 

When you finally decide to kill yourself metaphorically by starting a whole new life on the road, a crazy cult leader's love child will appear out of nowhere to kiss the boo boo away and make you all better because now you can fulfill your destiny.

 

That's what you took from this show? Well, each to their own.

[izabella]

When you finally decide to kill yourself metaphorically by starting a whole new life on the road, a crazy cult leader's love child will appear out of nowhere to kiss the boo boo away and make you all better because now you can fulfill your destiny.

 

Yes, there she was, moments away from moving to a tropical island and scuba diving the days away, or embarking on a cross-country trip to visit every baseball park in the land, or heading to the airport to visit the pyramids...and, boom!  She's got a bebeh now, so forget all that.

[ShellSeeker]

I thought this was a perfect way to wrap up the season, and it would have worked as a series finale as well. 

 

The most moving scene for me was when Kevin was telling Matt about what he was thinking and doing leading up to 10/14. He finally admitted that he'd been wanting to leave his family, and then the Sudden Departure happened. Then, he rushed to school to find his kids, and they were still there, and so, so, so happy to see him. The kids he'd pretty much decided he was going to leave and walk away from were overcome with joy and relief when he walked through the door. Can you imagine the guilt you would feel? No wonder poor Kevin is such a basket case.

[iMonrey]

 

I don't think it's terrible writing as much as writing what is important to the story versus filling in minutia and spending valuable episode time in small details that would have NO impact whatsoever to the story.

 

The problem is that what's "important to the story" is entirely subjective. For me, knowing how things work, and what the hell is going on, is not just important to the story, but crucial. I realize that for others, just getting some kind of emotional reaction out of it is what's important to them. Therein lies the dichotomy. There are always going to be viewers who are fine with an emotional satisfaction even if they get no concrete substance, story-wise. I am not one of those people. In fact, I am unable to derive any kind of emotional punch from a story that is so vague and ill-defined I can't quite wrap my head around what makes these characters behave the way they do.

 

I think the only way I could really respond to these characters is if the story wasn't framed with a bizarre, unexplainable mystery which I suspect will never be solved. Put them all into a real world I can relate to and I'll have a better chance of connecting to them.

[ganesh]

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect any show to show the motivations of the main characters. Kevin "lost" his family an regained it at the end. That's a fine plot for a show. However, not knowing why he wanted to leave in the first place or why Laurie ended up joining the GR doesn't make the end really earned. That's great they're back together, but did Kevin know why she left? Sure, there's reasonable speculations we can make, but it's a very important part to the story. I don't think it's too nitpicky to want to have known that more definitively. Same thing with Tom leaving. Clearly, having him return was shown to be very important. Not knowing why he left in the first place, then, ok? Now he's back. Is he worried they won't accept him back? Is he sorry he left? 

 

Taking in the show has a whole, I really think TPTBs used the three year jump as a way to put the characters where they wanted them to be without having to any groundwork for it. I really don't think that they truly understood how a world like this would work. And if they did, they did a poor job of translating that to the screen. Perhaps it was deliberate on their part. It was a poor choice. Not that they needed to go over everything in excruciating detail. Structurally, so to speak, which can be done in an interesting way, cf., Outlander.

 

I feel like I've watched a collection of scenes just smattered on the screen than a coherent narrative. Except Nora. I'll concede that this was fairly interesting and use that as an example of what I mean by coherent narrative. 

 

What I find weird is that with fairly minor modifications, the show could have been solid and intriguing. The fact that they know how to put together a narrative; e. g., Nora, is more baffling to me because it strikes me that the 'smattering' of the show was deliberate. 

[Danny Franks]

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect any show to show the motivations of the main characters. Kevin "lost" his family an regained it at the end. That's a fine plot for a show. However, not knowing why he wanted to leave in the first place or why Laurie ended up joining the GR doesn't make the end really earned. That's great they're back together, but did Kevin know why she left? Sure, there's reasonable speculations we can make, but it's a very important part to the story. I don't think it's too nitpicky to want to have known that more definitively. Same thing with Tom leaving. Clearly, having him return was shown to be very important. Not knowing why he left in the first place, then, ok? Now he's back. Is he worried they won't accept him back? Is he sorry he left? 

 

Well I feel like I know exactly why Kevin wanted to leave. I think that 1x09 showed it quite clearly. He was just in trapped in a middle class, existential malaise. He had reached a point in his life where he had a job, a wife, kids, a nice house. And he wasn't happy. That happens to people all the time, and they don't need to have a specific reason for it. The "midlife crisis" isn't just a TV trope, it's a real thing. Kevin felt like he wanted more, but he didn't know what that more was. And then, when he saw everyone around him losing the same thing he'd been thinking about abandoning, then when he saw his children so happy to see him, and so relieved that he hadn't disappeared, he seems to have spiralled into guilt, which then combined with all his other problems into a potent, messed up psyche.

 

Why did Laurie join the GR? Well maybe that will be revealed in season 2, now she has someone to talk to about it in Tom. Which, handily, also means Tom has someone to talk to about why he joined Wayne's cult, and why he left the baby and why he's not waiting at his dad's house for anyone to come home. I hate it when characters explain stuff to other people who already know, so I don't see how we could know their reasoning yet. Yes, Laurie had Meg, but jesus, exposition via sharpie and pad of paper would have been interminable. Tom has had no one to talk to about why he's where he is except Christine. And as if she'd give a shit about anything that wasn't Wayne or herself.

[WearyTraveler]

The problem is that what's "important to the story" is entirely subjective. For me, knowing how things work, and what the hell is going on, is not just important to the story, but crucial. I realize that for others, just getting some kind of emotional reaction out of it is what's important to them. Therein lies the dichotomy. There are always going to be viewers who are fine with an emotional satisfaction even if they get no concrete substance, story-wise. I am not one of those people. In fact, I am unable to derive any kind of emotional punch from a story that is so vague and ill-defined I can't quite wrap my head around what makes these characters behave the way they do.

 

I think the only way I could really respond to these characters is if the story wasn't framed with a bizarre, unexplainable mystery which I suspect will never be solved. Put them all into a real world I can relate to and I'll have a better chance of connecting to them.

 

Fair enough, so answer me my original questions about the details that were being requested by the posters here, namely:

 

1) How does it advance the plot to know that the citizens are complaining to the police, the mayor, the prosecutor? We saw it once with the town hall meeting.  What do we gain by seeing it again and again?

 

2) As for the evolution of the Memorial Day Mayhem, why do we need to see that, exactly? Wouldn't that be gratuitous violence? In order to show the evolution of the day, we'd need to cut out some other scene, what would you sacrifice so you can see completely immaterial, non-plot advancing details? What do we gain by seeing this?

[ganesh]

"Maybe S2" just doesn't fly. It's not a reasonable interpretation of what was presented on the screen. Because that becomes maybe S3, maybe S4. If they're trying to sell me on Kevin losing/regaining family, then there's got to be reasons. It's storytelling 101. I don't think it's too much to ask.

 

What I'm seeing is mostly fanwanking for the gaps in character motivation more than reasonable interpretations of what was presented on screen. It's a fine line to be sure, but I just don't think TPTB unfolded this narrative well. And, to be fair, again, there were plenty of opportunities where Laurie's motivations could have been shown. They did it with Nora. They could have done better here. 

 

I mean, it's not the second hour. It's been 10. It's a fair expectation from the narrative.

[shapeshifter]

Late to the party. I work too hard and too many hours.

I was momentarily tempted to stop watching when Kevin and Matt came back to the riot, but I'm glad I didn't.

So Wayne may have been typical of cult leaders who use their supposed divinity to seduce multiple young girls and spread their seed around, but he isn't in fact a fraud, as he feared. Because I'm pretty sure Kevin wished for his family back and he got it, even a substitute for the vanished fetus.

Urgh. I forgot about Laurie's pregnancy. So Nora and Laurie might now be in quasi competition for adoptive mom.

Also, after the credits rolled I turned to my husband and said, "Oh no, somewhere poor ganesh likely just had an aneurysm"

HAHAHAHA. I said something almost exactly the same. How weird is it that the finale finishes and I think "That was soooo good. My God, Ganesh is going to hate that." I live alone so I said it out loud to myself, which is something people who live alone often do apparently.

Me too. While slogging through this thread (TWoP mods have left a Catholic nun-like impression upon my posting psyche), I was wondering if Ganesh has "disappeared." (=>(

But no. Just page 3. Whew!

Speaking of silly tropes - this episode had two of Hollywood's worst. The perfectly rectangle hole that Matt and Kevin dug for Patty's body. I mean, has anyone in Hollywood ever dug a hole? (stupid question, I know) But when burying a body, the hole must always have perfect 90 degree corners.

Oy. Sigh. This was the second one this week. The Bridge had one too. I would like to think Breaking Bad would never do that. Anyone recall?

http://previously.tv/the-leftovers/god-complex/

Kevin rushes into the burning GR compound to pull Jill to safety. (Uh, and leave an awful lot of other people just lying there.)

If he hadn't just buried Patti, he might have instead stopped to save the first one, and Jill would've died. Or were the others he encountered before her all dead?

....Maybe Wayne had something to do with it [10/14]. He perhaps granted a "wish" to someone to rid them of whomever they wanted gone in that moment and "poof" all these people went away. Maybe he was a fraud, maybe he wasn't. We don't really know the wish that he granted for Kevin, but we kind of guess what it is.

Interesting theory for the cause of the disappearance.

This show uses a lot of parallels:

• Matt as the pastoral counselor in the diner (digging a perfectly rectangular, 6 ft. deep grave gives one an appetite)--

  who prepares Kevin to meet Wayne as the spiritual healer in the stall of a freakin public restroom.

• Laurie trying to fish the cigarette lighter gift from Jill out of the sewer drain--

  Kevin goes back to get Jill out of the burning house.

• Christine abandons her baby via the restroom which ultimately grants Nora her wish--

  Wayne grants his final wish to Kevin in a restroom.

And:

I loved the symmetry of the guy in the parking lot asking Tom if he needed help with Kevin realizing that he needed help and calling Matt. The whole burial scene was really moving.

Thanks, Kris117, for figuring out the verse was from Job.

Job indeed. Guy can't go to the john/go for a quickie/ go for a run/go to the dry cleaner's/go to the dogs without banging up against the inexplicable.

Hee! Edited September 9, 2014 by shapeshifter

[WearyTraveler]

"Maybe S2" just doesn't fly. It's not a reasonable interpretation of what was presented on the screen. Because that becomes maybe S3, maybe S4. If they're trying to sell me on Kevin losing/regaining family, then there's got to be reasons. It's storytelling 101. I don't think it's too much to ask.

 

What I'm seeing is mostly fanwanking for the gaps in character motivation more than reasonable interpretations of what was presented on screen. It's a fine line to be sure, but I just don't think TPTB unfolded this narrative well. And, to be fair, again, there were plenty of opportunities where Laurie's motivations could have been shown. They did it with Nora. They could have done better here. 

 

I mean, it's not the second hour. It's been 10. It's a fair expectation from the narrative.

 

I'll give you Laurie (partially) and Tom, but I can't give you Kevin.

 

Kevin explained in Episode 9 exactly how he was feeling before the departure, and we saw that he was so dissatisfied with his life that he decided to go boink an almost random stranger. He wondered out loud to his father: "why isn't it enough?".  We saw his midlife crisis very clearly.

 

We saw how Laurie was feeling about her husband. She hadn't even told him she was pregnant.  We saw her struggle with the state of their relationship.  We saw her struggle with being pregnant.  I believe we saw her lose her baby (the show laid all the groundwork for the baby to have been a departure, not an abortion, given the context of the episode and the fact that we were seeing reactions to disappearances right at that moment, I don't think there's any traction to the theory the baby was aborted).  These are all good starters for her motivation to join the GR.

 

Tom, we don't know, I agree. We haven't been told much about him.  I suspect that his relationship with his bio dad will have something to do with it, since the show chose to introduce that character and show us his interaction with Tom, but I'll concede that's speculative at this point.

[shapeshifter]

It took me 10 frickin' episodes to realize why the series title. "Leftovers" to me mean: "Yay! Home cooked food I can just pop in the microwave." But to the general public, they typically mean something unappealing.

ETA: I don't mean that I find the show unappealing. I mean that the characters see themselves as unappealing leftovers.

Edited September 9, 2014 by shapeshifter

[Snakelite]

The problem is that what's "important to the story" is entirely subjective. For me, knowing how things work, and what the hell is going on, is not just important to the story, but crucial. I realize that for others, just getting some kind of emotional reaction out of it is what's important to them. Therein lies the dichotomy. There are always going to be viewers who are fine with an emotional satisfaction even if they get no concrete substance, story-wise. I am not one of those people. In fact, I am unable to derive any kind of emotional punch from a story that is so vague and ill-defined I can't quite wrap my head around what makes these characters behave the way they do.

I think the only way I could really respond to these characters is if the story wasn't framed with a bizarre, unexplainable mystery which I suspect will never be solved. Put them all into a real world I can relate to and I'll have a better chance of connecting to them.

[editorgrrl]

As for Nora, well, it's not like she can just have that baby because she found it—on somebody else's porch. It's a corny trope that a childless person suddenly comes upon a motherless child - and voila! New family!

 

Speaking of silly tropes - this episode had two of Hollywood's worst. The perfectly rectangle hole that Matt and Kevin dug for Patty's body. I mean, has anyone in Hollywood ever dug a hole? (stupid question, I know) But when burying a body, the hole must always have perfect 90 degree corners.

 

According to TV Tropes, season 1 had at least 66 additional tropes, from The Alcoholic (Kevin) to Yank the Dog's Chain (Matt's casino adventure).

[Snakelite]

Job asked "Why?"and essentially God replied "Because I can." The reason for the departure has to remain a mystery and random. Matt appears correct that it can't be the Rapture given who was taken. I have no idea whether it was Job's god, aliens or whatever. The point is how the people who are left react. The series is based on a novel I think they improved but could only rewrite so much. I love the show but I believe they focus too much on the remembering the departed and not enough on the people's thoughts as to the why of what happened and how they react depending on their personal beliefs. We know Matt doesn't think it's the rapture but I'm not sure what it is he does believe. Would church attendance go down or up? Where are the people praying for their own departure? Wouldn't more cults be built around someone's claim of why it happened rather than remembering the departed and dealing with the remaining people's grief? People would want to do something to try to protect themselves and their loved ones from departing or to depart themselves based on their personal view of the event. I hope next season gives us at least one episode showing people's reactions weeks or months after it happens. There are huge untapped areas as far as the plot, but solving the mystery will never be one of them. That would be an entirely different show.

[Cardie]

Urgh. I forgot about Laurie's pregnancy. So Nora and Laurie might now be in quasi competition for adoptive mom.

 

I at first thought that Tom and Laurie would return home but after reading others' posts, they will probably take off together, or at least take up residence somewhere other than chez Garvey.  

[Kris117]

That's what makes Laurie worse, in my eyes. Because if she just didn't give a shit about anyone but herself, then that's fine. She's just a dick. But she does still care about Jill and Tom, and even about Kevin. Yet she still turns her back on them and gets involved with this cult of dipshits. She knows she's hurting them, and she continued to do it, she tossed their love away like a cigarette lighter down a drain.

 

I think that she thinks she's doing it for her family. Whether it's because she feels she betrayed them by being unhappy with her life before the event, or as atonement for not wanting a third child, I'm not sure, but I get the feeling that she thinks she is sacrificing herself with the GR for them. I can't pinpoint an exact reason for that feeling, and I certainly think she would have been better off staying with her family, but she has an exasperation about her when she sees her family, as if they don't understand why she became part of the GR. She certainly hasn't tried to bring any of them into the GR.

 

Maybe that's why some of the GR are there, believing they are sacrificing themselves on behalf of their own families or the rest of the community, until everyone comes to see the disappearance the way they do. It hasn't been shown if the GR are made up of single individuals or if there are family groups involved. 

 

It makes sense to me that the GR are getting information about the leftovers by having a mole somewhere. They are getting the money to buy those expensive mannequins from somewhere, so they could easily be getting information that way, too. Patti would have been the obvious conduit, but she's gone now. I wonder whether this Memorial Day demonstration was a coordinated effort by the GR in cities all over the country. 

 

Well I feel like I know exactly why Kevin wanted to leave. I think that 1x09 showed it quite clearly. He was just in trapped in a middle class, existential malaise. He had reached a point in his life where he had a job, a wife, kids, a nice house. And he wasn't happy. That happens to people all the time, and they don't need to have a specific reason for it. The "midlife crisis" isn't just a TV trope, it's a real thing. Kevin felt like he wanted more, but he didn't know what that more was. And then, when he saw everyone around him losing the same thing he'd been thinking about abandoning, then when he saw his children so happy to see him, and so relieved that he hadn't disappeared, he seems to have spiralled into guilt, which then combined with all his other problems into a potent, messed up psyche.

 

I agree with all of that. It was clear to me that he was questioning the meaning of his existence, especially in the conversation with his dad, and trying to come to terms with the idea that being a small-town cop, husband, and father, was what he was, and that it was good enough. Instead of feeling that life was passing him by, or that he hadn't done anything with his life, he needed to realize that living the life he was living to the best of his ability was why he was on earth. He could be out of a novel by Camus. That he would feel guilty about his regrets about life in the face of overwhelming tragedy in the lives of others, and his children's gratitude for having him, makes sense to me. 

[Cardie]

In an interview in New York magazine, which I've posted a link to in the media thread, Brenneman said that what she worked out with Lindelof was that Laurie started to feel that she was becoming more and more unstable and was actually a danger to her children if she stayed with them. She imagines Laurie served as therapist in the immediate aftermath of the Sudden Departure and got weighed down by all the grief and anger patients brought to her. She imagines that Patti recruited her in much the way we see Laurie recruiting Meg. Maybe this will show up onscreen eventually.

 

I don't think there is any mystery man or mole responsible for the GR having so much info about the departed. Surely everyone who lost someone was interviewed by every media outlet in town and described what happened at the moment of the disappearance. Just combing through old newspapers would probably be sufficient. GR members have a lot of time on their hands and are careful researchers.

[ganesh]

I shouldn't have to consult additional media in order to gather the information needed to successfully watch a television show. If TPTBs intend this, then they've failed in their job to present the show properly. Honestly, not to be so strict, for the sake of just being strict, but if it's not derived from the show, whether seen onscreen or reasonably interpreted from watching the show, then it's not canon. Frankly, I don't give a shit what the actors or TPTBs say about the show. Beyond like, this fight scene was hard, or we scouted all day and found the perfect location because the B director had to get out and pee. 

 

Game of Thrones is notorious for this and I can't stand it. Literally, *every* big moment that happens and they're all over the place "here's what so and so thinks why he got his nose chopped off." That didn't really happen so I wasn't spoiling anything. 

 

It's irrelevant what AB "worked out". I didn't derive Laurie's motivations from patiently watching 10 hours of show and paying careful attention. Therefore, the show didn't establish Laurie's motivation for joining the GR. 

 

To be fair, if she was allowed to speak, that might have been different. However, I think they really dropped the ball with the Jill/Laurie scenes in this episode, even if they couldn't talk, because it would have been a good opportunity to convey this. 

Edited September 10, 2014 by ganesh

[Constantinople]

Fair enough, so answer me my original questions about the details that were being requested by the posters here, namely:

 

1) How does it advance the plot to know that the citizens are complaining to the police, the mayor, the prosecutor? We saw it once with the town hall meeting.  What do we gain by seeing it again and again?

 

2) As for the evolution of the Memorial Day Mayhem, why do we need to see that, exactly? Wouldn't that be gratuitous violence? In order to show the evolution of the day, we'd need to cut out some other scene, what would you sacrifice so you can see completely immaterial, non-plot advancing details? What do we gain by seeing this?

For me, it strains credulity that the GR stages multiple B&Es on one night to steal personal photographs and no one files any police reports, the police don't investigate, no arrests are made.

[Pollock]

Fair enough, so answer me my original questions about the details that were being requested by the posters here, namely:

1) How does it advance the plot to know that the citizens are complaining to the police, the mayor, the prosecutor? We saw it once with the town hall meeting.  What do we gain by seeing it again and again?

2) As for the evolution of the Memorial Day Mayhem, why do we need to see that, exactly? Wouldn't that be gratuitous violence? In order to show the evolution of the day, we'd need to cut out some other scene, what would you sacrifice so you can see completely immaterial, non-plot advancing details? What do we gain by seeing this?

 

1) Understand the violence of the explosion at the end. Because of the GR, because nobody knows (or explains) the causes of the Departure, there is a lot of latent anger. You can feel throughout the season that the population is increasingly aggraveted with the GR, as they don't let them move on from their Departed.

 

2) same thing. It was the first big "strike" against GR.

If we haven't been shawn those things, people would complain we didn't see a progression and the town went from 0 to 60 without anykind of explanation or forseeing. And I would be one of those people !

 

For me, it strains credulity that the GR stages multiple B&Es on one night to steal personal photographs and no one files any police reports, the police don't investigate, no arrests are made.

 

That was strange indeed. We just got one complain during the council about curfew. 

I'm not familiar with US laws but I just thought the police knows it GR but couldn't prove WHO did it within and they can't arrest everybody for ones fault ?

[ganesh]

That's a fair point. "We really can't just arrest them all for it because we don't know who was doing the stealing." I can live with that if it happened. 

 

However, this is again an important detail that they just refused to address *despite* Kevin and Nora actually talking about it. Nora said, "I think they stole some pictures of mine." Kevin could have said: We went through a ton of reports but we can't pin it on anyone so we couldn't make arrests. 

 

I think it would have been better if the GR were able to talk to themselves, but refused to communicate "in public". 

 

 

According to TV Tropes, season 1 had at least 66 additional tropes, from The Alcoholic (Kevin) to Yank the Dog's Chain (Matt's casino adventure).

I missed this. It's hilarious.

Edited September 10, 2014 by ganesh

[Constantinople]

I'm not familiar with US laws but I just thought the police knows it GR but couldn't prove WHO did it within and they can't arrest everybody for ones fault ?

It's extremely difficult for the police to prove someone is guilty of a crime if they make no effort to investigate the crime, but that would require that the police, including Officer Bozo, their chief, do their job.

Also, under the criminal conspiracy laws, it's possible to arrest pretty much everyone in the GR. Not just those who actually broke into people's houses, but those who drove them around, the decoys at the the school, and pretty much anyone back at the GR house who participated in the planning or assisted it.

[ganesh]

In that vein, it's also possible that they could have gotten a search warrant from a sympathetic judge to search the main GR house looking for the pictures. 

[Pollock]

Also, under the criminal conspiracy laws, it's possible to arrest pretty much everyone in the GR. Not just those who actually broke into people's houses, but those who drove them around, the decoys at the the school, and pretty much anyone back at the GR house who participated in the planning or assisted it.

Oh ok ! I think I learn something today©SouthPark. Thank you !

So... plot hole it is indeed. I guess it was more important for the town to find Baby Jesus than photos !

[stillshimpy]

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect any show to show the motivations of the main characters. Kevin "lost" his family an regained it at the end. That's a fine plot for a show. However, not knowing why he wanted to leave in the first place or why Laurie ended up joining the GR doesn't make the end really earned. That's great they're back together, but did Kevin know why she left?

Yay! ganesh is alive and well :-) I will give you Laurie without a problem. If this was all we ever saw of the story, Laurie's motivations are vague to the point of requiring an awful lot of work on the part of the audience. Now, whereas I see the merit of "if I don't get it from what is onscreen, then the showrunners haven't done their job" , but it can be taken too far and I've seen it taken too far with Battlestar Galactica in which they actually did crap like have extra movies to answer things like "What happened when that Six rounded the corner?" in the show it was a great mystery and when they showed what happened? It was a letdown. Fun fan debates died and became "Oh. Well, now we know." It's one of the reasons hardly anyone really talks about the show any longer.

A lot of people, not everyone, find value in imagining what character's motivations might be , but it starts from information given within the story. I agree, they really skimped too much and waited too long on revealing enough about her and it's not like with Tom or Christine, where the bulk of their story wasn't "There they are in Wayne's cult!" Christine was little more than a minor character (in fact, she's my least favorite kind of female character...someone who exists to be a womb with a protector). Laurie on the other hand? We saw how torn she was at points. We saw what her absence was doing to her daughter.

I liked reading Amy Brenneman's thoughts on what happened with Laurie, but when they shot this season that wasn't actually coming across. I would have assumed it was her baby disappearing (and going to stare at the statue just convinces me that's what happened) from what I was shown. It does matter within the story, because the GR and Laurie were major story-lines and they were vague to the point of being irritating for eight episodes. That's two months. There's a crap load of stuff to watch in the world, making me wait two months for anything resembling an answer is not a wise move. Revealing in interviews that what I managed to piece together still isn't the answer just frustrates me more.

But I can't give you Kevin. They've been hinting all along that he cheated and that he was cheating during the departure. Although he's a stunningly attractive guy, there are things that are common within human experience and middle-life crises and how they manifest are common enough that I didn't need that spelled out. It's not quite on the same obvious level of "this water is wet" but it isn't a leap. Sort of like I didn't need a lot of explanation for how Christine got pregnant, or why she was susceptible to Wayne in the first place.

Not every man (or woman) will have an existential dilemma in their forties, but so many do, it wasn't difficult to accurately guess. A lot of people reach their mid-forties and have a "Is this all there is?" reaction. It frequently coincides with their kids starting to go off to college, by the way, so they even added in details they didn't stress.

So in some areas, yes, I agree, the story had to coast on emotional impact when it came to the GR and Laurie. That's not going to work for everyone and hell, they even stacked the deck against it working for everyone by having her clearly do something heinous (leave her family in the wake of a global tragedy, including a developing young teen girl who was REALLY screwed over there) to participate in Organized Dickery.

The only real explanation I got was "Well, clearly Kevin was going to have to fess up about where he was....and even if he didn't, a lot of people would snap like a wet carrot if some unseen force removes parts of their body in the flash of an instant." I mean, I don't have to think of it as a "baby" to get how much that would fuck someone up.

So by the time they got around to revealing what might have caused her to do this, she was already in the hugely unsympathetic category and having her teamed with Patti...who was just evil throughout...didn't help.

[Constantinople]

Well I feel like I know exactly why Kevin wanted to leave. I think that 1x09 showed it quite clearly. He was just in trapped in a middle class, existential malaise. He had reached a point in his life where he had a job, a wife, kids, a nice house. And he wasn't happy. That happens to people all the time, and they don't need to have a specific reason for it. The "midlife crisis" isn't just a TV trope, it's a real thing. Kevin felt like he wanted more, but he didn't know what that more was. And then, when he saw everyone around him losing the same thing he'd been thinking about abandoning, then when he saw his children so happy to see him, and so relieved that he hadn't disappeared, he seems to have spiralled into guilt, which then combined with all his other problems into a potent, messed up psyche.

 

 

...Kevin. They've been hinting all along that he cheated and that he was cheating during the departure. Although he's a stunningly attractive guy, there are things that are common within human experience and middle-life crises and how they manifest are common enough that I didn't need that spelled out. It's not quite on the same obvious level of "this water is wet" but it isn't a leap. Sort of like I didn't need a lot of explanation for how Christine got pregnant, or why she was susceptible to Wayne in the first place.

Not every man (or woman) will have an existential dilemma in their forties, but so many do, it wasn't difficult to accurately guess. A lot of people reach their mid-forties and have a "Is this all there is?" reaction. It frequently coincides with their kids starting to go off to college, by the way, so they even added in details they didn't stress.

I can appreciate that Deputy Dipshit is having a multi-year mid-life crisis, but ultimately I found his story kind of boring.

Also, given he was an opinionated fuck-up both before and after the Vanishing/Disappearance/Rapture, I find it hard to believe Junior was promoted to Chief of Police after daddy went nuts. The councilwoman/Mayor doesn't strike me as the kind of person who would promote Kevin just beacause she's dating his dad (on the other hand, she's stupid enough that she only thinks something's up with the GR after they stage their second mass B&E). Plus, Kevin Sr's value as a reference would have plummeted after torching the library.

[ganesh]

I liked reading Amy Brenneman's thoughts on what happened with Laurie, but when they shot this season that wasn't actually coming across.

 

I appreciate the actor putting in the work to establish Laurie's motivations for herself. I question whether she was allowed to let that show on screen, however. As a TPTB, you have to identify the main things you want to get across in the show and you want to make sure you show that properly. We don't even know if it's a thing with the GR that you're not supposed to ask someone else why they are there. Laurie didn't want to tell Liv Tyler, but that doesn't mean it was some rule. 

 

I'm on the fence about Kevin so I'll concede the point because I think they severely dropped the ball on Laurie, so regardless, the impact they were going for in the end, with Kevin regaining his family fell flat. 

 

There's just so many opportunities over the last ten episodes, as is, that so much major stuff could have been addressed without changing the entire show so much. 

[Danny Franks]

I appreciate the actor putting in the work to establish Laurie's motivations for herself. I question whether she was allowed to let that show on screen, however. As a TPTB, you have to identify the main things you want to get across in the show and you want to make sure you show that properly. We don't even know if it's a thing with the GR that you're not supposed to ask someone else why they are there. Laurie didn't want to tell Liv Tyler, but that doesn't mean it was some rule. 

 

I'm on the fence about Kevin so I'll concede the point because I think they severely dropped the ball on Laurie, so regardless, the impact they were going for in the end, with Kevin regaining his family fell flat. 

 

There's just so many opportunities over the last ten episodes, as is, that so much major stuff could have been addressed without changing the entire show so much. 

 

I think they did exactly what they intended to with Laurie. They kept her reasons mysterious and unknowable. And frustrating. Because that's how they were to her family as well. For me, it works. Why let the viewers know everything about Laurie reasons, but deprive Kevin and Jill of an explanation? I think we were supposed to feel that about Laurie. She wasn't remotely sympathetic, even when she had her flashes of true grief or regret, and she was representing an organisation that was deliberately, obtusely 'other'. 

 

Not only that, but as I've said, it's tough to deliver exposition via handwritten notes on paper. Does anyone want to see Laurie write an essay for Meg to read, explaining the GR and why she joined them? I get the feeling that would have drawn even more criticism. But ultimately, this seems to be another element that really doesn't matter too much, to the story. Laurie left, and Kevin and Jill have to deal with it. That's the story. Laurie left, when it was Kevin who had initially thought about it. Kevin was left as a single parent to a daughter he was losing touch with, and he didn't know how to handle it.

 

Stuff you consider major, I consider completely inconsequential to the story I've watched unfold during these ten episodes.

[iMonrey]

 

Fair enough, so answer me my original questions about the details that were being requested by the posters here, namely:

 

1) How does it advance the plot to know that the citizens are complaining to the police, the mayor, the prosecutor? We saw it once with the town hall meeting.  What do we gain by seeing it again and again?

 

2) As for the evolution of the Memorial Day Mayhem, why do we need to see that, exactly? Wouldn't that be gratuitous violence? In order to show the evolution of the day, we'd need to cut out some other scene, what would you sacrifice so you can see completely immaterial, non-plot advancing details? What do we gain by seeing this?

 

What I find hard to believe is that the people of this town haven't burned down the GR complex before now. Like, after they broke into their homes and stole their pictures. We should have gotten more of a reaction to that. The lack of consequence to the previous crime makes the second one kind of absurd, because everyone should have seen it coming and taken precautions. If not through proper authorities, then on their own. Changing locks, standing guard, deadbolts. That sort of thing. Silent alarms. I don't know how the GR keep getting into these peoples' houses.

 

Honestly, I cannot simply fan-wank and overlook this. When Nora got up, went downstairs and found the dummies sitting at the kitchen table, the only thing I could think was "Didn't you HEAR anyone coming into the house? Because damn, those GR people sure must be stealth." They compounded the problem by showing the dummy of the kid with Down's Syndrome in his bedroom. Which, I assume, is just down the hall from where his parents sleep. So, WOW, they're pretty sound sleepers too.

 

They could have fixed this by maybe having a scene where some family does catch the GR in their house, and like, beats the shit out of them. Not only would I have enjoyed that, but it would have gone a long way towards not making the whole scenario look like a bizarro version of How The Grinch Stole Christmas, with the Whos in Whoville just collectively waking up all at once and realizing what the GR had done.

[ganesh]

Why let the viewers know everything about Laurie reasons, but deprive Kevin and Jill of an explanation?

 

That's not the correct question. She's a main character. Her membership in the GR is an essential plot point to the show. The pov of the viewers is omniscient over the course of the season. Knowing her motivations for leaving is essential to understanding why she decided to rejoined the family.

 

Whether Kevin or Jill knew is irrelevant to the unfolding of the narrative they wanted to achieve with this season to the viewers. Jill obviously didn't know. It hasn't been established if Tom knew. I know nothing of Tom's motivations. He left, now he's back. Ok. And I care why?

 

Not only that, but as I've said, it's tough to deliver exposition via handwritten notes on paper. Does anyone want to see Laurie write an essay for Meg to read, explaining the GR and why she joined them?

 

Yes, absolutely. They literally did that. One can convey the proper character motivations in a variety of ways. They even had an opportunity to do this in the show as it existed: Laurie wrote a letter to Kevin and Liv Tyler read it out loud. That's basically the same as "Does anyone want to see Laurie write an essay for Meg to read, explaining the GR and why she joined them?" Since they already had Laurie write and essay for Meg to read, they might as well have provided some information relevant to the resolution of the season.

 

I mean come on. This isn't hard. I can riff off about 50 different ways they could have played the Meg/Kevin/Laurie scene where something useful could have been conveyed to the viewers in order to pay off in the finale. 

 

I hardly find knowing the motivation for a main character that has been clearly shown to be a major plot over 10 hours of show and critical to the resolution of the entire season narrative to be inconsequential. It is an entirely reasonable expectation of storytelling. I'm not asking for a minute by minute account of Laurie from 1014 to joining the GR. 

 

The lack of consequence to the previous crime makes the second one kind of absurd, because everyone should have seen it coming and taken precautions. If not through proper authorities, then on their own. Changing locks, standing guard, deadbolts. That sort of thing. Silent alarms. I don't know how the GR keep getting into these peoples' houses.

 

Since they've shown people riding around throwing rocks at the GR, I'm surprised a neighborhood watch wasn't formed after the break ins and more GR weren't attacked at night. "I thought they were going to break in again." I mean ffs, some teenager got shot to death in Florida simply for walking home at night from the convenience store. 

 

It seems like TPTB really needed us to suspend disbelief a *huge* amount to pull this off. From what I've observed, in order for the show to work, there's just a lot fanwanking and excusing needed. Holistically, it just doesn't hold up. 

Edited September 10, 2014 by ganesh

[Danny Franks]

Yet you ignore my point about it really not mattering what her reasons were. The story is that she left, not why she left. Just like it doesn't matter why the departed were taken. What matters is how people deal with it.

[Cozmicmyst]

A lot of people think that Laurie is a horrible mother. She is, but, the her screaming out "Jill" and pointing to the burning house, was definitely character growth, she's not a great mother, but when it comes down to her daughter's life, she will talk if she has to.

[larapu2000]

I didn't get the impression Nora was leaving town, I got the impression she was joining the GR.  

[ganesh]

I think not showing her motivations *with the intent being her rejoining Kevin at the end* (which I do believe was planned ahead) is a flat out cheat and/or expecting her motivations to be shown isn't that much to ask. I fundamentally disagree that her motivations are irrelevant. That's just excusing TPTBs for bad structure/storytelling. Not knowing why she joined the GR invalidated her re joining Kevin in this finale. It's too much of a price for me to buy into the show. I'll even concede the ridiculousness of the B&Es, as others pointed out. 

 

It seems pretty much agreed overall that her motivations weren't really shown. It's a question of their relevance to the narrative. From what I've read. I don't see how you can have a conclusion/resolution with basically no starting point. I'm questioning basic storytelling mechanisms and whether TPTBs got too full of themselves, basically shooting themselves in the foot in terms of developing a coherent narrative. Dismissing this as inconsequential is just condescending. 

Edited September 10, 2014 by ganesh

[iMonrey]

 

Yet you ignore my point about it really not mattering what her reasons were. The story is that she left, not why she left. Just like it doesn't matter why the departed were taken. What matters is how people deal with it.

 

Doesn't matter to who? Again, what "matters" is entirely subjective. 

 

I hate to keep raising the specter of Lost, but since this show is from the same writer, it's unfortunately unavoidable. I'm sure there are lots of Lost fans who thought it didn't "matter" what the secret of the island really was because they were satisfied just watching the characters interact with one another. I was not one of those people though. 

 

In the same vein, I can't say it doesn't "matter" to me what happened to the departed, or it doesn't "matter" why Laurie left her family. I can't reasonably connect with any of these characters or this story if I don't know those reasons. It just seems all very superficial to me, ignoring the foundation of their existence in favor of some kind of voyeuristic peek into one specific chapter in the life of people I don't know. 

[izabella]

I know nothing of Tom's motivations. He left, now he's back. Ok. And I care why?

 

That's exactly how I feel about Tom.  In fact, when people reference him on these threads, I always have to think a moment as to who Tom is. 

 

I didn't get the impression Nora was leaving town, I got the impression she was joining the GR.

 

I assumed she was leaving town since she packed a suitcase.  She wouldn't have done that to join the GR, since you give up everything when you join in favor of white clothes and cigarettes.

[larapu2000]

Liv Tyler had a suitcase when she went to the GR.  So that's why I made that connection.

[izabella]

Liv Tyler had a suitcase when she went to the GR.  So that's why I made that connection.

 

Did she?  I wonder what she had in there.  Maybe underwear and a toothbrush?

[larapu2000]

She had some sweater and told Laurie that she was saving that one "for last."

[scrb]

Pretty repulsed by the French song over the opening montage.  DL is pretty pretentious.

 

Edit: at the ending of the episode, a happy ending for now, you get the same spare piano music.

 

Pretty sure it as the same one used in one of the Lost episodes after some regular died.

 

Blatant emotional manipulation a la Spielburg.

Edited September 11, 2014 by scrb

[Sofie Fatale]

A lot of people think that Laurie is a horrible mother. She is, but, the her screaming out "Jill" and pointing to the burning house, was definitely character growth, she's not a great mother, but when it comes down to her daughter's life, she will talk if she has to.

I still think she's a horrible mother. Despite knowing that the macabre bit of B&E was going to bring down the wrath of the townspeople on the GR headquarters, she STILL let her daughter stay and be a part of that bullshit. I have kids and there's no way I'd let them remain there. Teenager or not, I would've had her removed forcibly if need be. No wonder Kevin had a look of pure hatred for her at the end. Whatever warm feelings he had for her are dead. So selfish.

[Danny Franks]

Doesn't matter to who? Again, what "matters" is entirely subjective. 

 

 

It doesn't matter to me, for one. But, more importantly, it clearly doesn't matter to the writers of the show. And so I think calling for answers to questions the showrunners don't care about is going to be an ultimately futile and frustrating experience. As I can see watching the show has been for some of you guys. This doesn't seem to be some nitpicky little inconsistency, but the underlying premise of the entire show.

 

I still think she's a horrible mother. Despite knowing that the macabre bit of B&E was going to bring down the wrath of the townspeople on the GR headquarters, she STILL let her daughter stay and be a part of that bullshit. I have kids and there's no way I'd let them remain there. Teenager or not, I would've had her removed forcibly if need be. No wonder Kevin had a look of pure hatred for her at the end. Whatever warm feelings he had for her are dead. So selfish.

 

 

I think the phrase, "too little, too late" would definitely apply. She spoke, sure, and she let Kevin know that Jill was in danger. But not until after Kevin had asked her, multiple times, to talk to him, and Jill had given her that lighter that asked her "don't forget me". And then Jill herself had demanded that she "talk". Laurie ignored the wishes of her family at every turn, in favour of her own selfishness. An inversion of Kevin's attitude before the Departure, which is perhaps at least partially deliberate on her part. I don't know. But in the end, it was Kevin who stuck around for Jill, and Kevin who was trying to make sure Tom was okay. Laurie checked out, and she shouldn't be allowed back in.

 

I'm hoping that the look of anger on Kevin's face, and the way both he and Jill seemed to look at Nora with happiness at the end, means that Laurie needs to find something new for her life.

[Gwen-Stacys]

I'm on the fence about Kevin so I'll concede the point because I think they severely dropped the ball on Laurie, so regardless, the impact they were going for in the end, with Kevin regaining his family fell flat. 

But he didn't regain his family though? That look he shot Laurie while Jill was being treated (and the way he blatantly carried their daughter right past her) spoke volumes. He's done with her.

He did, however, reconnect with Jill by showing her that he actually gave a shit about her. There was someone in her life that wasn't just going to abandon her. He might not be all there in the head, but he'd run into a burning building for her with no hesitation if he had to. For a teenager who's been abandoned by both her mother and her brother and left with the one person she always though was going to leave her (re: her comment to Tom in the flashback episode) that's a pretty big frickin deal.

But Laurie and Tom? They're still nonfactors. He still doesn't even know where Tom is, to be honest. I think the end was more of him (and Jill) rounding a corner, and being willing to move on with his life. And being satisfied with it. And being rewarded for simply trying, because trying IS enough sometimes.

 

That's not the correct question. She's a main character. Her membership in the GR is an essential plot point to the show. The pov of the viewers is omniscient over the course of the season. Knowing her motivations for leaving is essential to understanding why she decided to rejoined the family.

No to butt in, but...in my opinion, it is the correct question. From the beginning the viewers have been as much in the dark as the characters about certain things. We discover bits of information organically, when a character decides to share it or it's pertinent to the story. It isn't poor storytelling, as there are many different was to tell a story, it's just different. And, again in my opinion, I think is works in terms of The Leftovers as a whole. The point is very the viewer to be in the moment with the characters (mostly Kevin), so how are we going to feel as confused, betrayed, and disgusted as Kevin does (because that was a look of the purest of disgusts he gave his ex-wife at the end) if we know Laurie's motivations and even kind of sort of sympathize with her? It ruins the effect and the narrative. But YMMV.

[ShellSeeker]

I'm not asking for a minute by minute account of Laurie from 1014 to joining the GR. 

 

For me it was very clear by the end of the flashback episode why she joined the GR. Her unborn child vanished. She didn't choose to terminate the pregnancy, the fetus just disappeared. Some unseen force penetrated her body and took her child. No wonder she turned into a complete nut job. I can see why she bought into the GR's relentlessly nihilistic narrative: that life is meaningless and pointless, any control anyone thinks they have is simply an illusion, and there's no point to anything since it can all be gone in the blink of an eye. Because that's what happened to her. One minute, she was looking at her unborn child on a sonogram, pondering the implications of having another child, considering what it would mean for the children she already had, thinking about what this would mean for her already troubled marriage, and so on. And the next, poof, the baby was gone without a trace. I'd be wacko too.

 

Up until that point, I couldn't understand what would have compelled her to join the GR, but after that, it made more sense. And I think it was a profound enough experience that she not only joined the GR, but embraced it to the point that she seemed to become Patti's second in command. It was Laurie that made the final call about whether to carry out the Memorial Day stunt. It was Laurie that we saw sitting in Patti's office going through the binders. 

 

In the end, though, it seems to be Meg who will emerge as the next Patti. Liv Tyler did a great job portraying the fanaticism of a zealot. Even injured and beaten to a pulp, she was happy that the GR's horrible stunt had caused so much violence and destruction.