S23.E04: Unintended Consequences

[Door County Cherry]

Quote

An unexpected witness appears when Shaw and Riley investigate a real estate agent's murder. 

 

[Xeliou66]

Just for the record, this episode will air this week as episode 4, episode 3 that aired last week was titled Turn the Page. Maybe a new thread can be started for last week’s episode now that the forums are back up.

[shapeshifter]

39 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Just for the record, this episode will air this week as episode 4, episode 3 that aired last week was titled Turn the Page. Maybe a new thread can be started for last week’s episode now that the forums are back up.

Thanks for the heads up.
I just created a thread for S23.E03: Turn the Page here: 
forums.primetimer.com/topic/143011-s23e03-turn-the-page

Paging @Door County Cherry…
(to change the title of this thread to S23.E04…)
Thanks!

 

[Broderbits]

Not sure I can accept that a jury would believe a witness who was so tainted. Even though the state dropped child porn charges, couldn't he be held on federal charges?

[Ohiopirate02]

8 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

Not sure I can accept that a jury would believe a witness who was so tainted. Even though the state dropped child porn charges, couldn't he be held on federal charges?

Yeah, he's going to get a visit by the US Marshalls very soon.  I was waiting for them to show up at the courthouse.

[Madding crowd]

I don’t like Maroun. She always acts like she is better than Price and he never lives up to her expectations. I think they could find another way to go after the video guy but it wouldn’t be right to set a murderer free and let people think the victim was a drug addict stealing from her clients.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Broderbits said:

Not sure I can accept that a jury would believe a witness who was so tainted. Even though the state dropped child porn charges, couldn't he be held on federal charges?

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Yeah, he's going to get a visit by the US Marshalls very soon.  I was waiting for them to show up at the courthouse.

I forgot about that. I think The Closer had a few episodes where Brenda of the LAPD would make a deal, and then Fritz of the FBI would come in and make the arrest. 
It's one thing if the writers expect us to figure this out. But it's another thing to just leave Nolan and Maroun acting like the guy making and selling child pornography was just going to walk. 
There wasn’t even the usual chilling warning to the guy that he’d better be sure to not get arrested in the future because he might not get out alive.

Also, in the old days of L&O, the NYPD would've realized that after the witness was busted for porn, there was a chance he really did record the murder and just didn't want to admit it earlier because it would lead to his having recorded the 14-year-old in The. Same. House!
So they'd go through his videos. There'd be complaining about the depravity of some, of course. Maybe they'd find something that had been deleted. Maybe they'd find nothing. But there wasn't even a throwaway line about how it turned out everything had been permanently overwritten or deleted.

Edited February 9 by shapeshifter

[Xeliou66]

Good episode - a few flaws as usual, but overall this was a solid L&O case.

The investigation was good as usual - I’m really enjoying the Riley/Shaw pairing, they have a nice, laid back rapport and are enjoyable to watch as detectives. I liked how they went through their suspects until getting to the truth. I would’ve liked a bit more explanation of how Yee found the video of the victim having sex with the actor quickly after the security guy told them she was having sex with clients, maybe she knew to look for that then, that seemed to happen quickly, other than that the investigation was very good. Oh and I would’ve liked a scene of Shaw/Riley confronting the restaurant hostess about her phony alibi, instead of just a reference after the fact, and I thought the fact that the killer fabricated an alibi after the murder was evidence of his guilt that Price might’ve wanted to mention in his closing. 
I didn’t guess the killer, I wasn’t sure who did it but I liked how they had a lot of suspects they sorted through.

The legal stuff was better than normal, the trial scenes were actually pretty well done, I would’ve liked to have heard the defense’s closing argument, other than that it was a good trial. I liked that Jack took on more of a role, I will sorely miss him when he’s gone.

I also wondered about whether creepy George would get hit with federal charges, because the DA’s office couldn’t make a deal with him on those, it would’ve been nice if at the the end they found some federal charges to stick him with. But I bought that the jury would buy his testimony, he got the details on the murder right and told what happened before he was even charged with child porn trafficking, and I thought Price made a convincing closing argument for the jury not to take their disgust for George out on the victim. I thought Jack was right saying they had to make unpopular decisions sometimes, and the killer needed to be convicted. Maroun saying that George was a bigger danger I didn’t agree with, George was a creepy perv but he wasn’t violent, Luke on the other hand murdered his boss because she confronted him over stealing. 

So overall a pretty good episode, compelling case from start to finish.

I’m very nervous about the next episode - I sure hope they give Jack the happy sendoff he deserves. He’s a legend and the face of the show, I hope to god they don’t send him out under a cloud. Jack McCoy is an awesome character and will be sorely missed. 

[wknt3]

1 hour ago, Broderbits said:

Not sure I can accept that a jury would believe a witness who was so tainted. Even though the state dropped child porn charges, couldn't he be held on federal charges?

 

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Yeah, he's going to get a visit by the US Marshalls very soon.  I was waiting for them to show up at the courthouse.

That would have been how the episode ended during the original run. Maybe even after having McCoy negotiate some sort of deal with the US Attorney's Office and then revealing that they deliberately left a loophole in the deal and the testimony they elicited at trial opened him up to charges with longer time attached. I did like the legal side of the show better than most of the reboot, but it still was checkers vs. the chess of the OG run.

[ML89]

The cop side was actual investigating, not relying on CCTV cameras - that was a surprise. The guys are getting a real groove together, even this early. Riley keeping up with pop culture was a nice touch .

Then came the legal side and it was like Price and Maroun were handed the wrong script. They weren’t expecting self-defense? They didn’t prep the actor and ask if he’d done drugs with the victim? Maroun can go around on her high hobby horse but if they’d done some ground work, they wouldn’t have been caught flat footed the way they were. 
 

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’m very nervous about the next episode - I sure hope they give Jack the happy sendoff he deserves. He’s a legend and the face of the show, I hope to god they don’t send him out under a cloud. Jack McCoy is an awesome character and will be sorely missed. 

Yes to this!

Edited February 9 by ML89
Repeating “nice” needed to be fixed.

[Raja]

In the first season Mr Stone pulled out that the deal was only with New York County card as the crime also crossed over into Brooklyn which took over. I really can't see a competent defense attorney would fall for the other jurisdiction trick. The judges in Law & Order world really don't allow defendants to revoke their right to an attorney which is a plot staple for Chief Johnson to use on The Closer/Major Crimes when she gets her confessions

[baldryanr]

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’m very nervous about the next episode - I sure hope they give Jack the happy sendoff he deserves. He’s a legend and the face of the show, I hope to god they don’t send him out under a cloud. Jack McCoy is an awesome character and will be sorely missed. 

Well, we've had plenty of exits to compare to.  Van Buren may have had the happiest exit since she was engaged, cancer free, and (because Merkerson was leaving regardless) possibly retiring to go enjoy life.  Others have died, been fired, or took new jobs.  Maybe McCoy pulls an Adam Schiff and goes globetrotting for some big project, but regardless I think he'll leave with a smile.

[shapeshifter]

I guess it was a dramatic choice to not include a couple of lines about how even though the video opportunist was an odious human, he  wasn’t directly involved in staging kiddie porn or trafficking?

His immunity wouldn’t extend in perpetuity, would it? So maybe the deal more effectively shut him down than sending him to prison where he might have had incentive to continue his crime.

[TakomaSnark]

I think when Sam is done on the 22nd, I'm out too. I've tried with this reboot but my god, this episode encapsulated everything wrong with 2.0. The investigation glosses over the most interesting parts of an investigation; the prosecution always seems unprepared, as if they are on their first day in the job. 

I personally think the credibility of the eyewitness would have been so impeached by the child porn accusations and deal with the prosecutor, that a jury made of up everyday people would have acquitted the accused.

[Theli11]

This episode is good. Just feels like it needs a bit more meat on the bones, and a better finish? I did find it weird that they didn't find Shaver to be a perv/pedo sooner. I really hope they give Connie Shi an also starring credit because the girl's been in like every episode since the second episode of Season 22. I don't even think Profaci was given this much screen time. I like the conflict in the episode, I just don't feel the emotions. They should've driven home how terrible Shaver's actions were, and the defense attorney should've been all over that, and made him plead the fifth or have him confess on the stand to a different crime. Felt too safe for me. 

[Snazzy Daisy]

If they cannot rely on the testimony of a tainted witness, then let’s the forensics do the talking.

Re the perp, no traces of drug at his home/office/car or in his blood? His fingerprints/DNA on victim’s handbag? His shoe prints at crime scene?

[Xeliou66]

3 minutes ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

If they cannot rely on the testimony of a tainted witness, then let’s the forensics do the talking.

Re the perp, no traces of drug at his home/office/car or in his blood? His fingerprints/DNA on victim’s handbag? His shoe prints at crime scene?

They knew he was at the crime scene, it was just a matter of whether it was self defense or not. Shaw and Riley did find the bloodstained clothes at the killer’s house. 
Unlike some others, I bought that the jury would believe the creepy voyeur’s testimony, because he told the story to the detectives before they even knew who the killer was and what happened and before he was facing the child porn charges. He had no reason to lie then. And while I’ve had issues with Price lately, I thought he did a good job in this episode with his closing argument, I just wish we could’ve heard the defense’s closing as well. 

[Theli11]

I totally forgot to mention this, but Price should’ve taken the deal 1000% when it was offered. I agree that 10 years is lenient for a killer but the defense couldve made the defendant look so badly infront of the jury he shouldn’t have taken the chance there.
 

Price being surprised that there was going to be a self defense plea is the dumbest thing; why would he not think that would be the defense? Do they not have motions anymore? It’s actually funny how his reaction is “the defense can’t claim self defense without evidence”, like they somehow teleported to the trial or something is so unreasonable as self defense. Was he expecting an insanity defense or something dumb? 

[zapper]

I would like to see a future episode with creepy George returning and getting comeuppance. Hard with the focus being homicide, but maybe George ... you know.

lots of angst about him avoiding jail in this past episode enabling him to commit murder, lots more of what was worse - a continued pedophile or a one off murder. Lots of stuff to sink into.

[Xeliou66]

24 minutes ago, zapper said:

I would like to see a future episode with creepy George returning and getting comeuppance. Hard with the focus being homicide, but maybe George ... you know.

lots of angst about him avoiding jail in this past episode enabling him to commit murder, lots more of what was worse - a continued pedophile or a one off murder. Lots of stuff to sink into.

It would be interesting continuity if creepy George popped up in an SVU episode, given that his crimes are similar to SVU crimes, with him spying on people and selling it to porn sites. That would be a great opportunity for continuity and a crossover appearance from one of the Mothership characters on SVU, but I doubt the writers would even think to do it.

[Sake614]

7 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

crossover appearance from one of the Mothership characters on SVU,

They only cross over to OC so Stabler can ogle Liv 🙄

[Xeliou66]

14 minutes ago, Sake614 said:

They only cross over to OC so Stabler can ogle Liv 🙄

Everyone falls in love with St Olivia it seems! 
But Lt Dixon did make an appearance last season on SVU, using her sign language knowledge to help them catch a perp. 

[dubbel zout]

On 2/9/2024 at 7:23 AM, shapeshifter said:

I guess it was a dramatic choice to not include a couple of lines about how even though the video opportunist was an odious human, he  wasn’t directly involved in staging kiddie porn or trafficking?

Didn't George post the naked teen stuff on the web? Even if he didn't, simply having that stuff on his computer is a federal crime, I think. I agree it's dumb we didn't see the feds come in at the end, but then Maroun couldn't have sniffed at Price.

The writing for the trial side is still very weak, and they always rely on some unexpected information to come out on the stand. It's really aggravating to see Price and Maroun gape in disbelief at something that they should have discovered earlier. 

[shapeshifter]

1 minute ago, dubbel zout said:

It's really aggravating to see Price and Maroun gape in disbelief at something that they should have discovered earlier. 

especially because it seems to happen every fricken week. 
It's like some Old Perry Mason fan high up in the network who has the power to Make It So! thought it would be good for ratings to have the real criminal confess on the stand every week (because that was OG Perry Mason's schtick) and these weekly Surprise Courtroom Gotchas are what they came up with to appease the demand for a gimmick.

[Joimiaroxeu]

That was a stunning apartment or townhouse or whatever. At first I thought it was an office building with the upward view of the huge winding staircase.

The victim's bodyguard/assistant seemed shady from the jump. He was having a hard time maintaining eye contact and Shaw noticed.

Sabrina Beaumont the Selling Park Ave. lady definitely had set herself up to look like a perp. But of course as the first person Riley and Shaw arrested, she wasn't.

Luke the defendant was a very bad liar, on top of being a dopehead.

If the victim was using a drugs again wouldn't that have shown up in the autopsy? I didn't understand how the defense just pulled just pulled that out of the air with no proof.

That judge seemed to have had something against Price. Pretty much every prosecution objection was overruled, and every defense objection sustained. Sounds like a payoff may have been involved since the defendants parents were wealthy, well-connected, and apparently inclined to smooth things out for their son at whatever cost.

Child porn, OMG. Did the DA's office not vet their star witness at all? But at least now the authorities will be watching him because odds are he won't stop the vile stuff he's been doing. Or he'll feel emboldened to do worse.

[txhorns79]

Quote

If the victim was using a drugs again wouldn't that have shown up in the autopsy? I didn't understand how the defense just pulled just pulled that out of the air with no proof.

I think they said she was about to relapse when she was shot, so nothing would be in the autopsy.  What I didn't get was that everyone just seemed to accept the victim was also a drug addict at some point in time.  Did anyone actually try to verify that story? 

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think they said she was about to relapse when she was shot, so nothing would be in the autopsy.  What I didn't get was that everyone just seemed to accept the victim was also a drug addict at some point in time.  Did anyone actually try to verify that story? 

The famous actor who had consensual sex (an affair?) with the victim admitted on the stand that they had consumed marijuana together. 

[txhorns79]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

The famous actor who had consensual sex (an affair?) with the victim admitted on the stand that they had consumed marijuana together. 

Yeah, but the assistant was alleging she was the one stealing pills from all those other homes, including this one.  Smoking marijuana is legal in New York, and if that was her drug of choice, she'd have no reason to be stealing pills from various homes.

[Chyromaniac]

Well, we've certainly come a long way from Mike Bodak...

Overall, I also enjoyed this episode.  Checking the credits, the writers were Pamela Wechsler and Gia Gordon - I know that Wechsler was responsible for (IMO) the better episodes last season, and I think Gordon worked on some of them as well.  At this point, I'm willing to say that they (Wechsler especially) are the only writers on staff that seem to know how to write courtroom drama for this show.  Yes, we still got some of the same problems that we always seem to get with the relaunch - the obligatory chase scene, the DA's being caught off guard by stuff they should know, the self defense arguments...  But, even there, I think some of it could be justified.  Like - given what we find out later, George taking off from the cops actually does make sense.  I can even forgive them not literally showing the other evidence against Luke at trial, because it's stuff we already know.  I'm sure that the fake alibi probably did influence the jury as far as who to believe.  I'm also going to put Price's redirect of Shaver in the "good stuff" column - it's his best lawyerly moment all season so far.  TBH, I think he could have redirected Robbie as well to clarify that, whatever else, he and Andrea never used pills together.

Still, a few issues remain.  If two people are present at five locations where pills go missing, maybe the cops should find out if both of them have a history with drug use.  Price also still comes across as very ineffectual.  Look man - you have George dead to rights.  He can either do nothing and go away for a long time, or cooperate and take a slightly shorter sentence - that's the choice.   Oh, and also besides the numerous Federal charges that Shaver is probably facing, lets not forget that he nearly ran Riley down with his car - I don't know that anyone ever gave him an honest to gosh, pinky swear immunity deal for that.  Beyond that, I think it's dumb that they get stopped in the hallway every week by some ancillary character who's angry about the case (this week we get two).  It's like they don't trust the audience to care about the outcome unless they see someone yell at Price to "do better."

Yet, overall this at least felt like an episode of Law & Order.  And hallelujah - a closing argument!  Clearly this episode was set up as a moral question of what's worse - failing to convict a killer, or letting the worst creep imaginable go free.  Which, at it's heart, L&O has always been a show about these kinds of dilemmas.  That's the reason that a closing argument scene is so important - it puts that question to the jury and the audience.  Then we get the verdict, and decide if we're okay with the outcome.

Edited February 11 by Chyromaniac

[Sake614]

Price’s closing was okay but I miss Jack’s closing arguments. They were always a thing of beauty!

[Xeliou66]

7 minutes ago, Sake614 said:

Price’s closing was okay but I miss Jack’s closing arguments. They were always a thing of beauty!

Amen!! No one could deliver a better closing argument than Jack McCoy!! Those are some of the best moments in L&O history. 
Ben Stone had some good closings and was a strong lead prosecutor as well, but Jack will always be my favorite. Ben was a great character but they managed to replace him with someone even better in Jack. 
The truth is, Jack just can’t be replaced, he was so awesome in the courtroom that both of the lead prosecutors to come after him, Cutter and Price, just can’t measure up, I have big issues with both - Cutter was cocky and used trickery too much and seemed to only care about winning for his ego at times (he improved in season 20 though), while Price can come off as just too soft and not having enough personality. I did like Price in this episode, much better than I’ve liked him in a while, but there’s no one who can replace Jack McCoy. That’s why I’m nervous about this new DA coming on - he’s stepping into impossible shoes to fill. 

[ML89]

Silly, but it took me until this episode to realize that when Shaw & Riley are getting out of an SUV, it's their squad car. I kept looking for a sedan and wondering whose SUV they had borrowed. 

[Raja]

2 hours ago, ML89 said:

Silly, but it took me until this episode to realize that when Shaw & Riley are getting out of an SUV, it's their squad car. I kept looking for a sedan and wondering whose SUV they had borrowed. 

It took me years to recognize those cars in my mirror after watching for police Crown Victoria's for so long

[blackwing]

On 2/8/2024 at 8:44 PM, shapeshifter said:

Also, in the old days of L&O, the NYPD would've realized that after the witness was busted for porn, there was a chance he really did record the murder and just didn't want to admit it earlier because it would lead to his having recorded the 14-year-old in The. Same. House!
So they'd go through his videos. There'd be complaining about the depravity of some, of course. Maybe they'd find something that had been deleted. Maybe they'd find nothing. But there wasn't even a throwaway line about how it turned out everything had been permanently overwritten or deleted.

I was surprised that they just took him at his word that he didn't record the video.  Surely the cops would have subpoenaed his computer and the tech experts would have gone through everything.  If he's been guilty of child porn in the past, it stands to reason that he would have recorded everything on his computer automatically. 

It just defies belief that his addiction is child porn and he didn't record it.  "Oh here's a hot lady and a famous actor in flagrante, let me hit the record button so I can sell the video."  "Oh here's what I really wanted to see, the naked 14 year old teen, I've been waiting days for this, but I'm not going to record it because there's zero chance I'm going to want to watch it again later in the privacy of my own toilet."

On 2/8/2024 at 8:21 PM, Madding crowd said:

I don’t like Maroun. She always acts like she is better than Price and he never lives up to her expectations. I think they could find another way to go after the video guy but it wouldn’t be right to set a murderer free and let people think the victim was a drug addict stealing from her clients.

St. Maroun, she's always sanctimonious and critical of Price's choices and often automatically disagrees with him.  I don't like the character or the actress, but given that she is a woman of Middle Eastern descent, I don't think either are going to go away any time soon.

On 2/11/2024 at 11:39 AM, Sake614 said:

Price’s closing was okay but I miss Jack’s closing arguments. They were always a thing of beauty!

I really hope that Tony Goldwyn gets involved more.  Legal side definitely needs to be beefed up.

Maybe that's one of the reasons for Sam's departure.  The writers realised that the legal side of the show is weak (they can thank Samantha) and needs more meat.  But Sam is too old to do it so they need some new blood.

[Tachi Rocinante]

On 2/10/2024 at 9:59 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

That judge seemed to have had something against Price. Pretty much every prosecution objection was overruled, and every defense objection sustained. Sounds like a payoff may have been involved since the defendants parents were wealthy, well-connected, and apparently inclined to smooth things out for their son at whatever cost.

Price should have pushed Jack to look into this - it may not have resulted in anything, but the dude was clearly leaning towards the defense.

I've always liked Cory Michael Smith, whether in bit parts like this, or in meatier roles like Gotham.