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S00.E162: Wild Blue Yonder


DanaK
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60th Anniversary special #2, starring David Tennant and Catherine Tate  

Saturday, December 2 at 6:30pm GMT on BBC One and iPlayer in the UK and Disney+ elsewhere

Synopsis:

The Tardis takes the Doctor and Donna to the furthest edge of adventure. To escape, they must face the most desperate fight of their lives, with the fate of the universe at stake.

Written by Russell T. Davies 

Directed by Tom Kingsley

Episode page https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001t42d


Preview

 

Edited by DanaK
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Oooo, a "bottle" episode with some creepy horror vibes. I can see how some are comparing this to "Midnight", with the strange noises, the copying, the mysterious creatures. Some notes:

1. How wonderful to see Bernard Cribbins!

2. Though it seems like a lot more money has been spent on production, it still has the overall Doctor Who aesthetic. It doesn't need to look like the MCU, it can look like a cleaned-up version of Ten's series!

3. My family has commented on how these specials have not depended solely on "space plot". Yes, there are aliens, mysteries, spooky abandoned ships, but there is so much depth to the character relationships. Good job, RTD!

4. With Donna's fate unknown, the moments where she is put in danger feel like they have higher stakes... I was quite tense at the end when the Doctor had the no-thing Donna in the TARDIS instead of real Donna!

5. It must have been a successful episode -- my heart rate still feels a bit elevated twenty minutes later!

Finally -- "who turned out the lights" and "are you my mummy" have some competition now, with "my arms are too long!"

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1 hour ago, tkc said:

3. My family has commented on how these specials have not depended solely on "space plot". Yes, there are aliens, mysteries, spooky abandoned ships, but there is so much depth to the character relationships. Good job, RTD!

4. With Donna's fate unknown, the moments where she is put in danger feel like they have higher stakes... I was quite tense at the end when the Doctor had the no-thing Donna in the TARDIS instead of real Donna!

I was on the edge of my seat! I thought we were going to have another Sliders on our hands.

The character stuff was so good. I'm so sad that Donna can't understand the Doctor the way he needs her to. Although I do find myself hoping she does remember and wasn't quite ready to talk about it with him yet. Probably not, but I really want the Doctor to have that one person he can come back to. I really do believe Catherine Tate could have chemistry with any incarnation. Ooh I do wish we could have seen Donna and Twelve on an adventure or two.

I don't think there was much to complain about in this one. As close to perfect as any episode has ever come.

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Wilf! ❤️ that man. 

One thing I noticed is that 14's doctor brought in some of 13's phrasing and specifically saying "me" instead of "my." As in "I've got it in me brain." And then when he saw Wilf--"hello me old soldier." I recently rewatched 9-11 and I don't recall 10 ever saying "me" instead of my. I thought it was a one-off and I was reading into it but it happened twice in this episode and, to me at least, it seems like he subtly emphasized it. 

Edited by Sailorgirl26
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Having Tenant and Tate play both the heroes and the villains is certainly one way to maximize their screentime and cut down on the guest star budget.  All of that money was spent on the CGI instead.

I find it very hard to believe that they'd go to the trouble of bringing back Donna just to kill her off as part of some heroic sacrifice.  It might (emphasis on might) make some sense if Tenant was continuing on, just to see how it affects him, but with a new Doctor on deck it would be a disservice for him to have that type of baggage to carry around.  Do we really want to see 15 moping around?

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It started pretty weird and I wasn’t so sure about it, but it picked up once the bad guys showed up and an immediate rewatch made the first part better. David and Catherine’s acting and chemistry carried this well. The Newton opening was just too silly. It was really nice to see Wilf and the ending was a good cliffhanger for the next special

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That was creepy good. I do hate that the doctor got all emotional with his shit and it wasn't the right Donna. I don't really know what he was on about because I quit watching 13's run but I wish the real Donna could have heard it. I'm not sure she was telling the truth at the end about not remembering. 

It was so happy/sad seeing Wilf again. Donna's family is the best one of the new Who. 

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Well that was a creepy one. It picked up once we got out Doctor Donna vs long arms Doctor Donna.

We better not get another Donna dies fake out in the next episode. Once was enough. I also think Donna knows what happened with 13 and just wanted the Doctor to say it. I guess they have to keep that canon. I didn't mind it since the Doctor doesn't know who they are. 

14 seems to have kept 13's speech patterns and being more open with their feelings. I wonder if we'll get a reason why 13 changed back into 10's face. 

It was great seeing Wilf again. He would wait for the Doctor and Donna to return. And of course the world is in complete chaos. 

 

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Suddenly it’s “mavity” and all I can think is the ( speculation for Who, spoiler for…))

Spoiler

the Bradbury story with the butterfly

 

5 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

One thing I noticed is that 14's doctor brought in some of 13's phrasing and specifically saying "me" instead of "my." As in "I've got it in me brain." And then when he saw Wilf--"hello me old soldier." I recently rewatched 9-11 and I don't recall 10 ever saying "me" instead of my. I thought it was a one-off and I was reading into it but it happened twice in this episode and, to me at least, it seems like he subtly emphasized it. 

 

Hmmmm…..

 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

We better not get another Donna dies fake out in the next episode.

I would rather have another fake out than Donna dying for real. That better not happen.

I forgot to mention earlier that, for a character who was already dead when we encountered her, and who was only discussed for a minute or so, I found myself quite moved by the ship captain who sacrificed herself to destroy these very dangerous creatures.

It would have happened even if our heroes never arrived, and that kind of selfless, anonymous sacrifice, is something I've always found incredibly emotional. I often wonder how many people throughout history have sacrificed themselves to save someone, or possibly everyone, and nobody even knows it happened, let alone their names.

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6 hours ago, Starchild said:

Although I do find myself hoping she does remember and wasn't quite ready to talk about it with him yet.

I think she does, and she was trying to get him to open up. 

You need some actors who really know their characters to play the entire episode. And playing off themselves. 

It would maybe have been a little more interesting if they came upon the captain's notes or log or something, even if incomplete just to get a little more there. 

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RTD does it again, that was great. Clipped along at a great pace, centred the characters (thankyou!), nicely weird as befits the show, and very different from last week, which also befits the show. And if you're going to bring Tennant back, torturing him to bring out his emotional arc in the short time he's here is definitely the way to go. It was really a good move to focus the middle episode primarily on the Doctor and Donna's relationship. Next week is going to be hectic again. 

Visuals were off-the-charts fabulous (at least to my unsophisticated eyes), and there was a lovely Classic feel to much of the episode, probably the bottle aspect and all the space corridors.

There is definitely destiny in these three episodes, and probably beyond. I wonder if the "half the universe destroyed" will be acknowledged again, surely it will? It was SO ANNOYING how that was barely? not at all? mentioned after Flux, like, fans were wondering if it was actually still destroyed, and that's just not a good place to leave a little plot detail like that lol. So thankyou for finally getting an acknowledgement and some emotional payoff... in the next era. Bonus if there's more Gallifrey/identity angst somewhere down the line, although I'm probably in the minority. Just as long as it's a fresh way to do it haha. Bring back exiled Rassilon and make him the Doctor's problem. 

The Fourteenth Doctor really showed how he is not the Tenth Doctor, which is quite surreal, and kind of beautiful with his reactions. I wouldn't want this incarnation to go on and on, this is a coda. 

EDIT: Also, just watched the preview for next week, and was reminded there was a reference to the main villain in the previous era (Can You Hear Me?), which seemed to confirm his particular place in the cosmos. 

Edited by Kite
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Just what we needed for an anniversary special . . . body horror! It was well done, but it was still disturbing as hell.

46 minutes ago, Kite said:

The Fourteenth Doctor really showed how he is not the Tenth Doctor, which is quite surreal, and kind of beautiful with his reactions. I wouldn't want this incarnation to go on and on, this is a coda.

How so? All I was able to see were the apologies and the moments of rage, two things David Tennant does very well. If RTD was to say that that wasn't actually the Fourteenth Doctor (maybe call it a "Regression" to an older face?), I'd probably be okay with that.

2 hours ago, DanaK said:

FYI, the ending was Bernard Cribbins’ only scene that he was able to film

I was spoiled on that. I'm glad Wilf got to see the Doctor. It's a shame that showrunners don't usually use each other's characters. Imagine, if you will: instead of "The Return Of Dr. Mysterio," we had gotten a team-up with Twelve and Wilf. I think they would have gotten along great, and Peter would probably have geeked out playing next to someone that was in one of the movies with Peter Cushing.

Quick question while I'm here . . . how do you pronounce "Ncuti Gatwa"? I just want to be ready when the transition happens.

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2 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Quick question while I'm here . . . how do you pronounce "Ncuti Gatwa"? I just want to be ready when the transition happens.

Ncuti is pronounced 'shooty', Gatwa is gat-wa.

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1 hour ago, Lantern7 said:

How so? All I was able to see were the apologies and the moments of rage, two things David Tennant does very well. 

Ten was way more Casanova (as played by Tennant for RTD), self-involved, cocky, prideful, almost aggressively distancing when it matters. He's not entirely not that here, I mean, last ep with the "it killed me" instead of an actual apology to Donna. But he's more emotionally available/open this time, more aware/empathetic, his ego gets less in the way, he seems to be a more mature reflective and subdued version of Ten. A Doctor for a good time but not a long time for a story arc, imo. 

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There are definitely some aspects of 10th Doctor in there*, but there are also some differences, like Kite said he's more emotional and more open, at least with Donna. I bet that if we got more than 3 episodes, it would be more visible. I think Tennant did well with the idea of 10 with the added memories and experiences of the other 3 incarnations.

*And why wouldn't there be, when he's around people from his past? I have seen this with some people, becoming more of their past selves when around some old friends/family. People can show different sides of their personalities based on who they interact with.

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Mavity! I wonder how long they'll keep that one up.

The doctor realising he's queer (now) and Donna being like "well I always knew", kinda made my day. It was funny and yet fitting.

In the control rooms: RTD is really good at these small moments and the reveal that this wasn't two scenes that happened one after the other intercut, but happening simultaniously was pretty damn great. It reminded me of midnight.

Then it went a bit attack on titan, which gave me good chuckle. Can't tell me that RTD hasn't seen that show.

I had really hoped that the timeless child nonsense would be retconned. But I kinda doubt it now. I guess there is still a small chance. Gotta set a good retcon up, afterall. But I think all these showrunners just know each other too much and are too friendly with each other. We'll probably need to wait another 20 years till somebody corrects that massive mistake.

Also the Flux now only wiped out half the universe? Well that's a massive change, without much of a setup, to the point that I have a hard time even calling it a retcon. After the season basically nothing but earth was left. I guess better this way than having to try and spend time to get the universe back, but still...

The explaination for the hostile action ending and the Tardis coming back seemed a little thin. Afterall, the hostiles could still try to take over the Tardis. Or was the self destruct the hostile action? In that case it shouldn't be over untill the self destruct is finished, right? That part of the script might have needed another pass...

But a good horror episode. I disagree with RTD when he said it was like nothing we'd ever seen on doctor who. After all it's a lot like something he had already written on doctor who. But still, very good.

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14 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Having Tenant and Tate play both the heroes and the villains is certainly one way to maximize their screentime and cut down on the guest star budget.  All of that money was spent on the CGI instead.

It probably had more to do with covid restrictions. The specials were filmed from early May to late July 2022. Obviously you could film with more people at the time, as seen last special, but it would have been very expensive. I guess having more money for special effects is a nice side-effect.

13 hours ago, Valerie said:

Great episode but again, these specials don't feel very... "special." They just feel like they could have gone anywhere in Series 4 with Doctor and Donna as standalone episodes.

I suspect that will change next week. We just had to reaquainted to the two first.

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17 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I loved this and the last episode. Love Tenant and Tate, but Bernard Cribbens! I cried when I saw Wilf.

So did I. As much as I've been loving seeing Tennant and Tate these past two weeks, seeing Wilf is what really got to me.

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3 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

But I think all these showrunners just know each other too much and are too friendly with each other. 

Are you trying to imply there’s some kind of conspiracy theory where RTD is unable to honestly admit he doesn’t like the part of the backstory you don’t like and is forced to pander to it lol? I mean, the alternative interpretation is that RTD likes the part of the backstory you don’t like and is expressing his creative freedom, which he’s never been shy about expressing before ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

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16 minutes ago, Kite said:

Are you trying to imply there’s some kind of conspiracy theory where RTD is unable to honestly admit he doesn’t like the part of the backstory you don’t like and is forced to pander to it lol? I mean, the alternative interpretation is that RTD likes the part of the backstory you don’t like and is expressing his creative freedom, which he’s never been shy about expressing before ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

I'm implying that people don't like to shit on stuff their friends made. That's not a conspiracy theory and should be pretty obvious.

I'm pretty sure that he doesn't like that the doctor is now super extra special and the source of regeneration. That the doctor was just a very lowly timelord, who one day decided to steal a tardis, was always a big part of their personality and something Russel liked about them, as far as I understood it in past interviews. While Russel certainly lies in interviews, that has been a consistent throughline when he was showrunner the first time, with no need to lie about.

 

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Okay, 'why that face?' makes perfect sense now. All of New Who has been about The Doctor looking for family and connection. Rose and her family (a part of him marries into it); Donna and her family; Eleven staling the Amy/Rory family group and marrying into it (and Twelve finishing it off and guarding Missy); thirteen and her desperation to keep her companions together as a 'fam'. If the state of mind of the Time Lords can alter the course of the regenerations it makes sense that she would regenerate into Tennant, because Donna and her family, while unavailable for reasons, are actually still around.  So, that is why that face. He's lonely and he wants his family.

I hope he does get to talk to Donna a little. Whether anyone likes it or not, the timeless child thing is now part of canon and needs to be addressed in some way. Like the Flux. these inbetween episodes are as good a place to do it as any. I personally can't think of how to get rid of it, although it doesn't change who the Doctor is and what the doctor has done, including being a fairly low level time lord who steals a weird jalopy of a Tardis. It really doesn't change anything. It doesn't, in my opinion, make him a chosen one, for example, or at least not in general.

I think I read somewhere that someone was hired to play "rose' with the 15th doctor, maybe that is the same 'Rose' and he will be able to carry a little bit of family forward.

How did 'mavity' get back to 'gravity'? It did, didn't it?

21 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Having Tenant and Tate play both the heroes and the villains is certainly one way to maximize their screentime and cut down on the guest star budget.  All of that money was spent on the CGI instead.

 

For whatever reason, we got to have them mostly play off each other, which was fun to watch, and what the middle of three episodes needed. I think.

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I was worried about this episode at first. The Newton bit seemed twee, but then they dumped it. Then having the Doctor and Donna alone seemed like it was headed toward a hopelessly introspective time, but then that turned out to be wrong.

The pieces clicked together and it was a lot of fun even though there was horror too. And there were interactions between the characters on a personal level too. 

The past two episodes have involved people behind the scenes who like the show and the characters and want everything to succeed. What a crazy concept! 

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1 hour ago, Affogato said:

these inbetween episodes are as good a place to do it as any. I personally can't think of how to get rid of it, although it doesn't change who the Doctor is and what the doctor has done, including being a fairly low level time lord who steals a weird jalopy of a Tardis. It really doesn't change anything. It doesn't, in my opinion, make him a chosen one, for example, or at least not in general.

Tecteun (who was actually one of the founders of Gallifrey, whatever, who cares) lied about the doctor's origin for [insert reason here] and manipulated the master into believing it. The master being manipulated by Gallifrey's founders is kinda just par for the course at this point.

All the other doctors we've seen actually worked for the CIA between the second and third doctor.

Done.

I personally think the timeless child origin changes a whole bunch about the doctor. In addition to the whole commentary on class and how you can be special no matter where you come from, you don't have to be born that way, which is the big one here, it means he would have never needed additional regneration energy from the timelords, since he has unlimited regenerations and so it doesn't make sense that Matt Smith looked like a mummy at the end there. It also doesn't make sense that Jo Martin had a police box Tardis, 100s of years before the chameleon circuit got stuck in England in the 1960s.

I guess ymmv, but I think thematically and canonically, we'd be much better off if we could retcon this nonsense away as quickly as possible.

1 minute ago, JustHereForFood said:

The Doctor mentioned it once, but then corrected himself that he meant mavity. Maybe it's a slang from one of those 57 billion languages he knows.

It's probably gallifreyan and only resembles our word by coincidence. The Tardis wasn't there to translate so it was probably inevitable that he'd slip into his native tounge at some point, when explaining something technical. Gravity... sounds weird. But it's fun to learn a gallifreyan word, finally.

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7 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

It also doesn't make sense that Jo Martin had a police box Tardis, 100s of years before the chameleon circuit got stuck in England in the 1960s.

I didn't mind the Timeless Child story much, but this one thing still seems strange. It would be such an obvious mistake that I can't believe nobody would spot it, but if it was intentional why was it never explained?

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31 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

I didn't mind the Timeless Child story much, but this one thing still seems strange. It would be such an obvious mistake that I can't believe nobody would spot it, but if it was intentional why was it never explained?

Oh there are a bunch more:

Like how did River Song get her regenerations? If it's genetic, like we were told in the timeless child arc, there is really only one way. She must be the doctor's and Amy's daughter, not Rory's. As if that wasn't bad enough that would mean that the doctor married his own daughter, kissed her a bunch and presumably did even more with her.

If regnerations are genetic and regenerations are spliced into timelords genes why are they limited to 12? Is that an artificial limit that Tecteun put in. Why? And more importantly how is more "regeneration energy" transfared to a timelord, when it's a genetic trait and not some technology related to the time vortex, like it was explained before? Also why do only timelords have regenerations? Shouldn't normal Gallifreyans have it, since timelords with the gene would have children and those would be normal Gallifreyans, till they graduate from the acedemy? Is the regeneration edited out at birth and only given back when they graduate? That seems very cruel. "Sorry kid, you could have survived this head first fall from the swing onto a sharp rock, but you know, gotta take away your natural abilities, so we can give them back to you at some artificial point in your life or maybe never." Or are the looms a thing again? But even there, same question applies.

And there are quite a few more. You really can't think about the timeless child too hard or it all falls apart. So even if a retcon would have some rough edges (though I think you can explain it away 99% seamlessly) it would still be a lot better than what we have now.

Originally I didn't want to get too much into it, but I felt the need to explain why I think that yes, it is that bad, since a lot of you don't seem to have a problem with it. Probably won't change anybody's mind, but needed to be said.

Of course the Jo Martin Tardis is extra weird, since that was made with the timeless child as the solution in mind and so you'd think they'd get it right. This would also be fixed if Jo Martin was actually a doctor between the second and third. Just sayin'.

Edited by PurpleTentacle
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2 hours ago, Affogato said:

How did 'mavity' get back to 'gravity'? It did, didn't it?

I don't think so, not yet.

 

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

It's probably gallifreyan and only resembles our word by coincidence. The Tardis wasn't there to translate so it was probably inevitable that he'd slip into his native tounge at some point, when explaining something technical. Gravity... sounds weird. But it's fun to learn a gallifreyan word, finally.

It looked to me like the Doctor was "protected" from the time change. He knows the word is (was?) gravity, but he realizes they changed something while they were with Newton, so he's accepted that for everyone who speaks English it's now "mavity" and he's rolling with it.

Although obviously, Newton wouldn't have used "mavity", he would have still used the word that descends from the Latin language (gravis, gravitas), like most English-speaking scientists.

But that's no fun.

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3 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

It also doesn't make sense that Jo Martin had a police box Tardis, 100s of years before the chameleon circuit got stuck in England in the 1960s.

It was a sign to the audience that something was up

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3 hours ago, Starchild said:

Although obviously, Newton wouldn't have used "mavity", he would have still used the word that descends from the Latin language (gravis, gravitas), like most English-speaking scientists.

Which made me question if he was, in fact, Newton. Unless I missed it, the doctor made an assumption but the character's name was never actually mentioned at any point by anyone else, nor did he himself affirm in any way that he was indeed Newton when the doctor spoke the name to him. Which leads me to wonder if it was a case of mistaken identity, which somehow caused a butterfly effect, and consequently is related to the chaos shown in present day... imo there has to be a plot reason for changing the word (because from a writing viewpoint, why that specific word?), or why even bother to include that scene?

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I loved it! Others have already brought up the comparisons to "Midnight," and I was also reminded of "The Impossible Planet" / "The Satan Pit" (somewhere with a language not even the Doctor knows, out further than the Doctor has ever gone before and he feels the pull of the unknown.) The Not-Doctor and Not-Donna were both supremely creepy--I loved the moment when I realized the two conversations in the control rooms were happening at the same time, and the Not-Doctor's, "Oh, we get hungry, don't we?" gave me chills.

Both David Tennant and Catherine Tate were just incandescently good. They really felt soulless as the Not-Doctor and Not-Donna, and it was especially eerie as they copied more, how they could imitate the real thing almost perfectly, but then they'd get caught out and they'd just turn empty inside. And they were amazing as the actual Doctor and Donna too. This was an episode that got to the heart of who both characters are, what they mean to one another, and how well they know each other, and both rose to the occasion magnificently. Tennant played the Doctor's pain over the Timeless Child revelations and the Flux sooooo well, and Tate killed me stone dead when Donna got left behind. Their scene together in the TARDIS after escaping was beautiful.

Wow, putting the Doctor in a situation where he has to try *not* to think, lol. I loved the switch from him coaching Donna to let her mind slow, to Donna trying to warn him off when the copies started tempting him with questions.

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I was just as enthralled as most people by this week's episode. It had me on edge throughout, it was scary and trippy all at once. Especially seeing the Doctor work something out without his trusty screwdriver!

Just one little quibble re the cold open. I'm all for diversity and inclusion on this show (unlike some media commentators I've heard) and as far as I'm concerned, RTD or any other writer can give their own characters any race/creed/gender/orientation etc. they want to. I don't even mind when those characters are altered from the original work (ex: House of the Dragon.) 

But I must draw the line when it comes to historic figures like Isaac Newton. Giving the part to an apparently non-white actor is unnecessary and overly distracting from the story, and I'm afraid it might give kids (still a good chunk of this audience) the wrong idea. 

(/slightly OT: In case anyone is thinking of it, I don't have the same problem with a musical like Hamilton. That had its own style and its own points to make. /slightlyOT) 

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1 hour ago, arachne said:

I was just as enthralled as most people by this week's episode. It had me on edge throughout, it was scary and trippy all at once. Especially seeing the Doctor work something out without his trusty screwdriver!

Just one little quibble re the cold open. I'm all for diversity and inclusion on this show (unlike some media commentators I've heard) and as far as I'm concerned, RTD or any other writer can give their own characters any race/creed/gender/orientation etc. they want to. I don't even mind when those characters are altered from the original work (ex: House of the Dragon.) 

But I must draw the line when it comes to historic figures like Isaac Newton. Giving the part to an apparently non-white actor is unnecessary and overly distracting from the story, and I'm afraid it might give kids (still a good chunk of this audience) the wrong idea. 

(/slightly OT: In case anyone is thinking of it, I don't have the same problem with a musical like Hamilton. That had its own style and its own points to make. /slightlyOT) 

Just to point out, the Newton actor is biracial, White and Chinese

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The "gravity of the situation joke" was as hilarious as the Timorous Beastie trying to get a "We are not amused" out of Queen Victoria. (10 & Rose)

Then we get the horror of the halls, as horrible as House in the  TARDIS. (11 & Amy/Rory) The use of the hallways made this more like "The Doctor's Wife" than "Midnight".

I  still think the TARDIS landed in Me's Trap Street. (12 & Clara)

Then ...the Flux (13 & half the Universe)

All the 10 -13 Doctors covered!

I was expecting to see a fly with a "my wings are too big" problem.

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On 12/4/2023 at 5:04 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

I'm implying that people don't like to shit on stuff their friends made. That's not a conspiracy theory and should be pretty obvious.

I'm pretty sure that he doesn't like that the doctor is now super extra special and the source of regeneration. That the doctor was just a very lowly timelord, who one day decided to steal a tardis, was always a big part of their personality and something Russel liked about them, as far as I understood it in past interviews. While Russel certainly lies in interviews, that has been a consistent throughline when he was showrunner the first time, with no need to lie about.

 

The conspiracy theory is that RTD is obviously lying and going out of his way to lie. He didn’t have to put such a strong continuity and emotional acknowledgement in, and right away, you know. He could have just ignored it or given the briefest nod at some point. He didn’t have to be quite SO enthusiastic about the idea in interviews. 

Who knows for sure, but the point is, you don’t, and at this stage it’s violating Occam’s razor to insist your interpretation is the obvious one.  

When the show came back, I had a hard time getting used to the fact that the Doctor was so special, he killed off all the Time Lords and Daleks and is now living with the galactic guilt from that. Before that, he was just some guy (except when he was president but, you know). 

RTD was a huge cheerleader for 13 too, he was the first to drop a hint it was a woman through hiding it in a cartoon in a published book. Plenty of fans insisting the obvious interpretation was he was only being polite. 

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10 hours ago, arachne said:

I was just as enthralled as most people by this week's episode. It had me on edge throughout, it was scary and trippy all at once. Especiallyno seeing the Doctor work something out without his trusty screwdriver!

Just one little quibble re the cold open. I'm all for diversity and inclusion on this show (unlike some media commentators I've heard) and as far as I'm concerned, RTD or any other writer can give their own characters any race/creed/gender/orientation etc. they want to. I don't even mind when those characters are altered from the original work (ex: House of the Dragon.) 

But I must draw the line when it comes to historic figures like Isaac Newton. Giving the part to an apparently non-white actor is unnecessary and overly distracting from the story, and I'm afraid it might give kids (still a good chunk of this audience) the wrong idea. 

(/slightly OT: In case anyone is thinking of it, I don't have the same problem with a musical like Hamilton. That had its own style and its own points to make. /slightlyOT) 

It may turn out to be an alternate Isaac who put the idea of mavity on the intellectual map, in a splinter universe  

Edited by Affogato
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On 12/3/2023 at 6:00 PM, PurpleTentacle said:

Oh there are a bunch more:

Like how did River Song get her regenerations? If it's genetic, like we were told in the timeless child arc, there is really only one way. She must be the doctor's and Amy's daughter, not Rory's. As if that wasn't bad enough that would mean that the doctor married his own daughter, kissed her a bunch and presumably did even more with her.

If regnerations are genetic and regenerations are spliced into timelords genes why are they limited to 12? Is that an artificial limit that Tecteun put in. Why? And more importantly how is more "regeneration energy" transfared to a timelord, when it's a genetic trait and not some technology related to the time vortex, like it was explained before? Also why do only timelords have regenerations? Shouldn't normal Gallifreyans have it, since timelords with the gene would have children and those would be normal Gallifreyans, till they graduate from the acedemy? Is the regeneration edited out at birth and only given back when they graduate? That seems very cruel. "Sorry kid, you could have survived this head first fall from the swing onto a sharp rock, but you know, gotta take away your natural abilities, so we can give them back to you at some artificial point in your life or maybe never." Or are the looms a thing again? But even there, same question applies.

And there are quite a few more. You really can't think about the timeless child too hard or it all falls apart. So even if a retcon would have some rough edges (though I think you can explain it away 99% seamlessly) it would still be a lot better than what we have now.

Originally I didn't want to get too much into it, but I felt the need to explain why I think that yes, it is that bad, since a lot of you don't seem to have a problem with it. Probably won't change anybody's mind, but needed to be said.

Of course the Jo Martin Tardis is extra weird, since that was made with the timeless child as the solution in mind and so you'd think they'd get it right. This would also be fixed if Jo Martin was actually a doctor between the second and third. Just sayin'.

You need to sharpen your wanking abilities. In any case, river was explained.. her DNA was timey wimpy epigenetics. So may galifreyans be, too. Because you have the potential does not mean it is realized. May need time travel to start it up. And so on. 

Edited by Affogato
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On 12/4/2023 at 9:35 AM, JustHereForFood said:

I didn't mind the Timeless Child story much, but this one thing still seems strange. It would be such an obvious mistake that I can't believe nobody would spot it, but if it was intentional why was it never explained?

I never found it odd. For me I thought it’s a chameleon circuit that adapts to its surroundings and what people psychically expect to see. It doesn’t stay neutral. This is the Doctor’s TARDIS, and to the 13th Doctor, she saw what to her looks like the Doctor’s TARDIS. (And TARDISes have sensitivity to the future and destiny too, they’re a bit magical.) To the Fugitive Doctor, its shape is unremarkable, an earth shape, it constantly changes, assuming they’re seeing the same things which they may not be. It’s quite possible (and my head canon too) that this is actually the same TARDIS which was stolen later on, and One did not remember it. 

Anyway, Chibnall did say in some interview there was a perfectly logical explanation, and it did really sound like it was going to be revealed later. I was annoyed when it didn’t, but also a lot of content ended up on the cutting room floor when the pandemic happened apparently, he has said it was pretty horrible and was tempted to walk away for a while. 
 

EDIT: Pretty sure the between 2nd and 3rd Doctor theory was discredited by Flux, with where Fugitive Doctor was placed in Gallifrey’s ancient timeline?? Or?? I had kind of checked out of wild fandom speculation by that time, I overall enjoyed Flux and wanted to do so in peace! But I sure don’t remember the details now.

Edited by Kite
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12 hours ago, Affogato said:

Like how did River Song get her regenerations? If it's genetic, like we were told in the timeless child arc, there is really only one way. She must be the doctor's and Amy's daughter, not Rory's. As if that wasn't bad enough that would mean that the doctor married his own daughter, kissed her a bunch and presumably did even more with her.

IRL the Doctor did all of these things with "his" daughter. (~_~).

Was River the first "Non male presenting" person to "give up" her regeneration energy? Rose #1 "gave" a lot of Time Vortex energy to Capn Jack to make him immortal. There was a lot of wokery in Who before the Who-lligans got their knickers in a bunch.

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This week, Doctor Who does Among Us! 

That was such a great episode, I am such a sucker for stories where characters find themselves in big empty places and they have to figure out what happened there. The Not Donna and Not Doctor were so creepy, David and Catherine did an amazing job switching between being themselves and being these disturbing duplicates who can look like them but always look a bit off. The weird arms and the giant Attack on Titan style monster heads were certainly scary but I thought the scenes where they both looked normal but were just acting so off were even scarier. They had this strange emptiness to them, like they were just stalling there waiting to be filled up, it was very disconcerting. 

I am not a fan of the Timeless Child story but I am glad that they had some follow up with it and how the Doctor is still dealing with everything that happened, I always find it frustrating when a new show runner takes over and just decides to ignore everything the last show runner did so they can put their own stamp on the franchise. I was also really happy to see some consequences of The Flux, its always felt like such a wasted opportunity. Almost the entire universe was eaten, maybe we should deal with that? 

We also got a lot of really good character stuff between the Doctor and Donna, their chemistry is still fire after fifteen years. I like that this Doctor isn't just Ten all over again, despite being played by the same actor and having a lot of similarities. This Doctor is quite a bit more vulnerable and open than Ten was, and while he still has that manic energy there is something more contemplative about him. A lot has happened in the last fifteen years. 

You can really tell he feels the mavity of everything that has happened since he left Donna. 

RIP to the unnamed alien captain who sacrificed herself to keep these creatures contained.

Wilf! My guy!

Edited by tennisgurl
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