S02.E02: Some Sort of Trick

[sugarbaker design]

31 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

BTW, I tend to think that Mr. Russell knows that Oscar is gay.  Something about the way he said "marriage of convenience."  He's wordly enough to know about gay men, and Oscar is a little old to be first looking for a wife now. 

Yes, the subtext was intense.  I think Oscar's secret is not as secret as he thinks it is.

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

I'm also interested to see how they met and married so quickly.  My guess is that she was not a ladies maid, but there's some deception involved where she presented as a lady in distress or something like that. 

Yes, I can see that. Actually, I had conflated her with the Murdoch Mysteries villainess Eva Pearce, and I misremembered Turner acting like a damsel in distress to a wealthy man then going off with him. 

However, that's not to say this isn't what Turner did. Of course we'll find out. We know that she is deceitful and without compunction about doing whatever she wants to get whatever she wants. (Hmmm. Sounds like Bertha. And, well, a lot of people.) 

On the other hand, perhaps her husband knows about her background. Otherwise, Bertha would have some power over her, but Turner did not look in the least bit worried.

Edited November 7, 2023 by peeayebee

[iMonrey]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

Armstrong...  I think there's something here beyond garden variety racism of the day.  If Armstrong were racist - that is, more racist than socially acceptable at the time - I think we'd see more of it.  Armstrong wouldn't want to sit at the same table as Peggy, would be making racist remarks, etc.  I can't remember what occurred between them last season, but I don't remember anything on that level. 

The show cannot really portray racism as it would have manifested in those days, they'd really take a lot of heat for it. This is basically a fluffy costume drama, not a hard-hitting docu-series. In real life the things that would be coming out of Mrs. Armstrong's mouth would be so beyond the pale audiences would be in an uproar over it and they would probably lose a lot of viewers. 

So I don't think there's some subtle subtext to any of this or something deeper. Besides, the servant characters aren't really getting the kind of attention the "upstairs" characters are. The writing for them feels rather obligatory and perfunctory. I see no reason to look for deeper meaning to Armstrong's attitude.

[DiabLOL]

2 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

BTW, I tend to think that Mr. Russell knows that Oscar is gay.  Something about the way he said "marriage of convenience."  He's wordly enough to know about gay men, and Oscar is a little old to be first looking for a wife now. 

George Russell 100% knows Oscar is gay.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

Armstrong...  I think there's something here beyond garden variety racism of the day.  If Armstrong were racist - that is, more racist than socially acceptable at the time - I think we'd see more of it.  Armstrong wouldn't want to sit at the same table as Peggy, would be making racist remarks, etc.  I can't remember what occurred between them last season, but I don't remember anything on that level. 

 

 

48 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

The show cannot really portray racism as it would have manifested in those days, they'd really take a lot of heat for it. This is basically a fluffy costume drama, not a hard-hitting docu-series. In real life the things that would be coming out of Mrs. Armstrong's mouth would be so beyond the pale audiences would be in an uproar over it and they would probably lose a lot of viewers. 

So I don't think there's some subtle subtext to any of this or something deeper. Besides, the servant characters aren't really getting the kind of attention the "upstairs" characters are. The writing for them feels rather obligatory and perfunctory. I see no reason to look for deeper meaning to Armstrong's attitude.

Was just going to say exactly what iMonrey is saying. Plus, I get the feeling Fellowes as a pretty rosey view of the past and maybe for him this *is* showing how terribly racist things used to be. Because in reality not only would Armstrong be saying things beyond the pale, but Agnes' defense of Peggy would probably be just as bad.

Regarding the priest, someone mentioned above that Oscar is a bit old to be looking for a first wife. Well, so is he! So they'll probably be some reason he hasn't married yet. Not saying he's gay, necessarily, but he could be. Or else there's some other story. It would be sweet if Ada could actually marry this guy.

I liked listening to Robert Sean Leonard's accent, though. I'm no expert on Boston accents, but it seemed like he just had some subtle signs on his pronunciation of certain words that was endearing without being distracting. 

[EtheltoTillie]

14 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

George Russell 100% knows Oscar is gay.

Yes, I also meant to add he probably already had Oscar followed/investigated thoroughly.  He's no fool. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

Armstrong...  I think there's something here beyond garden variety racism of the day.  If Armstrong were racist - that is, more racist than socially acceptable at the time - I think we'd see more of it.  Armstrong wouldn't want to sit at the same table as Peggy, would be making racist remarks, etc.  I can't remember what occurred between them last season, but I don't remember anything on that level.

I think there is an underlying assumption here that racism or a prejudice shows itself in only a few ways; that Armstrong has to outwardly and blatantly show racism in order to be racist.

My point here is that just because Armstrong is showing her prejudice in a more coded or covert way doesn't mean there has to be an explanation beyond her prejudice. I happen to believe that most racial prejudices occurs covertly, even so in the 1880s. You mention that Armstrong wouldn't want to share a table with Peggy, but I think we learned last season that Armstrong wouldn't even share a whole house with Peggy with walls and doors that create enclosed spaces where she could mind her own business. She tried to get Peggy fired.

Armstrong hasn't tried to get her other co-workers fired. Armstrong hasn't opened and read her other coworkers letters. Armstrong doesn't seem to be concerned with the other staff supposedly ruining the van Rhijn name. Armstrong doesn't seem to believe the other employees will bring trouble into the house. Armstrong would accept help from her white coworker, and not from Peggy who offered.

Armstrong is a grinch in general, but she's more of a grinch towards Peggy. I have a difficult time coming up with any other reason why Peggy gets all that extra special attention.

Edited November 7, 2023 by AntFTW

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

BTW, I tend to think that Mr. Russell knows that Oscar is gay.  Something about the way he said "marriage of convenience."  He's wordly enough to know about gay men, and Oscar is a little old to be first looking for a wife now. 

24 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

George Russell 100% knows Oscar is gay.

10 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Yes, I also meant to add he probably already had Oscar followed/investigated thoroughly.  He's no fool.

I don't think he knows Oscar is gay.

As the audience, we know that it's a marriage of convenience for Oscar. It's also marriage of convenience for Gladys, which George would know. George knows Gladys doesn't really want to marry Oscar, but she considered it for the benefits it would bring to her. It's a sham marriage meant to get Gladys out from under her mother and give herself more freedom, which Oscar promised her. It's a marriage of convenience for both of them.

Edited November 7, 2023 by AntFTW

[Haleth]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Why should Adas have her broken? Maybe she is perfectly content to talk with him now and then.

Or maybe the priest is interested in her also? So far we don't know anything about him, except that he has until now been a mama's boy - suspicious or not?

In my mind Ada = Edith Crawley. This is Julian Fellowes, of course the mousy younger sister will have her heart broken. 

[Sarah 103]

7 hours ago, Haleth said:

George and Bertha may both be ruthless and borderline villains when it comes to getting what they want, but man, they can't keep their hands off each other.  It's nice to see a long married couple who still are crazy about each other.  The way he looks at her?  Smoldering.

Absolutely! Individually, I think George and Bertha are horrible people, but I totally love them as a couple. It's fantastic the way they are there for each other and support each other. The second one really needs help from the other, it's "what can do I?" Aside from Gladys, they are a united front.

I think this is part of why George feels so strongly about a love match for Gladys. He knows the importance of passion and devotion and what a difference it can make if the marriage is a partnership, not an obligation or an arrangement entered into for the sake of convenience.  

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Or maybe the priest is interested in her also? So far we don't know anything about him, except that he has until now been a mama's boy - suspicious or not?

The minister could be gay. At this point I'm not saying for absolute certain, but I'm also not willing to rule out the possibility that he might be. I think he is interested in her on some level, whether it's friendship or something more. If he is gay, Ada is a brilliant choice for a wife. No one would expect children. 

4 hours ago, chaifan said:

I was sort of hoping for the minister to woo Agnes, just so we could see a different side of her.  Would it be socially acceptable for Ada to be wooed by a minister?  I don't know where they fit in in the social structure of the day. 

They are both single and more than enough time has passed for Ada to remarry without anyone commenting about it's too soon after her husband died. They cannot expect him to marry without courting and socializing, so some wooing would be allowed. Financially, it would be a massive step down for Ada, but it would be an acceptable marriage. It would not cause a scandal and I do not think Ada would be snubbed. Anything she would have been invited to before the marriage, she would probably be invited to after the marriage. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Sarah 103

[sugarbaker design]

29 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

They are both single and more than enough time has passed for Ada to remarry without anyone commenting about it's too soon after her husband died.

I'm fairly certain Ada is a spinster.  She has the same last name, Brook, as her brother's daughter Marion.

Edited November 7, 2023 by sugarbaker design

[Pop Tart]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

So I don't think there's some subtle subtext to any of this or something deeper. Besides, the servant characters aren't really getting the kind of attention the "upstairs" characters are. The writing for them feels rather obligatory and perfunctory. I see no reason to look for deeper meaning to Armstrong's attitude.

I think Peggy's race is the primary motivator for Armstrong's bad attitude. But I do also think there's a lot of jealousy over Peggy's job and how it directly connects her to Agnes; in ways that Armstrong can't be connected. Peggy is able to sit in the sitting room and work with Agnes, while Armstrong cannot. Peggy has a freer schedule and can pursue other avenues of work - with Agnes's approval - Armstrong cannot. Peggy can accompany Marion to events, Armstrong cannot. etc. etc.

So for Armstrong, who already considers Peggy less-than because of her race, all of this adds extreme insult to injury. And pair that with what seems to be Armstrong's own sad lot in life (as she views it), ladies maid at the whim of an employer who doesn't seem to value her loyalty and daughter to a bitter, angry, ailing mother (at least I think we saw that last season) and her behavior fits within the bounds of who this character is.

[Sakura12]

Is Armstrong just a racist? What is her issue with Peggy. Anges didn't ask her to be BFF's with her, just be civil and she couldn't even manage that. 

The Oscar and Gladys thing was shot down quickly. Will George be able to stand up to his wife when Gladys finds someone. Also Bertha is in a love match and sees how it benefits her, yet she wants her kids to be miserable in a contract marriage. 

I wonder what other designs the Widow has on Larry. Does she need money? Or is she just lonely and horny. 

Marion's story is still the most dull. Will Anges approve of her marrying thier cousin. 

[chaifan]

5 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Also Bertha is in a love match and sees how it benefits her, yet she wants her kids to be miserable in a contract marriage. 

Do we know how Bertha and George met?  I wonder if they were arranged, as was the norm at the time, and then fell in love.  Or, did they meet "on their own" (as much as that as could have happened at the time), fall in love, and were lucky enough that the families approved of the marriage?  If it's the former, Bertha could simply be in the mindset of first you marry, then you fall in love, since it worked for her.

 

 

[Sakura12]

25 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Do we know how Bertha and George met?  I wonder if they were arranged, as was the norm at the time, and then fell in love.  Or, did they meet "on their own" (as much as that as could have happened at the time), fall in love, and were lucky enough that the families approved of the marriage?  If it's the former, Bertha could simply be in the mindset of first you marry, then you fall in love, since it worked for her

I believe they grew up without lots money, so they wouldn't have to follow the same social rules. So I think they met on their own. 

[Roseanna]

35 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Also Bertha is in a love match and sees how it benefits her, yet she wants her kids to be miserable in a contract marriage. 

Well, Bertha had said that she wants to give Gladys "the world", so she sincerely believes she will be happy. Cf. Peggy's father who sincerely believed that he saved his daughter of misfortune.

And of course it's possible that Glaydys will fall in love in the man Bertha ragards as suitable. If the series were an operatta, a prince would pretend to be a poor man in order to be that the heroine really loves him. 

[ZaldamoWilder]

On 11/5/2023 at 10:41 PM, Jodithgrace said:

I don’t remember most of the subplots from last season. How did Mrs Russel’s lady’s maid end up married to Mr. Old money? Her name is Turner? Or was, that is.

Part of me feels bad for Oscar in his quest for a wife. But mostly I don’t want him to succeed because it’s a terribly unfair life for a wife married to a closeted gay man. One of my favorite films is Maurice (starring a very young Hugh Grant) about two Oxford students who fall in love in 1912, and how Hugh Grant’s character ends up in a closeted marriage of convenience, which is very sad. 
 

I kept thinking that the feckless Mr. Morgan would turn out to be J.P. Morgan, but old JP would already be a big shot by this period,  and not  a drunken youth. Right? Hmmm.  Have to Google. Ok…there was a JPMorgan Jr, but everyone would have known who he was. I

That's what I thought but his name wasn't a two-parter starting with John.  

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Why should Adas have her broken? Maybe she is perfectly content to talk with him now and then.

Or maybe the priest is interested in her also? So far we don't know anything about him, except that he has until now been a mama's boy - suspicious or not?

Because Ada won't marry without Agnes' approval.  Last season when Ada's old boyfriend showed up, Agnes clocked him from the door.  She was cruel and dismissive, but she was also right.  She got him alone in the parlor on some I understand you've come to ask my sister's hand in marriage....you should know she don't have any cash.   Then we saw the smoke in his coattail. 

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I think there is an underlying assumption here that racism or a prejudice shows itself in only a few ways; that Armstrong has to outwardly and blatantly show racism in order to be racist.

My point here is that just because Armstrong is showing her prejudice in a more coded or covert way doesn't mean there has to be an explanation beyond her prejudice. I happen to believe that most racial prejudices occurs covertly, even so in the 1880s. You mention that Armstrong wouldn't want to share a table with Peggy, but I think we learned last season that Armstrong wouldn't even share a whole house with Peggy with walls and doors that create enclosed spaces where she could mind her own business. She tried to get Peggy fired.

Armstrong hasn't tried to get her other co-workers fired. Armstrong hasn't opened and read her other coworkers letters. Armstrong doesn't seem to be concerned with the other staff supposedly ruining the van Rhijn name. Armstrong doesn't seem to believe the other employees will bring trouble into the house. Armstrong would accept help from her white coworker, and not from Peggy who offered.

Armstrong is a grinch in general, but she's more of a grinch towards Peggy. I have a difficult time coming up with any other reason why Peggy gets all that extra special attention.

This.   I was gonna call it garden variety microaggression mixed with flat out jealousy.  I think it's an actual skill set to display this brand of racism so that the subject of your ire is typically the only one to see it accurately.  Yeah Armstrong's mean and ornery and genuinely doesn't like Peggy, but she has no reason to dislike her.  Everyone else thinks she's just "picking on" her, that's why the other servants are all:  girl stop being an asshole, Peggy's just trying to help you.  Armstrong knows that.  If you'd rather take the chance of not finishing your work (in that era) than having a black woman help you finish it, you racist as shit lol.  It just isn't loud.   The coffin closer is she knows that Agnes admires Peggy.  A thing Armstrong will never have, which is a special twist of the knife considering the ingratitude in the dynamic she has with her mother.  

[Maisiesmom]

Well, I'm glad the show is back! I feel sorry for Peggy and her lost child, but do not blame her for wanting to get away from her dad and get back to work. If only that bitch Armstrong will do what Agnes told her to do instead of being such a hosebeast because she's been warned! I laughed when George shot Oscar down in a heartbeat but thought it was great that he told Gladys he would have her back when she found the right man and was in love with him. Their new house is massive-which brings a question to mind-do they take all the servants with them when they go away for the "season"? Or do they hire a temp crew to come in and do the cleaning, cooking, and so on? Marion seems to have grown some backbone since last time and looks like she has a friend in both Oscar and Larry. Speaking of Larry, he's the only one to stand up to his mother (go Larry!) I also liked that George came out to see Bertha and spend some time with her-them rushing out to the other room to make out was kind of romantic. That drunk guy that Mrs. Fane tried to set Marion up with was just pathetic-glad she got away from him. The kicker of course was at the end-freaking Turner shows up with a rich old husband??? How did that happen? Anyway, I'm still liking the beautiful gowns and jewels and see if the story gets better as the show moves along.

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

I wonder what other designs the Widow has on Larry. Does she need money? Or is she just lonely and horny. 

I don't think she needs money since she can afford a massive renovation of her house. My money is on lonely and horny (or as they might have put it, in need of male companionship). 

[kristen111]

8 hours ago, chaifan said:

I agree.  It's not just that he was a rich man who became poor due to a bad investment.  My guess has been that he lost his money in a scandalous way - could have been gambling, or being conned by a mistress, something that would have embarrassed the family and made him cut ties with his wife and children. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Season 1 when Watson confronted Mrs. McNeil, she didn't recognize him, right?  So whatever happened must have happened long ago, when she was a young child.

Honestly, the plot line is boring to me, and unnecessary with everything else going on.  I wish they dropped it as fast as they dropped the "My baby!  Where's my baby!" plot. 

Turner...  damn, they got me on that.  I knew she was coming back, and I did not see that coming.  What's that old line?  Living well is the best revenge.  Yep, and she's doing it in spades!  I'm also interested to see how they met and married so quickly.  My guess is that she was not a ladies maid, but there's some deception involved where she presented as a lady in distress or something like that. 

Armstrong...  I think there's something here beyond garden variety racism of the day.  If Armstrong were racist - that is, more racist than socially acceptable at the time - I think we'd see more of it.  Armstrong wouldn't want to sit at the same table as Peggy, would be making racist remarks, etc.  I can't remember what occurred between them last season, but I don't remember anything on that level. 

Ada and the minister...  that was a cute scene.  Christine Baranski just cuts like no one else can.  I was sort of hoping for the minister to woo Agnes, just so we could see a different side of her.  Would it be socially acceptable for Ada to be wooed by a minister?  I don't know where they fit in in the social structure of the day. 

Marion, Oscar, etc...  I agree with a  post above that talked about seeing more of the friendship between Marion and Oscar this season.  I like that.  I like how he just plopped himself on the sofa and she sat right by him, then asked Aurora to invite him along.  Marion is a much better character this season, and is better acted, too.  Larry and the widow is a fun plot line that could go so many ways.  I wonder how long it takes to do a renovation project like he has planned.  I also think it's funny that Bertha was so upset that Larry was half the widow's age, but apparently that wasn't an issue for Oscar wooing Gladys.  It was never said, oh, Oscar's way too old for her.  Love those double standards of the day... 

This was a great episode.  Loved seeing more of the Newport houses, loved the country club and the tennis match.  Bertha's dresses were stunning.  How far is it from Newport to NYC, and how long did it take back then? 

From N.Y. to Newport ..about 4 hrs, depending on traffic on I-95 now.  In those days, much, much more.  Depending on mode of transportation.

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by kristen111

[Pop Tart]

I was thinking there must have been train travel available to them and found this:

“The track ran from the mainline New York, Providence & Boston stop at Wickford Junction to the port of Wickford, where a company-owned steamboat could bring passengers across to Newport. The N&W began service in 1871, the start of the Gilded Age, and managed to provide combined rail and steamship service until 1925.”

Didn’t find how long it took, but I’m guessing it had to be under a day.

[AntFTW]

22 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

I was thinking there must have been train travel available to them and found this

Also, in the episode, the characters said they were taking a train.

[Haleth]

Even so, I doubt they were running back and forth on weekends just to watch a tennis match. The season at Newport lasted all summer. I think I remember reading families only returned to NYC when opera season was about to begin. 

[Pop Tart]

31 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Also, in the episode, the characters said they were taking a train.

Lol. Have watched a couple times and still missed this. 🙃

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Pop Tart said:

I was thinking there must have been train travel available to them and found this:

“The track ran from the mainline New York, Providence & Boston stop at Wickford Junction to the port of Wickford, where a company-owned steamboat could bring passengers across to Newport. The N&W began service in 1871, the start of the Gilded Age, and managed to provide combined rail and steamship service until 1925.”

Didn’t find how long it took, but I’m guessing it had to be under a day.

I looked at the same information. LOL If you were on the same site I was, there was a schedule for the Junction line that referenced the start and end times of trips.  I glanced at it and it looked like it took most of the day. I think it would only work if the maid had left Newport the day before and was returning early.

 

ETA: My nerdy ass went back and grabbed the image. 

I found this here.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by RachelKM

[kay1864]

On 11/5/2023 at 11:32 PM, txhorns79 said:

Here, I feel like there are at least hints that Mrs. Blaine is the type who will not be ignored, and Larry may regret making sure the curtains matched the drapes. 

I think you meant “carpet matched the drapes”. In any event, I got curious about this, and apparently hair dye was not a thing until about 1907 or later. So Mrs. Blane’s black hair is likely natural.

But geez does she ever move fast, in a time that it took weeks of courting before a man could even hold a woman’s bare hand, and heaven forbid you saw a scandalous bare ankle.

[kay1864]

On 11/5/2023 at 10:15 PM, AntFTW said:

Turner is now a rich man's wife.

I’m confused, why won’t they be shunned in polite society, once it gets out she was a maid?

[AntFTW]

8 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

I’m confused, why won’t they be shunned in polite society, once it gets out she was a maid?

They possibly will be shunned if it gets out that Turner was a lady's maid.

Maybe we'll learn Turner's first name now.

[Camera One]

Now that we know Larry is so easy, maybe Turner bedded him too.

[kay1864]

50 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Now that we know Larry is so easy any 20-something male not under the eye of his mother

Fixed it for you 😆

Edited November 8, 2023 by kay1864

[kay1864]

6 hours ago, RachelKM said:

So Larry entertained Mrs. Blane the rest of the afternoon and most of the evening, and then caught the 1120p train back to New York?

No wonder he needed a shower.

[RachelKM]

4 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

So Larry entertained Mrs. Blane the rest of the afternoon and most of the evening, and then caught the 1120p train back to New York?

No wonder he needed a shower.

The Russells (minus George) were in were already in Newport.  The only reason Bertha wasn't at the tennis tournament is that she was busy doing something with the "cottage," I think. So he didn't have to walk of shame his way across states, just town.

The maid had gone back to Manhattan to pick up the dress Bertha intended to wear at Mr. McAllister's party in Newport the day after the tournament.  She returned to Newport with the house staff that accompanied George when he surprised Bertha. 

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, Maisiesmom said:

Speaking of Larry, he's the only one to stand up to his mother (go Larry!)

Larry lives in his parents house and evidently on his father's money but don't respect his mother even by keeping his sexual relationship discreet - his "standing up to his mother" is a teenager's behavior.  

As Larry is an adult man who has a profession, he should acquire an apartment of his own and live on his rewards. 

BTV, how would Larry became an architect so swiftly? Well, this is a soap.

[Camera One]

19 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

BTV, how would Larry became an architect so swiftly? Well, this is a soap.

Yeah, that was a bit of a jump.  I guess home reno is the first step?

[Roseanna]

13 hours ago, Camera One said:

Yeah, that was a bit of a jump.  I guess home reno is the first step?

In that case anyone could declare himself or herself to be an architect. Our architects studied years at the University of Technology. 

Oh yeah, this is a soap.

[Salacious Kitty]

My dad was an architect. It took many years of school. I don't think Larry would know about the carrying beams needed to replace all those walls when he opens up the Blaine mansion. He's proposing quite the renovation.

[Affogato]

11 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

My dad was an architect. It took many years of school. I don't think Larry would know about the carrying beams needed to replace all those walls when he opens up the Blaine mansion. He's proposing quite the renovation.

Yes, it really is a stretch. I can see him doing an apprenticeship of sorts and meeting someone there, you know, as part of his studies.

22 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I don't think she needs money since she can afford a massive renovation of her house. My money is on lonely and horny (or as they might have put it, in need of male companionship). 

In need of companionship. It sounds like she was married young to an older man who was not the companion she wanted.

[Affogato]

23 hours ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

That's what I thought but his name wasn't a two-parter starting with John.  

Because Ada won't marry without Agnes' approval.  Last season when Ada's old boyfriend showed up, Agnes clocked him from the door.  She was cruel and dismissive, but she was also right.  She got him alone in the parlor on some I understand you've come to ask my sister's hand in marriage....you should know she don't have any cash.   Then we saw the smoke in his coattail. 

This.   I was gonna call it garden variety microaggression mixed with flat out jealousy.  I think it's an actual skill set to display this brand of racism so that the subject of your ire is typically the only one to see it accurately.  Yeah Armstrong's mean and ornery and genuinely doesn't like Peggy, but she has no reason to dislike her.  Everyone else thinks she's just "picking on" her, that's why the other servants are all:  girl stop being an asshole, Peggy's just trying to help you.  Armstrong knows that.  If you'd rather take the chance of not finishing your work (in that era) than having a black woman help you finish it, you racist as shit lol.  It just isn't loud.   The coffin closer is she knows that Agnes admires Peggy.  A thing Armstrong will never have, which is a special twist of the knife considering the ingratitude in the dynamic she has with her mother.  

It is also possible that some servants in New York feel that black people are a threat to their jobs, either actually a threat, or possibly lowering the status of the work.

On 11/7/2023 at 12:38 PM, AntFTW said:

I don't think he knows Oscar is gay.

As the audience, we know that it's a marriage of convenience for Oscar. It's also marriage of convenience for Gladys, which George would know. George knows Gladys doesn't really want to marry Oscar, but she considered it for the benefits it would bring to her. It's a sham marriage meant to get Gladys out from under her mother and give herself more freedom, which Oscar promised her. It's a marriage of convenience for both of them.

I am pretty sure, with the second setup for Oscar (a woman with a paid companion) that basically everyone knows Oscar is gay. I also think that George's emphasis on 'marriage of convenience' and 'you can do better' was telling.

[AntFTW]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

I am pretty sure, with the second setup for Oscar (a woman with a paid companion) that basically everyone knows Oscar is gay. I also think that George's emphasis on 'marriage of convenience' and 'you can do better' was telling.

I wouldn't be shocked if Aurora knows or at least suspects that Oscar is gay. She seems close with her extended family.

George, on the other hand, I'm doubtful. He doesn't have a good impression of Oscar so of course, he'll think his daughter can do better than Oscar. He suspects Oscar is a fortune hunter, which Oscar is. Also, as I mentioned before, I think the term "marriage of convenience" can just as much apply to Gladys.

Edited November 9, 2023 by AntFTW

[RachelKM]

3 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

George, on the other hand, I'm doubtful. He doesn't have a good impression of Oscar so of course, he'll think his daughter can do better than Oscar. Also, as I mentioned before, I think the term "marriage of convenience" can just as much apply to Gladys.

Absolutely.  Marriage of Convenience basically applies for any couple for whom marriage has motivations of mutual benefit other than love, or at least an affectionate marital unit, for instance a political marriage, escaping a domineering household, access to a trust, etc. 

[Roseanna]

On 11/7/2023 at 7:38 PM, AntFTW said:

I don't think he knows Oscar is gay.

As the audience, we know that it's a marriage of convenience for Oscar. It's also marriage of convenience for Gladys, which George would know. George knows Gladys doesn't really want to marry Oscar, but she considered it for the benefits it would bring to her. It's a sham marriage meant to get Gladys out from under her mother and give herself more freedom, which Oscar promised her. It's a marriage of convenience for both of them.

 

15 hours ago, Affogato said:

I am pretty sure, with the second setup for Oscar (a woman with a paid companion) that basically everyone knows Oscar is gay. I also think that George's emphasis on 'marriage of convenience' and 'you can do better' was telling.

 

12 hours ago, AntFTW said:

George, on the other hand, I'm doubtful. He doesn't have a good impression of Oscar so of course, he'll think his daughter can do better than Oscar. He suspects Oscar is a fortune hunter, which Oscar is. Also, as I mentioned before, I think the term "marriage of convenience" can just as much apply to Gladys.

 

11 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Absolutely.  Marriage of Convenience basically applies for any couple for whom marriage has motivations of mutual benefit other than love, or at least an affectionate marital unit, for instance a political marriage, escaping a domineering household, access to a trust, etc. 

George told Gladys that he hadn't answered to Oscar's letter because he hadn't known what his answer would be. The chief point of the discussion was to learn if her daughter was in love or not. 

If George had known that Oscar is gay, he would have had no need to discuss with Gladys. Also his promise to accept her choice if she loved the man would be either pointless - or a lie.   

[Affogato]

45 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

 

 

 

George told Gladys that he hadn't answered to Oscar's letter because he hadn't known what his answer would be. The chief point of the discussion was to learn if her daughter was in love or not. 

If George had known that Oscar is gay, he would have had no need to discuss with Gladys. Also his promise to accept her choice if she loved the man would be either pointless - or a lie.   

If only George were an experienced business man and negotiator he would have known to talk to relevant parties before addressing the issue directly! …Of course he talked to Gladys first. she is his holding in the negotiation. Would he go in blind? His approach would vary depending on what she said. He would want to avoid real unpleasantness and he did, because she was not in love. he does not want to alienate the neighbors. 
 

oscar is not a fortune hunter, btw. George would have checked out potential neighbors before he built his house and agai. When Oscar sniffed around Gladys. He tells Oscar he does not need to aee the financial records and he means it. Oscar is proposing a reasonable alliance within their class, with advantages on both sides. He is not predatory in that way. 
yeah, ‘marriage of convenience’ is a useful term because it can mean a lot of things. It makes no accusations, it is something everyone can hide behind. If Gladys is not going to pursue the alliance nothing more needs to be said. Oscar would have gotten the message. He did get the message. 
 

which brings us to the (I would not have thought subtle) subtext of morgan spector’s performance. I believe he got the point across admirably. To Oscar, anyway. 
 

george is a man of business, a cutthtoat one. I am not saying he doesn’t live his daughter. He does. Bit be will always see the larger picture. 
 

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Affogato

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

oscar is not a fortune hunter, btw. George would have checked out potential neighbors before he built his house and agai. When Oscar sniffed around Gladys. He tells Oscar he does not need to aee the financial records and he means it. Oscar is proposing a reasonable alliance within their class, with advantages on both sides. He is not predatory in that way.

Oscar is a fortune hunter. There is no denying that. He is looking for a woman that is young, stupid and rich. That’s why he believed Gladys to be the perfect girl. She meets all items on his checklist that he wants.

He told the guy he’s sleeping with (I forgot his name) that he needs he needs a woman with money. He also he stopped going around the Russell’s when it looked like they may have lost their fortune last season. The Russells, George specifically, sensed that and Oscar had to try to get back into their good graces.

Oscar is proposing that an alliance that includes a wealthy woman, much wealthier than he is, because he is a fortune hunter. They have made Oscar’s intentions very clear.

Edited November 9, 2023 by AntFTW

[Affogato]

8 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Oscar is a fortune hunter. There is no denying that. He is looking for a woman that is young, stupid and rich. That’s why he believed Gladys to be the perfect girl. She meets all items on his checklist that he wants.

He told the guy he’s sleeping with (I forgot his name) that he needs he needs a woman with money. He also he stopped coming around the Russell’s when it looked like they may have lost their fortune last season. The Russells, George specifically, sensed that and Oscar had to try to get back into their good graces.

Oscar is proposing that an alliance that includes a wealthy woman, much wealthier than he is, because he is a fortune hunter. They have made Oscar’s intentions very clear.

Okay, ‘fortune hunter’ is a perforative term.  There are ni goid fortune hunters in romance novels. However. Oscar’s considering finances is not a perjorative. Yes. He needs a wonan with money. He has been quite open about it. Everyone knows. This group of families are run like businesses. Yes he seeks wealth through marriage. This is unremarkable. He has status and is capable of handling wealth. These are not bad intentions for the place snd time. Note that George is okay with this. George expects ‘fortune hunting’ is part of seeking an alliance with his family. George does not mistrust him for finding Georges wealth desirable. He mistrusts his ability to love George’s daughter. 

[AntFTW]

3 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Okay, ‘fortune hunter’ is a perforative term.  There are ni goid fortune hunters in romance novels. However. Oscar’s considering finances is not a perjorative.

"Considering finances" is a cute way to put it 😂

You make it sound like it's not a determining factor when it is.

4 minutes ago, Affogato said:

He has been quite open about it. Everyone knows.

A select few people know, not everyone.

9 minutes ago, Affogato said:

He mistrusts his ability to love George’s daughter. 

Yes, and the underlying reason for mistrusting Oscar's ability to love Gladys is because she is extremely wealthy.

8 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Yes he seeks wealth through marriage. This is unremarkable. He has status and is capable of handling wealth. These are not bad intentions for the place snd time. Note that George is okay with this. George expects ‘fortune hunting’ is part of seeking an alliance with his family. George does not mistrust him for finding Georges wealth desirable. He mistrusts his ability to love George’s daughter.

Ok, call it whatever you like. Potayto-potahto.

[Affogato]

23 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

"Considering finances" is a cute way to put it 😂

You make it sound like it's not a determining factor when it is.

A select few people know, not everyone.

Yes, and the underlying reason for mistrusting Oscar's ability to love Gladys is because she is extremely wealthy.

Ok, call it whatever you like. Potayto-potahto.

I’m finished. We are apparently watching different shows.  

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

oscar is not a fortune hunter, btw.

Well, in the first season Oscar himself said to his lover that he was searching for a rich wife. That's exactly what a  fortune hunter is. 

Even after Oscar inherits his mum, he wouldn't be rich, unlike Russells. And Agnes may live 20-30 years! 

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

"Considering finances" is a cute way to put it 😂

You make it sound like it's not a determining factor when it is.

It's THE determining factor, or at the least No. 1 factor.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

He would want to avoid real unpleasantness and he did, because she was not in love. he does not want to alienate the neighbors. 

Bertha had already refused Oscar's letters to Gladys. It wasn't evidently alienating neigbors, because Agnes would rather have nothing to do with them.

It doesn't tell good of Oscar that he acted against expressed wish of Mrs Russell. 

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

 Oscar is proposing a reasonable alliance within their class, with advantages on both sides.

Advantages are only on Oscar's side. He has a job in the bank and will one day inherit his mum who, on the basis of her house, isn't rich.

Gladys can do better both financially and socially.  

[AntFTW]

11 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Well, in the first season Oscar himself said to his lover that he was searching for a rich wife. That's exactly what a  fortune hunter is. 

Even after Oscar inherits his mum, he wouldn't be rich, unlike Russells. And Agnes may live 20-30 years! 

11 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

It's THE determining factor, or at the least No. 1 factor.

Right! Oscar wants a level of wealth that he, nor most of the people in his social circle, doesn't have.

Oscar says he has enough that he and Gladys could live a good life. I remember Larry Russell said last season something like Oscar "has a decent position and a bit of money." Oscar wants more. He wants Russell-level wealth or something close enough to it.