S02.E05: Damane

[AnimeMania]

Moiraine and Rand flee for their lives. Egwene and Nynaeve encounter a new foe.  

Premiere Date: September 15, 2023    Prime Video 

[thuganomics85]

Ah, the White Cloaks!  I was wondering when their crazy asses were going to make their return.  The irony is that they sound like they do want to stop the Forsaken as well, but, you know they're still a bunch of religious-like nut jobs, so it's really a "Which evil do I hate less?" situation here.  The actor playing Eamon/head White Cloak guy continues to be perfectly diabolical.

A few new folks arrive and I'm already kind of digging them.  Barthanes must be protected at all cost just for the fact that he is one of the few that can get Moiraine of all folks to let her guard down and show legit happiness for a second.  Plus, Will Tudor tends to be great in everything I've seen him in (Odi in Humans, Olyvar in Game of Thrones.)  And then there is Yasicca/Verin's friend who I automatically love since she's played by Katie Leung a.k.a. Cho Chang!  Always down for a Harry Potter alumni to crash the party (and she also did great voice work as Caitlyn on Arcane.)  Finally, Perrin's new traveling companion seems like she might be a good character to play off Perrin going forward.  And clearly one hell of a fighter.

She might come from a place of ultimate privilege and wealth, but Elayne clearly was the clutch player here by being the one to initially get the trio out of the bad guy's clutches (even if Egwene was recaptured) and savvy enough to know that they need to disguise themselves going forward and that maybe Nynaeve shouldn't be making their presence known that easily in hostile territory.  She really is becoming the best addition to this season.  Actress continues to be great as well.

LIandrin clearly isn't 100% down with the Dark One and the rest of the Forsaken to put it mildly and was this close to throwing down with Suroth.  Curious to see what is in store for her.  Already looks like Yasicca is onto her.

Loved seeing Padan Fain again.  I'm just a sucker for those characters who care about protecting their own asses first, don't give a damn about the consequences for everyone else, and managing to slither on by nine times out of ten.

Another great Moiraine/Anvaere scene that let Rosamund Pike and Lindsay Duncan be their normal awesome selfs, but I think my favorite was the one between The Dark One and Selene.  Fares Fares and Natasha O'Keeffe did a great job at threading the line in a way that they weren't over-the-top/too campy, but clearly showing how sinister and arrogant these two characters are.

Hey, it's a wheel!  But I don't think it is one Rand is going to like very much!

[quarks]

I'm bracing for the "WHERE WAS MAT? WHERE WAS LAN?" comments, but otherwise, this was one of my favorite episodes so far, and I am not just saying that because of Verin and the booze and the arrival of Aviendha!

Ok, I am totally just saying that because of Verin and the booze and the arrival of Aviendha!

But the episode had plenty of other great things too:

1. Though, seriously, the highlight for me WAS mostly, Verin, the booze, and the Browns! Watching a bunch of magical historians/librarians drink it up, gossip, and then start investigating the Tower was exactly what I needed from Verin and this show. Add in Verin's delightful conversation with Liandrin and honestly, forget Rand and the Dragon. Let's just do this.

2. Except then we'd have to give up Lindsey Duncan's Lady Anvaere, and the entire confrontation in the kitchen between her and Moraine, with Rand and [pauses to check IMDB because this show has a LOT OF CHARACTERS, AM I RIGHT] Barthanes Damodred just watching two actors at the very, very top of their game. Just great timing and reaction shots from everyone there. I also liked the quieter scene between Anvaere and Moraine later.

3. Speaking of quieter scenes, Lanfear and Ishamael cheerily discussing all the evil, also brilliant. Not to mention the way Lanfear just casually dismissed all of the other Forsaken as inept or crazy or both. Heh.

Very minor book spoiler:

Spoiler

I also had to crack up at how the show refused to specify which of the guys Lanfear was talking about - to ensure book readers/fans would keep speculating.

4. And speaking of evil, the Seanchan. That bit where they put the device on Egwene and everyone just....watched while she started screaming, just, yikes.

5. Nice entrance, Aviendha!  Very curious to see where and how your team up with Perrin goes. I hope you like wolves!

6. And nice save, Elayne, even if you couldn't manage to save Egwene, too. Also, bonus for trying to get Nynaeve to understand that stealth can be a good thing. Minus several points for getting captured almost immediately after that attempt, but still, bonus.

7. Liandrin: another gift that keeps giving. Seriously, I hope someone remembers to put in an Emmy nomination for Best Supporting Actress for Kate Fleetwood; she's doing just brilliant work here. Loved that she did that tiny tiny little thing to give Nynaeve a chance, and then went right back into full on manipulation mode.

8. And Lanfear going full on Evil Headwear in the final scene. I had to laugh. I'm not 100% sure this plan of trying to chat with Lanfear in dreams is going to work, but, hey, maybe Rand can snatch some normal sleep in between the dream weirdness.

[Danny Franks]

I enjoyed this episode a lot, and it feels like the plot is really ramping up, after a lot of setup.

Heh. I liked the visual representation of Seanchan disgrace - a punitive nail clipping. Suroth certainly has some balls, talking to Ishamael the way she did. I feel like normal Darkfriends should be more cowed by him than they are.

I really liked the way Lanfear's healing was represented - these black tendrils flowing into her from... somewhere. And now she's just being her crazy old evil self. Vindictive and petty and dramatic as fuck.

Moiraine doing the cop show thing of "commandeering this vehicle" made me laugh. It felt so anachronistic. And then they did the old gag about sending Lanfear off after the horses

Aviendha! She's still not what I pictured from the books, but she was immediately amazing. "Perrin Aybara, do you like to dance?" So cool. I love the Aiel.

Dain Bornhald was surprisingly likeable. I twigged early on that it was him, and he was hiding his Whitecloak costume. Perrin revealing he was from the Two Rivers... ah shit.

Verin is still so great, and I love how dorky the other Browns are. But she still seems like she's a lot more aware of everything around her than people think. 

Loved the scene with Suroth and Liandrin - the shared loathing and sniping between them. I found it really interesting that Liandrin freed the girls, just as she left. Yes, she obeyed her master, but she clearly doesn't want the Seanchan enslaving more women who can channel.

Poor Egwene, though. She looks like she's going to be in for a rough time.

Lots of concepts introduced and expanded on in this episode - Compulsion, Tel'aran'rhiod, Tarmon Gaidon (might have been mentioned before, but I don't know if that term was used), the Forsaken/Chosen. Some Aiel lore - Three-Fold Land, Car'a'carn, ji'e'toh. Probably a lot for non-book readers to take in. I wonder whether we should have a thread where these concepts can be explained without spoilers?

Edited September 15, 2023 by Danny Franks

[Chicago Redshirt]

I think it would be useful to have a basic glossary of some of the people, places, concepts, history and customs of this world if people want to create/contribute to one.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Along those lines: this episode talked about how Aes Sedai swear the Three Oaths. I think the show explicitly said previously that one of them was to speak no falsehood, and perhaps in this episode it was alluded to that they cannot use the One Power except against baddies or as a last resort in self-defense/defense of others. I googled and saw that the third oath is to not forge weapons for others.

Lie-andrin admits that she has broken the oaths repeatedly. But previously I had been left with the impression that Moiraine literally could not lie because she took the oaths and magic. Without going into spoilers, is it the case that typically magic stops Aes Sedai from being oathbreakers in this regard and Lie-andrin has gotten a get-out-of-jail-free card somehow through Ishmael/darkfriends, or could any Aes Sedai break their oaths if they wanted to badly enough?

[Lathund]

1 minute ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Lie-andrin admits that she has broken the oaths repeatedly. But previously I had been left with the impression that Moiraine literally could not lie because she took the oaths and magic. Without going into spoilers, is it the case that typically magic stops Aes Sedai from being oathbreakers in this regard and Lie-andrin has gotten a get-out-of-jail-free card somehow through Ishmael/darkfriends, or could any Aes Sedai break their oaths if they wanted to badly enough?

Sticking just to what has been shown/told on the show so far, the Aes Sedai's reactions when confronted by the oaths and the subject of breaking them suggests that at least they consider them impossible to break. And that someone being able to break the oaths is, to put it mildly, sus. 

I don't recall if the show has talked about how the oaths are sworn yet, so I'll leave it at that. 

[Danny Franks]

16 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Along those lines: this episode talked about how Aes Sedai swear the Three Oaths. I think the show explicitly said previously that one of them was to speak no falsehood, and perhaps in this episode it was alluded to that they cannot use the One Power except against baddies or as a last resort in self-defense/defense of others. I googled and saw that the third oath is to not forge weapons for others.

Lie-andrin admits that she has broken the oaths repeatedly. But previously I had been left with the impression that Moiraine literally could not lie because she took the oaths and magic. Without going into spoilers, is it the case that typically magic stops Aes Sedai from being oathbreakers in this regard and Lie-andrin has gotten a get-out-of-jail-free card somehow through Ishmael/darkfriends, or could any Aes Sedai break their oaths if they wanted to badly enough?

The Three Oaths are sworn on the Oath Rod, which Siuan made Moiraine swear on in season one when she was banished. It's a ter'angreal, which is a device that uses the One Power to function, and it binds those who swear to always abide by their oath.

Essentially, Aes Sedai are magically bound to be incapable of telling lies. The Aes Sedai who swear to the Dark One appear to have a way of removing or altering the Three Oaths. So if you catch an Aes Sedai in a lie, they are almost certainly a darkfriend.

However, as we've seen, Aes Sedai can tell the truth in such a way that people believe they've said something very different. I believe there's also a loophole for colloquialisms and idioms. For example, an Aes Sedai could probably say "my ears are burning" if she suspects people are talking about her.

When it comes to using the One Power to attack another person, my understanding is that the weaves would dissipate if an Aes Sedai tried to use them to actually cause serious harm.

The lore behind why they swear these three oaths that limit their abilities is super interesting, and I think Egwene touched on it briefly in season one. They may go into it more deeply on the show at some point.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Danny Franks

[quarks]

12 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Along those lines: this episode talked about how Aes Sedai swear the Three Oaths. I think the show explicitly said previously that one of them was to speak no falsehood, and perhaps in this episode it was alluded to that they cannot use the One Power except against baddies or as a last resort in self-defense/defense of others. I googled and saw that the third oath is to not forge weapons for others.

Lie-andrin admits that she has broken the oaths repeatedly. But previously I had been left with the impression that Moiraine literally could not lie because she took the oaths and magic. Without going into spoilers, is it the case that typically magic stops Aes Sedai from being oathbreakers in this regard and Lie-andrin has gotten a get-out-of-jail-free card somehow through Ishmael/darkfriends, or could any Aes Sedai break their oaths if they wanted to badly enough?

I'm going to put this under spoiler bars as a just in case thing, since I am mentioning later books, although I'm not spoiling any upcoming plot points.
 

Spoiler

The general belief is that the Aes Sedai absolutely cannot break the oaths and lie directly - although they can kinda sorta lie via omission/misdirection, and have developed a reputation for doing just that. It's a magical bond, although at this point in the show and the books the explanation for how it works is left pretty vague. 

(Rand's father in the books notes that a truth the Aes Sedai says may not be the truth you think you hear, a theme that a number of characters repeat in later books.)

In about book three - aka kinda where we are in the show for certain plots (Perrin and the wolves) if not all the plots (Egwene's capture), a few people, including Nynaeve, begin to question this belief - partly because of things said by certain characters, including Liandrin.  Book five drops some huge clues about how all this works.

All that said, though, we don't get specific information about how this all works until books seven, eight and nine. I think, based on a scene or two in season one, that the show is going to explain things just a little bit faster, but I could be wrong here.

 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Without going into spoilers, is it the case that typically magic stops Aes Sedai from being oathbreakers in this regard and Lie-andrin has gotten a get-out-of-jail-free card somehow through Ishmael/darkfriends

Yes and yes.

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

or could any Aes Sedai break their oaths if they wanted to badly enough?

No.

[DoctorAtomic]

As soon as I saw the title of the episode, I said "uh oh". 

It looked to me like Ish was ticked off Suroth got lectured, as if he thought he might have thrown in with the wrong person. 

Credit to Rand for not being a bitch and rolling with Moiraine.  And credit to her for saying she'll actually explain. I'm not sure what sowing one's mouth shut is going to do when they can just write down everything. 

"Do you like the dance?" *veil* That got me going. 

Rand looking completely incredulous in front of Lindsay Duncan was quite amusing. Good work. 

I am *all in* on the Browns. All of them. 

Very helpful Elayne's geography, and trying to keep her wits. 

I suppose Rand was exhausted, but even so, I can't just fall asleep. 

The Behind The Scenes talks about the Dreamworld.

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

perhaps in this episode it was alluded to that they cannot use the One Power except against baddies or as a last resort in self-defense/defense of others.

Yes, but they can still use the One Power to warm the bath or heat up the tea. It's not like they can only use it when there's a fight. (Or spying). 

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Without going into spoilers, is it the case that typically magic stops Aes Sedai from being oathbreakers in this regard and Lie-andrin has gotten a get-out-of-jail-free card somehow through Ishmael/darkfriends, or could any Aes Sedai break their oaths if they wanted to badly enough?

Yes. The Oaths literally prevent them through how the Oaths are taken. It's the rod that binds the Power to the Oaths. They took those specific three, but as we've seen, you can take more oaths. That's it for now though. 

[Avaleigh]

This was my favorite episode so far. 

I really liked the scene with Liandrin and Suroth. They're both crazy and I'm curious to see if they'll ever meet again.

Did Liandrin only help Nynaeve or did she free the wrists for all three of them? Interesting that she wasn't really comfortable with doing this to them. 

When Suroth was talking with Ishamael, I was surpised by how bold she was. In my head I was like 'Umm, I'm not sure that's the guy you can talk to any kind of way.' Same with that other guy she had attitude with before she got her nails cut. 

I really like the scene with Lanfear and Ishamael. Also, Lanfear being the Freddy Kreuger of the Forsaken is pretty fun. How terrifying it must be to not even be safe in your dreams. They're worried about Rand going potentially going mad, but not being able to get any real sleep seems like a sure-fire way to do juat that. 

I'm looking forward to seeing more of the world of dreams.

On 9/15/2023 at 8:40 AM, Danny Franks said:

Aviendha! She's still not what I pictured from the books, but she was immediately amazing. "Perrin Aybara, do you like to dance?" So cool. I love the Aiel.

Same. I really enjoy the Aiel and even though she isn't how I pictured the character, I thought they did a great job of introducing her and I already think the actress is great in the role. Can't wait to see more of her character.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Avaleigh

[areca]

On 9/16/2023 at 2:56 PM, Avaleigh said:

Same. I really enjoy the Aiel and even though she isn't how I pictured the character

Aiel are very purposefully described as tall, light skinned (though tanned from exposure), and often red haired or blond.  Throughout the entire series, Rand is repeatedly mistaken for an Aiel, including by the old veteran from last episode, because they universally look like that. This remains an important plot point throughout the entire series.

Edited September 18, 2023 by areca

[DoctorAtomic]

On 9/16/2023 at 12:56 PM, Avaleigh said:

Did Liandrin only help Nynaeve or did she free the wrists for all three of them? Interesting that she wasn't really comfortable with doing this to them. 

I think she unshielded all of them, but actually freed Ny.

I need a spin off series that's just Brown Ajah. All they do is have drinks and talk about history. 

 

[Tachi Rocinante]

Another very strong episode, but Golden Pacifier Girl is visually distracting.

[Affogato]

14 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I think she unshielded all of them, but actually freed Ny.

I need a spin off series that's just Brown Ajah. All they do is have drinks and talk about history. 

 

Yes, Verin is my favorite. I fear she may not have as important a role as I'd like. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Maybe not. She's taking an active role going to the Tower and wanted to talk to the other three. By definition, Brown is essentially research, so it's good cover by TPTBs to deliver exposition in an entertaining way. 

[staphdude]

On 9/15/2023 at 5:24 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Along those lines: this episode talked about how Aes Sedai swear the Three Oaths. I think the show explicitly said previously that one of them was to speak no falsehood, and perhaps in this episode it was alluded to that they cannot use the One Power except against baddies or as a last resort in self-defense/defense of others. I googled and saw that the third oath is to not forge weapons for others.

Lie-andrin admits that she has broken the oaths repeatedly. But previously I had been left with the impression that Moiraine literally could not lie because she took the oaths and magic. Without going into spoilers, is it the case that typically magic stops Aes Sedai from being oathbreakers in this regard and Lie-andrin has gotten a get-out-of-jail-free card somehow through Ishmael/darkfriends, or could any Aes Sedai break their oaths if they wanted to badly enough?

The Aes Sedai view themselves as above reproach. while a straightforward up is down lie wouldn't work, their approach to most interactions leaves them lots of room for omission and interpretation as they see their own agenda as taking precedence over that of others.

[chaifan]

It's weird... I'm enjoying this show, but I can't say I am following it 1/2 of the time.  I don't understand who the white cloaks are, I don't understand why they had all those people in cages, why did Perrin decide to help just the one, is Rand the Dragon, and what is the Dragon?  Yeah, I know, I feel like the person walking into a movie 1/2 way and annoying everyone in the room with stupid questions. 

I'm chalking most of this up to really not remembering much from Season 1, due to the time lag.  I think I'm conditioned to have a very short term viewing memory, conditioned by regular US tv.  The Brits, and I suppose the rest of Europe, are used to shows being 6-8 episodes, then waiting a year for the next season.  Where American TV was traditionally 20+ episodes a "season" (more or less Sept - April), then summer off, then the next season starts only a few months later.  I think my brain is just lazy.

I loved the discussion above about the oaths and the AS not being able to lie.  That clears some things up.  And I love the Browns.  For all the power of the other AS groups, I like that the historians/librarians are the ones who appear to be saving the world. 

There seems to be an unusual number of bad guys, none of whom really seem to be working together, or at least not very well.  I thought Ishmael was pretty high up in the Dark corporate ladder, but he seems subordinate to the guy that chopped off Suroth's nails. 

One other thought that popped into my head as Lanfear was healing herself...  What if Moraine chopped her into bits?  Or took her head?  Or took her foot so she couldn't run after them?  Would things just regenerate?  Would the pieces parts find themselves back to the main body somehow? 

 

 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

You can go to the book thread and ask us too. We don't shut up about the show. We can hit spoiler bars on major things. 

28 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I don't understand who the white cloaks are, I don't understand why they had all those people in cages, why did Perrin decide to help just the one, is Rand the Dragon, and what is the Dragon?

The Whitecloaks are an uber religious independent army kind of like in the Crusade times, and they are not fans of Aes Sedai. They use 'the Light' to justify a lot. Personally, I think they're a waste of time because I just can't buy in that an independent army is basically tromping all over Europe. 

The people in cages are Aiel, from far in the East. In this episode, Valda said he was concerned that they were this far West because last time, there was a big war (already shown on the show). They're a completely different culture.

I didn't see any more Aiel around, and Perrin was clearly disturbed by seeing another person caged like an animal. That wasn't in the books, but it's good character development on the kind of person Perrin is. 

The 'Dragon' is supposed to be the 'chosen one' who fights the Dark One every so often. That's as general as I should get right now. 

35 minutes ago, chaifan said:

There seems to be an unusual number of bad guys, none of whom really seem to be working together, or at least not very well.

Yes.

36 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I thought Ishmael was pretty high up in the Dark corporate ladder, but he seems subordinate to the guy that chopped off Suroth's nails. 

He is, but that guy is high up in the Seanchan empire. Ishamael threw in with a lower ranked person, and it looked like he wasn't too happy about it. He has to kind of play a little politics here because he's only one person, so he's basically pulling some strings to get them to do what he wants. 

37 minutes ago, chaifan said:

One other thought that popped into my head as Lanfear was healing herself...  What if Moraine chopped her into bits?  Or took her head?  Or took her foot so she couldn't run after them?  Would things just regenerate?  Would the pieces parts find themselves back to the main body somehow? 

This was not in the books. If you look at the scene again, the 'channel' lines were black and not more ephemeral. I took it to be that there is another source that healed her. I wouldn't be surprised if she was chopped up that she'd be reassembled. 

[paigow]

Which Oaths did this guy take??

[AnimeMania]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

I don't understand who the white cloaks are,

They were the ones torturing Perrin and Egwene in Season 1.

There is a recap video for Season 1 in the media section.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I wouldn't be surprised if she was chopped up that she'd be reassembled. 

 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

I thought Ishmael was pretty high up in the Dark corporate ladder, but he seems subordinate to the guy that chopped off Suroth's nails.

Ishamael is the lead Forsaken. High Lady Suroth is both a Darkfriend and a Seanchan High Lady. The former isn't public knowledge. Although the Seanchan are an evil empire, most of them aren't Darkfriends, though they're riddled with Darkfriends like anywhere else. Ishamael was incognito in front of Suroth's superior, High Lord Turak, who is not a Darkfriend.

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

The Whitecloaks are an uber religious independent army kind of like in the Crusade times, and they are not fans of Aes Sedai. They use 'the Light' to justify a lot. Personally, I think they're a waste of time because I just can't buy in that an independent army is basically tromping all over Europe.

As in the books, the show mentioned that the Whitecloaks are headquartered in Amadicia, which they politically control. But they have recruits from other countries as well; anyone who finds their philosophy appealing.

[quarks]

3 hours ago, chaifan said:

It's weird... I'm enjoying this show, but I can't say I am following it 1/2 of the time.  I don't understand who the white cloaks are, I don't understand why they had all those people in cages, why did Perrin decide to help just the one, is Rand the Dragon, and what is the Dragon?  Yeah, I know, I feel like the person walking into a movie 1/2 way and annoying everyone in the room with stupid questions. 

 

Rand is the Dragon - but the characters themselves don't seem to be 100% sure what the Dragon is or what the Dragon is supposed to be doing. So you aren't alone there. And although it hasn't really come up all that much in the show so far, numerous characters in the books have a lot of questions about the Whitecloaks and why they do the various things that they do - so, again, you aren't alone there.

And even on the show we've gotten hints that Perrin, at least, has a lot of questions about the Whitecloaks and what they are up to. So...questions all around! 

In this particular scene, though, it seems that the Whitecloaks put up the cages to terrorize the already terrorized townsfolk. Most of the people in the cages were already dead. Perrin helped the one person who was still alive.

[DoctorAtomic]

23 minutes ago, quarks said:

Rand is the Dragon - but the characters themselves don't seem to be 100% sure what the Dragon is or what the Dragon is supposed to be doing. So you aren't alone there.

If we're being technically correct, which is the best kind of correct, Rand thinks he is the Dragon because the Machin Shin, which may not be a reliable narrator, told him, and Moiraine thinks he is the Dragon based on some prophecy fragments. Moiraine originally thought that the any of the 5 could have been the Dragon, thought that Ny at one point could have been.

I think it's more accurate to say Rand is afraid he is the Dragon. He can't control channeling and he knows he's eventually going to go nuts because Logain isn't particularly stable right now. 

However, there hasn't been any hypothesis testing here. Your null hypothesis is that Rand is the Dragon. If we reject that, was Logain actually the Dragon, but they ended up gentling him because he was legitimately unhinged and could have done a lot of damage? They didn't have any other actionable information. I think that's the false negative. The false positive would be that they think Rand is the Dragon, but there's someone else who actually is. 

I'm actually having more of an academic discussion than is needed because I enjoy the whole philosophy of this universe. If you're a guy, and you discover you can channel, wouldn't you think you might be the Dragon? 

Ish and Lanfear think he is the Dragon, but they haven't really talked about why they think so. 

[quarks]

I would add that Min, too, seems to think that Rand is the Dragon, but otherwise, fair enough. We've seen several characters on the show wonder if they are the Dragon - our Main Five, plus Logain, and heard about another potential Dragon who has not appeared on screen yet, so, sure...there are other possibles out there.

The only character who seemed to be 100% identified as the Dragon was the one in the season one finale flashback to thousands of years ago, in the city with the flying cars - Lews Therin Telamon. 

[chaifan]

Thank you, everyone.  The comments today have been really helpful.  I totally forgot about "the Dragon" from Season 1.  I mean, I knew that Moraine thought one of the gang could be the chosen one, but I forgot they were calling that the Dragon.  And I'm glad that there aren't solid answers to some of this stuff, that makes me feel a little better and not as clueless as I thought I was.

If the Dragon is all that prevents The Dark from winning the Last Battle, and if Ishmael & Lanfear/Selene think Rand is the Dragon, then why didn't they just kill him?  I suppose the answer is "plot", but this just seems to be a version of telling the hero exactly how you're going to kill him in some elaborate fashion, giving him every chance to escape.  

Also, just a random thought/observation... for a fantasy world built around the power of women, it's a little frustrating that the savior of the world is a man.  So I'm hoping that Rand isn't the Dragon, and it's Ny or Egwaine, or even Elayne.  Hell, I'd be jumping for joy if they did a really big twist and made the Dragon Liandrin.  Or they could go the Buffy route and make it Moraine's little sister.  🤣

[DoctorAtomic]

We don't have confirmation that Min's visions are reliable either iirc. 

6 minutes ago, chaifan said:

If the Dragon is all that prevents The Dark from winning the Last Battle, and if Ishmael & Lanfear/Selene think Rand is the Dragon, then why didn't they just kill him?

Why were Darth Vader and Palpatine separately training apprentices? Why was Palpatine pitting Anakin and Dooku off each other?

Palpatine could have easily killed Anakin when he was a little boy.

[quarks]

Correct on Min's visions - especially since a couple of her visions last season turned out to be kinda misleading.  Like, yes, as she saw, Rand did end up carrying a baby in the future - but it was a dream baby in an alternative reality apparently created by Ishamael, not a real baby in the show.

In terms of why Ishamael and Lanfear haven't killed Rand yet - well, Ishamael and many other characters seem to think that Rand could potentially serve the Dark One, so....why kill a potential ally, and Lanfear apparently thinks that Rand is good in bed, or, at least, looks really good tied up to a stone wheel.

[DoctorAtomic]

Moiraine also said that Lanfear was totally in love with Lews in this episode before Rand conked out. If she thinks Rand *is* Lews (speculation not spoiler), she's thinking this time around she can have him or just totally mess with his mind as revenge. 

4 minutes ago, quarks said:

In terms of why Ishamael and Lanfear haven't killed Rand yet - well, Ishamael and many other characters seem to think that Rand could potentially serve the Dark One, so....why kill a potential ally, and Lanfear apparently thinks that Rand is good in bed, or, at least, looks really good tied up to a stone wheel.

She's the cougar here. Rand is what? 23? She actually succeeded. He told her he was in love with her. If Moiraine didn't show up when she did, it's entirely possible Lanfear drags Rand in front of the Dark One. That she was able to pull it off so easy is alarming. Regardless of Dragon, Rand can channel and he's powerful; i.e., Anakin situation. 

That's a big coup in the Foresaken game of thrones. Also, he might be really good at teh secks, so added bonus for her. 

[tennisgurl]

If I had to choose a group in the tower to join, I would absolutely choose the Browns. Getting drunk in the library with your friends while researching history, what's not to love? These are clearly my people. 

I really liked this episode, but I admit that I spent half of the episode begging someone to just turn on a damn light. Cant we have a few more scenes in the daytime or with a whole lot of candles? I really like this season, but its starting to hurt my eyesight! 

Just when you start feeling sympathy for Liandrin, she does shit like this. I have really liked seeing her becoming more three dimensional this season, its always good to remember how much I want to smack that smug look off her face.

The Seanchan are just so much, with their giant nails and their manicure punishment, its going to be interesting to see how the factor into this. We also see the White Cloaks again, I was just wondering where they had gone off to. There are so many bad guy factions, you start to hope they all just kill each other but the good guys aren't that lucky.

It seems like poor Nynaeve is going to be in for a rough time.

[MissLucas]

Late to the White Cloak discussion: I always pictured them as a cross between the Inquisition and the Knights Templar (bit ironic but nevermind). The whole white cloak thing kinda forces your brain into that direction anyway.

[DoctorAtomic]

That's a good analogy too. I was thinking Crusaders because they stomp around other sovereign lands and just take what they want. The Aes Sedai aren't under any formal national jurisdiction, but I don't think it's lawful to just abduct them and cut their fingers off either. 

[Ottis]

I couldn’t help but think that they could have started this entire series, pilot episode, with this episode and it would have been 1,000 times more interesting than what we have seen. There was urgency and danger and mystery, damn it, actually interesting stuff. They could have then filled in the blanks as the episodes continued, and again, that would have been far more intriguing pacing than the yawn fest we have seen. Oh well. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Ottis

[Noneofyourbusiness]

13 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

The Aes Sedai aren't under any formal national jurisdiction, but I don't think it's lawful to just abduct them and cut their fingers off either. 

IIRC, the Whitecloaks in the book are more cautious about actually attacking Aes Sedai, despite their bluster.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[DoctorAtomic]

I think that's correct. They just annoy me because we haven't seen a sovereign nation invite them to maintain order, or whatever. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

4 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I think that's correct. They just annoy me because we haven't seen a sovereign nation invite them to maintain order, or whatever. 

If they had been, they'd likely be less cautious (other than in Amadicia, where they don't have to be).

[Absurda]

On 9/17/2023 at 8:55 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I need a spin off series that's just Brown Ajah. All they do is have drinks and talk about history. 

And gossip!  Don't forget the gossip.  I love the browns so far and wish we could spend some time with them.

There's a Wheel of Time wiki on Fandom (https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/A_beginning ) that I've found really helpful in filling in some gaps in the mythology/cultures/backstories/character types, etc.  There are book spoilers there and they talk about characters we don't know or haven't been introduced to in the show but I've still found it helpful.

[akiss]

Phew, that was a rough episode, but I loved it. Everyone had something to do and everyone shined and Lanfear is delightful.

I had seen the actor in Peaky Blinders but I didn't particularly liked her threre (granted her role was bland) but here she shines!

 

Egwene's story is the most interesting to me at the moment and the actor certainly delivers.

[areca]

On 9/19/2023 at 2:44 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Although the Seanchan are an evil empire

I never actually found the Seanchan to be evil per se.  They were likely as close to the Old World Order as possible, and they had pretty strict codes and directives that traced all the way back to the voice of authority.  Like, for real and without doubt.  Renna kind of hit on it in the last episode, they were, ultimately, fighting for the most noble cause of the Light.

[DoctorAtomic]

What they thought the Old World Order was, or should be. We don't really know how Hawkwing ruled when he united the continent. They left the continent and basically remained static while the rest of society evolved, sort of. They're kind of a fascist society.

They're an invading force. They ripped apart Falme and killed everyone who didn't bend the knee using their slaves. From that pov, I can understand them being characterized as evil. 

 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 1/2/2024 at 11:51 PM, areca said:

I never actually found the Seanchan to be evil per se.  They were likely as close to the Old World Order as possible, and they had pretty strict codes and directives that traced all the way back to the voice of authority.  Like, for real and without doubt.  Renna kind of hit on it in the last episode, they were, ultimately, fighting for the most noble cause of the Light.

They have slaves. They break women's wills to make slaves of them. They kill people to take their land. That makes them an evil empire no matter what else they do and whatever delusions they have about being the good guys. Slave ownership and genocide in America were evil, too. A world where slavery continued forever would be just as unthinkable as one ruled by the Dark One.

Edited January 17 by Noneofyourbusiness