S03.E08: Sitzprobe

[Yeah No]

9 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Yes, the presumption was that Loretta had a scrapbook devoted to Ben, but it was Dickie. So the photos were all about Dickie, not Ben.

So therefore there were no photos just of Dickie alone, only with him and Ben in them?  Because I would think that the photos themselves would make it somewhat obvious who the album was all about just from looking at them.  Weird.

[ofmd]

They were photos from magazines and newspapers, and Ben was a star. Dickie wasn't.

[Yeah No]

2 minutes ago, ofmd said:

They were photos from magazines and newspapers, and Ben was a star. Dickie wasn't.

In that case I would find it strange that he should be in so many photos with Ben in the first place if he wasn't a star.   I realize he was involved but still....A whole ALBUM full of them?  Whatever, I suppose I have to suspend disbelief on some things with this show.  It just seems to me that this season is a little more quirky than the first two in ways that aren't my cup of tea.  I realize that seems to be an unpopular opinion.  I'm missing the street scenes in NYC and location shooting.  Everything is concentrated in the theater and apartments.  I'm just happy that our favorite cop is back!

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

In that case I would find it strange that he should be in so many photos with Ben in the first place if he wasn't a star.   I realize he was involved but still....A whole ALBUM full of them?  

Theh whole album doesn't have to be full of pictures of Ben with Dickie in the background. All articles about Ben that Loretta could connect to Dickie are also in there--like him coming to Broadway. She also knew the family so might other stuff from childhood that wouldn't be immediately recognizeable as connected to Ben. Oliver just opened the middle and saw pictures of Ben.

So she might have an article about Ben taking a job that would relate to Dickie as his manager, but not one about Ben getting into a DUI while filming CoBro. 

[Yeah No]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Theh whole album doesn't have to be full of pictures of Ben with Dickie in the background. All articles about Ben that Loretta could connect to Dickie are also in there--like him coming to Broadway. She also knew the family so might other stuff from childhood that wouldn't be immediately recognizeable as connected to Ben. Oliver just opened the middle and saw pictures of Ben.

So she might have an article about Ben taking a job that would relate to Dickie as his manager, but not one about Ben getting into a DUI while filming CoBro. 

I hate to say it but I think the show is just starting to annoy me and I never thought that would ever happen as I LOVED the first two seasons.  This season there are too many quirky characters and red herrings, things to throw you off.  I could spend hours trying to figure out what's happening and get nowhere.  It has ceased to be enjoyable for me.  Maybe it's partly because I am not into the theater at all and so some of the people, situations and references are lost on me or even if they're not lost, I'm not feeling them.  I think I like this season better when I just consider it an eccentric lark, not a murder mystery to pick apart and unravel with a microscope.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

In that case I would find it strange that he should be in so many photos with Ben in the first place if he wasn't a star.   I realize he was involved but still....A whole ALBUM full of them?  Whatever, I suppose I have to suspend disbelief on some things with this show. 

It’s not a very big album, and it covers nearly 50 years.
Since they’re all news clippings rather than family photos, it seems reasonable to accept that Dickie was never in any news articles by himself, especially if Loretta didn’t start keeping clippings until they were related to acting and theater. 
(The childhood pictures would also be clippings from articles about Ben.)
So, no spelling bee or other clippings of just Dickie.

Edited September 24, 2023 by shapeshifter

[redpencil]

16 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

And serious props to Steve Martin for performing the Patter Song so beautifully.  It truly is like a Gilbert and Sullivan piece.

I got a big kick out of watching the other members of the cast in the background of his performance. I'm sure many of their reactions were the genuine reactions of the actors watching Steve Martin as Charles, that also worked for their characters watching Charles finally nail the song.

[Blakeston]

16 hours ago, KerleyQ said:

Early in the season, I thought it had to be Donna and/or Cliff. Then I got distracted by the idea of Ben being a twin (or triplet) and Loretta's son. But, that's all been shot to hell over the past couple episodes, so I think I'm back to Donna/Cliff. If it's Donna doing it for Cliff (for some reason we'll find out), then it parallels Loretta/Dickie, in that Loretta confessed to protect Dickie, which fits into Donna talking about how you'll do anything for your child. And, even though they're connected to the play, nobody (on screen) has seemed to mention them as part of the cast and crew under suspicion. And that would fit with the lines in the song about being too focused on the nursery and needing to look outside of it for suspects. 

I think Tobert will turn out to have some other secret he's hiding, but I don't think he's the killer. 

I think the "look outside the nursery" part was very significant. I suspect that Donna and/or Cliff are responsible for one of the two attempts on Ben's life, but not the other. And I took the outside of the nursery part to mean someone who isn't connected to the musical.

Tobert would seem to be the most obvious suspect, but the obvious reason for him to kill Ben is that it would be good for his documentary. And that would be way too similar to the season two killers' motive, so I don't think that's it.

Regarding Dickie and Loretta, I have to wonder if Dickie already knows that Loretta is his mother (or at least strongly suspects it). The way he looks at her shows that he sees her as a maternal figure the very least, at. It could just be that she's filling that role in his life in a way that no one else has, but it's pretty blatant.

 

 

[KerleyQ]

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Tobert would seem to be the most obvious suspect, but the obvious reason for him to kill Ben is that it would be good for his documentary. And that would be way too similar to the season two killers' motive, so I don't think that's it.

Yeah, he'd basically be a combination of season 1 (love interest of one of the three) and season 2 (killing someone to do a story about it). That would be so lazy of the writers. 

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Regarding Dickie and Loretta, I have to wonder if Dickie already knows that Loretta is his mother (or at least strongly suspects it). The way he looks at her shows that he sees her as a maternal figure the very least, at. It could just be that she's filling that role in his life in a way that no one else has, but it's pretty blatant.

I was wondering this, too. I still wouldn't rule him out as being responsible for at least one of the attempts. Maybe he knew who Loretta was and didn't like how Ben was treating his mother? 

On a related note, is it just me, or does Jeremy Shamos (Dickie) have some kind of vague resemblance to Meryl Streep? 

[peeayebee]

It's not just you. I brought up some images of him, and yes he looks like he could be related to Meryl. (Not that he is, but there's a resemblance.)

[Yeah No]

2 minutes ago, KerleyQ said:

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Tobert would seem to be the most obvious suspect, but the obvious reason for him to kill Ben is that it would be good for his documentary. And that would be way too similar to the season two killers' motive, so I don't think that's it.

Yeah, he'd basically be a combination of season 1 (love interest of one of the three) and season 2 (killing someone to do a story about it). That would be so lazy of the writers. 

True, but isn't it a thing with this show to wait until the last minute to reveal the killer's full motivations?  It may look on the surface like Tobert's motive may be because it would be good for his documentary, but he may have other motives not yet revealed by the show.  Of course that could be true of several other potential suspects too.

Also, I still think Mabel's unquestioning acceptance of Tobert's honesty and innocence and is problematic.  I think she should be more skeptical of his motives in all of this, and the show hasn't made him look decidedly innocent yet either.  We have not seen much of him nor his relationship with Mabel either, which I think is interesting.  It's probably coming in a future episode when more light will be shed on him and his potential motive - OR - more will be shown to us to confirm his innocence.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

13 hours ago, redpencil said:

I got a big kick out of watching the other members of the cast in the background of his performance. I'm sure many of their reactions were the genuine reactions of the actors watching Steve Martin as Charles, that also worked for their characters watching Charles finally nail the song.

Not trying to destroy the illusion, but Steve Martin's performance of the song (for a heavily-edited TV show), unlike Charles's (in rehearsal for a live play), was almost definitely not done in a single sitting.

Is Joy no longer working on the show after her break-up with Charles? I haven't looked at IMDb to see if it indicates how many episodes she is in this season, but although in real life it might make sense for Joy to quit, I hope that we haven't seen the last of (a rational) Andrea Martin. 

[peeayebee]

53 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Not trying to destroy the illusion, but Steve Martin's performance of the song (for a heavily-edited TV show), unlike Charles's (in rehearsal for a live play), was almost definitely not done in a single sitting.

Oh hush. ;)

I've completely forgotten about Joy. I liked Andrea Martin, but honestly I haven't missed her/Joy. Still, I hope she comes back just because it would be weird if she were simply gone.

[paigow]

Dickie seems to have been well treated by his foster parents, despite being displaced by Ben. Granted, he might have some issues, but longing for a maternal figure is unlikely.

[ofmd]

3 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Also, I still think Mabel's unquestioning acceptance of Tobert's honesty and innocence and is problematic.  I think she should be more skeptical of his motives in all of this, and the show hasn't made him look decidedly innocent yet either.

I agree, particularly after season 2! And then he presents her with the Bloody Mabel poster... All her alarm bells should have gone off!

[secnarf]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Dickie seems to have been well treated by his foster parents, despite being displaced by Ben. Granted, he might have some issues, but longing for a maternal figure is unlikely.

They had adopted him, they weren't his foster parents.

I do agree that Dickie has, multiple times, been shown to be looking at Loretta as if he knows she is his biological mother - one that comes to mind is as she is singing the lullaby, but there are other examples too, including in this episode as he was watching her. If he didn't know she is his biological mother, I don't know what the reason for those looks would be.

[Quilt Fairy]

7 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Is Joy no longer working on the show after her break-up with Charles?

I don't remember if Joy was actually working on the show, just that she was there opening night.  But in any event, you wouldn't need a makeup person at this kind of rehearsal. 

[redpencil]

10 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Not trying to destroy the illusion, but Steve Martin's performance of the song (for a heavily-edited TV show), unlike Charles's (in rehearsal for a live play), was almost definitely not done in a single sitting.

Sure, doesn't mean the actor's reactions weren't genuine in that moment.

[Milburn Stone]

12 hours ago, secnarf said:

If [Dickie] didn't know she is his biological mother, I don't know what the reason for those looks would be

My interpretation has been that he doesn't know--consciously--that she is his biological mother. But that he does know unconsciously. Our emotions are largely driven by the subconscious and the unconscious. Our genes and our earliest experiences are powerful, whether we know what they're up to in there or not.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Milburn Stone

[Athena]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

My interpretation has been that he doesn't know--consciously--that she is his biological mother. But that he does know unconsciously. Our emotions are largely driven by the subconscious and the unconscious. Our genes and our earliest experiences are powerful, whether we know what they're up to in there or not.

Agreed. It's too bad we haven't seen more interactions between the two because Loretta has probably been doting on him for months. He was likely missing that in his life working with and being overshadowed by Ben. As people we react to how we are treated and she's treated him with more affection especially maternally than he has had in a long time. At the very least, they are very good friends now so I don't see how he wouldn't be affected or admire her talent like Oliver.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

My interpretation has been that he doesn't know--consciously--that she is his biological mother.

I’m interpreting Dickie’s not-so-secret, pained, longing looks at Loretta as an indication that he did a commercial gene test and paid (if necessary) for online access to Loretta’s background info, and is 99% sure she is his birth mother.

[paigow]

12 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I’m interpreting Dickie’s not-so-secret, pained, longing looks at Loretta as an indication that he did a commercial gene test and paid (if necessary) for online access to Loretta’s background info, and is 99% sure she is his birth mother.

So now this is Only Blacklists In The Building ??? Where characters refuse to communicate critical information / share helpful  knowledge

[JenE4]

25 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I’m interpreting Dickie’s not-so-secret, pained, longing looks at Loretta as an indication that he did a commercial gene test and paid (if necessary) for online access to Loretta’s background info, and is 99% sure she is his birth mother.

That is a very specific interpretation of a look! I’m team he doesn’t know, but has an affinity for Loretta because she is obviously sending “love and caring vibes” his way. The fact that she wrote him a letter to finally reveal she’s his birth mother seems to imply that he doesn’t know yet. If he somehow did secret DNA tests on every woman who has ever been kind to him in his life, then that kind of takes the “power” out of the letter. If it’s a plot point that he already knew, then it would make more sense for him to have already received such a letter and the trio would have found it in his possession instead of Loretta’s.

Edited September 25, 2023 by JenE4

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

My interpretation has been that he doesn't know--consciously--that she is his biological mother. But that he does know unconsciously. Our emotions are largely driven by the subconscious and the unconscious. Our genes and our earliest experiences are powerful, whether we know what they're up to in there or not.

Yes, having her sing that lullaby to him so sincerely could really hit him even if he hadn't realized he was longing for that kind of attention. In a room full of people he's not used to somebody picking him for that sort of attention, and maybe saw it directed Ben's way from a young age.

Edited September 25, 2023 by sistermagpie

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, JenE4 said:

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I’m interpreting Dickie’s not-so-secret, pained, longing looks at Loretta as an indication that he did a commercial gene test and paid (if necessary) for online access to Loretta’s background info, and is 99% sure she is his birth mother.

That is a very specific interpretation of a look! I’m team he doesn’t know, but has an affinity for Loretta because she is obviously sending “love and caring vibes” his way. The fact that she wrote him a letter to finally reveal she’s his birth mother seems to imply that he doesn’t know yet. If he somehow did secret DNA tests on every woman who has ever been kind to him in his life, then that kind of takes the “power” out of the letter. If it’s a plot point that he already knew, then it would make more sense for him to have already received such a letter and the trio would have found it in his possession instead of Loretta’s

My interpretation of the closeups of Dickie looking at Loretta are based upon a variety of similar bio-parent discoveries within just my extended family over the years since the internet and 23andMe (and other commercial gene registries) became available.

Loretta writing Dickie a letter of explanation only implies to me that there has not yet been any discussion about their being mother and son.
Loretta writing the letter could even have been partly motivated by her sensing that Dickie at least suspects she is his mother, and therefore she wants a chance to explain things before they openly acknowledge the facts of their biological relationship.

[KerleyQ]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I’m interpreting Dickie’s not-so-secret, pained, longing looks at Loretta as an indication that he did a commercial gene test and paid (if necessary) for online access to Loretta’s background info, and is 99% sure she is his birth mother.

It just occurred to me that it's possible Dickie has seen pictures of young Loretta at some point. Since, if I recall her story correctly, he was adopted by a family her family knew, it's entirely possible that he may have known some little bit about her or has seen pictures of her from around the time of his birth. So, she may seem familiar to him, even if he didn't place that familiarity (while she would still look similar, people's looks can change enough over that span of time that they aren't going to look enough like their younger self that it's obvious who they are). So, he may not absolutely know she's his birth mother, but she may feel/seem familiar to him without him realizing why. 

[LadyintheLoop]

Maybe Dickie felt an inexplicable bond with Loretta because he'd heard her voice in utero.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 9/24/2023 at 5:13 PM, ofmd said:

I agree, particularly after season 2! And then he presents her with the Bloody Mabel poster... All her alarm bells should have gone off!

Yeah, and where is Cinda (Tina Fey)?

[J-Man]

On 9/20/2023 at 9:24 AM, chaifan said:

Did anyone notice what was on the screen during the credits?  On the left.  It was too small and I was too lazy to get off the couch to see what it was.

It was Loretta's bus ticket from St. Louis to New York.

On 9/23/2023 at 10:00 AM, sistermagpie said:

have never been certain whether or not that's supposed to be Howard in the animated opening sequence. It seems odd that the four people depicted in the titles would be Charles, Oliver, Mabel and . . . Howard?

The actor who plays Howard (Michael Cyril Creighton) is the only one other than the three stars who is credited in the opening sequence. The only exception is when there's  a "special guest star" like Streep or Rudd. Everyone else, including all the other regulars and other guest stars like Jesse Williams are in the closing credits. 

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, J-Man said:

The actor who plays Howard (Michael Cyril Creighton) is the only one other than the three stars who is credited in the opening sequence. The only exception is when there's  a "special guest star" like Streep or Rudd. Everyone else, including all the other regulars and other guest stars like Jesse Williams are in the closing credits. 

And now I'm wondering if Michael Cyril Creighton (Howard) got paid extra for having his cartoon likeness in the opening credits. 
Probably not.
But maybe they couldn't give him a raise in salary, and offering him a spot in the animated intro was supposed to make up for it? 
Or the illustrator just thought it would be a nice tie-in to the "in the Building" part of the show.

Edited October 14, 2023 by shapeshifter

[aradia22]

Lots of drama in this episode. Of course I knew they weren't going to kill Oliver, but it was still well-acted.

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So the visiting director from New York was Dickie's father? Wonder if he really thought Loretta was any good or if he was even a director. Poor girl.

I got a little nervous that it might have somehow been Oliver. I know the ages and actors don't really match up but that doesn't count for much on TV. Glad they didn't go that route. 

I loved Howard's involvement in this episode. Admittedly, my fondness for Creighton is growing because of the aftershow but I feel like they found a proper use for him piecing together the shredded papers... unlike the way they've been shoehorning in Uma. Let Howard on the podcast!

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And kudos to SM for that tour de force patter song.

Shaiman and Wittman have been doing kind of boring work for a while. I was shocked to see that the Pickwick Triplets song was their work. Steve Martin did a great job... even though I knew he would, it was still satisfying to see "Charles" pull it off, especially as a distraction for Detective Williams. 

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I loved everything about this episode. Please, don't make the murderer Dickie or Loretta. I love them. Actually, I like most of the cast this season. I want everyone to be happy lol. 

Same. They did a lovely job of introducing new characters and not having anyone you'd want to be the killer. 

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If there is a clue in there, I wonder if it's in the last verse, saying that they should be looking outside of the cast/crew.

I've always thought looking at the cast was a misdirect to waste time during the season and not get to the real killer too early. 

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I hope millennials are watching this show so they will finally hear the names Gilbert and Sullivan.

Am millennial. Try Gen Z. Though The Mikado is probably too problematic for them to ever get on board. 

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She has a definite flat affect in her performance. I've never seen her in anything else so I don't know if it's a character choice or if she's just like this. 

I haven't seen her act in anything else since her lupus got bad but she wasn't like this as a child actress. I'm assuming it's a character choice or something affecting her ability to emote but generally, I think it works for Mabel.

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Yeah, Tobert definitely seems like he's the odd man out here with everything he's doing.

I don't know why they made him so sus except as a red herring.

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I loved Mabel's prep talk to Howard.  We know Howard is going to find something, but what?  (I love the automatic assumption that the shred bin hasn't been emptied in what now, months?)

Yeah, that was strange. I know they've been out of the theater (weirdly) most of the time as they've switched to a musical but has no one needed a paper shredder?