S02.E03: What Might Be

[AnimeMania]

Nynaeve faces her greatest fears. Rand seeks guidance on his powers from an unexpected source.

Premiere date: September 1, 2023    Prime Video      

Edited September 2, 2023 by AnimeMania

[thuganomics85]

Always down for a sudden Lindsay Duncan appearance!  Wouldn't mind seeing her character again.  Not too surprised to see that the wealthy of this world are just as awful as pretty much anywhere else.  Definitely think they'll end up having karma due a number on them by the end of all of this.

So, Nynaeve's test/fears seem to be based on past, present, and the potential future.  For the past, it was reliving her parents getting killed while she hid in the basement (understandable since she was only a child.)  For the present, it was going back to Two Rivers and seeing that the plague has done a number on everyone (including Tam!  Noooo!), and she isn't there to help.  Finally, the future is her and Lan together (almost forgot that was a thing) and having a peaceful life with a child (along with visits from Uncle Perrin and Mat!), only for it to all come crashing down.  But at least she did pass in the end, but this will clearly do a number on her going forward.

Egwene standing up to Liandrin was reckless but still kind of awesome.

Should have known Mat's freedom was going to be an act, but I didn't predict that Min was actually working for Liandrin this entire time.  She is already showing the classic conflicted face though, so we'll see how long this lasts.

Rand's powers are becoming even more uncontrollable and Logain really isn't all that helpful at the moment...

The Dark One is really interested in poor Perrin!

[SueB]

Tough episode (in terms of twists and turns)

Uno!   What a horrible way to die. 
Thank you Elyas for saving Perrin. 
Rand in red - yes, that works.  (Sorry, stepped into the shallow end of the pool for a moment).  He really is playing a very dangerous game.  He’s lucky Selene doesn’t seem to judge him. And screw you Logain for not helping Rand.  
Mat deciding not to go to Egwene!  Why!!!   Made me sad.  And I LIKE Min.  Her working for Liandrin is gross. But she seems unhappy about it so okay. 
Egwene & Elayne: nice team up.  So glad they were there for Nynaeve. 
Nynaeve: what a great life, til it wasn’t.  Only Nynaeve could do the impossible and come out after being in there for so long.  And how do get over losing a child!?

I am ready for more!

[paigow]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

Egwene & Elayne: nice team up.  So glad they were there for Nynaeve. 

Unfortunately, they did not know to bring a jug of water for sin cleaning... 

[quarks]

Lindsey Duncan playing a Cairhenen noble who [cut for minor book spoiler]

Spoiler

as per IMDB and the Companion volume that I keep checking turns out to be Moraine's sister? This is why I keep checking the Companion volume. I completely forgot that Moraine HAD sisters. Anyway

turned out to be everything I ever wanted; that was great, and, with the Logain bits, made me able to say more than Rand and Selene were in this episode. I can now say, Rand and Selene, were in this episode! With Lindsey Duncan and Logain!

However, if it isn't obvious, even with Lindsey Duncan, and with Logain's whole, hey, you got me the great wine! Thanks! Still not planning to be helpful here! I found all of that a lot less compelling than, well, everything else.

Min and Mat: continues to be a hilarious team-up. I genuinely love what the show is doing with Min here, and intrigued to see how this little Liandrin team-up will play out. Agreed that Min looked very conflicted here - though, since Min's also had a vision of Mat stabbing Rand and Liandrin is Liandrin, I gotta say, I would be conflicted too.

Elayne and Egwene: also a great teamup, even with Elayne apparently knowing a few things about the Accepted test that she...probably shouldn't know, given that whole "Two things I will tell you that no woman ever hears until she enters this room...." bit. But it was a nice reminder that Elayne's apparently been embedded with the Aes Sedai for years and is very familiar with the White Tower, so I'll let that pass. For now. 

Perrin's team and the Seanchan: YIKES. Everything about that was just brutal and creepy, from Uno's death, to the gagged woman walking around pointing at other women; to High Lady Suroth just moving her overly long fingernails and Ishamael just looking around going, this is great. And that final scene with Perrin. YIKES. YIKES. YIKES.

Sorry to lose Uno, who was bringing much needed humor to that grimness of that whole plot line, but....on the bright side, I guess, talk about memorable deaths!

But the highlights of the episode for me, once again, were Nynaeve and Liandrin. Both of these actors are killing it, every single scene. Great fakeout with Nynaeve not initially coming out of the arches, and Liandrin's reactions there. I also liked Liane admitting that she couldn't go through the arches the first time, and Sheriam's whole, well, this sucks, but let's move on, and have I mentioned that I am absolutely terrible at delivering bad news?

Poor Nynaeve, not able to bring that cute little kid through the arches. And poor me, for not being able to watch the next episode immediately. 

[Blue Plastic]

Boy, was not expecting the way Uno died. Whoa.

This show made the Seanchan look even more frightening than I imagined when I read the books! That was quite a feat.

At first I thought Nynaeve was supposed to be married to Perrin in the Arches #3 scenario. I forgot all about Lan or that Nynaeve was already supposed to have a love interest. It was kind of weird that Lan was supposed to be in the house, but Mat and Perrin were just hanging around outside with no other villagers. Wouldn't Egwene and other Two Rivers residents be there also? Not that it matters since it was just an illusion, but could they not get some of the other actors for that scene?

 

[AnimeMania]

I was confused why Mat could tilt the dresser down onto the ground without the drawers falling out or where he could put the bricks and the dust from his digging. It makes more sense if Liandrin knew that Mat was digging and hoped he would meet Min. She could overlook any signs of escape. I guess if Mat hadn't dug a tunnel, Liandrin would have had Min dig one.

[paigow]

Deja vu all over again

2 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I was confused why Mat could tilt the dresser down onto the ground without the drawers falling out or where he could put the bricks and the dust from his digging.

When Mat got re-casted, his last name should have been changed to Dufresne

[quarks]

11 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

At first I thought Nynaeve was supposed to be married to Perrin in the Arches #3 scenario. I forgot all about Lan or that Nynaeve was already supposed to have a love interest. It was kind of weird that Lan was supposed to be in the house, but Mat and Perrin were just hanging around outside with no other villagers. Wouldn't Egwene and other Two Rivers residents be there also? Not that it matters since it was just an illusion, but could they not get some of the other actors for that scene?

 

Ok, this totally cracks me up because you're not wrong about Perrin and the way Perrin shows up before Lan does in that scene, but I spent much of that scene going LAN LAN SHOW ME LAN and then when Lan did appear with the full flowing hair from the cover of some 90s romance novel I started to laugh. No wonder they had him decked out as a romance novel hero - they had to remind folks that Nynaeve was with him, not with Perrin.

To really answer your question, though, I suspect that thanks to Covid protocols they are trying to limit the number of actors in indoor locations unless absolutely needed for plot or setting reasons. It's really notable just how many scenes requiring more than four actors have been set outdoors: that conversation between the Aes Sedai about Nynaeve, for instance; almost all of the scenes with Perrin and the gang; whenever Moraine and Lan join Adeleas/Verin/Tomas; and how many of the indoor scenes have either involved people keeping their distance (the asylum stuff) or have been filmed in forced perspective hiding that the actors are more than six feet apart (Nynaeve's vision of heading back to the Two Rivers and finding everyone sick), with dialogue restricted to just two actors at at time in a shot.  The two glaring exceptions were the Darkfriends meeting around the table bit at the beginning, and the nobility scene in Cairhein. The first scene could have been partly filmed with dolls - in fact, given that everyone in that scene other than Ishamael, Padan Fain and the kid couldn't move, it might have been easier to film/more effective with dolls. So that leaves just one indoor crowd scene - and it looked like with that scene, they went to some lengths to keep open doors for ventilation.

With Nynaeve's third vision, they had five people in the scene already (although they did keep a distance between Lan/Nynaeve and the other three), plus incoming stunt folks. I think they decided to play it safe and not bring in any additional people. 

[DoctorAtomic]

The turning on of the Arches was really cool. I laughed when they just dumped a bucket of water on her. 

I liked that they did the whole scene without breaking. They totally faked me out too. 

Falme is 'Fahlm'?! I've been saying 'Fahl-may' for 25 years. 

I wouldn't have given Logain the whole bottle. Just one glass. Dole it out. 

Did anyone see that Xray also has notes on all the nations? 

[Danny Franks]

Nynaeve's visions in the Arches were interesting. I forgot that her parents were killed when she was small, but it makes sense that it's the basis of one of her greatest fears.

And of course, fear number two is an epidemic in Emond's Field that she can't heal. Because Nynaeve is the Wisdom and she looks after the people. Leaving them weighs on her all the time, and if she's left them for the White Tower, why isn't she trying her hardest to succeed there? Nynaeve is stubborn as hell but, deep down, she knows it's hurting her as much as anyone.

The bait and switch with her 'emerging' for the third time was pretty good. But I guess her third fear is turning her back on the One Power, and on Egwene, because she's just too stubborn to follow their rules. What would it cost her, and people she cares about?

The fact that she has to leave just when she thinks her loved ones need her most is brutal. I've always thought that was so cruel. And the coldness of the Aes Sedai who, to be fair to them, have likely seen this a hundred different times, with a hundred different women.

I think the romantic reunion with Lan was when I realised it wasn't real. But well played, I genuinely didn't know what was going to happen.

The Seanchan are just so extra, and I love it. Their aesthetic is so completely alien and weird. So unnerving. And they have American accents! The little blond damane was perhaps they creepiest thing in the episode.

Poor Uno. That was fucking awful.

What's not awful? Selene. She's stunning, vivacious and so intriguing. She and Rand clean up a treat, don't they? I particularly love the decorations on Rand's coat. 

Still absolutely loving Elayne and supportiveness of Egwene. She's great.

And really loving new Mat. He's a charming arsehole, which is exactly what I want Mat to be. I don't like Min being Liandrin's spy, but it seems like she's reluctant.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Danny Franks

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

But I guess her third fear is turning her back on the One Power, and on Egwene, because she's just too stubborn to follow their rules. What would it cost her, and people she cares about?

I don't think it was turning her back on the power; it's walking away from learning how to use it that could cost her loved ones. Which interestingly includes Mat.

The third arch bookends the first nicely. 

I mean, really, if she was in command of her channeling, three Trollocs are a flick of the wrist for her. Unfortunately for her, the only way to learn anything is to remain in the tower. It's hard because she's older. Almost like going back to school in your 30s. 

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I don't like Min being Liandrin's spy, but it seems like she's reluctant.

You know though, just get out of the cell and take your chances. Liandrin may think Mat is important to Mo's schemes, but he's kind of not, so Min can't really report on anything anyway. 

[staphdude]

Close to 12000 pages of source material and this is what they give us. Mat Cauthon is a shell of who he should be and Rand needs to start getting his storyline moving. 

[JonasArm]

Nynaeve's problem is not with the power but with the Aes Sedai. She told in season 1 the story of her mother who was turned away upon her arrival at the tower simply because of her ragged clothes and her accent. Nynaeve sees the Aes Sedai as elistist and potentially people that refused to teach her mother the power that could have saved their familly... hence the 3rd vision where Nynaeve herself doesn't have such skill but could have learned while her mother wasn't given the choice.

[Ottis]

Those tests were silly. You can’t change what has already happened, you can always go home even if you had to leave and whatever the last thing was. Then having a fit about turning your back on your friends? Says who? Lots of  drama for no reason. If Aes Sedei are corrupt, be better. Not a hard choice.

BTW, “the way back” looks like it would be easy to miss in the heat of the moment if it always appears quietly behind you and only comes once.

 

[paigow]

55 minutes ago, Ottis said:

BTW, “the way back” looks like it would be easy to miss in the heat of the moment if it always appears quietly behind you and only comes once.

Worst.Holodeck.Ever

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:40 PM, Ottis said:

Those tests were silly. You can’t change what has already happened, you can always go home even if you had to leave and whatever the last thing was. Then having a fit about turning your back on your friends? Says who? Lots of  drama for no reason. If Aes Sedei are corrupt, be better. Not a hard choice.

BTW, “the way back” looks like it would be easy to miss in the heat of the moment if it always appears quietly behind you and only comes once.

 

Mileage will vary, but I thought the tests were effective in highlighting N's fears as to the past, present and possible future and further establishing her character.

Can she get over what was presumably the worst thing to happen to her, a Trolloc attack that killed her parents? Or would she get fixated on trying to save them?

Can she live with the notion that hundreds in her home village might be dying right now because the Aes Sedai are deaf to their pleas when she acting alone could cure the disease that is facing them?

Wouldn't she be better off in a future reunited with her loved ones back in her small town?

Now while in the last arch, she presumably experienced the equivalent of 8-10 years, i.e. the time it took to travel back to Two Rivers, set up a home with Lan and have their little kiddo (who seemed to me to be at least 8). That is a lot of experience to just shake off the illusion of.

And who says you can't change what has already happened in a world where magic and possible time travel exist? Even if you objectively can't, who is to say that she will not get seduced by the notion that you can?

Even once the Aes Sedai accept her, it is not likely that they will send up healers to address the plauge that is happening in her hometown. 

Saying "be better" is easy, but actually doing that is hard. You can't really become better without more training from the Aes Sedai, and you almost certainly can't get more training from the Aes Sedai without on some level obeying their rules. So how far are you willing to go to be part of the sisterhood? Can you learn enough and break away? Is it smart/safe to do that when there are darkfriends, Fades, the knights of misogyny and other dangers out there?

One question I had was in the third scenario, it seemed like an arch formed shortly after N's leaving the White Tower. Did I just make that up? So is it a mistake that the way back only opens up once?

[Ottis]

18 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Mileage will vary, but I thought the tests were effective in highlighting N's fears as to the past, present and possible future and further establishing her character.

Oh, I agree with you as to the purpose of the tests. I just thought they weren't effective, and as you say, YMMV. She knew going in that everything she saw was a test - it was not real. Therefore, the right choice each time should have been clear if she is as smart as we have been led to believe.

For instance, her parents were dead, and she knew that. The past already happened. Therefore nothing she did would make a difference in reality. I guess they could be testing if she was a nitwit, choosing to fight a fake battle that would have made no difference for her parents, but given all we are supposed to believe about her and her skills, that should not have been much of a challenge for her.

20 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Can she live with the notion that hundreds in her home village might be dying right now because the Aes Sedai are deaf to their pleas when she acting alone could cure the disease that is facing them?

Sure. She, an apprentice, isn't responsible for what the Aes Sedai do. And if you think about it, if she really wanted to go heal all those people she could come out of the test and travel back to her village. Assuming she could again touch the One Power after failing the tests.

25 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Wouldn't she be better off in a future reunited with her loved ones back in her small town?

She fell for this one, but she did so because the test made it look like she came out of the test, and then made this choice. For all she knew, she was back in reality. THAT test was harder, for sure. And what she learned was, taking the path to a peaceful village and family would eventually lead to tragedy because the bad guys were never stopped. So that made her actual choice easier. If anything, that test benefited her.

28 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

And who says you can't change what has already happened in a world where magic and possible time travel exist? Even if you objectively can't, who is to say that she will not get seduced by the notion that you can?

Answer to the first part: Internal story logic. If people could change the past on Wheel of Time, we would have seen evidence by now. I doubt they would save that ability for an apprentice test. That would be part of the show's accepted parameters, and part of what she recognized as reality.

Answer to the second part: See comments above to each of the three tests.

Taken as a whole, that is why I thought the tests were silly. She knew enough to realize they were tests, that nothing she did would change the real world. Even the test where she was fooled taught her that choice was a poor one.

I kept waiting for something more interesting or difficult, but that was it.

34 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

One question I had was in the third scenario, it seemed like an arch formed shortly after N's leaving the White Tower. Did I just make that up? So is it a mistake that the way back only opens up once?

I think you are right, it did come back again. Which I assume means she is special somehow, since it never came again for anyone else. Also, though, how convenient.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Even once the Aes Sedai accept her, it is not likely that they will send up healers to address the plauge that is happening in her hometown.

Don't forget; that is in the Arches. The plague is only a possible reality. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Ottis said:

Oh, I agree with you as to the purpose of the tests. I just thought they weren't effective, and as you say, YMMV. She knew going in that everything she saw was a test - it was not real. Therefore, the right choice each time should have been clear if she is as smart as we have been led to believe.

For instance, her parents were dead, and she knew that. The past already happened. Therefore nothing she did would make a difference in reality. I guess they could be testing if she was a nitwit, choosing to fight a fake battle that would have made no difference for her parents, but given all we are supposed to believe about her and her skills, that should not have been much of a challenge for her.

Sure. She, an apprentice, isn't responsible for what the Aes Sedai do. And if you think about it, if she really wanted to go heal all those people she could come out of the test and travel back to her village. Assuming she could again touch the One Power after failing the tests.

She fell for this one, but she did so because the test made it look like she came out of the test, and then made this choice. For all she knew, she was back in reality. THAT test was harder, for sure. And what she learned was, taking the path to a peaceful village and family would eventually lead to tragedy because the bad guys were never stopped. So that made her actual choice easier. If anything, that test benefited her.

Answer to the first part: Internal story logic. If people could change the past on Wheel of Time, we would have seen evidence by now. I doubt they would save that ability for an apprentice test. That would be part of the show's accepted parameters, and part of what she recognized as reality.

Answer to the second part: See comments above to each of the three tests.

Taken as a whole, that is why I thought the tests were silly. She knew enough to realize they were tests, that nothing she did would change the real world. Even the test where she was fooled taught her that choice was a poor one.

I kept waiting for something more interesting or difficult, but that was it.

I think you are right, it did come back again. Which I assume means she is special somehow, since it never came again for anyone else. Also, though, how convenient.

 

It is easy from our genre-savvy perspective as viewers to know that these situations aren't real. It's not clear how real or not real the situations feel to N. 

It is also not entirely clear what the Arches actually are or how they work. Maybe they do transport people to other places in space-time. Maybe it's just all in the initiate's mind. i have no familiarity with the books so maybe there are rules that further establish what happens with the arches and what doesn't. But it seems to me that the people who don't come back means that they are somewhere/somewhen. And those that do come back with physical injuries suggest that SOMETHING real or real-adjacent happens there. 

We don't know what would have happened if she had tried to change her parent's death. Maybe she would have just stayed in a parallel universe where they hadn't been killed by Trollocs. Maybe a door would have appeared to her later.

We don't know anything about what potential rules of time travel apply here, or if any do, or if this indeed involves time travel. Under one theory of time travel, it is fruitless to try to change the past because whatever your attempts might be just will be incorporated into the "way it was supposed to happen". In another, you can create a new reality for your present. (see Back to the Future). Then there's the Infinity War/Endgame model, where the past is kind of locked, but kind of not. 

What I got from the show was that the Aes Sedai have no control over what goes on in the test of individual candidates. They didn't "tell" the arches to conjure these scenarios. The arches are apparently semi-sentient and could pick up on what her fears were and how to test them.

N probably cannot heal a village by herself at this point, since she has only been able to access the One Power when she's feeling heightened emotions. Even if she for sure could, there is still the matter of getting back home solo. Not a move I'd recommend.

We are barely over a season into a lengthy journey. I'm pretty sure that there are more things in this universe than are dreamed of in either of our philosophies. It's illogical to the extreme to say "Because we haven't seen something happen in 13 episodes it absolutely can't happen." Particularly when the foundation of this universe is magic. Almost by definition, magic has no really defined limits, and where at least some of the rules we have been told are likely to be wrong.

We have been told several times now that men cannot access the One Power without going mad. I'd bet a lot of quatloos that Rand eventually either proves an exception to this rule or figures out why previous men had gone mad and avoids this. 

[quarks]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

 

One question I had was in the third scenario, it seemed like an arch formed shortly after N's leaving the White Tower. Did I just make that up? So is it a mistake that the way back only opens up once?

 

Yes. In the third test, the arch opened up shortly after Nynaeve left the White Tower. She either didn't see the arch, or chose to ignore it, and stay with Lan.

That's why everyone except Egwene in the White Tower assumed she was dead - they knew the way back comes but once, and they knew that for whatever reason, she hadn't taken it.

Slight book spoilers for just this scene:

Spoiler

In the books, the Accepted test happens with several more Aes Sedai present (I'm assuming Covid protocols changed things) and everyone says, "The way back will come but once. Be steadfast." When the way back comes, the Accepted can actually hear those words - "The way back will come but once. Be steadfast," and then choose whether or not to go through the arches. In a normal test.

Nynaeve's test isn't normal - in her third scenario (which plays out a bit differently in the books) she initially doesn't go through the arch, and, as she hesitates, it vanishes. Later, she channels to get the arch to reopen again and comes out cursing all Aes Sedai.

 

[Ottis]

12 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

What I got from the show was that the Aes Sedai have no control over what goes on in the test of individual candidates. They didn't "tell" the arches to conjure these scenarios. The arches are apparently semi-sentient and could pick up on what her fears were and how to test them.

 

12 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We don't know anything about what potential rules of time travel apply here, or if any do, or if this indeed involves time travel. Under one theory of time travel, it is fruitless to try to change the past because whatever your attempts might be just will be incorporated into the "way it was supposed to happen". In another, you can create a new reality for your present. (see Back to the Future). Then there's the Infinity War/Endgame model, where the past is kind of locked, but kind of not. 

I guess we will agree to disagree. As I noted, if this were true, if the arches had the power to change reality, I think the show would tell us that through the actions/words of the characters. Instead, the characters go out of their way to note that what happens *within* the arches is a mystery, but that whatever it is. it is not important *outside* the arches. They show zero concern about the test changing reality.

It's *possible* that whatever happens in the test echoes in time and reality so that the people we are watching now don't realize that something that happened in the test changed their reality. But again, I think the show would let us know that. It does the opposite.

Really, the fact the show calls the arches a "test," and the very definition "test" means it is a set of conditions for the sole reason of seeing what happens within that limited environment, implies its impact is limited. What I infer from all of those hints is that people who undergo "the test" know it is a test when they are in it, and know that what they do there is limited to the test environment and only impacts their consciousness and/or body.

BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if people who stay in the arches and live out their lives end up being ejected at some point as comatose or dead bodies in the real world. Though N didn't do that. Maybe she wasn't in very long in real time.

In any case, if the show later states that what happens in the test does in fact affect their real world, I'll have to rethink my conclusion.

12 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We are barely over a season into a lengthy journey. I'm pretty sure that there are more things in this universe than are dreamed of in either of our philosophies. It's illogical to the extreme to say "Because we haven't seen something happen in 13 episodes it absolutely can't happen."

In my experience, TV shows don't wait until the middle of the second season to reveal amazing new abilities that could upend everything we know so far. It's possible, and if it happens it is almost always a red herring. But it's bad storytelling if true. Sort of like the Marvel multiverse, which is killing the franchise because now nothing that we see happen matters. It can all be redone, and reset, thanks to the multiverse. It crushes the investment of viewers.

[tennisgurl]

Wow, the Seanchan certainly are a whole lot aren't they? They cant just show up to conquer and kill villages left and right, they have to make a whole Vegas show about it. Really sad to see Uno go, especially in such a bloody way, this whole grim story needs all of the comic relief it can get. 

I guessed pretty quickly that Nynaeve's first "escape" from the arches was still part of the test, especially when she ran into Lan, but I like how it all played out with her various fears about her past, present, and future. Its nothing exactly anything we didn't already know about her, but I really want to know how she's going to feel about losing her imaginary daughter.

Rand certainly does look nice in red, even without his hair. The guy who plays Logain is awesome, I'm really glad that they brought him back. I'm assuming that Rand will be able to handle having powers and could maybe even fix whatever makes men unable to channel and keep their sanity, who knows. 

Elayne is an awesome friend, Egwene was lucky to have her in the middle of this mess, especially after Lady Sensitivity broke the news to her about Nynaeve's supposed death. "Hi, hate to tell you this, but your best friend just died in our initiation. Sucks, but what can you do, later." 

[Danny Franks]

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Elayne is an awesome friend, Egwene was lucky to have her in the middle of this mess, especially after Lady Sensitivity broke the news to her about Nynaeve's supposed death. "Hi, hate to tell you this, but your best friend just died in our initiation. Sucks, but what can you do, later." 

Sheriam actually made me think of Sister Michael, from Derry Girls - "if anyone is feeling anxious or worried... please, please do not come crying to me."

She gives off the air of someone who has dealt with teenage girls for decades and is just done with their shit. And someone who has delivered this bad news too many times to share any empathy over it.

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

Really, the fact the show calls the arches a "test," and the very definition "test" means it is a set of conditions for the sole reason of seeing what happens within that limited environment, implies its impact is limited. What I infer from all of those hints is that people who undergo "the test" know it is a test when they are in it, and know that what they do there is limited to the test environment and only impacts their consciousness and/or body.

 

But those impacts have the potential to kill the people taking the test, and may well leave other, lingering effects. We know that at least some people can't bring themselves to take it - Liane directly tells us that she couldn't get herself to go through even the first arch the first time, and clearly that failure is still bothering her years later. So the impacts seem at least potentially very significant.

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

 

In my experience, TV shows don't wait until the middle of the second season to reveal amazing new abilities that could upend everything we know so far. It's possible, and if it happens it is almost always a red herring. But it's bad storytelling if true. Sort of like the Marvel multiverse, which is killing the franchise because now nothing that we see happen matters. It can all be redone, and reset, thanks to the multiverse. It crushes the investment of viewers.

Showing my age here, but Sesame Street absolutely did this with Big Bird and Snuffleupagus!  Fourteen years into the show!!!! IT UPENDED MY ENTIRE CHILDHOOD.

Sesame Street aside, I think the main problem with this comparison is that most genre shows have no idea how many seasons they will get, or in the case of the Marvel multiverse, what might or might not be happening with the connected movies. In contrast, Wheel of Time knows that Amazon is planning on eight seasons, at least as of now.  A show that may only last one or two seasons needs to reveal amazing new abilities pretty early on, as you note (see, Amazon's The Power), but one that is going to last for eight seasons probably needs to hang on to some major plot twists/reveals for later seasons.

And I can think of a couple of exceptions to your rule - The Expanse revealed an amazing new ability/thing at the end of season three, amazing enough to get picked up by Amazon for another three seasons. Fringe typically ended every season with some sort of major reveal/ability/universe change. Buffy did a huge ability changing thing in its season seven finale.

I have no idea if Wheel of Time will do any of this - I've read the books, but I don't think it's a huge book spoiler to say that the show has made a number of fairly significant changes to the books, so, it's hard to impossible for me to predict what they will do next. I think it's quite possible that the show won't introduce any huge significant game changers later on. But it's also possible that the show will do that in later seasons. 

 

[Ottis]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

But those impacts have the potential to kill the people taking the test, and may well leave other, lingering effects. We know that at least some people can't bring themselves to take it - Liane directly tells us that she couldn't get herself to go through even the first arch the first time, and clearly that failure is still bothering her years later. So the impacts seem at least potentially very significant.

Showing my age here, but Sesame Street absolutely did this with Big Bird and Snuffleupagus!  Fourteen years into the show!!!! IT UPENDED MY ENTIRE CHILDHOOD.

Sesame Street aside, I think the main problem with this comparison is that most genre shows have no idea how many seasons they will get, or in the case of the Marvel multiverse, what might or might not be happening with the connected movies. In contrast, Wheel of Time knows that Amazon is planning on eight seasons, at least as of now.  A show that may only last one or two seasons needs to reveal amazing new abilities pretty early on, as you note (see, Amazon's The Power), but one that is going to last for eight seasons probably needs to hang on to some major plot twists/reveals for later seasons.

And I can think of a couple of exceptions to your rule - The Expanse revealed an amazing new ability/thing at the end of season three, amazing enough to get picked up by Amazon for another three seasons. Fringe typically ended every season with some sort of major reveal/ability/universe change. Buffy did a huge ability changing thing in its season seven finale.

I have no idea if Wheel of Time will do any of this - I've read the books, but I don't think it's a huge book spoiler to say that the show has made a number of fairly significant changes to the books, so, it's hard to impossible for me to predict what they will do next. I think it's quite possible that the show won't introduce any huge significant game changers later on. But it's also possible that the show will do that in later seasons. 

 

The next episode picks up this issue, briefly, and I’ll comment there when I get a chance. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, Ottis said:

 

I guess we will agree to disagree. As I noted, if this were true, if the arches had the power to change reality, I think the show would tell us that through the actions/words of the characters. Instead, the characters go out of their way to note that what happens *within* the arches is a mystery, but that whatever it is. it is not important *outside* the arches. They show zero concern about the test changing reality.

It's *possible* that whatever happens in the test echoes in time and reality so that the people we are watching now don't realize that something that happened in the test changed their reality. But again, I think the show would let us know that. It does the opposite.

Really, the fact the show calls the arches a "test," and the very definition "test" means it is a set of conditions for the sole reason of seeing what happens within that limited environment, implies its impact is limited. What I infer from all of those hints is that people who undergo "the test" know it is a test when they are in it, and know that what they do there is limited to the test environment and only impacts their consciousness and/or body.

BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if people who stay in the arches and live out their lives end up being ejected at some point as comatose or dead bodies in the real world. Though N didn't do that. Maybe she wasn't in very long in real time.

In any case, if the show later states that what happens in the test does in fact affect their real world, I'll have to rethink my conclusion.

In my experience, TV shows don't wait until the middle of the second season to reveal amazing new abilities that could upend everything we know so far. It's possible, and if it happens it is almost always a red herring. But it's bad storytelling if true. Sort of like the Marvel multiverse, which is killing the franchise because now nothing that we see happen matters. It can all be redone, and reset, thanks to the multiverse. It crushes the investment of viewers.

You are making a lot of assumptions based on the creators' POV and what you assume creators would/should do. For instance in your experience, "TV shows don't wait until the middle of the second season to reveal amazing new abilities that could upend everything we know so far."

I'm sure that if you listed sci-fi fantasy series that lasted beyond 5 seasons that you watched, I could probably come up with a new development that had not been expressly stated as a possibility or hinted at in its first season or two. It seems inevitable that shows brings in some things that amps the stakes. 

I'd also submit the notion of being able to travel through time and to affect the past or future is not as big a departure from what the show has displayed. Implicit in a story with prophecy is how knowledge of past and future events is gained and if the future events can be averted. Implicit in the concept of "the Wheel" as I understand it -- which may not be very well, admittedly -- is that it is an analogy for how people play similar roles as previous incarnations of themselves. A wheel can move in more than one direction, can change course, etc. etc. 

But even if it's the case that most shows don't introduce powerful new elements and the ability to change the past is one such element, there's no reason that this show isn't an exception to the rule.

And more importantly, the characters within the universe decidedly don't know all the rules on how the Arches work. They have some broad notions, but they are plainly mistaken as to the "no channeling while in the arch" supposed rule and "the way back opens but once."

The show doesn't establish whether the arches are more analogous to a portal in time/space/dimension like (for instance) The Guardian of Forever in Star Trek, to a Matrix-like sim of reality, to the ghostly visions of A Christmas Carol or what.  

The show establishes that at least for N there is some level of all this feeling real and confusion along that axis. Yes, if it were just a question of "Go through the arch and hang out until you get a doorway leading back" it'd be a relatively simple thing to "pass" because you just could twiddle your thumbs until the doorway to return appears. But at least in N's case, and particularly in the third scenario, the line between real and unreal became very blurry. She lived a minimum of 10 years while let's say a maximum of two to three nights passed in the real world. 

It doesn't necessarily follow that because a test is meant to show what will happen during a limited set of circumstances therefore there is a limited amount of impact that a test could have. To give an analogy, a driver's test is meant to only show whether someone has mastered the rules of the road. That doesn't mean that it is impossible for someone to mow down 10 civilians when they get behind the wheel. It's far more complicated in the realm of this episode, where it seems no one of the Aes Sedai is actively setting up the parameters of the test or running it or even knows exactly how it works, and when there's magic involved.

[shrewd.buddha]

On 9/3/2023 at 4:06 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I liked that they did the whole scene without breaking.

I was impressed that the showrunners understood that her alternate reality sequence needed to be told without cuts to other storylines.

This seemed like the third time that WoT has used the old "your perfect fantasy life is a trick/trap" trope.
I know it was used on Rand last season.
There seems to be a fair amount of fake-out deaths and dream stuff, too.

One of my issues with this show is the constant story switching. With five main characters, plus Moraine,  that's a lot of hopping around.. not good for a show that is released on a weekly basis. 
A weekly story should have some type of weekly decisive developments -- in my opinion. 

I do wonder if the showrunners and Amazon agreed on the release schedule. It really does affect how the story comes across - and how it should be told.  I can't imagine a network procedural show surviving if it were fragmented like this one.

In season one, I felt as if I understood the stakes and the goals. I don’t have a sense of either in this season. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by shrewd.buddha

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 9/8/2023 at 4:44 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

You are making a lot of assumptions based on the creators' POV and what you assume creators would/should do. For instance in your experience, "TV shows don't wait until the middle of the second season to reveal amazing new abilities that could upend everything we know so far."

I'm sure that if you listed sci-fi fantasy series that lasted beyond 5 seasons that you watched, I could probably come up with a new development that had not been expressly stated as a possibility or hinted at in its first season or two. It seems inevitable that shows brings in some things that amps the stakes.

Plus, it's based on a book series, and book series absolutely do introduce game-changing new powers and revelations in middle and late-stage books.

I'd like to add that I always enjoy how well-reasoned your posts are.

[chaifan]

I have to assume Liandrin released Mat and Min so Mat could somehow go save Nynaeve from the Arch.  But now that N has released herself (so much for only one chance of returning), what are they going to do?  Or was there another reason Liandrin released them? 

And, how would Liandrin have known that she was going to need Min for that purpose so far in advance, as to set her up in the cell next to Mat, Mat breaking a hole in the wall, etc.  It all seems a bit too convenient.

 

[akiss]

Elaine is an amazing new character and I  like her very much. I read the previous discussions here and I  don't agree that Nyneave's ordeal was not convincing. I think it was very clear that it all felt very real to the person who got through the arches.

[Atlanta]

Elayne is very Elayne, but 

Spoiler

in the books, Ny immediately became Accepted because she was too powerful. She would have never left Egwene. And I don't remember Min being a prisoner of the Tower. Mat only stayed until he was healed.

Edited June 24 by Atlanta