S03.E06: Ghost Light

[paigow]

Cinda gives Mabel credibility as a podcaster. Perhaps extend beyond true crime into art, fashion, 

[chaifan]

I like that the show has openly acknowledged the trio just hasn't been much of a trio this season.  This is oddly working for me.  Their separation is intentional, it's been acknowledged by the characters, we're seeing it's creating problems as they aren't sharing information with each other, so they're setting up (hopefully) for an epiphany by all three that they need each other. 

I definitely think KT's locked office is a clue, but I just have no idea what it means. 

I loved the focus on Howard in this episode. 

I'm wondering if Charles intentionally hangs around crazy women because it makes him look rather sane in comparison.  It's like Jan and Joy absorbed some of Charles' craziness, and when they aren't around it explodes through him. 

I loved the scene with Oliver and the Phantom's dorm room guy. Except for the rat.  I could have done without the rat.

 

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

I definitely think KT's locked office is a clue, but I just have no idea what it means. 

I'm guessing that someone had gone into her office and locked the door for privacy and nefarious reasons. What that person was doing in there... *shrug*

[Suzn]

I love the little moments.  In this episode, Howard using his stage voice started with a little ballet move, pointing his toe. Adorable!

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 9/5/2023 at 3:14 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Surprisingly enjoyed the scenes with Howard and the stagehand.

Who seemed relatively unperturbed that 2 sandbags fell with no obvious explanation.

On 9/5/2023 at 1:58 PM, peeayebee said:

The moment he put the fish in the tank, I knew it would be flushed, but of course I didn't know who would do it. So when he said he'd had a lot of coffee, it was clear he would flush it, and I was bored. The whole thing with him bring President McKinley was dumb, imo. 

Agreed.

On 9/5/2023 at 1:58 PM, peeayebee said:

Funny when Jerry said to Oliver, "Your manservant spotted me this morning."

Also agree.

 

[secnarf]

2 hours ago, Suzn said:

I love the little moments.  In this episode, Howard using his stage voice started with a little ballet move, pointing his toe. Adorable!

It reminded me of how he said "But that can't be! One of us? Say it's not true" during the killer reveal party at the end of last season. A nice callback, that is somewhat tempered by contradicting what Howard said in that episode about his stage career - then, he made it sound like his mother was supportive, and he had auditioned for Joseph and the Amazing Technicolour Dreamcoat, presumably after high school.

[Crs97]

This season isn’t holding my attention the way the others have.  It’s my first one not to binge so hard to say if that is my problem or if the writing isn’t as sharp.  I pretty much enjoy the episode as I watch it, but afterwards I’m not left satisfied.

[Milburn Stone]

I really wish this same creative team (in front of and behind the camera) would do a show without the stupid murder-mystery premise, which they're unable to make work.

[Ilovepie]

On 9/6/2023 at 12:34 PM, Night Cheese said:

This season is so disjointed to me that I forget that the series is a murder-mystery show. I watch each episode of kooky, eccentric people doing kooky eccentric things. Then I come here to read everyone's comments and am taken aback for a second when everyone is speculating on who could be a killer or a red herring. I consistently forget that someone died and that's the whole premise of the show. 

Has it been explained why they aren't doing the podcast? Even if Oliver is avoiding it at all costs because he's afraid of his show going under, can't the others work on it? They're clearly still doing their amateur investigating, so why not record while you're doing it?

Yeah this almost seems like a different show now. I miss them sleuthing together which we did get a little this episode, but it feels like the mystery has become second or third after the play and their love lives, and the apartment building is not really in this at all as the theater seems more important to the investigation.

Charles taking the fish to the theater was completely stupid. I think Mabel taking Cinda's offer is the smartest thing she could do - although totally mean spirited, Oliver wasn't wrong about Mabel.

[shapeshifter]

2 minutes ago, Ilovepie said:

Charles taking the fish to the theater was completely stupid.

Last week it was Charles In The (imaginary) White Room.
This week it was Charles With The Fish In The Theater.

It's like Charles' story arcs are a game of Clue without the murders.
— which are kind of boring to those of us who are not amused.

As of this episode, to me, the most interesting thing is the eyes of Jesse Williams/Tobert
— with Andrea Martin/Joy at least giving us a hint of The Murder Mystery That Could Have Been
— sorry Merryl/Loretta. 

[shapeshifter]

So,
If the killer turns out to be Mabel's new boyfriend, Tobert, would that be too similar to Season 1's killer being Charles' new girlfriend, Jan?

[cardigirl]

Many of us suspected Mabel's love interest last season, as she was secretive and underhanded and betrayed Mabel's trust. 

I'm just going to say that last season, a lot of the pieces didn't seem to lead the viewer anywhere. First season was the same, in that I didn't really know who the murderer was (lots of people claimed they did) and once the show made it clear that she was the murderer, we didn't know the WHY until the last episode. Same with season 2, and I could have never guessed in a million years the motive for killing Bunny. 

This show gives us so many misdirects, that we are all running around in circles. 

What do we actually know?  There are few facts given us.

1. Loretta and Ben had an altercation. Fact. But was she the aggressor or was Ben? We've heard it both ways (In between the lines there's a lot of obscurity ... 🍍).

2. A Ben collapsed on stage with blood (looked like blood) trickling out of his mouth.

3. A Ben returned triumphant to Oliver's opening night party, where he proceeded to fake apologize to everyone BUT Loretta, inferring that she was a snake (a treacherous person, especially one who feigns friendship—a concealed danger).

4. A lifeless Ben falls through the elevator shaft.  We don't if they were all the SAME Ben, or twins or triplets but nothing concrete has been said in the show to support that. 

5. Charles punched Ben. He also told him to "stay away from her" and "I know what you did." We don't know what Charles is referring to specifically, was it the altercation on the lighthouse with Loretta, or something else?

6. Ben was talking to someone in his dressing room that night. That's the fact, it's on the video we saw. But we don't yet know who or what, we can guess that maybe he was talking to cookies, his biggest temptation. 

7. Tobert knew about the video. Whether or not his story about Ben taking the camera and running off with it is true, we don't know. But Tobert knew that the video was in Ben's apartment. How did he know the police hadn't confiscated it yet?

8. Harold says that KT's office door was locked opening night. KT says she never locks that door. So something happened that we won't find out about until the reveal.

9. Fact, Dickie is now repping Loretta. Loretta called him sweet.

10. Someone wrote F*cking Pig on Ben's mirror with Joy's lipstick. 

11. Handwriting will be key? like it was in series 1? 

And will our unanswered questions from season 1 ever get answered? (Who left note for Jan? Who poisoned Winnie? Who was the big engagement ring for that went to Bunnie's instead of Tim's?) 

That's it, feel free to add facts to the list.

[shapeshifter]

Should we assume any podcasts pertaining to Ben’s murder have been released by Mabel, Oliver, and Charles?

Have we even seen any recordings being made?

Edited September 9, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Quilt Fairy]

Non-theater nerd here:  Is it common to be rehearsing 1/2 hour before the curtain rises on opening night?  For a Broadway show? 

[Zaffy]

(since this has become a trend recently)
To all the writers and showrunners in US TV:

After the strikes end (hopefully in your favor) please, STOP SEPARATING your successful ensables.

I honestly do not get it and I do not see it contributing to the series.
So Oliver has no issue covering for a potential murder..because, because whatever.
I still enjoy the actors, but if it wasn't for them I would had stopped watching this season.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Zaffy

[lizzbert]

Quote

Charles punched Ben. He also told him to "stay away from her" and "I know what you did." We don't know what Charles is referring to specifically, was it the altercation on the lighthouse with Loretta, or something else?

Charles must be referring to Mabel, she’s the only “she” he feels strongly enough about to punch someone else. This is also why he kept it a secret from the gang—he knows Mabel idolized Ben, and whatever Charles knows would devastate her.

Edited September 8, 2023 by lizzbert

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, lizzbert said:

Charles must be referring to Mabel, she’s the only “she” he feels strongly enough about to punch someone else. This is also why he kept it a secret from the gang—he knows Mabel idolized Ben, and whatever Charles knows would devastate her.

He also feels strongly about Joy. 

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, Affogato said:

He also feels strongly about Joy. 

Does he? 
(somewhat rhetorical question)
 

[lizzbert]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Does he? 
(somewhat rhetorical question)
 

Yeah, that’s how I feel. Joy really drove that relationship, I feel like he was just going along with what he was “supposed” to want so he wouldn’t be alone.

[Affogato]

35 minutes ago, lizzbert said:

Yeah, that’s how I feel. Joy really drove that relationship, I feel like he was just going along with what he was “supposed” to want so he wouldn’t be alone.

And if that is true, nonetheless, he ob uously has strong feelings. We see this with the whole fish angst a d a lot of other things. Whether he is truly in love with her is irrelevant. I suspect he is, though, but will blow it. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

And if that is true, nonetheless, he ob uously has strong feelings. We see this with the whole fish angst a d a lot of other things. Whether he is truly in love with her is irrelevant. I suspect he is, though, but will blow it. 

I see both Charles and Joy in love with the idea of being in love (rather than actually in love with each other), especially at a stage of life when this might be their last hope for a Happily Ever After — but also when they may each be set in their own ways and prefer not to adapt to another person's lifestyle idiosyncrasies — of which both Charles and Joy have *a lot.*  
But I doubt the show will overtly unpack that idea, even if it was a driving motive by the writers for the characters' relationship.

Mabel and Tobert seem to have a strong enough physical attraction, but I don't see any soulmate connection there — even if there is a bit of mind melding over the murder mystery that is lacking from Charles' or Oliver's current relationships.

Oliver does seem more smitten than any of the other Scooby Gang halves of the 3 romantic pairs.

I suppose if Loretta is the (perhaps accidental) killer, Oliver and Charles can later bond about having both been romantically entangled with killers.

[kay1864]

On 9/7/2023 at 8:57 PM, secnarf said:

he had auditioned for Joseph and the Amazing Technicolour Dreamcoat

(suspiciously) Are there any Canadians here today?

Edited September 11, 2023 by kay1864

[Blakeston]

Interesting that there was a dig at Hugh Jackman in an episode where Jonathan was being investigated.

It's probably just a coincidence. But Jason Veasey, who plays Jonathan, is open about having a (comical, I assume) grudge against Jackman.

I saw the musical A Strange Loop on Broadway last year, in the midst of the Red Bucket Fall Fundraising Campaign (in which various Broadway shows compete to see who can collect the most donations to Equity Fights Aids in red buckets.) Jason addressed the audience directly at the curtain call, and said something like this:

"Please give all you can, because I really, really want to win this year. There's a certain actor who only does a Broadway show once every seven years or so, and whatever show he's in always wins, and it really pisses me off. I'm not going to say who this celebrity is, but it's Hugh fucking Jackman."

He went on for a bit after this about how irritated he is with Jackman, and how everyone falls all over him.

[paramitch]

In a continuing theme for me this season, I didn't much like this one. This episode was a mess, and all over the place, like this season. It has people doing things for stupid "because the writers said so" reasons.

Yes, there are always some witty and genuinely whimsical moments, and I love those. Loved Howard and the stage manager allowing themselves that moment to bond over their true love of the theatre (that entire scene was wonderful). I like the little love letters to theatre here and there -- the entire season's love of the theatre is very palpable and sweet. But it also feels so forced to me.

And I hated everything with Charles and President McKinley. It was interminable, obvious, unfunny, and I just sat there, waiting for him to inevitably flush the fish. Which he did.

And what is it with this show and pets? Did nobody on the writing/acting team ever actually own a pet? Like, I don't buy that Charles didn't have a single thing in his aquarium for President McKinley to begin with. (Seriously? Not even a fake little plant? No treasure chest?) And did he not realize you have to treat the water they live in? I mean, WTF? It's right up there with Howard putting his dead cat in his freezer (not even in a bag) in season 1.

This show constantly feels written by aliens who don't quite remember how human beings function day to day. It's weird.

My biggest issue is that the mystery is so overcomplicated this season, so stuffed with suspects and motives and cast members that Ben disappears. Every season before this, we never lost sight of the murder victim. There was real pathos intermittently among our team trio as well as in our glimpses of the suspects and (especially) the victim.

But here we are, over halfway through the season, and Ben is still just a joke. We got a few brief genuine moments of emotion from Mabel about what his character meant to her early on, but very little since, and nothing that tells us who he was as a person.

I really wish at this point that they hadn't cast Paul Rudd. Because of the stunt casting aspect, he's visibly not able to take much part, so his character so far just remains a silly piece of cardboard for everyone to obsess about when they aren't making messes of their own lives. Even the major side characters this season just feel vain and self-obsessed. Compare Loretta or Tobert to the genuine emotional complexity of Tim Kono, Teddy Dimas, Bunny, Theo, Detective Donna, Zoe, Alice, etc.

I continue to miss the Arconia as a character. I dislike the broken trio. I don't think Mabel has any chemistry with Tobert at all. I do not buy Oliver's great love for Loretta for a second. I wish Charles was better-written this season -- I prefer the omelets to the goldfish in terms of character enrichment. 

The ending moment with the little curtains closing in the diorama theatre was wonderful. Little moments like that, I love.

On 9/5/2023 at 7:20 AM, Affogato said:

I had some anxiety waiting for the President to be flushed, and I felt that scene went on too long. The loneliness inherent in Charles bringing his fish on an investigation he is making with his friends is...heartbreaking. Also dumb. The burittosode offer must have hurt, too.

Best guess is he 'wolverines' out, but it is also possible that he gets really maudlin and sings cheesy ballads.

I agree on the goldfish. 

I love your guess at what happens if you feed Jackman after midnight!

On 9/5/2023 at 7:44 AM, TakomaSnark said:

I'm going to be supremely disappointed if we don't get a 'Hugh Jackman-being-fed-after-midnight' cameo by the end of this season.

I don't know, I'm divided. I guess I want it but on the other hand, I feel like this show is cameoing us to pieces at the expense of our core characters.

On 9/5/2023 at 10:58 AM, peeayebee said:

The moment he put the fish in the tank, I knew it would be flushed, but of course I didn't know who would do it. So when he said he'd had a lot of coffee, it was clear he would flush it, and I was bored. The whole thing with him bring President McKinley was dumb, imo. 

This!

On 9/5/2023 at 4:28 PM, ofmd said:

Wow... I pretty much hated the whole episode. It wasn't funny. I guess it tried to be deep but it wasn't (unlike, say, the Bunny episode last season). And I find neither Tobert nor the "ghost" director remotely interesting.

The sort-of bonding between Howard and KT was almost enjoyable.

This was how I felt too, although I did like Howard and KT and their little ceremony to placate the ghost.

On 9/5/2023 at 6:30 PM, Andre LaPlume said:

Oliver’s rant about Mabel not having a real job was just cruel.    

I feel like Oliver has been much crueler and more narcissistic this season, and it really bothers me.

From a writing standpoint, I wish his heart attack and loss of the show/Ben had secretly made him panic, so he's just trying to put out this one last thing to be remembered for. Same with Loretta --that he is just trying for one last moment of romantic connection because what if he's doomed and THIS IS IT? etc.

In the past they've made Oliver insufferable but I still cared about him. This season he's just plain insufferable and I don't get him at all. He's a toxic tyrannical ass. I don't want his show to succeed -- he doesn't deserve it.

On 9/6/2023 at 9:29 AM, meep.meep said:

Especially cruel when the first two seasons Oliver was constantly at risk of being evicted because he didn't have a real job and couldn't pay the rent.

Seems like they are leaving the real apartment building out of the show.  It was a character in the other two seasons.

I know, I really miss feeling like each season we were getting to know the Arconia in a new way. It always felt like a character to me. Not this season.

On 9/6/2023 at 12:34 PM, Night Cheese said:

This season is so disjointed to me that I forget that the series is a murder-mystery show. I watch each episode of kooky, eccentric people doing kooky eccentric things. Then I come here to read everyone's comments and am taken aback for a second when everyone is speculating on who could be a killer or a red herring. I consistently forget that someone died and that's the whole premise of the show. 

Has it been explained why they aren't doing the podcast? Even if Oliver is avoiding it at all costs because he's afraid of his show going under, can't the others work on it? They're clearly still doing their amateur investigating, so why not record while you're doing it?

I agree on the murder-mystery aspect. Especially since they've done nothing to make us see Ben as a real person or victim at all.

And great point -- I totally forgot that they aren't doing the podcast anymore! Which is such a shame because I really liked that aspect of the show, and how it connected them to the outside world. I don't like this season at all.

On 9/8/2023 at 2:37 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

Non-theater nerd here:  Is it common to be rehearsing 1/2 hour before the curtain rises on opening night?  For a Broadway show? 

Nope. It isn't remotely believable, unless there was some last minute tech or personnel issue they need to block or work around at the last minute. Even then -- no. Not half an hour before curtain!

On 9/9/2023 at 1:20 PM, shapeshifter said:

Mabel and Tobert seem to have a strong enough physical attraction, but I don't see any soulmate connection there — even if there is a bit of mind melding over the murder mystery that is lacking from Charles' or Oliver's current relationships.

I don't see any chemistry there at all, and I don't feel like he's written to be charming enough for me to overlook it. He just comes off as suspicious and clingy to me, not charming or light-hearted, and that's a bummer, because I think that would have been so much better (and I would love for Mabel to have a love interest who buoys her up and supports her).

Edited September 17, 2023 by paramitch
missing word!

[shapeshifter]

37 minutes ago, paramitch said:

In a continuing theme for me this season, I didn't much like this one. This episode was a mess, and all over the place, like this season. It has people doing things for stupid "because the writers said so" reasons

You’re not wrong, IMO, but

Spoiler

it gets better.

 

37 minutes ago, paramitch said:

I don't buy that Charles didn't have a single thing in his aquarium for President McKinley to begin with. (Seriously? Not even a fake little plant? No treasure chest?)

I thought the aquarium was something Joy brought when she moved in and left behind with just President McKinley when she moved out, and that Charles wasn’t very familiar with the care and feeding of fish.

Moving an aquarium might cost almost as much as buying another?

[aradia22]

OK, now this was the filler episode. After how much I loved the last episode, this one was a little bit of a letdown but I still enjoyed it. 

They really found a focus for Oliver this season and his dramatic storylines have been very strong. Hopefully another Emmy nom for Martin Short.

The KT and Howard scenes were unnecessary but I like Howard so I'll allow it. Peter Bartlett made the most of a very silly role.

I'm going to have to disagree about Mabel this episode. Usually I defend Selena's acting but she was notably weak in that big confrontation in Ben's dressing room. 

Quote

By the way, the "Goosebury" theater interiors are being filmed at a theater I know all my life in the Washington Heights (yes, that "Heights") neighborhood of upper Manhattan, which is also the neighborhood where my husband grew up.  It's now known as the United Palace Theater on 4140 Broadway (and 175th St.).  It was originally a Loew's movie theater but it was constructed to also handle concerts and live vaudeville shows.

It's absolutely gorgeous. I don't have any reason to visit but I want to. Looking forward to them spending more time at the theater later in the season just so I can keep looking at it.