S02.E04: Among the Lotus Eaters

[historylover820]

19 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I actually took that to be a shout-out to the notion that Spock is dyslexic, according to Discovery, and he had to teach himself to read "normally." 

I hate Discovery. The less I can think about Discovery and stupid Michael the happier I am. The only two seasons I liked of Discovery were the first season (because I really enjoyed Jason Isaacs) and season 2 (because, of course, it introduced Anson Mount and Ethan Peck). So, I'm perfectly happy saying that Spock forgot how to read Federation Standard.

[tv-talk]

1 minute ago, historylover820 said:

and season 2 (because, of course, it introduced Anson Mount and Ethan Peck).

As a fellow loather of Discovery I stopped watching after Season1. So my question is- are there S2 episodes that feature Mount and Peck with very little Michael?

[historylover820]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

As a fellow loather of Discovery I stopped watching after Season1. So my question is- are there S2 episodes that feature Mount and Peck with very little Michael?

No episode of Discovery features very little Michael.

[rtms77]

15 hours ago, MissLucas said:

If Spock could not read the tablet with his info because he was dyslexic/it was not in his native language, what was everybody else's excuse? Was literacy on the list of things you lose in the forgetting? 

This doesn’t even make sense because , hello Amanda!? Surely  his mother knows Federation basic and would have taught him that. Most kids of two or more cultures learn , and have an easier time learning another language. Granted Amanda had to give up a lot but her own language, just to please Sarek? I just can’t see that. Did she read Alice in Wonderland in Vulcan to him?  The more I see of that marriage the more I feel Amanda was in love with an ideal or culture not the man. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, rtms77 said:

This doesn’t even make sense because , hello Amanda!? Surely  his mother knows Federation basic and would have taught him that. Most kids of two or more cultures learn , and have an easier time learning another language. Granted Amanda had to give up a lot but her own language, just to please Sarek? I just can’t see that. Did she read Alice in Wonderland in Vulcan to him?  The more I see of that marriage the more I feel Amanda was in love with an ideal or culture not the man. 

I was not sure "Federation basic/standard" was a thing. Universal translators exist, and we of course have to handwave a lot about how they work both in theory and practice (why, for instance, how it could possibly work as well as it does on first meeting users of a language, how/when/why certain phrases or words aren't translated, or why people don't look like badly dubbed Kung Fu movies as the translator does its work, how they would work with printed words or close to real time).

But given the existence of universal translators, I don't see why there would be a need to create/use a common base language. 

Anyway, looking things up on the Interwebs, it looks like it was established in a couple episodes of Discovery and Prodigy. 

My own experience was with a parent who fluent in Spanish, but never taught us children the language in part because of assimilation. I didn't hear that parent speak Spanish until I was an adult, though I intellectually knew she did. 

I would hope that wouldn't apply to Spock, as it would be only logical for children to know as many languages as possible, Vulcans value knowledge and presumably the notion that children are better able to pick up languages than adults also applies to half-human, half-Vulcan ones. But logic can be a funny thing. I'm sure that it could just as easily be argued that with the existence of a universal translator that logic dictates the time that learning Vulcan would suffice and the time and the additional energy needed to learn Federation Standard would be better devoted to transwarp mechanics or four-dimensional chess or something.

Also, I don't know if I would blame Amanda if Spock didn't know Federation Standard. He could have chosen not to learn it on his own in an attempt to assimilate amongst Vulcans.

[Prevailing Wind]

I think they all just forgot how to read.

[revbfc]

“My name is Elmer Fudd.  I own a mansion & a yacht.”

[Ceindreadh]

I felt so bad for Erica.  She was so looking forward to being part of the away team and wearing a cool hat.

I love that she put it back on when (presumably) going back to her quarters to change back into uniform.

I really hope that she gets on an away team before the end of the season.

[AWhittle]

2 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

I felt so bad for Erica.  She was so looking forward to being part of the away team and wearing a cool hat.

I love that she put it back on when (presumably) going back to her quarters to change back into uniform.

I really hope that she gets on an away team before the end of the season.

Same here.

Interestingly, the original pilot "The Cage" did make mention of visiting the planet. 

The writers are taking just about every mention In the pilot and TOS and weaving stories

https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/star-trek-first-strange-new-world-rigel-7-the-cage

[PurpleTentacle]

1 hour ago, AWhittle said:

The writers are taking just about every mention In the pilot and TOS and weaving stories

If only they had watched more of TOS than just the pilot...

[tkc]

"This episode was brought to you by Amazon, makers of fine Alexa products. So you'll always have someone to remind you how to get home."

Sure, there were plot holes, but it had the sensibilities of a classic Trek episode. I even loved the perpetually Pantone 257-coloured sky, the callback to the magenta and violet sky of Rigel VII from The Cage:

Edited July 8, 2023 by tkc

[statsgirl]

This episode was heavy on fiction and light on the science. If the radiation is wiping memory neurons, they're not going to come back after one night of no radiation.  And for the old man, they are probably never going to come back because of years of damage. Not to mention, repeated exposure would start whacking away muscle memory as well as higher level ones.

I can buy that Spock might not have been able to read Earth letters, our alphabet is not one that follows naturally from sounds.

However, why did the tablets  show bio information? They should have read "There is something causing you to lose your memory. If you have,

• you are the pilot, here is how to steer the ship
• you are the nurse, here is the database to help you treat crew members
• you are the communications officer, here is your comms information (etc.)

That would have been more useful.

I'm glad Ortega got to take a larger role in this episode, and she provided the Yay! factor. The show needs to spread the stories out over more of the tier 2 characters because La'an is starting to reach Wesley Crusher levels of Mary Sue-ism.

Good to know that Pike is the kind of jerk who breaks up with a woman because he's feeling uncomfortable in the relationship. it was TNG Picard's least attractive quality. Batel deserves better.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Pike looked to me like he'd put on some weight. He had a bit of a gut and a little more junk in the trunk. Good to see him back in swing of things though after his relative absence in the first three episodes.

Rigel VII was ice, ice, baby, too cold, too cold.

After those Kalar soldiers showed up to arrest the landing party I started hoping for an appearance by flying monkeys. Or Daenerys and her dragons.

Ortegas has a nice quarters.

When the ringing sound started I heard it on one side of my headphones first, and then the other side before it switched to both sides. I was looking around for a few seconds thinking the sound was coming from something in my room. It was almost disconcerting.

[marinw]

6 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Rigel VII was ice, ice, baby, too cold, too cold.

The Asteroid could have caused an ice age.

10 hours ago, tkc said:

the callback to the magenta and violet sky of Rigel VII from The Cage:

 

That is one huge Moon! Or is Rigel VII locked in a Binary Orbit with Rigel VI or Rigel VIII? I'm thinking about this too much.

12 hours ago, AWhittle said:

The writers are taking just about every mention In the pilot and TOS and weaving stories

I can't wait for the "Green slave animal women" 😑

Edited July 9, 2023 by marinw

[Raja]

48 minutes ago, marinw said:

I can't wait for the "Green slave animal women" 😑

Unfortunately Enterprise has already retconned what Starfleet knows about the Orions so the historical documents play out differently than the  original image we got of Captain Pike.

[PurpleTentacle]

2 hours ago, marinw said:

That is one huge Moon! Or is Rigel VII locked in a Binary Orbit with Rigel VI or Rigel VIII? I'm thinking about this too much.

Either way, the tidal forces must be tremendous. I'm wondering how that building is still standing, especially this close to a big body of water.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

Unfortunately Enterprise has already retconned what Starfleet knows about the Orions so the historical documents play out differently than the  original image we got of Captain Pike.

These hacks have already broken TOS canon... Archer canon is carved in ice on Vulcan...

[tkc]

4 hours ago, marinw said:

That is one huge Moon! Or is Rigel VII locked in a Binary Orbit with Rigel VI or Rigel VIII? I'm thinking about this too much.

Well, here’s a picture at Glastonbury Tor showing our moon at a similar scale…

[marinw]

4 hours ago, Raja said:

Unfortunately Enterprise has already retconned what Starfleet knows about the Orions so the historical documents play out differently than the  original image we got of Captain Pike.

I vaguely remember  that. I skipped a lot of Enterprise.

3 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Either way, the tidal forces must be tremendous. I'm wondering how that building is still standing, especially this close to a big body of water.

I'm reminded of that Voyager episode wherein Voyager got stuck in orbit around a planet which caused Earthquakes (Or whatever the Planet Quakes were called on that world). It was mentioned that the buildings contained a lot of Iron.

Edited July 9, 2023 by marinw

[AWhittle]

6 hours ago, Raja said:

Unfortunately Enterprise has already retconned what Starfleet knows about the Orions so the historical documents play out differently than the  original image we got of Captain Pike.

Retcon… The damned Temporal Wars  in the 21st century is wreaking havoc on what we have known for decades! 🤣

Such convenient hand waving.

[PurpleTentacle]

2 hours ago, tkc said:

Well, here’s a picture at Glastonbury Tor showing our moon at a similar scale…

That's done with a long focal lens that makes distant objects look much, much bigger (and sometimes just straight up photoshop). It wouldn't look like that in person. I mean you can just look up at night to see the difference.

I don't think we are meant to assume that we are seeing episodes of Star Trek through such a lens.

https://inlightofnature.com/photos-of-a-large-moon/

[paigow]

3 hours ago, tkc said:

Well, here’s a picture at Glastonbury Tor showing our moon at a similar scale…

My eye feels like it was hit by a big pizza pie... or Amore

[Prevailing Wind]

You can get the same effect by pasting a tortilla to your window.

[Guest]

On 7/7/2023 at 7:19 AM, MissLucas said:

If Spock could not read the tablet with his info because he was dyslexic/it was not in his native language, what was everybody else's excuse? Was literacy on the list of things you lose in the forgetting? 

I think the excuse is that Spock’s plan sucked. Except for Spock, the senior officers weren’t just sitting there holding the tablet. 

On 7/8/2023 at 8:35 PM, statsgirl said:

However, why did the tablets  show bio information? They should have read "There is something causing you to lose your memory. If you have,

• you are the pilot, here is how to steer the ship
• you are the nurse, here is the database to help you treat crew members
• you are the communications officer, here is your comms information (etc.)

That would have been more useful.

Yep. I liked the episode but other shows have handled the details of a memory loss episode a lot better. Even the Stargate Atlantis crew thought to use recordings and a polaroid picture. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 7/8/2023 at 1:03 PM, Prevailing Wind said:

I think they all just forgot how to read.

Besides Erica, the old man on the planet remembered how to read and knew stuff from what was tattooed on his arm. The only person who had trouble reading that we were made aware of is Spock. 

[Ceindreadh]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Besides Erica, the old man on the planet remembered how to read and knew stuff from what was tattooed on his arm. The only person who had trouble reading that we were made aware of is Spock. 

The old man on the planet had to match the symbols on his arm to those on his shelter in order to know where he lived.  That's not the same as reading letters to form words.  I didn't see Erica reading anything after she orginally took the tablet from Spock. 

[paigow]

Before any descriptions were available, I thought this TOS episode was rebooted...

[Prevailing Wind]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Before any descriptions were available, I thought this TOS episode was rebooted...

The Space Hippies episode!

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

11 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

The old man on the planet had to match the symbols on his arm to those on his shelter in order to know where he lived.  That's not the same as reading letters to form words.  I didn't see Erica reading anything after she orginally took the tablet from Spock. 

The man from the field said that he had "oil from the gods" to create symbols. He then showed a tattoo and said that was how he knew his name was Luke. So yes, he can read. the symbols. 

I stand corrected as to Erica. She was told by the computer as to her identity.

[millennium]

Okay, so the premise is some douchey guy named Zac convinces a bunch of aliens that he should be their king, only to end up in hot water at the end.     

 

[Orbert]

I want to see a reboot of the Space Hippies episode, just so Spock can join them in the jam session.

[Zaffy]

"I am Erica Ortegas, and I fly the ship!" 
Go girl, finally you got more lines than usual :)

It did remind me of "I am 7 of 9, I will adapt".

[QuantumMechanic]

"My name is Erica Ortegas.  I fly the ship.  Prepare to die."

[Ottis]

On 7/7/2023 at 12:10 AM, QuantumMechanic said:

That struck me as the epitome of middle of the road Season 3 TOS:

* Interesting concept
* Good work from the primary guest star.
* Enh to good work from the regulars
* Some WTFs
* Decently engaging in the moment
* Totally falls apart once any thought/reflection is applied to it.

Agreed. Liked the concept, but it was weirdly limited.

Yep, Pike has big quarters. They have been shown before, they are absurd. Ok, then.

The guy left behind, Zac, was lightweight. Just a stand in for a bad decision, I guess. But nothing to him.

The moral seemed to be something about love, but it felt rushed. 

[shrewd.buddha]

On 7/8/2023 at 11:35 PM, statsgirl said:

However, why did the tablets  show bio information? They should have read "There is something causing you to lose your memory. 

Why were they using written information at all? 
Ortega was talking with the computer.  The interactive computer could have answered all of her questions. I suppose the writers had to ignore the fact that the ship could have taken care of everything.
There is a thing called autopilot.

This episode had a lot of issues. Maybe as a homage to TOS it could work : the minimal sets, a few people taking care of a castle, one prisoner hammering a boulder while others shuffled about , etc, etc. How could a population without the ability to remember even survive, produce food, etc? 

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by shrewd.buddha

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Why were they using written information at all? 
Ortega was talking with the computer.  The interactive computer could have answered all of her questions. I suppose the writers had to ignore the fact that the ship could have taken care of everything.
There is a thing called autopilot.

This episode had a lot of issues. Maybe as a homage to TOS it could work : the minimal sets, a few people taking care of a castle, one prisoner hammering a boulder while others shuffled about , etc, etc. How could a population without the ability to remember even survive, produce food, etc? 

The premise of the episode includes that the palace dwellers managed to immunize themselves from the amnesia radiation through a combination of living in the palace and wearing helmets made of the ore that protects from the amnesia radiation.

Handwaving exactly how lucky it was that there's an entire palace made of this metal and how the people of Rigel VII got to the point where they knew that the helmets would protect them takes some doing.

But we are shown that the palace dwellers basically enslaved the rest of the population to produce wood and other goods and services for them, and presumably enough for the non-palace people to survive.

There is also the notion that the amnesia is somewhat arbitrary. People remember some about their skills, so you don't have to re-teach people how to farm every day. So it's possible that even without the people with near-perfect memory, the remainder could retain and re-learn enough to take care of their basic needs.