The Curious Case Of Natalia Grace

[SunnyBeBe]

Ok….there are some REALLY bizarre stories coming out lately.  One, I recently saw on Oxygen, but this one is coming from ID.  It airs May 29.  Check out the trailer!  
 

 

[Annber03]

I've been seeing ads for that documentary, yeah! I'm planning to check it out, I'm genuinely curious about the case. It sounds wild. 

[One Tough Cookie]

WOWSERS!

[Annber03]

Just over halfway into the Natalia Grace story and I can already tell this is going to be a HELL of a ride. I've got a bunch of questions right off the bat, and I can sense I'm going to have a lot more by the time all is said and done. 

[SunnyBeBe]

22 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Just over halfway into the Natalia Grace story and I can already tell this is going to be a HELL of a ride. I've got a bunch of questions right off the bat, and I can sense I'm going to have a lot more by the time all is said and done. 

Me too. I googled to see what has happened but I still have a lot of questions.  I guess there’ll be two sides presented. 

 

Does anyone know the names of the parties in a case from years ago where the parents of a teen allow him to come home from a mental hospital for troubled youth, for a holiday visit only to have him murder them.  They were warned he was dangerous, but let him come home anyway.   It might have been on American Monster or an HBO Special.  

Edited May 30, 2023 by SunnyBeBe

[Annber03]

14 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Me too. I googled to see what has happened but I still have a lot of questions.  I guess there’ll be two sides presented. 

Does anyone know the names of the parties in a case from years ago where the parents of a teen allow him to come home from a mental hospital for troubled youth, for a holiday visit only to have him murder them.  They were warned he was dangerous, but let him come home anyway.   It might have been on American Monster or an HBO Special.  

I've lost count of how many times I've been yelling at the TV about the age thing. That whole aspect is just being handled REALLY weirdly throughout this whole story thus far, and I don't get why. 

The case you're asking about involved the Jenkins family, and yeah it was covered on an episode of "American Monster", and on "Killer Kids" as well. Such a horrifyingly sad case, that one. 

[TipseyGirl]

re: Natalia Grace

I am not trusting the dad AT. ALL. His bragging at the beginning that they had a McMansion and a driveway full of cars (one being a Lamborghini...or Ferrari...or some shit). Dude, your house was not that impressive and you didn't even have a garage big enough to accommodate all your stupid cars. That's not to say that I am not thoroughly confused about Natalia and her age, violent nature, etc. The interviews from the staff at the mental hospital are what's really keeping me from thinking the parents are solely to blame and are lying. Also, the little couple that said the husband had a bad feeling that something evil was in the room - and it may have been Natalia. So much creepiness. I'm really looking forward to the rest of this series, although I think I am going to be disappointed as far as getting my questions answered.

11 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I've lost count of how many times I've been yelling at the TV about the age thing. That whole aspect is just being handled REALLY weirdly throughout this whole story thus far, and I don't get why. 

This! Could they not have taken her to a specialist who would have been able to determine how old she was? DUH! So much about this case that I don't understand.

Edited May 30, 2023 by TipseyGirl

[borealis]

Another thing about the dad-- I knew he was lying about that day at the cow field thing, when he said that Natalia signed that statement about the electric fence. No way in hell a CHILD under TEN, or any minor, would sign a liability waiver!! Or anything close to it. Wouldn't be binding & I can't see any business owner expecting a child to sign it! lol But Dad said her eyes lit up & she was eager to sign it! WTF. 

Everyone is weird in this thing! Even the prospective adoptive parents. Judith, who seemed so mezmerised by Natalia that I think she has biases due just to that. She has really romanticized a mother/daughter relationship with someone she probably hasn't even spent a day with! And that other couple, where the husband said he felt she was evil. But he said that AFTER talking about how Natalia seemed to just be obeying what her adoptive mother at the time was telling her. I thought he'd say that the MOTHER seemed evil, cos clearly Natalia was looking to her as to what to say & do. So calling Natalia evil seemed contradictory. 

But then there's the stuff with the nurses talking about Natalia's behavior at the hospital. 

It even crossed my mind that somehow Natalia and KRISTINE were in cahoots from the get go!! I mean it's all so bizarre!!

As far as someone being able to tell her age, couldn't they have taken her to a dentist? Different teeth grow in at different ages. Isn't there like a 12-year molar or something?? 

 

[Andyourlittledog2]

Just from the commercials the dad was super sketchy.  Any grown man who throws himself down and pounds his fists on the carpet while screaming in frustration like a two year old loses points big time with me. Andy yeah, no one, NO ONE, asks a child to sign a liability waiver. And seeing his story change from 2019 to 2022 really put the whole cow pasture trip into question.  Side question: Why were they walking over that way to begin with? I thought they were there to see cows and milk them. You don't do that by walking through the pasture, the cows desired would be at the barn not grazing in a field. Who would have paying guests/customers wandering through their pastures? It just seemed odd.

When the dad described his marvelous home and cars and then we saw the actual home I couldn't believe it. There is truly something wrong with that man and it was wrong long before Natalia arrived. Also, who adopts a child (not a tiny infant, but a child) sight unseen and signs the paperwork on the fly like that?  It seemed like a made up story to disguise the fact that Natalia was actually rehomed from the original adoptive parents and they paid them for her. Rehoming of adopted kids is a national scandal that mostly goes on without notice. This seemed like a rehoming situation more than anything.

I cannot believe I am watching this. lol

[Annber03]

9 hours ago, TipseyGirl said:

re: Natalia Grace

I am not trusting the dad AT. ALL. His bragging at the beginning that they had a McMansion and a driveway full of cars (one being a Lamborghini...or Ferrari...or some shit). Dude, your house was not that impressive and you didn't even have a garage big enough to accommodate all your stupid cars. That's not to say that I am not thoroughly confused about Natalia and her age, violent nature, etc. The interviews from the staff at the mental hospital are what's really keeping me from thinking the parents are solely to blame and are lying. Also, the little couple that said the husband had a bad feeling that something evil was in the room - and it may have been Natalia. So much creepiness. I'm really looking forward to the rest of this series, although I think I am going to be disappointed as far as getting my questions answered.

This! Could they not have taken her to a specialist who would have been able to determine how old she was? DUH! So much about this case that I don't understand.

YES! THANK YOU! They were talking about how they took her to a doctor to get foot surgery - surely at that point the doctor would've wanted to know how old she was, so they could plan out their treatments accordingly, and if they weren't getting a straight answer in that regard, then wouldn't they have, I dunno...said something to somebody? 

I just...do not get how NOBODY is thinking to state the obvious and find a specialist who can solve the freaking mystery of her age. Why is everyone letting that rather important question linger for so freaking long? 

And yeeeeeeeeeeeeeah, I was already side-eyeing the dad when he started going on about how fancy his home was and how many TVs and couches he had and all that. We get it, dude, you had money. The lawyer, I think it was, that they interviewed later said something about how Michael and Kristine had an image they wanted to present to the world, and based off that opening introduction from Michael, yeah, I can believe that. Easily. 

6 hours ago, borealis said:

Another thing about the dad-- I knew he was lying about that day at the cow field thing, when he said that Natalia signed that statement about the electric fence. No way in hell a CHILD under TEN, or any minor, would sign a liability waiver!! Or anything close to it. Wouldn't be binding & I can't see any business owner expecting a child to sign it! lol But Dad said her eyes lit up & she was eager to sign it! WTF. 

...

But then there's the stuff with the nurses talking about Natalia's behavior at the hospital. 

It even crossed my mind that somehow Natalia and KRISTINE were in cahoots from the get go!! I mean it's all so bizarre!!

Same thing came to my mind immediately with the release form. That's another thing that's confusing the hell out of me about this - everyone's treating her like she's an adult, claiming she's signing release forms, and then the people at that mental health hospital are talking about how adult she's acting...

...and so my thinking is, okay, if she is an adult...then this family is under no legal obligation whatsoever to keep her, or bring her back home from the mental hospital. 

And yet this family keeps acting like she's an adult and yet continually treating her like she's a child, and they're treating her more like a merely troubled child than someone who, if their stories are anything to go by, is actively threatening their lives and putting them all in legitimate danger, to the point where another psychiatrist actively warns them that she's a threat to them. 

To say nothing of how Michael and Kristine went to the adoption agency despite having some reservations about where it was and how it looked. Maybe listen to your gut next time? 

Also, if a child was just dumped off at an adoption agency by a family that wanted nothing to do with them anymore*, as it seems Natalia was when Michael and Kristine saw her for the first time...would she really be so friendly and shouting, "Mommy! Daddy!" upon seeing them? People who are, at that point, total strangers to her? She wouldn't be afraid or shy or reserved or anything? Especially given she's come from a whole other country? That's a hell of a lot for a six year old child to go through. 

*Granted, I've never been to an adoption agency, but there's also the fact that I would like to think they would make the experience of a family returning a child as gentle and easy as possible for the child, and wouldn't just have the parents drop them off and be like, "Well, we're out of here, bye now!" without making sure they've got all the paperwork signed to turn the child back over to the agency and whatnot. At least, a reputable adoption agency would, I would think/hope. 

All of the above being said, I also have to quibble with the woman who kept saying that parents should be able to control their kids and not take their threats so seriously, 'cause, on the one hand, I agree on a general level, but on the other hand...I mean, we've all seen far too many true crime stories where children/teenagers wound up following through on some very violent threats, with very tragic results, so... If I had a kid and they were standing at the end of my bed with a knife and making comments about wanting to kill me and the rest of our family, uh, yeah, you'd better believe I'd take that VERY seriously. 

The rehoming suggestion is a good theory about what might be going on here. I'm also wondering if we'll find out there was some abuse of these other foster kids that Michael and Kristine had been helping and whatnot. 

I also feel for Jacob already. To go from a child prodigy to where he is in this interview, and how uncomfortable he is talking about all that's happened, has me even more nervous about where this story's going to go. 

Anywho, I'm glad I'm not the only one completely confused and asking these same questions of these people. Everyone in this story is just weird as hell and I'm genuinely curious to see where else this crazy rollercoaster's gonna go next. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Annber03

[SunnyBeBe]

Well, two more episodes and it gets even weirder!  Omg, where to start?  It seems everyone in that first apt complex disliked Natalia and thought she was dangerous and scary.  I’m not sure what to make of it. Who was the neighbor that never showed her head?  They sounded odd.  Was it that difficult to keep Natalia out of your home?  Just lock your door.
 

  I just don’t know what to make of it.  As far as the second place they found for her to live….it was being paid for by her disability check, according to Michael, and that might be all she could afford.  If you get help through subsidized housing, that could be a factor of the location too.  I would imagine an apartment in a safe neighborhood would have been more expensive, but she should have had accommodations made to use the appliances and definitely a phone. 
 

Ref. Michael.  He probably caused his own arrest by badmouthing his wife! You know the saying….People have the right to remain silent, but rarely the ability.  Lol. If he truly witnessed abuse, whether it be an actual child or a vulnerable adult, he should be ashamed and held accountable. To stand by and do nothing is indefensible!  Just as guilty as the abuser.  

Edited May 31, 2023 by SunnyBeBe

[Annber03]

17 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I just don’t know what to make of it.  As far as the second place they found for her to live….it was being paid for by her disability check, according to Michael, and that might be all she could afford.  If you get help through subsidized housing, that could be a factor of the location too.  I would imagine an apartment in a safe neighborhood would have been more expensive, but she should have had accommodations made to use the appliances and definitely a phone. 

What confuses me, though, is that she's stuck in this dumpy place in a bad neighborhood, and yet she's coming from a home where supposedly, the Barretts had everything financially that they ever wanted*. Add in the fact that rent for a house is not that expensive in the Midwest compared to other parts of the country and surely they could've found her a nice little one-story home  somewhere. And one that was comparatively more amenable to her needs besides, with steps she wouldn't have to struggle to climb and everything on the first floor and stuff within easy reach in her house. 

*Seriously, Michael, nobody cares about your fancy cars. 

Quote

Ref. Michael.  He probably caused his own arrest by badmouthing his wife! You know the saying….People have the right to remain silent, but rarely the ability.  Lol

I said the EXACT same thing towards the end of this portion of the documentary. I was like, "I would exercise that Fifth Amendment right now if I were you, bud." Those text messages between him and Kristine towards the end were hella damning, and if a particular accusation she made regarding Natalia in one of them is anything to go by, I have a very sinking feeling of where this story might be going in regards to Michael, and on the one hand, I wouldn't be at all surprised if my suspicions turn out to be right, but on the other hand, I'm increasingly nervous about the idea that it could go where I think it will... This story's been pretty creepy and messed up already, but I just have this feeling that we haven't seen the half of it yet. 

But dear god. Seriously. My head is spinning trying to unpack all of the revelations tonight. We have Kristine beating Natalia because she suspects this girl is not a little girl but a grown woman, and Michael just...quietly tries to record this, supposedly, and otherwise does nothing. He doesn't try to push Kristine away or put himself in her line of anger, he doesn't, like, try calling the police at work, he keeps this phone with these deleted videos for YEARS, in the hopes that maybe someday someone will retrieve them, but doesn't think at any point to just volunteer this phone to the police himself after he and Kristine divorce... Okay. 

Also, okay, so they can't have Natalia in their house anymore because of the kind of threat she poses, to the point where a psychiatrist advised them to escort her to various rooms in the house because they can't trust her to be left alone.

So, knowing that, why, on God's green earth, would they think, hey, you know where would be a good place for her to live? An apartment complex. Among other people! Who may also be subject to whatever creepy behavior she exhibited. And indeed, her neighbors had many stories of just that sort of thing happening, to the point where they were locking their doors. I mean, I know housing can be tough in the best of times, but still...

Also, if this judge has decided she's twenty-two years old because of that convoluted reasoning they came up with to make her that age, then wouldn't that render the Barretts' adoption of her null and void? 'Cause that would mean she was a legal adult when she came to live with them, right? So why are they continuing to shell out all this money for her as a result? If she's an adult and always has been, then she's not legally theirs. She would've never been legally theirs. 

That's the part that's boggling my mind the most about all of this. Michael and Kristine have apparently just accepted that Natalia's been an adult this entire time they've had her, and yet they still kept her in their house despite the fact she threatened their family and put them in extreme fear, and they're still acting like they're legally obligated to care for her even though they wouldn't be if she's not the child she claims to be. There has to be another reason, then, why they would've kept her around as long as they did despite their suspicions and despite the supposed evidence proving she's an adult, and whatever that reason is, it's not a good one. I am damn sure of that. 

Course, I say all of the above, but then there's Michael tripping himself up with the implication she was underage when she came to live with them - and that I could potentially buy, because thinking she's a child when she's actually in her early to mid teens, that's still a notable gap, sure, but not nearly as big of one as "She's six, but no, maybe she's actually twenty". And her being a teenager would explain some of why she looks and acts as she does.

So...*Throws hands in the air*.  I don't know. I will never understand why it's so freaking hard for these people to just get some kind of definitive answer to this question. Unless it's revealed the Barretts already knew the whole time just how old she was, that is, and didn't disclose that for whatever reason, but...this is basically me right now trying to sort out the WTF logistics of that part of things:

Just...somebody make it make sense already. Please.

As for the abuse claims, I have no problem believing Kristine beat Natalia, partially because I can see her doing that based off some of her behavior as described in this documentary thus far and partially because, well, she admitted as much in those text exchanges. 

But man, when Michael was recreating that one beating he said he was witness to, and the way she talked to him about why she was punishing Natalia, it was so dramatic in a way that was just...a LOT. Michael just seems to be a guy who can never simply explain something, he always has to make a huge production out of it and make everything sound so dramatic and so over the top. It's very off-putting. 

All of the above being said, yeah, we need to look at what the hell's going on with Natalia, too, 'cause the stories from the people in her apartment building were super unsettling and weird, and there was that bizarre 911 call, and the way she just seems to automatically make anyone she meets very uncomfortable. Also, all the stories about her being inappropriate with boys in the area, combined with Jacob's reticence to get too in depth about things...like I said, I just have an icky feeling. I sincerely hope I'm wrong about that feeling, but we shall see, I guess. 

Bottom line, this case is both fascinating and also makes my head hurt something fierce. 

[For Cereals]

This is nuts.  At first I thought it’s the true life Orphan case, but I think this is really bad neglect.  I really need to understand Natalia’s origin and how all the people who were approached to adopt Natalia in some shady transaction never called any authorities. 

Michael Barnett gives me the creeps with his histrionics and it was really disturbing how he was intimidating Natalia in that apartment, erasing her contacts and questioning where she got food.  This man is acting like it’s his big debut, not a serious documentary. I have no doubt they left her without basic necessities at times.  Kristine just seems like a peach especially given Jacob’s discomfort.

I feel badly for the neighbors, but this is truly a case of abuse and neglect all around.  I think Natalia could have some developmental delays or behavioral issues, but there has been really no one to help model any appropriate behavior for her and I Don doubt there has been sexual abuse somewhere.  I’m not shocked but also saddened that more wasn’t done to check in or follow up with Natalia once contact had been cut off from social services.

I think they are leaving a lot out, but I hope we get more answers tomorrow.

[SunnyBeBe]

Ref. the adoption….they haven’t addressed the legality of the adoption that much, based on what I saw.  I did miss a little of the beginning of last night’s first episode. So, some states allow adult adoptions where the person being adopted is over the age of 18. In my state it’s allowed but the person being adopted must consent if they are over the age of 12.  
 

ID has done a poor job of advertising how many episodes there are in this docu series. From what I can gather, it’s 6 episodes and the last two air tonight.  
 

I’ve read ahead and know what happens, but I’m still confused as to why the show seems to go on and on as if it’s a character assassination.  At times it’s like a parody. 

Edited May 31, 2023 by SunnyBeBe

[Whimsy]

9 hours ago, For Cereals said:

This is nuts.  At first I thought it’s the true life Orphan case, but I think this is really bad neglect.  I really need to understand Natalia’s origin and how all the people who were approached to adopt Natalia in some shady transaction never called any authorities. 

Michael Barnett gives me the creeps with his histrionics and it was really disturbing how he was intimidating Natalia in that apartment, erasing her contacts and questioning where she got food.  This man is acting like it’s his big debut, not a serious documentary. I have no doubt they left her without basic necessities at times.  Kristine just seems like a peach especially given Jacob’s discomfort.

I feel badly for the neighbors, but this is truly a case of abuse and neglect all around.  I think Natalia could have some developmental delays or behavioral issues, but there has been really no one to help model any appropriate behavior for her and I Don doubt there has been sexual abuse somewhere.  I’m not shocked but also saddened that more wasn’t done to check in or follow up with Natalia once contact had been cut off from social services.

I think they are leaving a lot out, but I hope we get more answers tomorrow.

All of this.  Michael is.... a lot.  He is so dramatic with everything.  The amount of details he provides to all of his stories are so eye-rolling.  There's no way he'd remember all of those details.  He obviously embellishes a LOT to make himself sound better.  The one that keeps coming to me when I think of this is when he says that Natalia's eyes "lit up" when they said the electric fence was on and dangerous.  

I haven't read up on this case yet because I want to see how the story unfolds in this series, but I am sure I'll be searching for more answers once it concludes.  I wholeheartedly (at this moment) agree with the bolded section the most.  Adult or child- she was neglected.  The Barnett's took her social security for themselves.  Michael had it signed over to him as "payback".  I fully suspect that he paid the bare minimum for her living arrangements and pocketed the rest because he felt Natalia "owed" them.  I also fully believe that the 2nd apartment- they left her there to die.  Either by falling down the stairs, getting mugged/attacked as she walked around or just simply starvation.  They were wanting Natalia to die.  Yes, she was very odd and didn't understand boundaries, but it seems she was never taught.  

One of the things that confuses me as we look at Natalia and try to figure out her age is that her face matures during all of the years worth of pictures they showed. So, maybe she didn't grow taller, but her face changed over the years.  Also, her voice seemingly deepened with some of the early video and then that interview with her in 2022.  I still don't know how old she was, but they hung their hat on her going through puberty very early, but that can happen! Also, I found it very odd that they ALWAYS talked down to her like she was a child- even when they thought she was in her 20's.  They scolded her and treated her like a misbehaving child.  I just...  I don't know.  I do think she was older than 6 when they got her, though.  Just not a full-blown adult.

The Barnett's are by far the bad ones here.  The Barnett's treated Natalia like she was a con-artist who 100% was trying to take advantage.  I just don't see it that way.  I don't think Natalia was a true grifter pretending to be a child to worm her way into a family.  I think she probably has developmental delays- most likely due to abuse and trauma in her life- and she just went with the "flow" and thought that was what was supposed to happen (being adopted).  Because of her upbringing, she didn't know how to behave in a family/society.  

[Pi237]

Michael asked the detective “did she say I never hurt her? That I tried to stop her being beaten?” Sounded scared and guilty. Guy is super Creepy and Weird!  He’s acting all the time. You can see on the older kid and Natalia’s face in the videos-they’re trying to figure out what they should say. Trying to play the right role to please Michael.  And Who tapes their child while they’re chastising them? Those interrogations they were both doing. Trying to make Natalia say what they wanted her to say. “You lied right? You’re lying to me” they probably berated her like that for an hour and only saved a few minutes of tape to have ‘proof.’  But all it proved is they’re gaslighting assholes. They were twisting that kids mind (& their own kids too I’m sure) into a pretzel. I’m sure she had issues already, but they were erasing any chance she had to contact people, isolating her completely and abandoning her to protect themselves not her or anyone else. 

Natalia’s inappropriate sexual behavior is clear evidence of past abuse. She was probably 10 or 11 when they adopted her, and was no doubt sexually abused beforehand.  The behavior with the neighbors was inappropriate, but not surprising for someone who grew up around adults she could never trust & who had no normal social skills. Not saying she wasn’t capable of murder etc who knows? But she was failed by everyone around her. I’d Love to hear from the people who had her before, the ones who wouldn’t talk. They were trying to sell her. I wouldn’t doubt they abused her or let others abuse her. 

[LexieLily]

14 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Also, if this judge has decided she's twenty-two years old because of that convoluted reasoning they came up with to make her that age, then wouldn't that render the Barretts' adoption of her null and void? 'Cause that would mean she was a legal adult when she came to live with them, right? So why are they continuing to shell out all this money for her as a result? If she's an adult and always has been, then she's not legally theirs. She would've never been legally theirs. 

That's the part that's boggling my mind the most about all of this. Michael and Kristine have apparently just accepted that Natalia's been an adult this entire time they've had her, and yet they still kept her in their house despite the fact she threatened their family and put them in extreme fear, and they're still acting like they're legally obligated to care for her even though they wouldn't be if she's not the child she claims to be. There has to be another reason, then, why they would've kept her around as long as they did despite their suspicions and despite the supposed evidence proving she's an adult, and whatever that reason is, it's not a good one. I am damn sure of that. 

This is what confuses me more than anything at all in this entire damn series, despite the fact that I didn't think it was as easy as they claimed it was to randomly change someone's age on a birth certificate, even if they were told to do so on the advice of a cop. (???)

Let's just say she's twenty-two, or at least she isn't six. Let's say she's of legal age. Wouldn't that make the entire adoption, which probably wasn't on the up and up to begin with, not applicable? For better or for worse the Bartletts went to the scummy adoption house because they wanted a six-year-old child, and if Natalia isn't (a) six or (b) a child, isn't that false advertising or whatever? If Natalia is of legal age - yeah, it's not nice to abandon a dependent of yours in another apartment while the Bartletts and their bio-children move on, but it's not illegal. 

And none of this touches on the main issue for me in that, if even half of what the Bartletts said was true and Natalia was constantly trying to murder them and the bio-children, the questions about Natalia's true age are the least of their issues. The Bartletts, so far, are so weirdly passive about this child/not-child that's living in their house and trying to kill them, and might or might not be a diagnosed sociopath. Protect your other children! 

[libgirl2]

I started watching this on ID. Tonight is the final episode. I honestly don't know what to make of her. And her "family", yikes. 

Anyone else watching? 

[Cobb Salad]

I’ve been watching.  I can’t make up my mind who is actually a “good guy” here.  The legal expert lady said “maybe there’s more than one bad guy here” and that’s close to how I’ve been thinking about this whole thing.  It’s interesting how they’re making Kristina look bad and we haven’t seen her interviewed nor has there been any indication that they tried to get her side and failed (unless I missed something) - she’s a real piece of work but so is Michael. 

Watching last night’s episode about how they dumped Natalia in an apartment to force her to live on her own- that was cruel.  The comments the neighbors made about her appearance and how she was behaving toward people in my mind demonstrated she wasn’t some adult trying to pass herself off as a little kid.  Some of her behavior was pretty weird though.  Then at the second apartment where that one neighborhood woman got Natalia to sign her benefits over to her from Michael - I’m not sure if that was a genuine attempt to help Natalia or she just saw her as a $500/month meal ticket.  All of a sudden Michael’s concerned.  I did some research and apparently this woman is still trying to establish legal guardianship.  

There’s so much more I could say but I can’t believe something like this was even really allowed to happen.  

[nokat]

On 5/30/2023 at 6:26 AM, TipseyGirl said:

am not trusting the dad AT. ALL.

I was the same. There is more to come, but the neighbors have things to say, and how much is because of her size.

14 hours ago, For Cereals said:

but I think this is really bad neglect.

As more was presented, I thought neglect from early on. She was surviving the best she could.

Then the scary stuff was shown.

[babyhouseman]

I've been watching it. It's one of the craziest shows I've ever seen.  The father is over the top and acts like he's waiting for his close up, Mr. Demille. The oldest son is a genius and acts depressed. I would be too if I were in this mess. 

Edited May 31, 2023 by babyhouseman

[nokat]

4 hours ago, Pi237 said:

 And Who tapes their child while they’re chastising them? Those interrogations they were both doing. Trying to make Natalia say what they wanted her to say. “You lied right?

That was so creepy and weird. It's why I don't believe anything said.

[Andyourlittledog2]

If a judge adjudicated her age as 22 based on medical opinion and it's six or so years later then I don't get how Michael saying he thought she might be 22 when the detective talked to him had any weight in court.  If she is officially, legally 22 then child neglect is not legally possible.

The problem is that she is a vulnerable disabled adult and Michael and Kristine made themselves de facto responsible for her and they can't just drop her off somewhere without any assistance etc and wash their hands of her. They have a duty that they took on and if they had gotten adult protective services involved and set her up in assisted living for instance with a case worker they probably could have withdrawn that way. Instead they acted stupid and cruelly and left her there to fend for herself without a phone or any way to contact anyone. That is a crime. That I believe they could be convicted of, but not child neglect. Coming in after the fact and just deciding she must be a child of sixteen when she was dropped off because Michael (who cannot stop talking ever) said he thought she might have been shouldn't have that kind of weight in court. I guess we'll see when this shitshow ends tonight.

[Annber03]

5 hours ago, Pi237 said:

Michael asked the detective “did she say I never hurt her? That I tried to stop her being beaten?” Sounded scared and guilty. Guy is super Creepy and Weird!  He’s acting all the time. You can see on the older kid and Natalia’s face in the videos-they’re trying to figure out what they should say. Trying to play the right role to please Michael.  And Who tapes their child while they’re chastising them? Those interrogations they were both doing. Trying to make Natalia say what they wanted her to say. “You lied right? You’re lying to me” they probably berated her like that for an hour and only saved a few minutes of tape to have ‘proof.’  But all it proved is they’re gaslighting assholes. They were twisting that kids mind (& their own kids too I’m sure) into a pretzel. I’m sure she had issues already, but they were erasing any chance she had to contact people, isolating her completely and abandoning her to protect themselves not her or anyone else. 

That was so freaking weird and creepy, too. That, and Michael and Kristine being hellbent on trying to make sure all her contacts are erased from her phone, and the whole thing of Kristine apparently leaving Natalia in Lafayette because it's a "white trash" town*...they are clearly scared about something coming out. Something really bad  They talked about the CPS investigation having to end, and how happy Michael was about that, and I was like, well, of course he was. If she was indeed underage when they took her in, but everyone's legally declared her an adult, thus rendering the CPS investigation moot, then hey, that means one less organization scrutinizing them, so hey, win-win for him, right? 

*I'm skeptical of a LOT of things about Michael's story thus far, but I can totally buy Kristine having that attitude. Her and Michael both, given the way Michael brags on their "riches". I heard that "white trash" comment and was like, "Well, fuck you, too, lady."

Also, can we talk about how Kristine, who Michael at one point described as being so frail because she had lupus, apparently was also strong enough to beat the shit out of Natalia the way he demonstrated? 

Quote

 

Natalia’s inappropriate sexual behavior is clear evidence of past abuse. She was probably 10 or 11 when they adopted her, and was no doubt sexually abused beforehand. 

 

That's what struck me so bizarre about the reactions of the staff at that mental health facility when they had Natalia in their care. They were so weirded out by her behavior and how sexually forward she was and everything, and I was like, "...and did none of you consider that this might be the result of some kind of sexual abuse in her past, or...?" It seemed like the people there didn't seem all that interested in delving into what was going on with her, at least, if those anonymous comments are any indication. They just seemed weirded out by her instead, which is both telling in terms of how strange her behavior would've been in comparison to how other patients behaved, and also in terms of how many people have dropped the ball. I can get Michael and Kristine not wanting to check her real age because of whatever shady nonsense they're pulling, at least that would explain their decision, shitty though that explanation would be. 

But the fact that so many judges, doctors, mental health officials, etc. have come and gone without a single one of them deciding to get to the bottom of the age thing once and for all...that's just beyond me. That I don't get. A doctor can apparently find someone who shares Natalia's disability just fine, or somebody knows someone who supposedly speaks her language, but there's not a single soul out there who apparently knows a specialist or investigator or whomever that can tell us how freaking old she is, or at least give us a definitive age range. Okay. Sure. 

3 hours ago, LexieLily said:

This is what confuses me more than anything at all in this entire damn series, despite the fact that I didn't think it was as easy as they claimed it was to randomly change someone's age on a birth certificate, even if they were told to do so on the advice of a cop. (???)

Let's just say she's twenty-two, or at least she isn't six. Let's say she's of legal age. Wouldn't that make the entire adoption, which probably wasn't on the up and up to begin with, not applicable? For better or for worse the Bartletts went to the scummy adoption house because they wanted a six-year-old child, and if Natalia isn't (a) six or (b) a child, isn't that false advertising or whatever? If Natalia is of legal age - yeah, it's not nice to abandon a dependent of yours in another apartment while the Bartletts and their bio-children move on, but it's not illegal. 

And none of this touches on the main issue for me in that, if even half of what the Bartletts said was true and Natalia was constantly trying to murder them and the bio-children, the questions about Natalia's true age are the least of their issues. The Bartletts, so far, are so weirdly passive about this child/not-child that's living in their house and trying to kill them, and might or might not be a diagnosed sociopath. Protect your other children! 

Yeah, that's the part hat disturbs me the most, too. This girl threatened not just you two, but your other children. And yet you're continuing to let her live in your house, and are fully on board with the idea that she's an adult masquerading as a child, and...that's that, then. What? 

I like your question marks after the thing about the cop advising them to change her age, 'cause that struck me odd, too. Are cops usually able to give that kind of suggestion/legal advice to people? Wouldn't that be something that maybe an attorney might be better equipped to handle?

And hell, speaking of attorneys, for that matter, once they started realizing all this shady stuff was going on with Natalia, and given their initial suspicions of the adoption agency, did Michael and Kristine ever consider maybe getting an attorney to look into that adoption agency and see just how legit or not they really were? 'Cause if they weren't a legitimate agency, that could've solved SO many of the Barretts' problems, and they would've had a hell of an easier time getting whatever information about her past that they needed as a result, and that agency could've been investigated and we could've found out more about why Natalia was acting as she was, and what the deal was with all this weird stuff going on around her. To say nothing of how investigating that agency could potentially protect other children who came and went through there, too.

Again, though, nobody takes the simple, obvious, logical option here. They just keep rolling with the weird and creepy and then when it gets to be too much, they try and send her away in a way that brings even more suspicion and scrutiny onto them instead, and which drags their kids and other neighbors/townspeople into the mess as well. Great plan, guys!

[One Tough Cookie]

On 5/29/2023 at 9:59 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Does anyone know the names of the parties in a case from years ago where the parents of a teen allow him to come home from a mental hospital for troubled youth, for a holiday visit only to have him murder them.  They were warned he was dangerous, but let him come home anyway.   It might have been on American Monster or an HBO Special.

IIRC, and this is the case you mentioned, I believe the family was in Texas and the father survived but was blinded.  But it could have been totally another case.

[SoMuchTV]

Well, curses on all y’all for getting me interested in this Natalia thing.  I too haven’t researched ahead and I can’t imagine what we’re going to find out tonight. 

I do have to wonder though. I get that it was not cool to put her in that upstairs apartment with no accessibility accommodations. But how difficult is it to at least get a freakin’ stool?

And, yeah, it was a good location because it was a “white trash” neighborhood?  So, white trash folks will pretty much leave each other alone, as opposed to “other” trash folks who will shoot or stab each other? That’s all I got. 

[borealis]

The following is from the NIH website. Yet none of these brainiacs thought to do this? Not even the judge who re-aged Natalia, based on the 'growth' idea? (I have more or less been the same height since I was 13! I'm almost 52 now!)

Estimation of age from development and eruption of teeth

The clinical method to assess dental age is based on the emergence of teeth in the mouth. This method is more suitable since it does not require any special equipment, expertise and is more economical. 

The times of eruption of teeth are fairly constant and this can be made use of in ascertaining the average age of eruption of the tooth. 

The estimation of age is an important and is commonly carried in medico legal area.

The use of teeth for determining someone's age has its origin 170 years ago when tooth eruption was first used for dental age estimation in connection with child labor. In response to the need for age estimation of factory children who were not allowed to be employed under the age of nine and with a restricted working time between 9 years and 12 years of age.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4130020/

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by borealis
formatting

[libgirl2]

2 hours ago, Cobb Salad said:

I’ve been watching.  I can’t make up my mind who is actually a “good guy” here.  The legal expert lady said “maybe there’s more than one bad guy here” and that’s close to how I’ve been thinking about this whole thing.  It’s interesting how they’re making Kristina look bad and we haven’t seen her interviewed nor has there been any indication that they tried to get her side and failed (unless I missed something) - she’s a real piece of work but so is Michael. 

Watching last night’s episode about how they dumped Natalia in an apartment to force her to live on her own- that was cruel.  The comments the neighbors made about her appearance and how she was behaving toward people in my mind demonstrated she wasn’t some adult trying to pass herself off as a little kid.  Some of her behavior was pretty weird though.  Then at the second apartment where that one neighborhood woman got Natalia to sign her benefits over to her from Michael - I’m not sure if that was a genuine attempt to help Natalia or she just saw her as a $500/month meal ticket.  All of a sudden Michael’s concerned.  I did some research and apparently this woman is still trying to establish legal guardianship.  

There’s so much more I could say but I can’t believe something like this was even really allowed to happen.  

There was also that phone call she made at the first apartment about stalking and wanting to hurt her neighbor. There is some form of mental illness there. The neighbors there did not like her very much. 

Every time, I feel bad for her and feel that yes, she is a child, something comes up and I question what I was just thinking! 

I do hope this woman/family that she has been living with are genuine, though legal guardianship could mean a) control over income or possible income or b) she is mentally ill and cannot take care of herself. 

 

1 hour ago, babyhouseman said:

I've been watching it. It's one of the craziest shows I've ever seen.  The father is over the top and acts like he's waiting for his close up, Mr. Demille. The oldest son is a genius and acts depressed. I would be too if I were in this mess. 

That family is messed up. The mother was doing some kind of SM porn or something? Unless I heard wrong. The son being a genius might explain his depression, sometimes that does occur. 

 

[One Tough Cookie]

Well, I am two episodes in and have to say that Michael creeps me the fuck out.  Dude, are you trying for an Emmy?  I did feel enormous sympathy for Jacob. I've worked with kids with Asperger/autism and know how well they can do given the right love and encouragement. Jacob seemed to be a lost soul.

I'm not sure what will happen in epi 3, but I guess it will be a Doozey.

NOW:  I've been watching the Casey Anthony story on Oxygen and have to say this:  I was impressed by her looking straight into the camera--no wandering eye trying to talk her way out of something and she seemed sincere.  I watched her emotions during the funeral and I totally believed her. I think George knows what happened.  An speaking of George,while I didn't at the time believe the allegations, I do now.

I would like to type more and have discussions with you guys, but am limited to what I can type due to arthritis, but I am enjoying everyone's take on Natalia. will have 3 more to watch tomorrow.

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

If a judge adjudicated her age as 22 based on medical opinion and it's six or so years later then I don't get how Michael saying he thought she might be 22 when the detective talked to him had any weight in court.  If she is officially, legally 22 then child neglect is not legally possible.

The problem is that she is a vulnerable disabled adult and Michael and Kristine made themselves de facto responsible for her and they can't just drop her off somewhere without any assistance etc and wash their hands of her. They have a duty that they took on and if they had gotten adult protective services involved and set her up in assisted living for instance with a case worker they probably could have withdrawn that way. Instead they acted stupid and cruelly and left her there to fend for herself without a phone or any way to contact anyone. That is a crime. That I believe they could be convicted of, but not child neglect. Coming in after the fact and just deciding she must be a child of sixteen when she was dropped off because Michael (who cannot stop talking ever) said he thought she might have been shouldn't have that kind of weight in court. I guess we'll see when this shitshow ends tonight.

Exactly!  Michael and everyone else’s opinion of Natalia’s age is irrelevant, if a judge has ordered it to be a certain number.  Right or wrong, it would stand, until modified by that judge or reversed by a higher court.  So, it’s very strange for all that controversy to have simmered for all these years.  
 

 

[SunnyBeBe]

51 minutes ago, One Tough Cookie said:

IIRC, and this is the case you mentioned, I believe the family was in Texas and the father survived but was blinded.  But it could have been totally another case.

Thanks for the case info. I think the one I had recalled was Josh Jenkins in CA. He killed his parents, grandparents and sister!  Truly a deranged teen.  He’s still in prison.  
I’m not familiar with the case you described. I’ll take a look into it, though.  

[Annber03]

16 minutes ago, One Tough Cookie said:

Well, I am two episodes in and have to say that Michael creeps me the fuck out.  Dude, are you trying for an Emmy?  I did feel enormous sympathy for Jacob. I've worked with kids with Asperger/autism and know how well they can do given the right love and encouragement. Jacob seemed to be a lost soul.

I actually laughed at the one bit towards the end of the second segment, when Michael's standing there in the living room with Jacob, getting all teary-eyed and emotional about how Jacob had reached out to him when he'd tried to contact his kids on Facebook, and how he was like, "This is my dad" when introducing Michael to others, and so on and so forth...

...and meanwhile, Jacob's just standing there with his bowl of popcorn, eyeing Michael, and has this facial expression that just SCREAMS, "...can I just go back down to the basement and eat my popcorn already?" "Are you trying for an Emmy", indeed. 

(I also wonder if there's more to Michael reaching out to his kids beyond simply wanting to repair his relationship with them. Could it be that he was sniffing out who might be easiest for him to manipulate and bring to his side?)

On a significantly lighter note, that popcorn maker did look pretty cool :D. 

[Straycat80]

I started watch this. I’m on episode 2. Very weird story. The way the adoption went was very confusing, what was this couple thinking? No social worker, no lawyer or court procedure? She’s suppose to 6 years old but had pubic hair and periods. The girl definitely had serious mental health issues. The Dad, Michael, is off too, very dramatic and extra.

Where was the Mom, did she not want to be involved in this doc? And the younger two sons? The oldest son is Autistic and a genius right? Why does it looks like he lives in a basement? So many questions, but I’ll keep watching to see how this ends. 

[libgirl2]

27 minutes ago, Straycat80 said:

I started watch this. I’m on episode 2. Very weird story. The way the adoption went was very confusing, what was this couple thinking? No social worker, no lawyer or court procedure? She’s suppose to 6 years old but had pubic hair and periods. The girl definitely had serious mental health issues. The Dad, Michael, is off too, very dramatic and extra.

Where was the Mom, did she not want to be involved in this doc? And the younger two sons? The oldest son is Autistic and a genius right? Why does it looks like he lives in a basement? So many questions, but I’ll keep watching to see how this ends. 

Yes, he is autistic.

[libgirl2]

9 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Yes, he is autistic.

He is probably the most honest out of the lot so far. Lots of guilt, might be why he is where he is.  

[Pi237]

If Kristina is evil, so is Michael because he never stopped any of her abuse until she took the money away. And sex, apparently. He’s really trying to act like the innocent victim here. He already admitted he knew Kristina made Natalia stand against the wall for hours and hours and he just sat in his chair and watched tv like it wasn’t happening. 

[Annber03]

"This woman was a lying, controlling, manipulative woman!"

My, how fast we've gone from "Ten dozen roses to celebrate ten years of marriage!" to....this. 

Also, the "sexual abuse"/"a little addicted to pornography" comments. Um... Yeah. Let's just sit with that for a few minutes. 

[Pi237]

Love that Doctor, “so, we’re not interested in the truth, then?”

[Annber03]

Michael's attorney: "We can't be too expressive on the stand."

Me, looking at Michael: Yeah, good luck with that. 

 

[Pi237]

This is crazy. They ALL know she wasn’t 22, yet everyone has to pretend she was?! That’s sick.  And these people ran a daycare! 

[ALittleShelfish]

@Straycat80 Early in the first episode he does mention he lives in his dad's basement.  

I'm only thru the first episode and I am absolutely blown away at ... everyone here.  I don't remember any of this in the press, so this is the first deep dive I've seen and holy hell I am in for a wild ride, aren't I? 

[Annber03]

His defense attorney has WAY more faith in him than he probably should. "I think once he understands the gravity of the situation..." Have you met Michael? You can definitely sense some of the nervousness among them, though - Michael's just too much of a loose cannon and the prosecution seems determined, even with the judge's ruling about the age stuff. 

Must be a shame for him that cameras weren't allowed in the courtroom. No chance to showboat and play to the camera. 

[Vermicious Knid]

You can also tell age from the fusion of the skull sutures. Or they could do what the Confederation of African Football does to check if players are too old for the Under-17 league with MRI scans.

Quote

 

The MRI scans a player’s wrist, examining the growth plate before grading it from one to six.

Grade six means a player’s growth plate has completely fused to the bone, which typically happens around the age of 18 or 19.

 

Either would be pretty easy to distinguish 8 from 22. 

[Straycat80]

31 minutes ago, ALittleShelfish said:

@Straycat80 Early in the first episode he does mention he lives in his dad's basement.  

I'm only thru the first episode and I am absolutely blown away at ... everyone here.  I don't remember any of this in the press, so this is the first deep dive I've seen and holy hell I am in for a wild ride, aren't I? 

Thanks, I missed that. I’m on episode 4, I never heard about this case either and I’m literally watching this with I’m sure is a WTF look on my face. It’s really an unbelievable wild ride, almost like a made up story but sadly it’s not. And I have (I think) two more episodes to go! 

[babyhouseman]

I didn't know Natalia was on Dr. Phil.

[ALittleShelfish]

Is episode 2 just a recap of episode 1?  I'm watching it thinking "I've already seen all of this, I think?" 

[CSunshine76]

I went into this completely blind of the story. What the hell did I watch?! Firstly, what a disappointing unsatisfying ending!!! I mean, what is the actual truth? As in TRUE?! Natalia, the Mom, the Dad; they all have issues and I don’t believe a one of them was truthful. It’s baffling really.

To me, what rang most truthful were the stories from the apartment neighbors. Natalia obviously terrorized those people.  Also, one of the biggest losers of this saga (caused by his parents)? The oldest son who was clearly in a genius path (Graduate School at 14!) and now lives in his father’s basement, and apparently, has severely regressed.

Edited June 1, 2023 by CSunshine76

[borealis]

1 hour ago, ALittleShelfish said:

Is episode 2 just a recap of episode 1?  I'm watching it thinking "I've already seen all of this, I think?

Yeah, don't bother with the 1-hour episodes. They've split up the 2-hour eps & renumbered them BACKWARDS.

First 2-hr episode: Part 1

Then 1-hr episode: Part 2 = first half of Part 1, that you've already watched. 

They number it as Part 2 to make it look new, but it's not. It's the FIRST hour of the original, two-hour Part 1. (And they do that with the entire series.)

I think they do this for ratings & DVR purposes.

 

 

[For Cereals]

I think episodes 1 & 2 were shown together.

Now I’m angry.  I felt better after hearing the juror say their hands were tied, but I’m pissed they didn’t get to hear all the evidence.  Way too much screen time was focused on this narcissistic sociopath, which maybe production was trying to show him for what he is. I also don’t know how he has people supporting him.  I can only hope karma gets him. It usually catches up to people like him and we will see him back on ID.  think he’s just as guilty as Kristine who I guess also won’t be punished.

Who is presiding over these cases?

How is there again no update on Natalia and how she’s doing?

[Andyourlittledog2]

51 minutes ago, CSunshine76 said:

What the hell did I watch?! Firstly, what a disappointing unsatisfying ending!!!

See? This is what happens when you watch something on ID that has more than two parts. Every single time I have watched something on ID with more than two parts I find myself pulled into a poorly edited inflated story of nothing at all in the end. They are never concluded. They are never satisfying. I  told myself never again but Natalia was so weird that I let myself get sucked in again.  Sigh.

As for the episodes: there are six. But ID is showing them in two hour, two episode at a time segments the first time, then the reruns are broken down into the actual one hour episodes. So episode one, first run, is actually one and two. Episode two first run consists of episodes three and four, episode three first run is episode five and six. If you are watching an hour episode one or two etc then you are getting part of the two hour first run episode one or two.  Confused? I think they like it that way.

I can't take much more of Michael's histrionics. Of course whoever produced this focused on him; he is the most dramatic and the most likely to draw viewers into his theatrics. That how these things work on ID when they broadcast a more than two episode deal. Every damn time.