S02.E07: Burial

[Cranberry]

Quote

Sometimes the best therapy is cranking the hits to eleven, so today we’re exploring the hardcore kid-care revival movement, 11 o’clock theatrical birdcore numbers, some late hits of the renovationwave era (call us about a spinoff!), flower duets, and a classic live record. Out in the wilderness, Coach Scott does a great Karl Havoc impression for an unimpressed Misty.

Original air date: May 12, 2023 (streaming) / May 14, 2023 (Showtime)

(The episode descriptions have been wild this year! Grabbing them straight from Showtime.)

[CoachMartinez]

I'm not buying Nat being into Lottie's hippy dippy commune. She was the sanest one of them all in the wilderness. She's working an angle here....I think

And what's up with Forkface Lisa having a dig at Misty? 

[Black Knight]

It was so awesome to have all the adult survivors (that we know of) together at last, and I really enjoyed some of the one-on-one interactions in addition to the big group interactions.

Seeing all the women together in that setting made me feel quite conflicted about the environment Lottie has created, wondering whether it's a good thing or actually a bad thing. Probably the truth is somewhere in the middle. For instance, I do think it's a good thing the women are starting to talk about what happened in the woods, after spending years pretty much avoiding the subject completely. But I had mixed emotions about seeing them actually hanging out around a campfire in a forest - so much like back then. Is that really a good thing for them, or will it cause them to fall back into old, potentially unhealthy, patterns? How much was Tai kissing Van influenced by the nostalgia of the setting, for instance?

The contrast of Lottie's "therapies" for Shauna in past and present was interesting. In the present, Shauna is given an innocent creature to care for. (And, because she's clearly watched the same TV show I have

The Sinner

, she initially assumed she'd have to kill the goat at the end of the day. Heh.) In the past, Lottie let Shauna beat her to a pulp in a scene that was disturbing in itself and doubly disturbing because the show did not have the beating stop at just a few blows like so many shows would.

Side note: In this episode, past Shauna was wearing Jackie's shirt. I don't think I've seen that shirt since S1, since all the girls have been so covered up for the winter weather. But in this ep they made sure to have Shauna's coverings open so that we could see what shirt she has on underneath.

Another interesting contrast was between Misty's fake meltdown with Mari and Akilah vs. her sincere meltdown with Ben. I never would have guessed Misty would end up saving Ben, although I still don't think he's long for this world. She went through every manipulative tactic she could think of to get Ben to step away from the edge, and then she broke down and that sincerity was what got through to him, I think.

Also notable that two of the girls were hoping Crystal would be dead so they could eat her - so another line has been crossed in this episode, edging the group closer to murderous cannibalism - and that Misty was repulsed by that. I'm sure she'd still be ok eating other dead people! I wonder where Crystal's body is.

So Lottie has been out of the sanitarium for about 10 years. Picking that point in time makes sense for the other survivors' reaction to Lottie being out. That means she was in the sanitarium for around 13 years, so I can see where the other survivors just finally assumed Lottie would be in there forever and stopped paying attention. The therapist being revealed to be in Lottie's imagination was great because of the way they did it, first showing the Antler Queen - talking about violence and the hunt, I need to go back and listen to that line again - and then the empty room. Poor Lottie. I'm still sorta suspicious of her, but I also have a lot of sympathy for her now. Simone Kessell has completely won me over. (Also special shoutout to our other casting standout this season, Lauren Ambrose, who is just seamless as the adult counterpart to Liv Hewson.)

[CoachMartinez]

Interesting that those two girls  salivating at the demise of Crystal the Pistol don't make the return flight......be careful what you wish for I guess

[AstridM]

1 hour ago, CoachMartinez said:

I'm not buying Nat being into Lottie's hippy dippy commune. She was the sanest one of them all in the wilderness. She's working an angle here....I think

And what's up with Forkface Lisa having a dig at Misty? 

I sure hope so. They’ve ruined the best character otherwise. It was about time someone punched creepy Lottie, though. 🤣

Edited May 12, 2023 by AstridM

[BingeyKohan]

The modern-day dynamic was interesting as pertains to Lottie just easily re-assimilating into the group. Despite what we've seen privately with some of them processing memories, nobody seemed to have that complicated a dynamic with one another, or be surprised that X could be speaking civilly to Y. I don't fully believe what I'm about to say -- but I almost wonder if the AQ figure is another person they encounter in the woods (not a Yellowjacket, someone who was already there) that they submit to as a sort of psychic 'out' for their more savage behavior, and not one of them (or a rotation of them) as we've believed. i.e. the person who helped Javi, moved Crystal's body, etc. Would also explain why she's Lottie's therapist -- though I know some people interpret that as Lottie talking to Lottie.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

3 hours ago, CoachMartinez said:

I'm not buying Nat being into Lottie's hippy dippy commune. She was the sanest one of them all in the wilderness. She's working an angle here....I think

Agreed. She's either trying to find out what really happened to Travis and why and/or to get revenge.

2 hours ago, Black Knight said:

I wonder where Crystal's body is.

I was thinking that an animal may have dragged it off.

2 hours ago, Black Knight said:

In the past, Lottie let Shauna beat her to a pulp in a scene that was disturbing in itself and doubly disturbing because the show did not have the beating stop at just a few blows like so many shows would.

The most disturbing part of that to me was that everyone else just watched it and no one stepped in to stop it. I'm sure I was supposed to be disturbed by that but it also goes to show how much of a hold Lottie has over everyone.

 

That voice message that Misty left Walter was really awkward at the end. "You hang up, no you hang up!" *Maniacal laughter*. Plus everything inside of Misty's head was a trip including a human version of Caligula!

I LOLed at Jeff's phone call at the end when he was trying to talk in code but it was so obvious what he was talking about. Next time use a burner phone, Jeff.

Edited May 12, 2023 by DoubleUTeeEff
too many commas

[Black Knight]

15 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

The most disturbing part of that to me was that everyone else just watched it and no one stepped in to stop it. I'm sure I was supposed to be disturbed by that but it also goes to show how much of a hold Lottie has over everyone.

Lottie...or Shauna? I felt the girls' being frozen had more to do with Shauna than with Lottie. Tai especially had a "I hate this, but I think Shauna needs this outlet" look on her face. And Natalie is pretty much the ultimate anti-Lottie person in the cabin and she didn't step in.

The Autostraddle recapper mentioned something amazing, that the phone number at Lottie's compound is a real number you can call. It's 607-478-1033 - have fun!

[blixie]

This was meandering but very enjoyable episode seeing the adult women able to reconnect and really cut loose was lovely, and I'm sorry Van but I wanted to know what Misty was gonna say. I love that her big realization in the tank, just made her more confident in her tendencies, "Your grandmother sounds great!" John Cameron Mitchell as musical theater Caligula was fantastic,  a bird named after a historical psycho giving her the validation she needed. Ricci so expertly mimicked Samantha Hanratty's nervous award laughter/mannerisms with the you hang up exchange.

I definitely think Nat thinks she's faking, but that in her mission to stop Lottie from whatever, she is buying in a little bit. 

Quote

 She went through every manipulative tactic she could think of to get Ben to step away from the edge, and then she broke down and that sincerity was what got through to him, I think.

I mean I believe she sincerely wanted to stop him/save him, but that her using threats only reminded him of all that he lost, and that she is you know amoral, but her legitimate breakdown reminded she is kid in horrible situation (even though we know its of her own making) and that they do need him for guidance at least.

Boo to the Adam storyline turning back up just let it die. Heh.

I'm not sure what to make of the beating character wise, for either Lottie or Shauna, but it obviously is another big sign the girls are losing their tethers to humanity and rules of regular society.

 

Quote

"I hate this, but I think Shauna needs this outlet" 

Post beating Shauna though read to me as if it hadn't actually released anything, instead has just switched her emotions to off. I think it was absolutely not the thing she needed.

Edited May 12, 2023 by blixie

[Black Knight]

7 minutes ago, blixie said:

I definitely think Nat thinks she's faking, but that in her mission to stop Lottie from whatever, she is buying in a little bit. 

Natalie may have the same conflicted emotions I do about the entire set-up. They all do need therapy, and so they're going to benefit at least a little. But there are also lots of ways for it to all go wrong, too. After all, just look at Misty's therapy, in which she expresses a bit of worry about being a bad person/murderer, and comes out of it totally reassured that there's nothing wrong with her at all.

7 minutes ago, blixie said:

Post beating Shauna though read to me as if it hadn't actually released anything, instead has just switched her emotions to off. I think it was absolutely not the thing she needed.

Most likely not. It's very in keeping with the childbirth sequences in the last episode: These teenage girls are not trained professionals at anything. It makes sense that they're as out of their depth in what to do about Shauna's emotional and psychological trauma as they were about her labor.

[Colorado David]

how friggin weird is it that i youtube'd 'wig in a box' before this episode??? i lost it when i saw JCM in this epi. and please watch hedwig if you havent seen it, great stuff. and fun tunes.

omg ok i do not see a beatdown like that ever again, friggin martyrs territory here. and i am sorry what warranted that???

 

[MBayGal]

Random thoughts:  I really disliked Misty's musical hallucination or whatever you want to call it. WTF?!!!  I was glad Misty stopped the coach from killing himself, but doubt that he will survive much longer.  I also find it hard to believe that Nat is truly buying into Lottie's program, but don't know why she is acting like she does.  Shauna burying her baby under the rocks broke my heart. I am not much of a fan of most of the present-day story.

Like I said, random....

[Anela]

I couldn't watch Shauna beat Lottie. I know she survived, obviously, but no. 

I wonder why they didn't find Kristen/Crystal. 

I'm glad Misty managed to get Coach to not jump, she is just a kid, even if she's so very strange. 

I'm surprised at Nat being so culty, suddenly. I'm not sure that I buy it, either, but I'm glad that she refused the booze. 

Van is dying. Some people predicted that, it's so sad. They also predicted the new therapist being a hallucination. I know she thinks they're all there for a reason, but Nat and Misty are there specifically because she was stalking Nat, and kidnapped her. Misty is there, because she tracked her down with Walter. I can't remember how Tai and Van got there, and it was just last week. I've blanked. Shauna is there, because they called her. 

I'm surprised that Misty wasn't more careful with the remains, but they had to find Adam. Or parts of him. 

The sensory deprivation tank only showed Misty that she was in love with Walter? And that he likely is with her? 

Poor Shauna, and her daughter. I'm very glad they didn't kill the goat. Subverting expectations on at least one thing. 

The preview - 

Spoiler

They need food, and it can't be Lottie, according to one of them. The picking of cards, that was predicted. Mari freaking out. 

 

[Anela]

My first thought was that an animal dragged Crystal away, too. 

The beating was like Lottie's present-day therapy, telling Lisa to stab Natalie (or assault her, I can't remember - hurt her, if she wanted to). Couldn't someone sue over that, or do they literally sign all rights away, as well? I suppose most people would back off, but Shauna had nothing left to lose. 

 

 

[AstridM]

1 hour ago, Colorado David said:

how friggin weird is it that i youtube'd 'wig in a box' before this episode??? i lost it when i saw JCM in this epi. and please watch hedwig if you havent seen it, great stuff. and fun tunes.

omg ok i do not see a beatdown like that ever again, friggin martyrs territory here. and i am sorry what warranted that???

 

Well, Lottie is truly annoying. 🤣🤣🤣

[Black Knight]

42 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

I really disliked Misty's musical hallucination or whatever you want to call it. WTF?!!!

I liked it, partly because it echoed Twin Peaks' Red Room. The opening credits had a shot of Misty standing in front of red curtains, but I wasn't sure if it would be part of a dream or if she would be at a performance of something. I was thrilled when it turned out to be along the lines of the former since the Red Room wasn't in physical reality either.

18 minutes ago, Anela said:

Van is dying. Some people predicted that, it's so sad.

I'm hopeful. Teen Van pointed out she's survived death multiple times. The question she articulated in that conversation, of why is she still here, may play out in some way now and save her yet again. Hmmm, I wonder if it's any way related to Other Tai's comment that "We're not supposed to be here."

18 minutes ago, Anela said:

I'm surprised that Misty wasn't more careful with the remains, but they had to find Adam. Or parts of him. 

Misty had the head and hands cremated, and knew the other body parts would not be identifiable without them. What she doesn't know, and I'm sure will be furious to find out Shauna didn't think to tell her, is that Adam's torso has that giant tattoo on it.

18 minutes ago, Anela said:

The sensory deprivation tank only showed Misty that she was in love with Walter? And that he likely is with her? 

That was part of it, but the other part - arguably the more important part - was Misty being reassured that she's not a psychopath.

[Anela]

11 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

 

That was part of it, but the other part - arguably the more important part - was Misty being reassured that she's not a psychopath.

She isn't? She's casually killed people. 

[Colorado David]

18 minutes ago, Anela said:

She isn't? She's casually killed people. 

mmkay we need to define casually here...tai's operative was on a job to scoop details, so in my head that is not casual. if someone is stalking me i am hella ya gonna mess them up, maybe not fetanyl'm them out BUT drawing a line definitely, re some kinda pain.

[Black Knight]

25 minutes ago, Anela said:

She isn't? She's casually killed people. 

She totally is. But her subconscious is telling her she's not. This was the one moment I can recall where we've ever seen Adult Misty express any concerns about herself, and her subconscious brushed all that aside and told her she's a "closer" instead of a murderer. I'm concerned about where she goes from here and how many more dead bodies she'll rack up.

[Anela]

8 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

mmkay we need to define casually here...tai's operative was on a job to scoop details, so in my head that is not casual. if someone is stalking me i am hella ya gonna mess them up, maybe not fetanyl'm them out BUT drawing a line definitely, re some kinda pain.

She had her locked up in her basement, and then killed her through cigarettes. That isn't self-defense. 

I wonder what her reaction would be, if she found out that Tai had her stalking them.

[Colorado David]

good point. tho creative means to off someone doesn't equate to casual for me. i guess in my head casual means you don't know the person and are just offing them for the thrill, rather than having a reason. in this case the gal was digging in places she should not dig, therefore misty saw the threat and eliminated it. it wasnt arbitrary. or maybe i am off in my thinking?

[Anela]

8 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

good point. tho creative means to off someone doesn't equate to casual for me. i guess in my head casual means you don't know the person and are just offing them for the thrill, rather than having a reason. in this case the gal was digging in places she should not dig, therefore misty saw the threat and eliminated it. it wasnt arbitrary. or maybe i am off in my thinking?

I see what you mean. :) 

[peachmangosteen]

Next season I think I’m going to wait until it’s over and binge it because the pacing is just too slow for me. 

Shauna beating Lottie unconscious, then being genuinely concerned Lottie was dead, and then rolling her eyes when Lottie breathed was sort of hilarious to me.

I miss teen Natalie.

I was so glad Ben didn’t kill himself. I would have hated that.

Akilah is slowly becoming a fave so I am now kind of hoping she somehow survived to adulthood even though it’s already sort of ridiculous so many of them did.

If they don’t reveal what’s up with Javi this season I’m going to lose it. So annoying. Originally I thought the ‘she’ he meant was Dark Tai but the look he gave Lottie in this ep had me thinking it was her. I’m still not sure whether he meant she told him not to come back to the cabin or to wherever he was hiding though. If it’s Lottie it wouldn’t make sense for her to tell him not to come back to the cabin.

Lottie trying to get the women to leave after she realized she’s lost her grip on reality again made me think of how she was really pushed into her God like role in the wilderness rather than pushing it herself. Also, another hallucination, great. Plus all of them saying they don’t really remember stuff from the wilderness. This better not be leading to everything there being a fucking hallucination or something.

[Chaos Theory]

Young Misty really trying to save Coach Ben's life and finally just breaking down about her own pain about not being able to save Shauna's baby was a great moment.    Caligula being Misty's spirit animal was such a fun moment.  The two of them talking in Misty's dream was all kinds of fun.  Plus I like the idea that Misty might actually like Walter since I kinda dig the relationship myself.  

So Lottie is seeing a therapist that isn't there. That is so Lottie.  But it was also a really good moment that shows her grip on reality has always been tenuous at best which makes the fact that she was one of the leaders of the 90s teens and a cult leader incredibly fascinating.  

So Natalie really is buying into the whole wellness thing.  I can understand that since she hasn't had anything to hold onto since they were rescued and cult or not this is the first time in her life she has something that even feels real.  

Another strong Shauna episode.  And young Shauna sure can throw a punch.  

Loved Jeff calling Shauna trying to be all subtle about Adam's body being found

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Chaos Theory

[peachmangosteen]

Oh, I forgot to mention my 2 fave parts: Jeff’s phone call to Shauna and the adult women dancing together.

And speaking of the former, they better not kill Jeff.

[Black Knight]

3 hours ago, Anela said:

She had her locked up in her basement, and then killed her through cigarettes. That isn't self-defense. 

I wonder what her reaction would be, if she found out that Tai had her stalking them.

Misty does know that Jessica was working for Tai. That's knowledge she's chosen to keep to herself for the time being. Tai was shown earlier this season trying to call Jessica, so I assume it's going to come back up at some point.

When Paul said, "We all love you, Ben," that reminded me of Dream Shauna saying it to Dream Jackie in Jackie's death episode. "We all love you, [Person]" is not a good thing to hear out in those woods. I assumed he was a goner, and was really surprised that Misty chose to save him. I expected her to eavesdrop quietly as he threw himself off the cliff, instead of making herself known to him. Maybe, as much as his rejection hurt her, she could also deal with it better because his being gay meant that she could tell herself his rejection wasn't personal.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, CoachMartinez said:

I'm not buying Nat being into Lottie's hippy dippy commune. She was the sanest one of them all in the wilderness. She's working an angle here....I think

It does seem like too much of a switch and I'm not sure where it came from exactly, despite what we've seen. Not that she buys into stuff, but her whole culty demeanor.

Lisa seems to be a little sulky to all of Charlotte's actual friends. This is, after all, the woman who has to run and make her smoothies.

10 hours ago, Black Knight said:

TSide note: In this episode, past Shauna was wearing Jackie's shirt. I don't think I've seen that shirt since S1, since all the girls have been so covered up for the winter weather. But in this ep they made sure to have Shauna's coverings open so that we could see what shirt she has on underneath.

Definitely noticed that costume choice too.

 

7 hours ago, blixie said:

I mean I believe she sincerely wanted to stop him/save him, but that her using threats only reminded him of all that he lost, and that she is you know amoral, but her legitimate breakdown reminded she is kid in horrible situation (even though we know its of her own making) and that they do need him for guidance at least.

Interesting that Paul was telling him he basically needed to stop hiding in his fantasies and Ben's response was to hide further. I thought the point Paul was making was that he needed to step up and be involved with the survivors.

Unfair the way people were accusing Misty of not looking for Crystal as if it's not we're they're not looking for her either! At least the Varsity Squad looks after its own.

7 hours ago, blixie said:

I'm not sure what to make of the beating character wise, for either Lottie or Shauna, but it obviously is another big sign the girls are losing their tethers to humanity and rules of regular society.

It's sort of a pet peeve of mine that they keep injuring themselves when they know the only medical attention they have is Misty and Akilah!

7 hours ago, blixie said:

Post beating Shauna though read to me as if it hadn't actually released anything, instead has just switched her emotions to off. I think it was absolutely not the thing she needed.

Yes, looks like she got her anger out only to realize that's all she had.

4 hours ago, Anela said:

Van is dying. Some people predicted that, it's so sad. They also predicted the new therapist being a hallucination. I know she thinks they're all there for a reason, but Nat and Misty are there specifically because she was stalking Nat, and kidnapped her. Misty is there, because she tracked her down with Walter. I can't remember how Tai and Van got there, and it was just last week. I've blanked. Shauna is there, because they called her. 

Yeah, it's a good parallel to the supernatural or not stuff. She's acting like it's weird they've showed up when she brought Nat, who was followed by Misty, who called Tai, who brought Van and called Shauna.

4 hours ago, Black Knight said:

I'm hopeful. Teen Van pointed out she's survived death multiple times. The question she articulated in that conversation, of why is she still here, may play out in some way now and save her yet again. Hmmm, I wonder if it's any way related to Other Tai's comment that "We're not supposed to be here."

Her cancer definitely seemed more important when Lottie connected it to her repression possibly creating the disease. 

4 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Misty had the head and hands cremated, and knew the other body parts would not be identifiable without them. What she doesn't know, and I'm sure will be furious to find out Shauna didn't think to tell her, is that Adam's torso has that giant tattoo on it.

Seems like Misty should have either noticed it or asked about obvious identifying marks herself.

4 hours ago, Black Knight said:

That was part of it, but the other part - arguably the more important part - was Misty being reassured that she's not a psychopath.

I thought it was less about her not being a psychopath and more about her being loveable potentially. Walter obviously could. And was Misty admitting to Adam's murder on the phone to Walter?

3 hours ago, Anela said:

I wonder what her reaction would be, if she found out that Tai had her stalking them.

None at all--she didn't care when Jessica told her.

31 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

When Paul said, "We all love you, Ben," that reminded me of Dream Shauna saying it to Dream Jackie in Jackie's death episode. "We all love you, [Person]" is not a good thing to hear out in those woods. I assumed he was a goner, and was really surprised that Misty chose to save him. I expected her to eavesdrop quietly as he threw himself off the cliff, instead of making herself known to him. Maybe, as much as his rejection hurt her, she could also deal with it better because his being gay meant that she could tell herself his rejection wasn't personal.

Maybe also that she's gotten over her crush because it wasn't real? I'm just thinking how some had a theory that Crystal was never real. Didn't ever make sense to me or fit with the show, but one of the reasons it seemed like a bad idea was it suggested the Crystal story was the same as we saw...only it didn't really happen. Her being imaginary didn't serve any purpose like Shauna's dream of the baby or Travis thinking he's found dead Javi. It just made Crystal ultimately less important.

[Anela]

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

 

If they don’t reveal what’s up with Javi this season I’m going to lose it. So annoying. Originally I thought the ‘she’ he meant was Dark Tai but the look he gave Lottie in this ep had me thinking it was her. I’m still not sure whether he meant she told him not to come back to the cabin or to wherever he was hiding though. If it’s Lottie it wouldn’t make sense for her to tell him not to come back to the cabin.

 

I wondered if she'd told him to stay away, so that they would think she intuitively knew he was okay, but I'm firmly on Team Rational, right now. 

I can't believe how much I've forgotten already. I know I've had a lot going on, but I cannot remember Jessica telling Misty that Tai hired her, and I watched it all again in December. 

[AstridM]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

So Natalie really is buying into the whole wellness thing.

I think she’s playing the long game to expose Lottie. 

[blixie]

Quote

mmkay we need to define casually here

I think our introduction to her was her denying pain meds to a patient (I can't remember if she died), so at the least, she is a casual sadist. But also technically Jessica is the only body and even there we don't know for absolute sure Jessica is dead. I would argue she is at least partly responsible for all the post crash deaths though since she smashed the box though so like girl is absolutely in the sociopath territory. But she's such a cheerful and efficient sociopath I gotta love her, Misty is a goddamn great and complex character. 

I love the show but the Hide the Javi shit needs to stop (I get you don't want to draw attention to the fact he grew 2 feet in two months but again RECAST for crissakes). Why even reveal he is alive at all if you refuse to explicate it. 

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, blixie said:

I think our introduction to her was her denying pain meds to a patient (I can't remember if she died), so at the least, she is a casual sadist.

I believe that was Gloria, the woman who was eventually buried with Adam's head and hands. So she died, but not because of Misty, it seems.

19 minutes ago, blixie said:

 

But also technically Jessica is the only body and even there we don't know for absolute sure Jessica is dead.

I think her death is supposed to be straightforward, but it's true we haven't heard about anybody finding the body. Tai was trying to call her earlier in the season. But I think she's meant to be dead.

19 minutes ago, blixie said:

 

I would argue she is at least partly responsible for all the post crash deaths though since she smashed the box though so like girl is absolutely in the sociopath territory. But she's such a cheerful and efficient sociopath I gotta love her, Misty is a goddamn great and complex character. 

I think people have explained that black boxes don't really work that way so Misty didn't really destroy their chances of being rescued...but that doesn't really matter since she certainly thinks she did. Also, a human probably couldn't have destroyed one of those things anyway, but she did, so perhaps it was supposed to work that way.

Re: Javi, it is bizarre that he's just back now with no explanation, but I guess if he's not talking they're waiting for the answer too. I think there are real life examples of kids getting lost in the woods and then being found with no memory of what happened so maybe they're going for that? Who knows! But I don't think it's got anything to do with hiding how much he's grown. If that was enough of an issue to derail the story they'd have recast, so I think they're just planning to deal with it later.

[Chaos Theory]

re: Javi.

It’s  been two episodes not six and like it or not the show has had other things they had to deal with as well.  You  can only hold off Shauna pregnancy for so long.  And her pain after losing the baby is an important immediate soul crushing thing that needs to be dealt with and so does Coach Ben’s  mental illness.  Javi being back can be pushed back with a throw away line.   “Yeah hey he still hasn’t spoken, weird.”  .It will more then likely be one of the next big 90’s storylines but it isn’t something that needs to be rushed because if I am reading it right it will likely bleed into the groups next big step into cannibalism.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Chaos Theory

[peachmangosteen]

11 hours ago, Anela said:

I can't believe how much I've forgotten already. I know I've had a lot going on, but I cannot remember Jessica telling Misty that Tai hired her, and I watched it all again in December. 

I've forgotten a lot, too. I don't remember that or Jeff revealing he sent the postcards, which a lot of people seem to think happened. I also don't remember Travis hallucinating that he found Javi's dead body either lol.

39 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

It will more then likely be one of the next big 90’s storylines but it isn’t something that needs to be rushed because if I am reading it right it will likely bleed into the groups next big step into cannibalism.

How are you reading it?

[SeanC]

I like that Lottie's therapies mostly work, except with Misty they 'work' in a way that really you shouldn't want them to.
 

[Chaos Theory]

On 5/13/2023 at 8:32 AM, Chaos Theory said:

 Javi being back can be pushed back with a throw away line.   “Yeah hey he still hasn’t spoken, weird.”  .It will more then likely be one of the next big 90’s storylines but it isn’t something that needs to be rushed because if I am reading it right it will likely bleed into the groups next big step into cannibalism.

 

On 5/13/2023 at 9:12 AM, peachmangosteen said:

How are you reading it?

This is just wild speculation but one of the reasons I love the show as much as I do is because even when it doesn't go the way I think it will SO FAR it makes sense to me.  I don't think it is supernatural.  I think that everything can be explained by trauma, mental illness and even coincidence.    Nat has been building a makeshift map but Travis has been more concerned about looking for Havi and it was the middle of a hard winter so it is possible they missed something or that the map isn't as detailed as they think it is.   Javi also ran during the last days of falls so likely made it to edge of where the map details and might have found someone who "rescued him".   When he does talk he tells the group who misinterprets being saved for being kidnapped.   Because they are all so deeply traumatized....and hungry it wouldn't be hard for the group to decide to get revenge for Javi and for Travis not realizing he may never have needed or wanted it.   Plus it would be all the more tragic if somehow they leave behind or burn down this dangerous strangers food supply because they are so angry at him.  

And what I mean by next step in cannibalism is that right now they are basically scavengers.   Like vultures.  They haven't killed anyone they just have eaten the flesh of someone already dead.   The next step for them would be hunting.    And hunting a stranger....someone they view as a threat would be a step to where we saw them in the first moments of the pilot.

But that is just my theory.    

Edited May 14, 2023 by Chaos Theory

[peachmangosteen]

So, you think there's someone else out there that found Javi? 

[AstridM]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think there are real life examples of kids getting lost in the woods and then being found with no memory of what happened so maybe they're going for that?

Yes, there are. He appears to be selectively mute, which is not unexpected in such a situation. 

[WaltersHair]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

re: Javi.

It’s  been two episodes not six and like it or not the show has had other things they had to deal with as well.  You  can only hold off Shauna pregnancy for so long.  And her pain after losing the baby is an important immediate soul crushing thing that needs to be dealt with and so does Coach Ben’s  mental illness.  Javi being back can be pushed back with a throw away line. 

I might buy this if the opening scene of the new episode wasn't all of them just sitting around waiting for the snow to stop. Maybe fill those hours with some Javi. I know there are a number of storylines being juggled, but the Javi story is important, IMHO.

I've held off reacting to this episode because I was like HELL NO to the Caligula scene. I know it's a tricky idea to pull off and you either get it or you don't. I just didn't.

Misty saving Coach was actually the most positive thing we've seen her do. Not selfless, but positive.

[Anela]

I’m thinking about watching “Lost” again.  I started a re-watch, two years ago, but didn’t get very far, because I’m me.  Comments I’ve seen about Lottie’s face after that beating, reminded me of my own, when the men kept beating each other up in Lost. 

[AstridM]

4 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

I might buy this if the opening scene of the new episode wasn't all of them just sitting around waiting for the snow to stop. Maybe fill those hours with some Javi. I know there are a number of storylines being juggled, but the Javi story is important, IMHO.

I've held off reacting to this episode because I was like HELL NO to the Caligula scene. I know it's a tricky idea to pull off and you either get it or you don't. I just didn't.

Misty saving Coach was actually the most positive thing we've seen her do. Not selfless, but positive.

IDK - John Cameron Mitchell as Caligula was absolute genius. 

[BitterApple]

I don't know if anyone else caught this, but when Misty was trying to talk Coach Scott down from the ledge, she said "I tried so hard to keep the baby alive." Does this mean Shauna didn't have a stillbirth? I wonder if Shauna's dream of the girls eating the baby was the moment he actually died? 

On first watch I hated the Caligula scene, but on second watch I loved it. Weird how that happens. 

Van being terminal is confirmed. Damn. 

I was laughing at young Van and Tai setting up the stew pot outside after they'd cleared the snow. What are y'all cooking in that thing? Tree bark? There can't be any bear or bird meat left. 

The last scene was brutal. I agree that Lottie's intentions may have been good, but offering herself up as a punching bag had the opposite effect. It unleashed Shauna's penchant for violence rather than moved her through a stage of grief. 

[Black Knight]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I don't know if anyone else caught this, but when Misty was trying to talk Coach Scott down from the ledge, she said "I tried so hard to keep the baby alive." Does this mean Shauna didn't have a stillbirth?

Interesting thought. In the moment, I just read it as a teenage girl who has no experience with labor stating things poorly. After all, none of the girls seemed to recognize what Shauna delivering the placenta first, with no baby attached, meant. Misty may well have thought that the baby was alive when he came out of Shauna. I feel like on TV especially we're often given a sequence where the baby's not crying and then the doctor or nurse spanks the baby and the baby starts crying and everyone's relieved the baby's not dead, so Misty may have been working off such representations. I know she said she took the Red Cross's babysitting course twice, but I'm pretty sure that course doesn't include anything to do with childbirth.

7 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

I might buy this if the opening scene of the new episode wasn't all of them just sitting around waiting for the snow to stop.

I don't think the opening scene is that simple. The last thing we saw before this episode was Shauna screaming to everyone in the cabin, and the viewers, if we/they could hear her son crying. It's very natural that coming back from the two-week break, the show started with a picture of how everyone was reacting in the aftermath of that. I honestly don't know how the show would go from that last scene in the previous episode to the start of this episode without having such a scene. It's very necessary for character reasons. And it was only about a minute. There wouldn't really have been any progress on the Javi storyline if that minute had been given to him instead. "Why don't you talk?" [silence] "Talk!" [silence] That's just a waste of screentime. I'm happy to accept that everyone has decided to give Javi some space while they're busy with the drama of Shauna's baby. The only one he's really important to is his brother. (And Shauna to a degree, but she's completely overwhelmed with what's going on with her.)

[Baltimore Betty]

19 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

might buy this if the opening scene of the new episode wasn't all of them just sitting around waiting for the snow to stop. Maybe fill those hours with some Javi.

My take was they are on empty, their stomachs are empty, their mental states and emotions are running on empty, they are all but giving up on hope and I guess stuck inside for days if not weeks...they literally have nothing going on in their heads at all, everyday is the same (except for the ill fated birth), the only adult in the room is withdrawn and no help at all.  

My thought about Coach, he stood on the ledge thinking he would jump but I thought what if he does not succeed in killing himself and just injures himself really badly and the girls have to take care of him, he will feel even more useless, that might have crossed his mind when Misty begged him not to jump.

I loved the musical number, JCM is always strange and wonderful, he was the perfect choice to play Caligula. 

[Daltrey]

On 5/12/2023 at 11:17 AM, Colorado David said:

i lost it when i saw JCM in this epi. and please watch hedwig if you havent seen it, great stuff. and fun tunes.

I second this, Hedwig and the Angry Inch should be required viewing! That scene  was icing on the cake and totally made the episode for me, right up to and including Misty's call to Walter. It wasn't, but everything else could've been terrible and I wouldn't care. 

Shauna's beating on Lottie wasn't necessarily disturbing to me...well I guess it was but in more of a visceral, enthralling, can't look away from the car crash sort of way. 

Teen Misty's entire arc this episode was perfectly amazing from conniving to cover her tracks to trying to manipulate coach Ben and finally breaking down as honestly possible in pleading with him not to jump was fantastic. Samantha Hanratty continues to be brilliant, following on from the first I saw her in later season role on shameless. I think she's skilled way beyond her years and deserves whatever accolades may come her way.

[Shorty186]

Was that Alanis singing the opening again? I missed it in ep 4 since I tend to skip the song to get to the episode but I watched it this time and was so surprised. I had no idea the title song was original for the show and not a 90s song, so I first thought, did they get the original artist to re-record the song now and that's how she sounds 30 years later? Then I read Alanis covered it for episode 4 and now this sounds like it could be her. But enough about the music.

I just binge-watched all 7 episodes this weekend. So happy it skipped the sophomore slump and so glad this season has been answering the big questions from last season and not stringing us along. 

What I took from the beating scene is that a lot of the girls looked envious of Shauna. Tai was the only one looking away and Nat looked a cross between horrified and disgusted, but the background girls and even Van looked like they wanted to get in on the action. A part of me thought they were going to just turn and punch the girl standing next to them. What was it about that song that made Shauna punch Misty? Was that the song in her dream? Anyway, it made me realize that practically everyone else has been unable to express their anger and sadness of the situation and that when they watched Shauna beating Lottie, they got the urge to take out their emotions physically as well. Which is what I think will lead to the group's active cannibalism in the future (choosing to kill someone for the purpose of eating them as opposed to eating someone who's already dead).

Not sure if we will ever learn what fully happened to Javi because this episode made me think that the group is going to kill him. Since last season I wondered what lead Nat to spiral into drugs and alcohol in adulthood because like a lot have said, she seemed to be one of the most together in the past. So ultimately, I think she must get into drugs because Travis does, after seeing that flashback of them getting high together. I feel like Travis would get into it first and Nat would try to help him, but Travis would ultimately be like, "the only thing you can do for me is be here with me as I am, or leave." And Nat would make that choice. But what would cause Travis to spiral? The fact that he ate his brother. I don't think he'd have any part in killing him and would most likely be trying to save him, but the girls will kill him, Travis will be starving to death, and maybe even Nat begs him to do it, because she wants him to live, but ultimately that act is what will break him and lead him into drugs when he gets back home. And maybe the guilt that Natalie feels is another reason why she chooses to spiral with him. 

[peachmangosteen]

2 hours ago, Shorty186 said:

Was that the song in her dream? 

Yes.

Quote

Not sure if we will ever learn what fully happened to Javi because this episode made me think that the group is going to kill him. Since last season I wondered what lead Nat to spiral into drugs and alcohol in adulthood because like a lot have said, she seemed to be one of the most together in the past. So ultimately, I think she must get into drugs because Travis does, after seeing that flashback of them getting high together. I feel like Travis would get into it first and Nat would try to help him, but Travis would ultimately be like, "the only thing you can do for me is be here with me as I am, or leave." And Nat would make that choice. But what would cause Travis to spiral? The fact that he ate his brother. I don't think he'd have any part in killing him and would most likely be trying to save him, but the girls will kill him, Travis will be starving to death, and maybe even Nat begs him to do it, because she wants him to live, but ultimately that act is what will break him and lead him into drugs when he gets back home. And maybe the guilt that Natalie feels is another reason why she chooses to spiral with him. 

Fucking hell that is dark.

[CoachMartinez]

Shorty186-

I think it might have been the whole "her placenta falls to the floor" part of the song that set Shauna in motion

[Shorty186]

2 hours ago, CoachMartinez said:

Shorty186-

I think it might have been the whole "her placenta falls to the floor" part of the song that set Shauna in motion

What??? I did not hear that in the lyrics. Sorry @peachmangosteen sometimes my imagination gets the best of me. Although, this show is pretty fucking dark. Ashley and Bart must have a fun marriage.

[Trillian]

On 5/13/2023 at 8:11 PM, Black Knight said:

I know she said she took the Red Cross's babysitting course twice, but I'm pretty sure that course doesn't include anything to do with childbirth

No, it doesn’t. But, in the 70s anyway, there was a section of the training book that did include a section on emergency childbirth, even though it wasn’t taught in the class. How do I know?  Because I was the weird teenager who studied up on that in case I ever had to do it.  I was always mildly disappointed that I never got to use what I learned.  Wouldn’t be surprised if Misty also had that rudimentary knowledge.  

[Demian]

On 5/12/2023 at 12:37 PM, Black Knight said:

the phone number at Lottie's compound is a real number you can call. It's 607-478-1033 - have fun!

Ha!  The 478 exchange is in Andover, New York, which is just two hours north of where I live.  Maybe I can swing by the compound tomorrow and paint a barn with a makeup brush.

Also:  "High-calorie butt meat."  Hee!

Edited May 15, 2023 by Demian