Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[Milburn Stone]

13 hours ago, isalicat said:

I visited Frank Zappa's home in Laurel Canyon in the early 1980s and that was long after us valley girls did our thing. By the way, he had a very cool old school bowling alley in the basement of his house and weirder yet, an entire bank vault that he had purchased and had moved in. He let an all girl band live in the vault for some time (they were gone by the time I visited and I don't remember what they were called).

Mrs. Stone and I once did our own self-guided stalking tour of rock star Laurel Canyon homes, and Zappa's was one of them. (The Tudor-style place.) Does that count? :)

[Brookside]

I do a daily jigsaw on my phone.  It has a sliding scale thingy to change the number of pieces you want.  Every day I am inordinately annoyed when it asks whether I want less pieces or more.

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, Brookside said:

I do a daily jigsaw on my phone.  It has a sliding scale thingy to change the number of pieces you want.  Every day I am inordinately annoyed when it asks whether I want less pieces or more.

I agree. This would be a dealbreaker for me!

[dalek]

I was watching a Rizzoli & Isles rerun, and everyone was repeatedly talking about how the murder victim was strangled and then hung.  and I kept screaming at the tv "hanged! people are hanged; pictures are hung."

[SVNBob]

1 hour ago, dalek said:

"hanged! people are hanged; pictures are hung."

Some people can be both....

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, dalek said:

I was watching a Rizzoli & Isles rerun, and everyone was repeatedly talking about how the murder victim was strangled and then hung.  and I kept screaming at the tv "hanged! people are hanged; pictures are hung."

5 hours ago, SVNBob said:

Some people can be both....

That’s what I was picturing——since it was on Rizzoli & Isles. Perhaps at the crime scenes the  victims had been strangled with belts that were  then nailed to walls after which picture frames were placed around their heads. Then Maura would launch into a discourse on both grammar and irony and the visuals of the victims having been both hung and hanged. The killers’ mothers would have all been sticklers for good grammar. 

[Milburn Stone]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Perhaps at the crime scenes the victims had been strangled with belts that were  then nailed to walls after which picture frames were placed around their heads. 

What a clean mind you have!

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

What a clean mind you have!

Tidy. That’s me. 

[Zella]

21 hours ago, SVNBob said:

Some people can be both....

I'll never forget my Comp I teacher telling us "Pictures are hung, and people are hanged" before she started laughing like a 12-year-old schoolboy and added, "But some people are hung too." That's where my mind goes anytime someone announces that a person's been hung. . . . 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Zella

[Silver Raven]

11 minutes ago, Zella said:

I'll never forget my Comp I teacher telling us "Pictures are hung, and people are hanged" before she started laughing like a 12-year-old schoolboy and added, "But some people are hung too." That's where my mind goes anytime someone announces that a person's been hung. . . . 

My high School English teacher once corrected my use of hung instead of hanging by drawing a little sketch of a person hanging from a noose.

 

[SuprSuprElevated]

16 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

My high School English teacher once corrected my use of hung instead of hanging by drawing a little sketch of a person hanging from a noose.

 

Also the drama teacher?

[Crashcourse]

My ears hurt right now.  I'm watching this show called Jalen and Jacoby on ESPN.  One of the meatheads, Jalen Rose, just pronounced Illinois "Illinoise." 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Crashcourse

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

My ears hurt right now.  I'm watching this show called Jalen and Jacoby on ESPN.  One of the meatheads, Jalen Rose, just pronounced Illinois "Illinoise." 

😒 It's probably just ignorance, but it feels like they do it to annoy us.

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

😒 It's probably just ignorance, but it feels like they do it to annoy us.

I think you mean to Illinois you,  don't you? 

[Milburn Stone]

14 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

I think you mean to Illinois you,  don't you? 

Good one.

Just posting to say I've been hearing the "s" pronounced all my life in addition to hearing the "s" not pronounced. Not defending it at all. But it's not new, even in educated circles. No idea why.

I still occasionally hear Los Angeles pronounced "Los Angle Us" instead of the more common "Los Ann Jell Us." That "angle" pronunciation seems to be older people who enjoy hearkening back to the days of Spanish colonization. 

[legaleagle53]

10 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

GLosood one.

Just posting to say I've been hearing the "s" pronounced all my life in addition to hearing the "s" not pronounced. Not defending it at all. But it's not new, even in educated circles. No idea why.

I still occasionally hear Los Angeles pronounced "Los Angle Us" instead of the more common "Los Ann Jell Us." That "angle" pronunciation seems to be older people who enjoy hearkening back to the days of Spanish colonization. 

If that were really the case, they'd pronounce it "Los AHN-he-les," which is how it's pronounced in Spanish.

[AimingforYoko]

On 1/28/2021 at 11:48 PM, dalek said:

I was watching a Rizzoli & Isles rerun, and everyone was repeatedly talking about how the murder victim was strangled and then hung.  and I kept screaming at the tv "hanged! people are hanged; pictures are hung."

 

On 1/29/2021 at 12:58 AM, SVNBob said:

Some people can be both....

One of my favorite jokes from Blazing Saddles: "Boy, they said you was hung!" "And they was right."

[Milburn Stone]

13 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

If that were really the case, they'd pronounce it "Los AHN-he-les," which is how it's pronounced in Spanish.

Thanks. I don't know Spanish, so I was just guessing.

So, is your theory that the people who say "Angle" are approximating the original Spanish? Because that's really what I was trying to say.

If that's not your theory, then what is your theory as to why they say "Angle"?

Edited February 3, 2021 by Milburn Stone

[ABay]

Topic of webinar: What I wish I would've learned in college.

Would it perhaps be grammar?

I suppose one should be thankful it doesn't say "would of."

Edited February 3, 2021 by ABay

[Zella]

My assumption has always just been the "Angle" pronunciation is old but not necessarily an attempt to be more accurate. In the same way that I'm pretty sure the way my grandparents say Iowa (Eye-uh-way) is old-fashioned but not necessarily them trying to be more authentic. It's just how they think the name is pronounced from a time before you could easily look it up on Google.

Robert Mitchum uses "Angle-us" in his narration of Tombstone, actually. 

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Zella said:

Robert Mitchum uses "Angle-us" in his narration of Tombstone, actually

Huh. Since it’s “Angels” when translated from the Spanish, I assumed those saying the hard G had only seen it written and had neither been there nor heard it pronounced, and neither did they know any Spanish.
I also assume that’s the case with those who vocalize the S in Illinois, but it still bugs the crap out of me ––well, not literally. 
And, of course, with not knowing how to pronounce Illinois, there’s an assumption that they don’t know French. 
A very sweet and somewhat naive young woman I worked with who had been homeschooled in Idaho but then spent a year at Oxford and completed her Masters in Library Science at age 23 surprised me by pronouncing “Italian” as Eye-talian. I’ve always suspected that there were some racist origins to that pronunciation, but in her case, she would not have intended any such thing. 

[Zella]

25 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Huh. Since it’s “Angels” when translated from the Spanish, I assumed those saying the hard G had only seen it written and had neither been there nor heard it pronounced, and neither did they know any Spanish.
I also assume that’s the case with those who vocalize the S in Illinois, but it still bugs the crap out of me ––well, not literally. 
And, of course, with not knowing how to pronounce Illinois, there’s an assumption that they don’t know French. 
A very sweet and somewhat naive young woman I worked with who had been homeschooled in Idaho but then spent a year at Oxford and completed her Masters in Library Science at age 23 surprised me by pronouncing “Italian” as Eye-talian. I’ve always suspected that there were some racist origins to that pronunciation, but in her case, she would not have intended any such thing. 

My older relatives pronounce Italian the same way. I don't think they mean anything by it. They just don't know how to say it. 

I will admit to having some odd pronunciations of my own, despite having a master's degree in English. There are some words I've only seen in print, and my initial attempts at pronunciation were horribly inept. I did that in front of my graduate advisor once, which was horrible embarrassing, but he very graciously told me that I clearly knew what the word meant but just didn't know how to say it, which told him that I'd read it somewhere but never heard it pronounced. I always thought that was very sweet of him the way he went about correcting it without making me feel bad.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Zella

[Milburn Stone]

4 hours ago, Zella said:

Robert Mitchum uses "Angle-us" in his narration of Tombstone, actually. 

OK, somebody had to finally look it up, so I did.

http://www.laalmanac.com/geography/ge13c.php

Turns out my (educated) guess was right as to the Angle pronunciation. While not being exactly how Spanish speakers would say the city's name, it is a Gringo's attempt to say it as a Spanish speaker would. Back in the early decades of the twentieth century, "Angle" was actually the preferred pronunciation among Los Angeles's white elite, who were a bit closer in time (and closer in touch) with the Spanish/Mexican origins of the city. 

[SuprSuprElevated]

17 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

surprised me by pronouncing “Italian” as Eye-talian. I’ve always suspected that there were some racist origins to that pronunciation, but in her case, she would not have intended any such thing.

My 100% Italian mother-in-law, and her son/my husband pronounce it that way as well.  I have simply shrugged it off for 35 yrs.  I can assure you, there is no racist intent in their case.

Edited February 4, 2021 by SuprSuprElevated

[shapeshifter]

45 minutes ago, SuprSuprElevated said:

My 100% Italian mother-in-law, and her son/my husband pronounce it that way as well.  I have simply shrugged it off for 35 yrs.  I can assure you, there is no racist intent in their case.

Now I think I've been saying it wrong all these decades by using the short "I." 
Is this like "Peking" instead of "Beijing," and if so, exactly how? 
Or maybe I shouldn't worry about it?
A former coworker who is like my fourth daughter once sternly corrected me when I claimed that I "don't see color." I'm glad she did, but maybe there's some other basic stuff I'm missing.

[Milburn Stone]

2 hours ago, SuprSuprElevated said:

My 100% Italian mother-in-law, and her son/my husband pronounce it that way as well.  I have simply shrugged it off for 35 yrs.  I can assure you, there is no racist intent in their case.

At least they don't say Eye-Tralian, which I have also heard. (Although I think with self-aware humorous intent. I hope.)

[SuprSuprElevated]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Or maybe I shouldn't worry about it?

 

[legaleagle53]

On 2/3/2021 at 8:26 AM, Milburn Stone said:

Thanks. I don't know Spanish, so I was just guessing.

So, is your theory that the people who say "Angle" are approximating the original Spanish? Because that's really what I was trying to say.

If that's not your theory, then what is your theory as to why they say "Angle"?

No. G is never pronounced as hard (i.e., as in "girl") before an E or an I in Spanish. It is always pronounced like the H in "horse" before those letters. So their pronouncing it with a hard "G" sound is NOT an approximation of the original Spanish. It's just their ignorance and/or laziness showing.

Edited February 5, 2021 by legaleagle53

[Kromm]

It's probably already in this thread (possibly even by me) but I've been seeing/hearing "casted", a word which apparently technically exists but is still considered wrong in modern use, so often this week it's been driving me buggy.  Actually, this week it's been "recasted", but it's the same issue.

It's come up a lot this week in reference to Wandavision.  A character in the show, in my opinion, uses the correct form of the word "recast" in past tense.  Which is also "recast".  But reading comments about that moment of the show online, and even in video reactions on YouTube... like a quarter of the time I'm seeing people morph what the character said (and meant) to "recasted" instead.

I do realize that wide use makes words legitimate. But it bugs me nonetheless. Various references do admit that "casted" was legit... in the 16th century.  So maybe it is again, due to wide use, and I'm the old fogey here.

[shapeshifter]

14 minutes ago, Kromm said:

...in reference to Wandavision.  A character in the show, in my opinion, uses the correct form of the word "recast" in past tense.  Which is also "recast".  But reading comments about that moment of the show online, and even in video reactions on YouTube... like a quarter of the time I'm seeing people morph what the character said (and meant) to "recasted" instead....Various references do admit that "casted" was legit... in the 16th century.  So maybe it is again, due to wide use, and I'm the old fogey here.

My problem with terms like this (e.g., Shakespeare wrote "axed" for "asked") is that I find myself translating them into the words I was taught to be proper, and then the act of translating serves to label the speaker as "other," which makes me feel judgmental and snooty. 
Looking at "recasted," the "ed" seems to emphasize that an action occurred, and that this is a verb, not an adjective or other descriptor.

[Leeds]

From a T-Mobile commercial: "Every new and current customers can get . . ."

[Milburn Stone]

3 hours ago, Leeds said:

From a T-Mobile commercial: "Every new and current customers can get . . ."

What makes this kind of error so maddening is that it's so easy to fix. You don't need a doctorate in linguistics. You only need to change one word. "All new and current customers can get..."

[topanga]

On 1/27/2021 at 11:21 AM, Brookside said:

I do a daily jigsaw on my phone.  It has a sliding scale thingy to change the number of pieces you want.  Every day I am inordinately annoyed when it asks whether I want less pieces or more.

You’d think someone would oversee and correct that. I’d send an email. 
 

ETA: that also sounds like a cool app. Signing off to open my Apps app...

Edited February 13, 2021 by topanga

[Leeds]

On 1/29/2021 at 8:53 PM, Silver Raven said:

My high School English teacher once corrected my use of hung instead of hanging by drawing a little sketch of a person hanging from a noose.

 

I'm sure the students' parents were pleased that your teacher used that definition of hung.

A friend once told me that her English teacher taught the correct spelling of cemetery by drawing lots of gravestones with just a big "E" on them.

[shapeshifter]

Sorry I'm a day late for a Valentine's Day post --and even sorrier for the way that holiday is punctuated-- but this tweet is from "Dr. Grammar," so:

--but I would have punctuated his poem differently too:

Roses are red,
Violets are blue.
Singular they
Is older than
Singular you.

[Leeds]

Their mother, Lila, who raised them idyllically on a South Carolina sea island, was both the most soothing and the most treacherous parent in the world.

Free virtual drinks to the first person to guess the author of this abomination.

[Milburn Stone]

22 hours ago, Leeds said:

Their mother, Lila, who raised them idyllically on a South Carolina sea island, was both the most soothing and the most treacherous parent in the world.

Free virtual drinks to the first person to guess the author of this abomination.

I'm not going to win, because I don't see what's wrong with it. (And I can't guess who wrote it, except to guess Truman Capote, because it kind of sounds like him and he wrote about the south.)

Edited February 18, 2021 by Milburn Stone

[shapeshifter]

On 2/18/2021 at 4:53 PM, Milburn Stone said:

On 2/17/2021 at 6:48 PM, Leeds said:

Their mother, Lila, who raised them idyllically on a South Carolina sea island, was both the most soothing and the most treacherous parent in the world.

Free virtual drinks to the first person to guess the author of this abomination.

I'm not going to win, because I don't see what's wrong with it. (And I can't guess who wrote it, except to guess Truman Capote, because it kind of sounds like him and he wrote about the south.)

Not guessing, just using my resources.

Spoiler

Maslin, Janet. "Review/Film; 'Prince of Tides' Sidesteps Book's Pitfalls: [Review]." New York Times, Dec 25, 1991.

I'm guessing @Leeds's complaint is the flowery language?
Can I have virtual chocolate instead of drinks? 

ETA: Maybe I should be offering @Leeds free virtual coffee and an aspirin for a hangover?

Edited February 20, 2021 by shapeshifter

[supposebly]

Is it "raising some idyllically" ? instead of raising them on an idyllic South Carolina sea island?

At least, that's what I would have circled on a student paper.

[meowmommy]

16 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I'm guessing @Milburn Stone's complaint is the flowery language?
Can I have virtual chocolate instead of drinks? 

Think it was @Leeds who voiced the complaint.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, meowmommy said:

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I'm guessing @Milburn Stone's complaint is the flowery language?
Can I have virtual chocolate instead of drinks? 

Think it was @Leeds who voiced the complaint.

Thanks, @meowmommy! Fixed it. That's what happens when I'm not paying attention. 

[Milburn Stone]

3 hours ago, supposebly said:

Is it "raising some idyllically" ? instead of raising them on an idyllic South Carolina sea island?

At least, that's what I would have circled on a student paper.

I think "raising them idyllically" works, if the meaning is that they had an idyllic life. It's possible to live a miserable existence on an idyllic island if your parents are abusive, for example. The author's wording indicates that the location was idyllic, and the existence was idyllic. However, the author also says that the mother could be treacherous. And that does present a contradiction. Maybe that's what @Leeds is getting at. If so, I see the point.

Edited February 20, 2021 by Milburn Stone

[legaleagle53]

Well, @Leeds, are you going to answer us, or are you just going to leave us hanging and speculating for all eternity?

[Leeds]

2 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Well, @Leeds, are you going to answer us, or are you just going to leave us hanging and speculating for all eternity?

Ha ha!

Pat Conroy, "Prince of Tides".

He's the master of purple prose and abusive relationships.

Plus, I object to his use of "idyllically".  I also dislike his use of "treacherous".

 

[Zella]

The only Pat Conroy I've ever read was The Lords of Discipline, and for all the talk of him as a great Southern writer (which is totally in my wheelhouse of reading likes), I found it pretty underwhelming and--dare I say--amateurish. Actually, just checking Goodreads to see how I rated it, and I must not have even been able to finish it. But the page is full of 5 star reviews. I know this is heresy in some circles, but I thought the movie was much better. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Zella

[shapeshifter]

On 2/17/2021 at 6:48 PM, Leeds said:

Their mother, Lila, who raised them idyllically on a South Carolina sea island, was both the most soothing and the most treacherous parent in the world.

Free virtual drinks to the first person to guess the author of this abomination.

1 hour ago, Leeds said:

3 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Well, @Leeds, are you going to answer us, or are you just going to leave us hanging and speculating for all eternity?

Ha ha!

Pat Conroy, "Prince of Tides".

He's the master of purple prose and abusive relationships.

Plus, I object to his use of "idyllically".  I also dislike his use of "treacherous".

But the words @Leeds quotes are those of the critic, Janet Maslin, not Conroy, even though she too finds Conroy's writing "suffused with excess": 

Quote

Nothing about Barbra Streisand's previous acting or direction is preparation for her expert handling of "The Prince of Tides," which has been pared down from Pat Conroy's sprawling, hyperbolic novel to a film that is gratifyingly lean. Discretion and reserve are not the first qualities that come to mind about Ms. Streisand's work, yet they are very much in evidence this time. So is the frankly emotional style with which she is more often associated, a style perfectly attuned to this film's complex, stirring story. "The Prince of Tides" marks Ms. Streisand's triumphantly good job of locating that story's salient elements and making them come alive on the screen.
Everything about Mr. Conroy's overripe family saga is suffused with excess, from the author's descriptions of his characters ("The words of her poems were a most private and fragrant orchard," he writes of Savannah Wingo, the narrator Tom Wingo's twin sister) to the experiences those characters share. The three Wingo children, Luke, Savannah and Tom, seem to do everything in unison, often on what are either the very best or very worst days of their lives. Feisty, brave and endlessly self-dramatizing, they have the knack of being colorful to a fault.
Their mother, Lila, who raised them idyllically on a South Carolina sea island, was both the most soothing and the most treacherous parent in the world. The island itself was Paradise, then Paradise Lost. Their abusive father, Henry, cast a giant shadow over his children's lives. All of the Wingos' personal dramas are played out on this exhaustingly grand scale.

(Maslin, Janet. "Review/Film; 'Prince of Tides' Sidesteps Book's Pitfalls: [Review]." New York Times, Dec 25, 1991)

[Leeds]

24 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

But the words @Leeds quotes are those of the critic, Janet Maslin, not Conroy, even though she too finds Conroy's writing "suffused with excess": 

(Maslin, Janet. "Review/Film; 'Prince of Tides' Sidesteps Book's Pitfalls: [Review]." New York Times, Dec 25, 1991)

Thanks for the correction!

[Leeds]

 

So what, exactly, makes Graham's show better than the typical American late-night  versions? Perhaps it's the unique way he puts it all together with a little bit of booze (yes, the guests get to drink), a loud, gregarious set and, most importantly, an eclectic mix of celebrities who are forced to sit together -- and work off of each other -- for the entire show.  USA Today

Not really grammar, but a set cannot be gregarious.  Unless perhaps it's in the background of a movie starring a candlestick.

 

[Leeds]

47 minutes ago, Leeds said:

 

So what, exactly, makes Graham's show better than the typical American late-night  versions? Perhaps it's the unique way he puts it all together with a little bit of booze (yes, the guests get to drink), a loud, gregarious set and, most importantly, an eclectic mix of celebrities who are forced to sit together -- and work off of each other -- for the entire show.  USA Today

Not really grammar, but a set cannot be gregarious.  Unless perhaps it's in the background of a movie starring a candlestick.

 

And now that I look more closely, I will add that I loathe with the fire of a thousand nuns the use of "off of".

[isalicat]

At this point in time I would pay a considerable amount of money never ever to hear the "word" impactful again. I don't even recognize that as a real word 😞

Did we not used to say something like "meaningful" or "important" or "decisive" or....anything, anything else to express the same concept?