Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[shapeshifter]

16 minutes ago, Mondrianyone said:

You just have to try more hardly next time.  👩‍🎓

13 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

People actually say this?!

I hardly hope not!

[EtheltoTillie]

42 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

People actually say this?!

Well a certain former elected official says bigly.

Edited June 16 by EtheltoTillie

[annzeepark914]

"It really has made all the difference in the world to William and me..."

I just read somewhere online that the Princess of Wales is being widely criticized for using bad grammar in that sentence. I'm almost speechless 😏. Maybe this will be the opportune time to finally end the incorrect usage of "I".  It could be the mother-of- all teachable moments.

[shapeshifter]

2 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

"It really has made all the difference in the world to William and me..."

I just read somewhere online that the Princess of Wales is being widely criticized for using bad grammar in that sentence. I'm almost speechless 😏. Maybe this will be the opportune time to finally end the incorrect usage of "I".  It could be the mother-of- all teachable moments.

One can hope.

[SoMuchTV]

4 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

"It really has made all the difference in the world to William and me..."

I just read somewhere online that the Princess of Wales is being widely criticized for using bad grammar in that sentence. I'm almost speechless 😏. Maybe this will be the opportune time to finally end the incorrect usage of "I".  It could be the mother-of- all teachable moments.

Obviously, being British, she should have said "... to William and myself..."  Right?  Or have I been watching too many UK-based game/talk shows?  (Why can't I find an eye roll emoji?)

[Quof]

"him and myself"

 

The number of office emails I receive that begin "on behalf of Big Boss and myself...." ...  Not to mention the "please contact myself".  

I deserve a medal for not hitting "Reply all" and using the vocabulary this grammar deserves.  

Edited June 21 by Quof

[Browncoat]

2 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

(Why can't I find an eye roll emoji?)

Here you go:  🙄

[SoMuchTV]

1 hour ago, Browncoat said:

Here you go:  🙄

Is that one of the options here, and if so, what search terms did you use to find it? Or did you copy-paste it in from somewhere else?

[Browncoat]

2 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Is that one of the options here, and if so, what search terms did you use to find it? Or did you copy-paste it in from somewhere else?

I found it in the emoji section of the format bar at the top of the dialog box.  Left to right, there is Bold, Italic, Underline, Strike, Link, Quote, then a smiley face, which will lead you to a plethora of emoji.  

[SoMuchTV]

5 minutes ago, Browncoat said:

I found it in the emoji section of the format bar at the top of the dialog box.  Left to right, there is Bold, Italic, Underline, Strike, Link, Quote, then a smiley face, which will lead you to a plethora of emoji.  

That’s where I was looking, but on my phone it’s hard to tell what each one is, so I used the “search” and nothing came up for eye roll or any variation of that I could think of. I’ll have to look when I’m on a bigger screen. Thanks!

[Browncoat]

25 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

That’s where I was looking, but on my phone it’s hard to tell what each one is, so I used the “search” and nothing came up for eye roll or any variation of that I could think of. I’ll have to look when I’m on a bigger screen. Thanks!

They're hard to see (for me) even on a larger screen -- I have to hover my cursor over them to see what some of them are.

[SoMuchTV]

1 minute ago, Browncoat said:

They're hard to see (for me) even on a larger screen -- I have to hover my cursor over them to see what some of them are.

🙄

oh, hey. I can use my fingers to zoom in on my phone. But if I didn’t know it was there, I might not have had the patience to search. 

At least now it should be at the top with my most recently used ones. 

🙄 and… search within the emojis didn’t work, but typing “eye roll “ directly in my reply brought it up as a suggestion. Today I learned. 

[shapeshifter]

I have a grammar question about something that includes political candidates names, but I am not sharing any political affiliations, nor does the text. 
 

The Washington Post has a poll up entitled: “Do swing-state voters share your priorities? Answer these 8 questions to find out.“

One question read:

Quote

Would you be unhappy if either Trump or Biden won the presidency?

I selected "yes," because I would be unhappy if the one I voted for did not win.

But it turns out "yes" means I would be unhappy if either won. 

I'm guessing it's grammatically correct but also confusing. 
But is it correct?

[EtheltoTillie]

Very poorly written question. 

[shapeshifter]

46 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Very poorly written question. 

Unless, perhaps, the writer was deliberately slipping in a sad joke about this being a case where all responses were equally awful?

I guess it’s impossible to separate the grammar from the intended meaning in this case — regardless of what the intended meaning was.

[supposebly]

In Formal Semantics, the branch of Linguistics that studies meaning in language from a logical POV, the operator for 'or' and its natural-language equivalent is considered ambiguous between an inclusive and an exclusive meaning.

That means that one possible interpretation of 'or' is that it can be the one the survey was going for, the inclusive meaning. It's similar to 'and':

(1)Would you be unhappy if "Biden won" is true and "Trump won" is true. Answering 'yes' means you would be unhappy if "Biden won" is true and "Trump won" is true. Both can be true at the same time, so you can be unhappy if either is true.

Adding the word 'either' is supposed to disambiguate for the exclusive meaning:

(2) Would you be unhappy if either "Biden won" is true or "Trump won" is true.

Here, just one of them can be true at the same time. If you say 'yes' you would be unhappy if either one is true. But it's not clear which one. Just that one of them is true, i.e. one of them won.

So, from a formal Semanticists' POV, you interpreted it as the exclusive meaning of (2) but they asked for the inclusive meaning in (1).

The grammar is fine but the connection to meaning is ambiguous because 'or' is ambiguous. They disambiguated in the question but not for the answer. I find survey questions are very very often completely ambiguous. This is actually a minor one. I've seen much worse.

[EtheltoTillie]

Silly pandering?

[shapeshifter]

Oh dear. I happen to agree with this person on the particular issue being outlined in this video, which is why just after the 1 minute mark I was so disheartened when she said “less” instead of “fewer”: 
x.com/bidenswins/status/1804574722144850410

 

[EtheltoTillie]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Oh dear. I happen to agree with this person on the particular issue being outlined in this video, which is why just after the 1 minute mark I was so disheartened when she said “less” instead of “fewer”: 
x.com/bidenswins/status/1804574722144850410

 

Oh it’s AOC!  Did not expect that when I watched. 

[Mondrianyone]

I dunno. Having the rules of language and grammar down pat is a big part of how I earn a living, but things like saying "less" rather than "fewer" couldn't in real life be a lower priority for me. What she said in that clip is so much more important than some minor usage glitch that it would barely register on my mental screen. Consider the alternative and go after him instead. There aren't enough hours in a millennium to cover those language fuckups. Plus substantive fuckups that can ruin people's lives. And have.

I give her a total pass.

[SoMuchTV]

I’m probably the last living human who learned to read from a primer (pronounced primmer) so I still get annoyed when I hear people refer to an introductory text as a prymer (like it’s a coat of paint). I’m a little afraid to look it up lest I find out that anything goes now. 

[annzeepark914]

2 hours ago, Mondrianyone said:

I dunno. Having the rules of language and grammar down pat is a big part of how I earn a living, but things like saying "less" rather than "fewer" couldn't in real life be a lower priority for me. What she said in that clip is so much more important than some minor usage glitch that it would barely register on my mental screen. Consider the alternative and go after him instead. There aren't enough hours in a millennium to cover those language fuckups. Plus substantive fuckups that can ruin people's lives. And have.

I give her a total pass.

I cannot handle the persistent use of "I" instead of "me". But when it comes to less/fewer and bring/take? That just doesn't make me cringe. I don't hear that internal alarm bell blaring, *wrong*!!!  I'm even calmer today about who/whom. Peace on Earth, please 🤗💚

 

 

 

 

 

[SVNBob]

7 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

I’m probably the last living human who learned to read from a primer (pronounced primmer) so I still get annoyed when I hear people refer to an introductory text as a prymer (like it’s a coat of paint). I’m a little afraid to look it up lest I find out that anything goes now. 

To be fair, calling an introductory learning text a "prymer" does at least make sense.  Since it is "priming" the mind to learn more on the subject contained therein.

[shapeshifter]

12 hours ago, Mondrianyone said:

I dunno. Having the rules of language and grammar down pat is a big part of how I earn a living, but things like saying "less" rather than "fewer" couldn't in real life be a lower priority for me. What she said in that clip is so much more important than some minor usage glitch that it would barely register on my mental screen. Consider the alternative and go after him instead. There aren't enough hours in a millennium to cover those language fuckups. Plus substantive fuckups that can ruin people's lives. And have.

I give her a total pass.

I grew up with 2 parents who shared an almost religious reverence for speaking grammatically correct American English with no discernible accent. They believed speaking as if one had ancestors who came over on the Mayflower was the key to financial success and social acceptance — and the alternative was to be an object of ridicule and to be passed over for job promotions necessary to remain in the middle class.    

So I can accept — and even use — non-standard grammar if it fits the social situation. But if I am intently listening to someone riffing along in so-called “proper English,” when they seemingly unintentionally drop an errant “Me” or a “fewer” into their otherwise impeccable word stream, I reflexively channel Mom and burst out loud with the “less than” correction. 
And then I immediately wish I could have not not noticed it and let it interrupt my concentration.😔

Am I the only one who does this?
Or is it common, and if I Google enough, I’ll find an app that purports to use Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to stop internal dialogue from interrupting one’s concentration by correcting others’ grammar when it’s totally beside the frickin’ point?

[ABay]

Maybe similar to what @shapeshifter is saying, it throws me out of the story when the alleged genius doesn't know enough to use "me" when it's called for rather than "I". Not so bright after all, are you, Mr. Smartypants?

[fairffaxx]

A candidate for political office said "infer" when she should have said "imply" & I immediately decided not to vote for her.  There were other reasons too, but that sealed the deal for me.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, ABay said:

Maybe similar to what @shapeshifter is saying, it throws me out of the story when the alleged genius doesn't know enough to use "me" when it's called for rather than "I". Not so bright after all, are you, Mr. Smartypants?

Heh. I can totally go there too.
But when it's a work-daughter (whose real parents were Far Eastern immigrants) or my TV/political daughter (like AOC), it triggers a mix of emotions — like when a real daughter does it:
My first reaction might be: Oops! Oh, dear!
Then: Are they doing it on purpose to be relatable to their audience?
Or maybe: Is this what all the cool kids are doing?
Or is this usage now totally acceptable, and I've missed the rule change?

I think only my youngest of 3 daughters makes these errors. My older 2 have corrected me on occasion. When the youngest makes a speaking grammar faux pas, it makes me also feel guilty because I moved so many times for jobs when she and I were alone that she had a repeat of the 2nd grade curriculum due to school crowding, and then the next year started 5th grade-level, so she effectively missed 3rd and 4th grades. Thank goodness for spell-check.
Moral of the story: 
There are many reasons someone might use "fewer" instead of "less," or, much worse, "me" instead of "I" or vice versa.
And I am easily distracted.

I wish I could tune it out unless it makes a difference in meaning within the context.

 

Edited June 25 by shapeshifter

[SweetieDarling]

When my kids were young, I was so in the habit of correcting their grammar (to the best of my ability) that I corrected their first grade teacher, in front of the principal!

It was dismissal, and the Principal was standing by the door where the teachers brought the kids out. It was a very tiny school, and the teachers were required to make eye contact with the person picking up the child before dismissing them. My son saw me, started walking toward me, and the teacher said, "Can I be excused?" to remind him to ask. Without missing a beat, I blurted out, "May I?"

Edited June 25 by SweetieDarling

[Mondrianyone]

I don't want to get into a big debate about it, and I won't, but after a lifetime of correcting the errors in spelling, grammar, usage, and all sorts of other mistakes in the work of some of the most famous writers in the world, I've come to a conclusion. There are people who've never been taught these things and people who just don't seem to have the gene for them--spelling, say. One writer, twenty-plus of whose books I've done, can't seem to keep the distinction between "ground" (outdoors) and "floor" (indoors) straight, and he's crazy smart. All sorts of other errors, too, that he makes repeatedly, book after book. But that's okay with me, since I wouldn't have a job otherwise. And he's just one of countless writers--people who get paid lots of money to use the English language--who make all kinds of mistakes after having tons of time to think about what they're typing and get it right, not just speaking extemporaneously.

Of course, all this correcting is done out of the view of the public, discreetly, and I would never say, "Boy, that Bill Shakespeare is really an idiot!" So what surprises me, although it no longer should, is that people who wouldn't dream of saying out loud that someone is fat or has bad skin or dresses badly have no problem with grammar-shaming others in a public way. I don't know why that's considered an acceptable exception, but it seems to be. We aren't all instructed in the same skills and don't all have the same aptitudes, but there you go. I suppose it makes some of us feel better, but I personally don't correct someone publicly unless that someone has asked me to or if a person has really pissed me off--by trying to embarrass someone else and making an even dumber mistake in the process. That's called Muphry's law, by the way, and it's amazing how often you see it.

 

Edited June 25 by Mondrianyone
Typo!

[supposebly]

Knowing how to use formal language has nothing to do with intelligence. There is some correlation with education but again, that should not be reason to criticize or put down people because their rules are different. Knowing to use formal language in the right context is a skill that not everyone has the privilege to learn.

And most "rules" that people criticize often don't exist in spoken vernacular. I don't know how often it needs saying but language rules change. From one generation to the next, from one place to the next, from one social class to the next, from one gender to the next, from one dialect to the next.

What one person thinks is right isn't right for the next person or even situation. 

There are hundreds if not thousands of Englishes in the world. There is no ONE English grammar. We should celebrate that diversity, not put it down under some misconception that we know best.

[ABay]

1 hour ago, Mondrianyone said:

One writer, twenty-plus of whose books I've done, can't seem to keep the distinction between "ground" (outdoors) and "floor" (indoors) straight, and he's crazy smart.

Is he British? I've noticed floor being used for outdoors in a lot of British TV shows. The only time it sounds OK to my ears is in the phrase forest floor.

[annzeepark914]

The English language is tough enough for people born in English-speaking countries (with all the grammar rules & puzzling pronunciations). It must be God-awful trying to learn it. Back in my early 20's, I'd  occasionally correct pronunciations (of people I knew well). I think someone finally let me know this wasn't appreciated, thank goodness! 🥴

[supposebly]

Only children have no problems acquiring a language or more than one. The ability to acquire languages with no direct instruction disappears with puberty and the success of whatever language learning one does then depends on multiple outside and personal factors.

The ability to learn a language without accent disappears even earlier for most people.

Meanings change even faster than actual grammar rules, so this is often within one generation. I'm Gen X and I've been speaking English on a daily basis since 1998 at the ripe age of 29 and I noticed the fewer/less thing back then in Toronto already since I was taught this rule back in Germany too. I'm still using it this way most of the time but not always. 

And the usage of 'less' with plurals has been around since the days of King Alfred, Merriam Webster tells me. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/less

[EtheltoTillie]

I wish @Mondrianyone would let us know the identity of the famous writer who mixes up floor and ground, but I know she won't break the vow of silence.  (God, I hope it's not your fellow Mainer Stephen King!)

I'm with @shapeshifter.  I cannot shake the influence of those early childhood lessons from my parents on correct speech.  I can't shut off the mental reaction.  However, I would never embarrass people by correcting their speech.  Of course, I too used to correct people's writing as a magazine editor.  Then it was my job.

2 hours ago, ABay said:

Is he British? I've noticed floor being used for outdoors in a lot of British TV shows. The only time it sounds OK to my ears is in the phrase forest floor.

Ooh, maybe it's Lee Child--a British-born now American writer. He's written at least 21 books,  no?

[Mondrianyone]

No, not Lee Child. Not even a Brit. It was just a random example off the top of my head. Don't read into it. I'm simply expressing puzzlement at our desire to mock people in a public way for insignificant language deviations that don't affect us personally at all.

[shapeshifter]

15 hours ago, Mondrianyone said:

No, not Lee Child. Not even a Brit. It was just a random example off the top of my head. Don't read into it. I'm simply expressing puzzlement at our desire to mock people in a public way for insignificant language deviations that don't affect us personally at all.

Good point.

When I'm talking to my sister — who has lived in Canada with a Welsh husband since the 1970s (I've lived in the U.S. all but 2 years of my life) — I keep wanting to question her word choices and pronunciations, but try to at least not say anything out loud unless I'm really unsure of her meaning and, even then, only if she seems to expect a response from me — which is really the purpose of grammar rules, right?

However, given our lifetime of a fraught relationship, it can be challenging to not challenge her words — which is equivalent to remarking on a stranger's speech or writing, primarily because the meaning of their words is an anathema to us, and maybe we're hoping they don't really mean what we think they mean, but, if they do mean this offensive (to us) thing, then we feel doubly entitled to criticize them.

Even the comments on the NYT Wordle page can be surprisingly nationalistic, especially if a group of folks from London and Australia X'd out because they'd never seen the word of the day spelled without a "U".

Still, if Google Glasses had caught on (if anyone here remembers them) I would hope by now they'd have a captioning feature that could translate Britishisms.
Or would that just be pandering to jingoistic self-righteousness? Not if eventually I turned off the captions because I didn't need them anymore.

Then again, if my sister says the word "pasta" 3 times in one sentence with the Canadian (or is it Welsh?) pronunciation, it feels like she's trying to get me to question it, even if it's just because she's a foodie.

Meanwhile: https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/floor-ground.991538/

Edited June 26 by shapeshifter
a comma absolutely necessary for meaning

[Milburn Stone]

On 6/25/2024 at 7:32 AM, fairffaxx said:

A candidate for political office said "infer" when she should have said "imply" & I immediately decided not to vote for her.  There were other reasons too, but that sealed the deal for me.

I don't know whether you're being facetious or serious, and I like it either way.

[fairffaxx]

Thanks -- it's a true story.  I'd tell you her initials but then you might lose all respect for her too....

[annzeepark914]

42 minutes ago, fairffaxx said:

Thanks -- it's a true story.  I'd tell you her initials but then you might lose all respect for her too....

No we wouldn't...cross my little black heart 😸.

@shapeshifter OK...how does she pronounce pasta?

 

[shapeshifter]

10 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

@shapeshifter OK...how does she pronounce pasta?

The Canadian way:

• "PAST" + "uh"

with "PAST" as in “past, present, and future.”

[Quof]

36 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

The Canadian way:

• "PAST" + "uh"

with "PAST" as in “past, present, and future.”

Not the "Canadian way"

signed

a Canadian

[Browncoat]

One of our local news readers suggested that I "might have came across" this thing on social media. 🙄

[Zella]

Yes isn't that a British pronunciation? 

[Bastet]

24 minutes ago, Zella said:

Yes isn't that a British pronunciation? 

Yes.

[annzeepark914]

28 minutes ago, Zella said:

Yes isn't that a British pronunciation? 

Like Cornish pasties???

[Zella]

4 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

Like Cornish pasties???

I suppose so, though as an American, I've heard them say pasta a lot more than pasties in the British TV I watch. LOL

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Browncoat said:

One of our local news readers suggested that I "might have came across" this thing on social media. 🙄

Twice on the local NPR station this week in my car I heard "ran" used as a past participle instead of "run."
I instantly corrected the radio.

[fairffaxx]

And they thanked you, right?

[MaryMitch]

Has this been discussed?  I find it so interesting:

 

[Milburn Stone]

5 hours ago, MaryMitch said:

Has this been discussed?  I find it so interesting:

I'm desperately trying to think of an example that violates that, and I can't.