S02.E06: Chapter Fourteen

[Door County Cherry]

Quote

After he’s subpoenaed, Holcomb offers Perry an olive branch. Meanwhile, Della continues to foster her relationships with Camilla and Anita, giving her the confidence to question her first witness – and push the verdict in the Gallardos’ favor.

 

[wanderingstar]

That assistant DA Milligan's face is very punchable.

Good episode. I missed it: did we see Pete get into the safe in Perry's office and find the gun?

 

 

[shapeshifter]

1 minute ago, Gillian Rosh said:

did we see Pete get into the safe in Perry's office and find the gun?

No. We didn't see anyone opening the safe. But it was implied. We saw someone breaking into Perry's office who was good at picking locks. 
Holcomb knew Perry's lock wasn't very un-pickable. He mentioned if he was really worried about it that Perry should get a double cylinder lock that needed a key on the inside to unlock it too. I don't know how that works, but it could mean that Holcomb shared Perry's lock info with Pete?

And after the gun is removed from Perry's office, Paul remarks that "they're making listening devices smaller and smaller these days" as he opens a hollowed-out book with liquor hidden in it on the shelf by the safe.

But Perry thinks it's the schoolteacher, which I thought was crazy.
But when Perry and Della were discussing the file on the woman Brooks strangled,

• Perry says: "It would be nice if we had something to definitively tie Brooks to Noreen's 'accident.'"  
• Della responds: "True. The file's nice, but it's no smoking gun"
• Perry quips back with: "No, the smoking gun is in our safe."
• Immediately after, their secretary opened the door and said, "Mr. Mason. Miss Aimes is here to see you?"
  [implying Perry's teacher girlfriend might have overheard, especially since she overheard the "tasty" remark.]
  She also seemed too nosy about Della's situation, which could be more sellable info?
  Maybe she needs money?

Question: If Perry had agreed to "rest" when Della recommended it after she successfully got the jurors to see "reasonable doubt" that the Gallardos were the most likely killers, could Perry having the murder weapon in his office safe had still been brought up, at least caused a mistrial? 

[kay1864]

59 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I missed it: did we see Pete get into the safe in Perry's office and find the gun?

No, we didn’t. And if Perry actually considers his son’s teacher a suspect , I’m surprised he doesn’t widen his scope to include Pete.

But even then: why would Pete know the combination to Perry’s safe? Surely Pete or even  Holcomb can’t pick a combination safe. 

Can someone explain to me what the hophead has to do with this?

Edited April 11, 2023 by kay1864

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, Gillian Rosh said:

That assistant DA Milligan's face is very punchable.

Speaking of DAs' faces, it was hard to see, but I think Berger had a smile on his face after Della's performance in the courtroom.

14 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

No. We didn't see anyone opening the safe. But it was implied. We saw someone breaking into Perry's office who was good at picking locks. 
Holcomb knew Perry's lock wasn't very un-pickable. He mentioned if he was really worried about it that Perry should get a double cylinder lock that needed a key on the inside to unlock it too. I don't know how that works, but it could mean that Holcomb shared Perry's lock info with Pete?

And after the gun is removed from Perry's office, Paul remarks that "they're making listening devices smaller and smaller these days" as he opens a hollowed-out book with liquor hidden in it on the shelf by the safe.

But Perry thinks it's the schoolteacher, which I thought was crazy.
But when Perry and Della were discussing the file on the woman Brooks strangled,

• Perry says: "It would be nice if we had something to definitively tie Brooks to Noreen's 'accident.'"  
• Della responds: "True. The file's nice, but it's no smoking gun"
• Perry quips back with: "No, the smoking gun is in our safe."
• Immediately after, their secretary opened the door and said, "Mr. Mason. Miss Aimes is here to see you?"
  [implying Perry's teacher girlfriend might have overheard, especially since she overheard the "tasty" remark.]
  She also seemed too nosy about Della's situation, which could be more sellable info?
  Maybe she needs money?

Come on, it's the secretary, right?

12 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

Can someone explain to me what the hophead has to do with this?

I think maybe that line of investigation is related to whoever hired the Gallardos to kill McCutcheon? Not sure.

[Door County Cherry]

55 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Question: If Perry had agreed to "rest" when Della recommended it after she successfully got the jurors to see "reasonable doubt" that the Gallardos were the most likely killers, could Perry having the murder weapon in his office safe had still been brought up, at least caused a mistrial?

Since the prosecution had already rested, it was always going to need the judge to agree to allow them to introduce new evidence.  The defense attorney hoarding the murder weapon was not something the judge would allow whether he let the prosecution reintroduce evidence or declared a mistrial.  

But the case was still going on.  The DA hadn't cross-examined the man Della questioned*.  He'd have to complete that before Perry could rest. 

*I'm a little surprised the judge let them get away with that.  He definitely has a motive but I think other people with a motive isn't necessarily enough to call random people to the stand unless there's other evidence to suggest they could have done it. 

But you asking that question reminds me of something that kind of irks me about this show and I'm annoyed to be irked by it.  This show is Perry Mason and yet I also half expected Della to be proven right by demanding they rest because I feel like they've been pushing Della as the super-lawyer we all expected Perry to be.  Or to become.  She's the one who is telling Perry he needs to keep defending his client.  She's the one bringing out the case law.  She's the one having epiphanies or shown to be the sensible one.  I get they want to beef up Juliet Rylance's Della but I wish they'd find a better balance.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

22 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Question: If Perry had agreed to "rest" when Della recommended it after she successfully got the jurors to see "reasonable doubt" that the Gallardos were the most likely killers, could Perry having the murder weapon in his office safe had still been brought up, at least caused a mistrial? 

Hypothetically, the prosecution not only would have gotten to cross-examine the councilman before Perry could rest, but the judge could allow the reopening of the prosecution case or allow the prosecution to put on evidence as to the finding of the gun as part of a rebuttal prosecution case.

I am wondering if Perry gets out of this by either Paul having been wrong with his makeshift ballistics tests and it's NOT the murder weapon, or Pete having switched weapons, or someone screwing up the prosecution's ballistics tests so that Perry can feign innocence.

31 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Holcomb knew Perry's lock wasn't very un-pickable. He mentioned if he was really worried about it that Perry should get a double cylinder lock that needed a key on the inside to unlock it too. I don't know how that works, but it could mean that Holcomb shared Perry's lock info with Pete?

I think that Holcomb was talking about the lock to the office door, as opposed to a safe.

27 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

No, we didn’t. And if Perry actually considers his son’s teacher a suspect , I’m surprised he doesn’t widen his scope to include Pete.

But even then: why would Pete know the combination to Perry’s safe? Surely Pete or even  Holcomb can’t pick a combination safe. 

Can someone explain to me what the hophead has to do with this?

I am guessing that Perry still uses E.B.'s old safe, which Pete might know the combo to it, and the location, since he too worked for E.B.

In a previous episode, Paul beat a confession out of Converse-wearer that the person who paid him to recruit the Gallardos was a  white guy who he had previous dealings with, with a hophead for a wife who comes down to score drugs in a blue Lincoln. So Paul has decided to stake out the area, thinking the wife will lead him to the husband, which will get him closer to whoever was behind recruiting the Gallardos and the real reason Brooks is dead.

[sistermagpie]

46 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

But you asking that question reminds me of something that kind of irks me about this show and I'm annoyed to be irked by it.  This show is Perry Mason and yet I also half expected Della to be proven right by demanding they rest because I feel like they've been pushing Della as the super-lawyer we all expected Perry to be.  Or to become.  She's the one who is telling Perry he needs to keep defending his client.  She's the one bringing out the case law.  She's the one having epiphanies or shown to be the sensible one.  I get they want to beef up Juliet Rylance's Della but I wish they'd find a better balance.  

With Perry they sometimes seem more focused on figuring out different ways to make him a mess. Like this week setting up the teacher coming to the office for all of 20 seconds so that Perry can leap to the conclusion that she somehow overheard something that led her be the leak just so he can destroy the one good relationship in his life and probably hurt things with his son AGAIN  by proxy. It didn't even feel like he had a good character reason to do it. He just need to screw another good thing up because the script told him to again. Dude's got people breaking into his apartment and setting up toy trains but yeah, it must have been the teacher who heard you say "smoking gun is in our safe," put 2 and 2 together and came up with witholding evidence.

[aghst]

So the big AHA! moment this season belongs to Della.

And looks like the show doesn't just want to spring these revelations on the characters in the court room but also the viewers.

The thing about burst blood vessels on Noreen did make you think that Brooks choked her during sex and it went too far.  I think they hinted at it in the first episode of this season but didn't show it happening.  The next time we see Noreen, Brooks is already dead and she's in San Haven, non responsive.

But Della slowly unravels it in her questioning of Taylor and makes everyone in the court room, as well as the viewers tie things together.

 

If Holcomb brought Perry this information about the blood vessels, some viewers would have conjured up theories and posted them on Reddit.  But they reveal the significance within the same episode and then undercut it by having the smoking gun discovered.

 

Thing is, even if Perry, Della and Paul solve everything and have a nice package to lay on the court, they were going to get in trouble for concealing the gun, because it's obstruction of justice regardless of whether he successfully defends his clients or find out who really killed Brooks.

So were they planning never to turn in the gun?  Then why not get rid of it?

Or were they going to at some point turn it in, but doing so would never end well for them as there was probably no way to justify withholding it?

Yeah Perry going off on Ginny makes no sense.  Why and to whom would she blab it?  Rhys says Perry is "weary" or suspicious of people -- he's also wary.  Why wouldn't Strickland be the first person he suspects?  Plus someone had broken into his office so why would his suspicions go to Ginny?

 

I know it's realistic depiction of the times but the casual racism of some of the characters is really kind of difficult to hear in some of the dialog.  Speaking of which, the eviction of the Gallardos depicted in episode 5 is actually based on the eviction of Hispanic people in Chavez Ravine, to make way for Dodgers Stadium, according to people interviewed on the Inside the Episode.

But Dodgers Stadium opened in 1962 so the evictions would have occurred in the late '50s or early '60s.  Not quite the '30s depicted on the show, before Civil Rights but still uncomfortably more recent than we'd like to admit.

 

[thuganomics85]

I definitely think the show wants us to think Pete was the one who broke in and figured out the smoking gun, but since we didn't actually see him, I can see it being someone else.  Holcomb is definitely a good option (although he sincerely led Perry to some good evidence with all that fruit stuff, so who knows?  Maybe he is playing both sides?), but someone mentioning the secretary did raise a good point there.  We've have been seeing her a lot, but she has yet to really factor in.  Really wouldn't be that far-fetched.

But, of course, since Perry is nothing if not reliable to a good old-fashioned spiral, he accuses Ginny of being a mole right when it look like they might have something serious starting to form.  Sigh... classic Perry!

Looks like they continue to provide more doubt for the jury by revealing the truth about Brooks' infidelity and violent kinks, which seem to have its attended effects in the courtroom.  It made sense to have Della provide the final argument and she did a real good job, although I do kind of agree they are making her almost too competent here.  We see Perry having to struggle and occasionally get knocked back whenever he's in the courtroom, but she seems to pretty much always be on point.  Well, at least in the courtroom.  Her love life still feels like a mess.  Feel like she is rushing things with Anita by moving in already.  I'm glad she at least made an off screen apology to Hazel.

Speaking of spiraling, Drake is so falling apart right now.  Snapping at everyone: including his wife.  That man is a powder keg that is going to explode at any point.

Glad for the Virgil the Helpful Coroner name-drop!  Kind of want to see him again.  And unlike Perry and Della, I totally want to see his community theater performance!  

Did enjoy Hamilton's brief smirk watching Della take the senator apart, despite it hurting the case.  But his reactions here continue to be off.  Someone has something over him, I think.

I wonder if something is going to come out of the one Gallardo guy getting a bit cocky and even going off on the cops.  An understanding notion, but they definitely have the power here and antagonizing them will probably not be good long-term wise.

[Starchild]

3 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

I wonder if something is going to come out of the one Gallardo guy getting a bit cocky and even going off on the cops.

Speaking of, I'm surprised he didn't look more beat up in the courtroom after that.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Starchild said:

Speaking of, I'm surprised he didn't look more beat up in the courtroom after that.

Me too! That's the brother who pawned the coin, right? If I was his brother I'd want to kill him myself. How many times is he going to do things like that?

[paigow]

Perkins apparently killed Ozzie after Paul left. The hophead kid retrieved the shoes during opening credits. Paul thinks the kid can tie Perkins to the murder or lead to the guy who initially hired Ozzie.

4 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Can someone explain to me what the hophead has to do with this?

 

[EtheltoTillie]

Just now, paigow said:

Perkins apparently killed Ozzie after Paul left. The hophead kid retrieved the shoes during opening credits. Paul thinks the kid can tie Perkins to the murder or lead to the guy who initially hired Ozzie.

 

But didn't he just find the shoes randomly hanging on a wire?  I just want to make sure he didn't see someone throwing the shoes up there?  I saw that when he got the shoes down, he saw blood on the laces but he took the shoes anyway.  Why would the killers just throw the shoes away instead of burning or otherwise destroying them?  Were they meant to be seen publicly to send a message to the populace who would know whose shoes they were? 

[paigow]

5 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

But didn't he just find the shoes randomly hanging on a wire? 

Paul is inferring that the kid took the shoes while dumping Ozzie...  

[paigow]

If Ginny is a mole, Milligan must be the guy she was dating before Perry....

[Blakeston]

I couldn't snap out of lawyer mode when Della was in court making a proclamation about what she "believes" happened with the belt - rather than, you know, questioning the witness - and was able to get away with it.

The line about the coroner being in a community theater production had to be a reference to Jefferson Mays being a legendary stage actor.

[paigow]

7 hours ago, aghst said:

So were they planning never to turn in the gun?  Then why not get rid of it?

Perry tried jury tampering last season... keeping the gun gives him the opportunity to plant it on someone... 

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, aghst said:

So the big AHA! moment this season belongs to Della.

And looks like the show doesn't just want to spring these revelations on the characters in the court room but also the viewers.

The thing about burst blood vessels on Noreen did make you think that Brooks choked her during sex and it went too far.  I think they hinted at it in the first episode of this season but didn't show it happening.  The next time we see Noreen, Brooks is already dead and she's in San Haven, non responsive.

But Della slowly unravels it in her questioning of Taylor and makes everyone in the court room, as well as the viewers tie things together.

 

If Holcomb brought Perry this information about the blood vessels, some viewers would have conjured up theories and posted them on Reddit.  But they reveal the significance within the same episode and then undercut it by having the smoking gun discovered.

 

Thing is, even if Perry, Della and Paul solve everything and have a nice package to lay on the court, they were going to get in trouble for concealing the gun, because it's obstruction of justice regardless of whether he successfully defends his clients or find out who really killed Brooks.

So were they planning never to turn in the gun?  Then why not get rid of it?

Or were they going to at some point turn it in, but doing so would never end well for them as there was probably no way to justify withholding it?

Yeah Perry going off on Ginny makes no sense.  Why and to whom would she blab it?  Rhys says Perry is "weary" or suspicious of people -- he's also wary.  Why wouldn't Strickland be the first person he suspects?  Plus someone had broken into his office so why would his suspicions go to Ginny?

 

I know it's realistic depiction of the times but the casual racism of some of the characters is really kind of difficult to hear in some of the dialog.  Speaking of which, the eviction of the Gallardos depicted in episode 5 is actually based on the eviction of Hispanic people in Chavez Ravine, to make way for Dodgers Stadium, according to people interviewed on the Inside the Episode.

But Dodgers Stadium opened in 1962 so the evictions would have occurred in the late '50s or early '60s.  Not quite the '30s depicted on the show, before Civil Rights but still uncomfortably more recent than we'd like to admit.

 

Not to sprain my arm patting myself on the back, but I hypothesized that Brooks put Noreen in the condition he is through sex strangulation as soon as we were introduced to her. Holcomb did bring the information about blood vessels...it just was this episode rather than when Noreen was first introduced. I didn't catch that his belt was monogrammed or offered proof that it was the strangulation weapon. 

So it's unclear what exactly Perry and Co. were planning to do with the gun if the situation was not taken out of their hands. But they were put in an ethical dilemma once Paul brought it to them. They could either produce it against the best interests of their clients, because eventually it could/would be traced to Scummy Gun-Renter in the Gallardos' Hooverville, who will testify that he in fact rented it to the Gallardos that day, which in combination with the fact that Rafa pawned the three-of-a-kind coin that Brooks owned would be enough to remove reasonable doubt. Or they can withhold it, which would violate their obligation of candor to the court and to be forthcoming with opposing counsel. 

Presumably, Perry and Co. were trying to figure out what to do about the dilemma and thinking that it would not have to be resolved. Of course, part of this is plot convenience. If Perry had said, "Paul, take that thing and throw it in the ocean like you were originally thinking. Why the hell did you bring it here?" It would not lead to whatever fallout we will see in the next episodes.

It's easy for us to suspect Pete when we a) literally saw him attempt to break into Perry's apartment b) saw that Milligan charged him with trying to undermine Perry's case and c) are able to look at things more objectively than Perry. But Perry probably has some blinders to Pete's willingness to screw him over. They've been pals for a while, and done shady stuff together, including most recently stealing Lydell's prize race horse and Perry taking it for a joyride. Even though Perry should know that Pete is certainly got means, motive and opportunity to be the guy here, I could see why he would not consider Pete. And I could also see why he would consider Ginny. To him, the universe of people who knew anything about incriminating information being in the safe are people who can be 100 percent trusted to not have blabbed to the prosecution -- him, Della, Paul, Paul's wife, the new secretary (Miriam?), the Gallardos-- and Ginny. We know Ginny was capable of hearing what was said in the office from where she was because she caught Della calling her "tasty." It's possible that Ginny was moved by a sense of duty to report that Perry was withholding something. 

I don't know that someone had actually broken into his office. I think that as a result of someone having broken into his home, Perry decided to up his security game both at work and home.

[paigow]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Holcomb knew Perry's lock wasn't very un-pickable.

Pete has visited the office enough to know what kind of lock was installed. Also, he would be able to find the safe without leaving a trace.

[cardigirl]

Didn't someone come to the office, but we weren't shown who, only the secretary looking up from her desk, before the scene switched?  Is it possible the sweet secretary is involved with spying on them? 

(Don't yell at me, I just wondered at that scene.) 

And what the heck was Brooks into? Why dump fruit and veg to rot? 

I'll have to do a re-watch. 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

And what the heck was Brooks into? Why dump fruit and veg to rot? 

Brooks did a lot of bad things, but not dumping food - He was getting it for free from Goldstein and reselling. Now that both of them are dead, somebody is sabotaging these shipments post-harvest with oil to drive up prices. 

[aghst]

I was thinking there was an oil leak that might threaten Lydell's business.

[Chicago Redshirt]

With this episode, I think we have to take Holcomb off the suspect list. He has little reason to lead Mason to information about the dumped produce, and of course, he doesn't have the money to manage the payoff to the Gallardos.

With the notion that produce is now an important possible factor in all this, I am wondering if Sunny actually might be the culprit. He does have money and a ruthless mindset. I think we explicitly were shown that the late Goldstein was one of his suppliers, but even if I'm making that up, the possible connection makes sense. Sunny has been established as a veteran, so he could conceivably have been a good enough shot to do the deed. And of course there's the the-most-famous-guest-star-is-likely-whodunnit factor.

I am wondering about the white guy with a hophead wife and who it might be.

Could Brooks's own wife be on drugs? Could Brooks have tried to arrange for a fake holdup of himself or something but someone went and made it real? That seems crazy.

The other suspects:

Lydell - nah. Too high above Converse Wearer to have personal dealings with him, even assuming wife had a drug problem.

Councilman Taylor- Seems doubtful. Being a councilman it would probably not be a good idea to have had personal dealings with a low-level Black criminal. 

Holcomb - doubtful both in his wife seemed perfectly normal, he doesn't have the cash for a big payoff, and even if he did, he'd probably just bully the dude into doing it.

Sunny - Eh, maybe. Not enough info one way or another at this point.

One of the attorneys- We were specifically told by Rich Lady's attorney that he was going home to his real wife, so we know he has one. He probably has money being attorney to Rich Lady. So not the craziest thing. Brooks's attorney also could be a possibility, but we don't know specifically about him being married. Obviously Burger isn't married, and there's no particular reason to suspect Milligan of being involved in a conspiracy to commit murder.

I'm probably leaving some folks out.

[Kath94]

11 hours ago, Starchild said:

Speaking of, I'm surprised he didn't look more beat up in the courtroom after that.

 

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Me too! That's the brother who pawned the coin, right? If I was his brother I'd want to kill him myself. How many times is he going to do things like that?

I'm surprised he even lived to see the courtroom the next day.  I half expected he wouldn't survive the night.

[Blakeston]

51 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

One of the attorneys- We were specifically told by Rich Lady's attorney that he was going home to his real wife, so we know he has one. He probably has money being attorney to Rich Lady. So not the craziest thing.

Phippsy making a reference to his wife seemed totally unnecessary, so that raised my suspicions as well. It would also explain why we've spent so much time with Nygard. (Also, Wallace Langham is an accomplished actor.)

Regarding the possible mole - I find it bizarre that Perry suspected his girlfriend before he suspected his secretary. Especially because he didn't want the secretary to begin with.

As someone who presumably wants a career in the legal profession, the secretary ratting them out and trying to win friends in the prosecutor's office would make a lot more sense than a random schoolteacher doing it.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Blakeston

[wanderingstar]

14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

She also seemed too nosy about Della's situation, which could be more sellable info?
Maybe she needs money?

I immediately thought of the new secretary. I'm surprised neither Perry nor Della thought of that.

[paigow]

38 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I immediately thought of the new secretary. I'm surprised neither Perry nor Della thought of that.

When Della hired her, nothing mole-worthy was happening... if Perry turned down the Gallardos, she would have quit?

[shapeshifter]

10 hours ago, paigow said:

Paul is inferring that the kid took the shoes while dumping Ozzie...  

Or, Paul assumes the kid that took the shoes off the wire saw what happened to Ozzie?

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Regarding the possible mole - I find it bizarre that Perry suspected his girlfriend before he suspected his secretary. Especially because he didn't want the secretary to begin with.

 

It seems like the real reason he not only suspected her but stormed over and basically told her he didn't believe her when she said she wasn't--is because he was ruining the relationship on purpose for some unconscious reason.

[Chicago Redshirt]

39 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I immediately thought of the new secretary. I'm surprised neither Perry nor Della thought of that.

Perry thought of it, sort of indicating by a head gesture that she was a possibility, and Della quickly and quietly chastised him for even thinking of it. 

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

Regarding the possible mole - I find it bizarre that Perry suspected his girlfriend before he suspected his secretary. Especially because he didn't want the secretary to begin with.

As someone who presumably wants a career in the legal profession, the secretary ratting them out and trying to win friends in the prosecutor's office would make a lot more sense than a random schoolteacher doing it.

Marion seems very by-the-book and loyal on the face of things, fresh out of a secretarial school and by-the-book. The only reason Perry didn't want her was because he didn't think that they could afford her. Now that they are flush with Sunny cash, that's not an issue. And so far, she has seemed to be doing a very commendable job.

Although it's possible that Marion might think that throwing Mason under the bus might curry favor with the prosecution and pave the way to a good future, it also might have the opposite effect -- she would have shown that she's willing to backstab her employer, so why would new employer want to hire her.  (Obviously a lot of people don't think that through).

You can forgive Perry for being paranoid about Ginny. He has very few good things going on in his life, and he could jump to the conclusion that she seems too good to be true. I could definitely envision in the abstract a 30s schoolmarm being shocked that Perry has a figurative smoking gun in his safe and feeling like she had the duty to report that to the authorities.

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Or, Paul assumes the kid that took the shoes off the wire saw what happened to Ozzie?

I think it is safest to say that Paul is still wracked with guilt over what he did to Ozzie and isn't exactly thinking straight. We know that the sneakers belong to Ozzie because there is blood on them. Also, as Wikipedia says, there is a connection between shoe tossing and sending a message about the owners being dead. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe_tossing#:~:text=Shoes on a telephone wire,in Chicago rejected this explanation.

But Paul (as far as we know) did not witness the shoes having been up on the wire and wasn't close enough to see the blood on them. The best he might have been able to see is that they were the same color and style that Ozzie wore. But of itself, so what? I imagine Converses were as popular then as, say, Nikes or Reeboks are now. But for being haunted by Ozzie, Paul doesn't really have much to connect those Converses to Ozzie. (Of course, I might have missed something).

49 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It seems like the real reason he not only suspected her but stormed over and basically told her he didn't believe her when she said she wasn't--is because he was ruining the relationship on purpose for some unconscious reason.

It's funny in a way -- among the things Perry Mason is famous for are 1) defending the factually innocent even in the face of evidence that makes them seem super-guilty and 2) withering cross-examinations that get the guilty to confess.

Here, he is attacking someone I presume to be factually innocent with very little evidence of her guilt and his "cross-examination" of Ginny was way weaker than it could have been.(Of course, it still could turn out that Ginny was the leak, but until shown otherwise, it makes the most sense for it to have been Pete.)

[shapeshifter]

On 4/11/2023 at 3:59 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Paul doesn't really have much to connect those Converses to Ozzie. (Of course, I might have missed something).

An episode or 2 ago, before Paul found Ozzie, Paul had been told that someone with orange Converses was involved (I don't recall how exactly) and had valuable information.

 

 

On 4/11/2023 at 3:59 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's funny in a way -- among the things Perry Mason is famous for are 1) defending the factually innocent even in the face of evidence that makes them seem super-guilty and 2) withering cross-examinations that get the guilty to confess.

Here, he is attacking someone I presume to be factually innocent with very little evidence of her guilt and his "cross-examination" of Ginny was way weaker than it could have been.(Of course, it still could turn out that Ginny was the leak, but until shown otherwise, it makes the most sense for it to have been Pete.)

The more I think about this, the more I think Ginny is the leak, and that she had been hired to get dirt and info on Perry and the case from the get-go because as the teacher of his kid, she was in a unique place to do so. The romance might have been extra, and real. 

And now I'm wondering if the toy train running in Perry's apartment was a too-cryptic message from Pete about Ginny.
Or maybe the train was a threat from whoever hired Ginny (if someone did).

BTW, when we saw someone trying to break in again, the arm looked too thin to be Pete's.

Edited April 14, 2023 by shapeshifter
"too" not "to"

[shapeshifter]

17 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I wonder if something is going to come out of the one Gallardo guy getting a bit cocky and even going off on the cops.

17 hours ago, Starchild said:

Speaking of, I'm surprised he didn't look more beat up in the courtroom after that.

17 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That's the brother who pawned the coin, right?

He's also the brother who was disfigured in the fire because he went back to try to save his sister.

I doubt he will survive the season.

 

[BingeyKohan]

If Pete had been the one to break in Perry’s apartment and set up the train set and burning cigarette, why’s he going back? To build a model airplane? It’s possible the attempted Pete break-in to Perry’s house we saw this episode was his first attempt at breaking in anywhere - the previous house and apartment break-ins were other people, maybe not even the same person. Different MOs, assembling a train set and cracking a safe. (Unless Pete did the office break-in, he’d possibly already know about the safe but if that’s the case he’s more likely to have switched gun out than to have merely found one, left it, and tipped off the prosecution.)

[Jodithgrace]

I was confused about all the locks Perry put on his door. He made it impossible for himself to get back in, and had to leave via the fire escape. But if Perry can get back in via the fire escape, why can’t somebody break in the same way?

They are going to have to do a lot of explaining to have Ginny be the mole. So far, it’s not earned. I think Perry is just self sabotaging again, since things were going so well. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

An episode or 2 ago, before Paul found Ozzie, Paul had been told that someone with orange Converses was involved (I don't recall how exactly) and had valuable information.

 

 

The more I think about this, the more I think Ginny is the leak, and that she had been hired to get dirt and info on Perry and the case from the get-go because as the teacher of his kid, she was in a unique place to do so. The romance might have been extra, and real. 

And now I'm wondering if the toy train running in Perry's apartment was a too-cryptic message from Pete about Ginny.
Or maybe the train was a threat from whoever hired Ginny (if someone did).

BTW, when we saw someone trying to break in again, the arm looked to thin to be Pete's.

What I meant was that I presume Converse sneakers are relatively popular. So seeing someone random wearing them, even if they were an unusual color or style, should not automatically trigger "this person must have gotten them from Ozzie."

I don't think that Ginny was set up. When she first met Perry, he had no involvement with the Gallardos. It's possible that someone approached her after the case started, or that on her own she decided to rat Perry out. But I don't think it's possible that she was a honeytrap for Perry from the very beginning.

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

(Unless Pete did the office break-in, he’d possibly already know about the safe but if that’s the case he’s more likely to have switched gun out than to have merely found one, left it, and tipped off the prosecution.)

Ooo! That would be a cool twist (Pete switched out the gun in the safe — perhaps with another from the gun renter).  
Make it so, Show.

 

8 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

I was confused about all the locks Perry put on his door. He made it impossible for himself to get back in, and had to leave via the fire escape. But if Perry can get back in via the fire escape, why can’t somebody break in the same way?

My thoughts exactly.  
So maybe we are looking at a Chekhovian scene on Perry’s fire escape.

[meep.meep]

On 4/11/2023 at 9:11 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

 

I am wondering about the white guy with a hophead wife and who it might be.

 

One of the attorneys- We were specifically told by Rich Lady's attorney that he was going home to his real wife, so we know he has one. He probably has money being attorney to Rich Lady. So not the craziest thing. 

And we found out that Rich Lady likes marijuana and really really likes to be taken care of.  And, if anyone was going to drive a Lincoln, it would be her or her minions.

Shoes hanging on a telephone wire are supposedly an indicator of drug dealers nearby.

Watching this I realized that one of the things I liked about Perry Mason original recipe was not having to hear about Della's sex life.  And I didn't even know it at the time.

[aghst]

Speaking of which how about Della calling Ginny "tasty?"

If a man said that about a young woman ...

[Chicago Redshirt]

14 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

And we found out that Rich Lady likes marijuana and really really likes to be taken care of.  And, if anyone was going to drive a Lincoln, it would be her or her minions.

Shoes hanging on a telephone wire are supposedly an indicator of drug dealers nearby.

Watching this I realized that one of the things I liked about Perry Mason original recipe was not having to hear about Della's sex life.  And I didn't even know it at the time.

Interesting but I think Rich Lady would have a better drug connect than Converse Wearer. We'll see.

What Wiki told me is that shoes on a wire could mean either "drugs nearby" or "the wearer of these sneakers sleeps with the fishes." In this case, I'm assuming it's the latter.

There was always an implication that Perry and Della might have something going on in OG Perry Mason, but there was never anything on screen that strongly supported the notion that they were more than friends/colleagues, or for that matter that they had romantic interest in anyone. Paul occasionally referred to going on dates and expressed interest or at least appreciation in some of the women they came across.

16 minutes ago, aghst said:

Speaking of which how about Della calling Ginny "tasty?"

If a man said that about a young woman ...

I mean, I could see a straight person saying that about someone of the same gender. Tastiness is at least somewhat objective.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, aghst said:

Speaking of which how about Della calling Ginny "tasty?"

If a man said that about a young woman ...

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I mean, I could see a straight person saying that about someone of the same gender. Tastiness is at least somewhat objective.

The thing about Della's "tasty" remark is that:

1. It proved Ginny could have overheard the "smoking gun is in our safe" remark, and
2. Ginny remarked to Perry: "I heard her describe me as 'tasty,' which was a first,"
   which implied to me that Ginny figured Della is a lesbian, which is more information Ginny could share with the enemy if in fact Ginny is the leak.

Also, Ginny did pry about whether Perry and Della had ever had a romantic relationship, which seems like a legitimate question given Ginny and Perry's current relationship and that he and Della are obviously close.
But it could also have cued her to the possibility of Della being gay.

Meanwhile:
When Della told Anita she was going to move in, Anita's face did not register any joy, despite Anita have been the one to bring it up in the last episode. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

The thing about Della's "tasty" remark is that:

1. It proved Ginny could have overheard the "smoking gun is in our safe" remark, and
2. Ginny remarked to Perry: "I heard her describe me as 'tasty,' which was a first,"
   which implied to me that Ginny figured Della is a lesbian, which is more information Ginny could share with the enemy if in fact Ginny is the leak.

Also, Ginny did pry about whether Perry and Della had ever had a romantic relationship, which seems like a legitimate question given Ginny and Perry's current relationship and that he and Della are obviously close.
But it could also have cued her to the possibility of Della being gay.

Meanwhile:
When Della told Anita she was going to move in, Anita's face did not register any joy, despite Anita have been the one to bring it up in the last episode. 

I wasn't quite sure if the first was supposed to be getting referred to as "tasty" or getting referred to as "tasty" by a woman.

I was operating under the assumption it was the former, because she started to ask if Perry and Della had a thing going. And the mindset in the 30s would not have envisioned bisexuality or the whole LGBTQ spectrum. So I think asking about that possible romantic relationship is evidence that she had not taken the "tasty" comment as Della suggesting "I'd love me a piece." but more likely a catty comment from a possible ex.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[tennisgurl]

Its always one step forward three stumbles back with Perry, it can be really frustrating. Of course the second things seem to be going well with Ginny he jumps to the rather far fetched conclusion that Ginny is the person who planted the bug and told the prosecution about the gun, which I don't buy at all. I know that the main character of an HBO drama has to be a tortured screw up, he cant be the pillar of moral rightness that the original Perry was, but somewhere in between would be nice. He's been doing better than last season, but now things are looking less good. 

I loved Della's expression as she put that belt around her own neck while the cameras were all clicking away, you could tell that both she and the press were thinking "oh yeah, we have a money shot." It seems like their strategy of introducing reasonable doubt and revealing Brooks history of violence, infidelity, and corruption is working, but now we have this gun issue complicating things. 

Paul is certainly on edge, still freaked out by what happened to the kid with the sneakers. So the kid Paul saw got the converse that the kid was wearing, seems weird to leave them hanging there considering they're tied to a possible murder, but maybe that was the point. The shoes are supposed to be a warning.

My first thought when they were trying to figure out who planted the bug was that it was Della's new girlfriend. She was in the office too, Della might have even left her alone if she left for a minute to go to the restroom or get food or drinks, she just started chasing after Della when this case started heating up, they're moving really fast, and I've always gotten a weird vibe from her that I don't trust. It feels like she's always got an angle, she didn't exactly look happy when Della said she was moving in, even though it was her idea. 

The secretary also seems like a likely suspect. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by tennisgurl

[paigow]

There is no evidence that a bug was planted. Paul was saying finding one would be difficult.

[J-Man]

I've been assuming that the hophead was Mrs. Holcomb, but maybe that's a leap.

One thing that annoys me about this show, as well as many others that are set in that era, is the casual use of profanity in professional, and especially mixed-gender, settings. This was just not done--even up through the '70s and beyond, much less in the '30s. It seems like they're just throwing it in there to be "contemporary" and because they can.

[shapeshifter]

49 minutes ago, J-Man said:

One thing that annoys me about this show, as well as many others that are set in that era, is the casual use of profanity in professional, and especially mixed-gender, settings. This was just not done--even up through the '70s and beyond, much less in the '30s. It seems like they're just throwing it in there to be "contemporary" and because they can.

Yeah. I've been hearing it on so many shows set in the past that I've been wondering if I'm wrong, but I never heard my father cuss until the late 1970s 
--and even then he only used "damn" and "hell," which he seemed to think should have been okay to say in front of his little granddaughter who was just developing a vocabulary (I asked him not to) but which I never heard him use in the 1950s and 60s.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, J-Man said:

I've been assuming that the hophead was Mrs. Holcomb, but maybe that's a leap.

One thing that annoys me about this show, as well as many others that are set in that era, is the casual use of profanity in professional, and especially mixed-gender, settings. This was just not done--even up through the '70s and beyond, much less in the '30s. It seems like they're just throwing it in there to be "contemporary" and because they can.

 

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Yeah. I've been hearing it on so many shows set in the past that I've been wondering if I'm wrong, but I never heard my father cuss until the late 1970s 
--and even then he only used "damn" and "hell," which he seemed to think should have been okay to say in front of his little granddaughter who was just developing a vocabulary (I asked him not to) but which I never heard him use in the 1950s and 60s.

It always makes me think about the documentary about the making of Jaws I watched. In the scene where Jaws is first scene, Roy Scheider has a line right before it where he refers to shoveling "some of this shit." And SS said at that time, the use of the word shit would have been so much more unusual in a movie that he knew the audience would giggle when he said it--so be doubly surprised at a jump scare right after it.

Of course, he wasn't saying that people didn't swear themselves ever, but like is said here, it wasn't as casual so you didn't expect to hear it everywhere. I can deal with Perry and Della having a specific relationship where they swear around each other, but they wouldn't with everyone. (Meanwhile they made a point of having Perry use the N-word the first season and that was unnecessary!)

[paigow]

Holcomb is not rich... Ozzie would have outed him to Paul during the interrogation.

[Dminches]

On 4/11/2023 at 5:23 PM, shapeshifter said:

 

BTW, when we saw someone trying to break in again, the arm looked to thin to be Pete's.

If you are referring to the scene where someone tries to break into Perry’s apartment (again), that was Pete.  He cut his finger and ran into the woman in the hallway.

 

[paigow]

On 4/12/2023 at 3:55 PM, tennisgurl said:

It feels like she's always got an angle, she didn't exactly look happy when Della said she was moving in, even though it was her idea.

Did script writers make a lot of money during The Depression? She drives a super fancy car and lives in a fancy house... and never seems to be working much...