S03.E07: Part Seven - Dominion

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Crippled, cornered, and out of options, Picard stages a gambit to trap Vadic and reveal her true motive, a gamble that puts the Titan in the crosshairs and forces Picard and Beverly to question every moral code they've ever held.

Dropping Thursday, March 30, 2023.

[Prevailing Wind]

What the hell did I just watch?  Did anything really happen? I recall a lot of noise & force fields, but I got very little out of the episode.

[Peace 47]

That Geordi-(Lore)-Data scene where Geordi was pouring his heart out, trying to reach Data, made me actually tear up.   How moving that he got a second chance to say the things he never got to say before.  I have always loved their friendship.  But knowing Data’s wish to be let go from S1, it added an extra layer of sadness that some version of his consciousness is having to endure this torture.  

I hope Tuvok isn’t dead, but for all the Starfleet officers that have been replaced by Changelings to date, doesn’t that seem to be the outcome for them, based on what we’ve seen?  I guess we will be seeing Janeway soon since they mention her every other episode.  
 

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

That Geordi-(Lore)-Data scene where Geordi was pouring his heart out, trying to reach Data, made me actually tear up.   How moving that he got a second chance to say the things he never got to say before.  I have always loved their friendship.  But knowing Data’s wish to be let go from S1, it added an extra layer of sadness that some version of his consciousness is having to endure this torture.  

Is it torture?  It's one thing to be trapped without a body, it's quite another to be sharing a new one with your evil brother.  If this Data says that this new life is a living hell and please put me out of my misery it's not going to land the same way.

In this episode hooking up Data/Lore backfired (geez, who could have seen that coming?), so I'm assuming that next week Data will save the day.

Chin'toka is where the original Defiant was destroyed, so I guess Starfleet decided leaving the scraps of all the ships lost that day right there was easier than trying to recycle it.  Makes you wonder how many similar locations there are thanks to the Dominion War.

Forgot to mention that Seven and Shaw have busted out the "on the run" variant of the Starfleet uniform. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by cambridgeguy

[Francie]

I can't seem to set the bar low enough. 

I think I may have have been subjected to Spock time from Wrath of Khan. When Marina said she spent two months filming this season, she really meant two weeks, didn't she? 

As a Deanna Troi fan, this show has been nothing more than click bait. 

[paigow]

Jack is a mind reader... that means Troi is his mother!

14 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

I hope Tuvok isn’t dead... 

If Harry Kim is still around, Seven can truth test him with all his sexual fantasies about her....

Has Intrepid been destroyed with no survivors? Any Titan crew member should have informed Starfleet that Picard is still on the Titan.

Therefore, regardless of any bio-scans, Starfleet Security at Frontier Day should know that:

• Picard cannot be in 2 places at once
• Picard is a fugitive to be arrested on sight

[FloatOn]

I have a feeling that the last three episodes have a lot of Deanna, just based on a few things. However, this show's disinterest in her character is really one of the low points here.

Now Jack can read minds of course. What a dud character for the most part. And we still of course, with only three episodes left, have no idea about anything going on with him.

It was nice to see Tuvok again.

[greekmom]

I don't buy what show is selling.
That Starfleet experimented on sentient beings even though they were prisoners of war.  Screw you show that you are rewriting the Dominion war. Federation gave the cure to the Changelings in exchange for the end of the war. Picard had absolutely nothing to do with the Dominion war. This should have been a Sisko story.

So Jack can read minds. And? 
Well are we saying goodbye to Captain Douchebag? Those fools let the ship be taken over?  What a bunch of horseshit with 3 episodes left.
 

[Francie]

18 minutes ago, greekmom said:

This should have been a Sisko story.

Absolutely agree, though I come to that conclusion from the opposite direction. I have no clue what the Dominion War was all about. I don't know who Tuvak was. Neither has anything to do with TNG. 

I think of the showrunner as a teen ager asking their parents (Paramount+) to use the car (show) so that he can go to the library (TNG)to study. The teen does swing by the library, but only to pick up his friends and take them to the quarry or arcade or wherever else (all these other Star Trek shows being mined for memberberries). 

For those fans who enjoyed all these shows, this show is much more designed for you than it was for the likes of me. I just wish the promotional campaign had been more honest about that. But, like I said before, it's been all click bait. 

35 minutes ago, FloatOn said:

I have a feeling that the last three episodes have a lot of Deanna

I'm sure there's some "pivotal" moment. And then likely relegation to being a potted plant in group scenes. 

The bar is gone altogether. I have no faith in, or respect for, these showrunners. 

[Zaffy]

The weakest of the lot so far. I would give it 6.5 / 10.
It felt boring and repetitive, although we did learn some new things like how the Changelings were created, it is always a lab, right??
Vadic has started to give on my nerves and not because she is a good villain, but because we get too much of her. 

Oh the Data mess... 
Hey, we have an android apparently capable of the taking control of spaceships that has multiple personalities, one of which is Lore, a persona that hates everyone and everything, so let's let this android loose in the ship without any restrains. What could go wrong?
Right Geordi? You were crying because you missed your old pal Data or for realizing what an idiot you were? I honestly wanted DataLore to open that door and slap Geordi while giggling at him.

And we have Jack... the more the season progress the more I think that at the end of it Jack will be transformed into Michael Burhham. He is already half way there.

[Prevailing Wind]

Well. Pluto's TNG channel is showing "Future Imperfect" where that "kid" makes Riker believe he's forgotten 16 years of his life. When Riker & Troi first arrive at Riker's quarters, the kid is practicing the trombone - and he's playing Three Blind Mice.  That's it!  Whistling Evil Lab Woman is that big-eyed alien that was abandoned on that planet that Riker befriended after the holograms ended.  Makes about as much sense as anything else I've seen on my TV.

That said, I do appreciate the A in Picard being the Starfleet emblem.

[greekmom]

3 hours ago, Francie said:

Absolutely agree, though I come to that conclusion from the opposite direction. I have no clue what the Dominion War was all about. I don't know who Tuvak was. Neither has anything to do with TNG. 

I think of the showrunner as a teen ager asking their parents Paramount+) to use the car (show) so that he can go to the library (TNG)to study. The teen does swing by the library, but only to pick up his friends and take them to the quarry or arcade or wherever else (all these other Star Trek shows being mined for memberberries). 

For those fans who enjoyed all these shows, this show is much more designed for you than it was for the likes of me. I just wish the promotional campaign had been more honest about that. But, like I said before, it's been all click bait. 

I'm sure there's some "pivotal" moment. And then likely relegation to being a potted plant in group scenes. 

The bar is gone altogether. I have no faith in, or respect for, these showrunners. 

As a fan of both Voyager and DS9 (the Dominion War was really great writing) I can assure you that this current mess is not for me. I always said that they need to do Renegades as an actual Trek series.  But I agree, the whole thing is click bait.

BTW - is Three Blind Mice and Pop goes the Weasel the ONLY children tunes to have survived into the 24th century?

Edited March 30, 2023 by greekmom

[MissLucas]

Yeah, inviting an enemy force on board a ship while at the same time experimenting with an evil AI is a pure stroke of genius. But then what can you expect from people who don't know how to switch on the lights?

More retconning, more bad lighting, more grimdark Starfleet, more questions without answers, more bland appealing to nostalgia 🤷‍♂️

[Peace 47]

I really did like the Data-Geordi scene as I posted above, just because it was the only time this season that I have been moved like that, and I didn’t think that Geordi (my co-favorite TNG character, and maybe my only favorite character left, now that Beverly’s morality has been so thoroughly crapped upon, which I stand by is her defining trait) ever got his due in the movies or a truly emotional acknowledgment of how Data’s death affected him (as it was all about Picard).  So I stand by my enthusiasm for that.

But I don’t disagree with all the posts that follow, taking issue with the writing/plotting/pacing.  And I get that Amanda Plummer is making “Choices” in her acting here, but while she was chewing the scenery like there was no tomorrow at the end, I was like, can’t we go spend time with Will, Deanna and Worf, and Picard can just fill us in later with 2 sentences on what it took Vadik about 10 minutes to get out?

I did like the score at the end.  It’s been a little bombastic at times, but I liked the motif there. 
 

[Affogato]

11 hours ago, greekmom said:

I don't buy what show is selling.
That Starfleet experimented on sentient beings even though they were prisoners of war.  Screw you show that you are rewriting the Dominion war. Federation gave the cure to the Changelings in exchange for the end of the war. Picard had absolutely nothing to do with the Dominion war. This should have been a Sisko story.
 

They are not rewriting the dominion war. This was one of the darker parts of the DS9 Federation, yes, this is exactly what Section 31 would have done. Whether the cure was given or stolen, yes Section 31 would have kept and experimented on some of the changelings. In DS9 it was clear a lot of high level Federation people knew about this and looked the other way, but some didn't. It makes sense that Picard would be one of the 'good' ones.

I don't think it should have been a Sisko story, because Sisko's story was resolved. Also the corruption of the Federation ideals wasn't a story limited to DS9.

Was that Michael Dorn's voice as the 'face' from Vaddic's hand, talking about bringing down the honor of the federation?  Now, Worf has a limited role so far and having him do the voice work for the face in Vaddic's hand doesn't mean that it is Worf speaking, but it is an interesting thought. Of course, he seemed involved in the resistance....

I had wondered if Vaddic was, oh, from the future and unaware that the Dominion war was finished, or several other possibilities, but she is still talking to the hand, and it clearly is not her and clearly is her superior.

We got a lot of new information in this episode and the show is actually getting interesting, for those of us who like a political drama.

There is mustache twirling, which means that it is just possible that some of the people who are currently changelings may have been kept somewhere so they can see the fall of the Federation, and so may have survived this.

Jack is still getting a lot more attention and confusing detail than he would seem to warrant, even as Picard's son. I can't think of anything that could happen to justify it.  I do think the actor is doing a good job, though, but there isn't enough time to develop all the new and old characters.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Affogato

[Prevailing Wind]

1 hour ago, Peace 47 said:

I did like the score at the end.  It’s been a little bombastic at times, but I liked the motif there. 

I always thought the TNG theme was too militaristic. A show about exploration deserved a more elegant melody.

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

They are not rewriting the dominion war. This was one of the darker parts of the DS9 Federation, yes, this is exactly what Section 31 would have done. Whether the cure was given or stolen, yes Section 31 would have kept and experimented on some of the changelings. In DS9 it was clear a lot of high level Federation people knew about this and looked the other way, but some didn't. It makes sense that Picard would be one of the 'good' ones.

I don't think it should have been a Sisko story, because Sisko's story was resolved. Also the corruption of the Federation ideals wasn't a story limited to DS9.

A true Sisko story would have involved the Romulans figuring out how he and Garak duped them into joining the war, and the fallout from that. 

I completely agree S31 would have experimented on changelings regardless of whether they were POWs or not. They developed a virus (which was fairly painful, from what we saw) designed to wipe out the entire species, so what's stopping them from experimenting on some live prisoners?  Their goal seems kind of stupid (were you planning to brainwash them into working for you too?) but they wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it.  To paraphrase a Bashir and Sloan conversation, you don't let the current war stop you from prepping for the next one. 

Plus let's not forget the Federation didn't exactly offer the cure to the Changelings the moment they found out about it.  Bashir and O'Brien stole it for Odo and Odo was the one who gave it to the female Changeling with the promise of taking it back to the Great Link.  Yes, the Federation went along with it, but they had to be forced into action.

How is it a Picard story?  Maybe it's shaping up to be a situation where he makes a big speech about what the Federation is supposed to stand for. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by cambridgeguy

[Francie]

35 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

A true Sisko story would have involved the Romulans figuring out how he and Garak duped them into joining the war, and the fallout from that. 

I completely agree S31 would have experimented on changelings regardless of whether they were POWs or not. They developed a virus (which was fairly painful, from what we saw) designed to wipe out the entire species, so what's stopping them from experimenting on some live prisoners?  Their goal seems kind of stupid (were you planning to brainwash them into working for you too?) but they wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it.  To paraphrase a Bashir and Sloan conversation, you don't let the current war stop you from prepping for the next one.

How is it a Picard story?  Maybe it's shaping up to be a situation where he makes a big speech about what the Federation is supposed to stand for. 

I mean this in the most light-hearted way possible. Being a TNG fan who eschewed Rick Berman's creations, I comprehend your post like a cat understanding humans:

A true Sisko story [incomprehensible] Romulans [incomprehensible].

[incomprehensible] Bashir and [incomprehensible]

[incomprehensible] Picard [incomprehensible] Federation [incomprehensible]. 

35 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

How is it a Picard story?  Maybe it's shaping up to be a situation where he makes a big speech about what the Federation is supposed to stand for.

Okay, okay, I do get that last sentence -- maybe. But if the final episode it about a Star Fleet officer making a big speech, wouldn't that make it a Scott Bakula final episode of Enterprise story (I'm not looking up his name, but I do know he had a dog named Porthos)? 

Look, I mention that only because then, maybe just maybe, I'll finally get to see Troi and Riker in the same room. 

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

for those of us who like a political drama

I love political dramas! I don't know what this show is, but I do love political dramas. 

43 minutes ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I always thought the TNG theme was too militaristic. A show about exploration deserved a more elegant melody.

Yes, but have you ever heard the cast of TNG sing the theme song they made up to it? It's mainly them singing their own names, and it ends with "and sometimes Wil Wheaton too." 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Francie

[Prevailing Wind]

2 hours ago, Francie said:

Scott Bakula final episode of Enterprise story (I'm not looking up his name, but I do know he had a dog named Porthos)? 

Captain Jonathan Archer and, yes, the beagle was Porthos.

[paigow]

When Enterprise D crashed into a cosmic string, Riker used Data to signal Troi by directly connecting his brain into the main computer.

Even the early positronic brain versions could handle Starfleet OS.

[dovegrey]

4 hours ago, Francie said:

Being a TNG fan who eschewed Rick Berman's creations, I comprehend your post like a cat understanding humans

Similar over here. I never got into DS9 and didn't like the direction it took Starfleet (didn't like Moore's take on BSG after season 1, either, FWIW), especially compared to TNG. But I enjoyed the more optimistic and typically idealistic Voyager, so I'm kind of geeking out about those little moments. But the DS9 stuff? I seriously don't care.

I think this season ultimately wants to be the MCU of Star Trek and tie all the 90's shows into a big story, but it's (1) stuck in the framework of the show revolving around JPL, which isn't working; and (2) it's majorly suffering because the writers aren't good at writing the legacy characters.

[KeithJ]

Why does Jack have the only phaser that disintegrates changelings?

[Cattoy]

I think this episode is all the explanation needed as to why the reviewers were only given the first 6 to watch.

Vadik is getting to be too much. Someone seriously needed to tell Plummer to mellow out. Jack is boring. He was boring before, he's boring now and nothing the show can do will making him not boring. Stop telling us he's supposed to be so damn special and explain what the hell is going on. I can see some idiot on the writing them saying, "Oh, let's make Picard part Q" ...

Do you have a fail an IQ test to get into Star Fleet? The sheer number of stupid decisions made is making it harder and harder to put up with this. As much as I loved the nostalgia and chemistry of seeing (part of) the old gang together, there's a limit to how much bad writing I'll tolerate. This had the potential to be excellent.  It's a shame something better will never come along and it's going to end on such a bad note.

And where's the damn DS9 call backs? We had Odo mentioned, not even by name. The Dominion War is all that we're getting? Where's Dax, Worf's ex? Where's Bashir, the genetically engineered human who knows more about Changeling biology than anyone else they're going to find? Are they going to at least mention O'Brien, who started out on the Enterprise?

 

[chaifan]

11 hours ago, Francie said:

For those fans who enjoyed all these shows, this show is much more designed for you than it was for the likes of me. I just wish the promotional campaign had been more honest about that. But, like I said before, it's been all click bait. 

Yep.  This has been my main problem with the season.  It's not "Picard".  It's the "TNG/Voyager Reunion Show".  If they had created out a separate show, made it a limited (one season) series, and marketed it as such, I think I'd be enjoying this more.  I liked TNG, I liked Voyager.  But I liked "Picard" seasons 1 and 2 because it wasn't a TNG reunion.  It was Picard.  And knowing this is the last season of Picard, I feel like I've been cheated out of a season of Picard. 

 

[AWhittle]

You all write with such wit!!!

It would be nice to see Sisko. Where is he now? Is he still ascended in the wormhole? He should be back after all this time.

At the very least, TNG now acknowledges the Dominion War. All we heard before was just a passing sentence in one of the TNG movies. I see a "Chekov's Gun", when Dr. Beverly mentioned something she studied that she can weaponize on the Changelings in the  beginning. Can't take them all out one at a time. Must be a kill switch, like Aria Stark stabbing the head ice zombie. I wonder who or what that would be?

Never plug in a multiple personality android! Then again Fed tech is so easy to hack...

So far this year, we have identity mystery in Picard, and apparently the next MCU show Secret Invasion. 

[rtms77]

Last I checked, neither Picard nor Janeway had anything to do with The Changlings, the virus, the war or the cure. Did Starfleet let Section 31 get away with things? Of course , we knew this during DS9 and onward. Can Starfleet HQ get corrupt? Yes, Undiscovered Counrty showed that some of those Admirals could be corrupt. Heck Ro was introduced in an episode involving a corrupt Admiral. Again though, Picard and Janway don’t seem to have had anything to do with what happened to Vadic. Janway was away, Picard was almost retired I think (please correct me, it has been a long time and DS9 was not big for me) .As Shaw said Picard was battling Borg, breaking the PD to kiss the girl, and having yet another wack out son/ clone he didn’t know about. Yet Janeway has been name dropped in almost every ep, but is too busy to even talk to 7 of 9? Oooh ok . If Vadic had something against Worf and the DS9 crew I could understand the anger,  but focus on Picard is really stretching it . Pun intended.

So now Jack can read minds and telepathically control people? I hate when characters are introduced as special snowflakes who can do anything. Telepathic, fights like a android with incredible strength (which failed him here…plot hole), has visions etc. Come on this is getting too much. At this point I’m wondering why Picard was so dull with this disease because apparently it turns you into a superhero. Also Jack and Crash, Crash and Jack? I didn’t see that developing. 
 

Well I can understand why Starfleet and Geordi are clueless about helping Data, since the Synth banning and uprising they just utterly fled and shut such things down. If only they had Agnes around. Or ya know 7 who still can interface with computers and such. Heck get Soshi on the job or go to the Synth planet. They could kick Lores butt and sort Data head out in a few minutes. 
 

Once again Worf and Raffi are gone, along with no Riker or follow up really. Vadic did say neither seemed cooperative but who knows

Vadic is either scared or untrusted by the rest of the Link because the way she acted in the beginning was more terrified than smooth and in control. Something is not adding up. 
 

So here is my whacked out Theory  about Jack. I think he a genetic experiment of several DNAs, with Changlings, along with Picard old crew. Sigh idk at this point everything is on the table. 

Edited March 31, 2023 by rtms77

[Stardancer Supreme]

Yay for Tuvok! Too bad he was already compromised.  I'm a Voyager fan, so I liked it. So in spite of Geordi's refusals, there are enough Changelings in Starfleet to usher the ENTIRE FLEET of ships to an almost certain death.  Frontier Day is in mere hours; how is Picard going to make a speech if he is a fugitive?  (I don't want to think too much on that...)

Did anybody bother to tell Worf and Raffi that Will is on the Shrike? Sigh.

So whatever is going on with Picard and Jack goes way beyond Irumodic Syndrome. I'm still getting Pah-Wraithian hints here.

While I love Vadic chewing the scenery to shreds, I want to know what happened to Will and "Troi".  I had to turn the captions on because everyone was talking so low!  Why does Vadic's superior want Jack? Ugh.

8 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

A true Sisko story would have involved the Romulans figuring out how he and Garak duped them into joining the war, and the fallout from that. 

I completely agree S31 would have experimented on changelings regardless of whether they were POWs or not. They developed a virus (which was fairly painful, from what we saw) designed to wipe out the entire species, so what's stopping them from experimenting on some live prisoners?  Their goal seems kind of stupid (were you planning to brainwash them into working for you too?) but they wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it.  To paraphrase a Bashir and Sloan conversation, you don't let the current war stop you from prepping for the next one. 

Plus let's not forget the Federation didn't exactly offer the cure to the Changelings the moment they found out about it.  Bashir and O'Brien stole it for Odo and Odo was the one who gave it to the female Changeling with the promise of taking it back to the Great Link.  Yes, the Federation went along with it, but they had to be forced into action.

How is it a Picard story?  Maybe it's shaping up to be a situation where he makes a big speech about what the Federation is supposed to stand for. 

 

Yeah, I totally believed that Picard didn't know half of the shady shyt that Section 31 was up to.  That's pretty much SOP for them.  This part of the story definitely needed DS9 folks like Bashir involved.

2 hours ago, KeithJ said:

Why does Jack have the only phaser that disintegrates changelings?

 

Because he clearly intends to kill his enemies and everybody else is set to stun.  I startled my son by yelling for Sydney to kill Vadic's head lackey. I was glad that they didn't kill her when they had her dead to rights.  On a side note, Alandra is stuck to Geordi's side always, isn't she? That kind of enmeshment seems strange to me.  And still no mention of his wife in that heartfelt speech to DataLore... 

With the amount of times Admiral Janeway has been mentioned in almost every episode, we should be seeing Kate Mulgrew by the series finale. A high ranking admiral that nobody can get in touch with or close to? Smells like a stunt to me. 

[Peace 47]

8 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I always thought the TNG theme was too militaristic. A show about exploration deserved a more elegant melody.

I should clarify that I meant that I liked the score that played in-episode towards the end of it (rather than me commenting on the TNG theme that plays at the actual end during the credits).  I liked the score so much, in fact, that I went back to the 34-ish minute mark of the episode tonight and watched through to the end just to hear it again.  I like driving, escalating, minor-key string/ piano music like that.  The TNG theme itself is very John Williams Superman theme-reminiscent to me, which makes sense since they were originally composed in the same era (the TNG theme is from the original motion picture, right?)

[dwmarch]

Well, nice to see Tuvok again, even if it's a fake version of him. Apparently he is a Captain now.

This episode reminded me a lot of 24 and not in a good way. Intricate commando-squad tactics that the baddies immediately flip. Everyone talking in riddles to extend the mystery to the next episode. An unstoppable countdown clock to a doomsday device (Lore) and another unstoppable countdown clock to the arbitrary dumb event that everyone is still going to attend despite the terrorist threat. Moles and traitors everywhere. The villains have now taken over and our heroes are going to have to pull some desperate moves at the last minute. We even had a scene with a call being traced. And this does all center around a character named Jack who is not quite right in the head and who kills almost everyone he sees.

[Francie]

I'd like to clarify that I have nothing against DS9 or Voyager. I just never watched them. 

TNG came along when I was a teen and ended when I was in college. I didn't watch from the beginning, but rather I happened to catch an episode about midway through that drew my attention. I'm not naturally drawn to sci fi, but I don't dislike it either. The great thing about futuristic sci fi is that it can realize a better world, especially a more egalitarian world. The big negative I find is that it's overrun with horny men (is that redundant?) behind the scenes who take advantage of the futuristic setting for exploitative purposes (I'm side eyeing Roddenberry because both that positive and negative apply to his show and him). 

When I started watching TNG I was a teen going through some upheaval at home, and a lot of caretaking responsibility for my younger siblings was dumped on me. TNG showed me what a professional work environment -- one I was about to embark on in a couple years -- should look like. Women weren't asked to get coffee and the men didn't belittle them. While the women of TNG were limited to the medical professions, because of the nature of the issues they were dealing with, they were often part of the conversation in that conference room. And, because it was set in the future, there wasn't the 80s/90s kind of sexual harassment that women were considered humorless if they didn't put up with it. I compare it with the other big drama that also ran from the 1980s until 1994, L.A. Law. Even though I eventually became a lawyer, that show wasn't a template for anything for me. TNG was.

TNG was a weekly grounding experience. And sometimes, like with a Fistful of Datas, it was a bit silly and made me laugh. And quite often it gave me an entire 45 minute theatrical play that blew me away (Defector, Darmok, Inner Light, Chain of Command, Tapestry, to name a few). And there was a little romance for this teen to ship with Troi and Riker. 

I was an adult by the time the other shows came around, and I never had the sense that they had the same tone or core philosophy of everyone having respect for their fellow colleagues. So, yeah, it was just TNG for me. Those characters meant a lot to me. So it makes me sad how little the show has taken advantage of having all seven of them back together again. This show had bout 600 minutes of content to fill -- 600 minutes! -- and what they've chosen to do with it is do donuts in the parking lot, killing time with redundant dialogue and scenarios and meaningless forced mini-dramas that amount to nothing. And a lot of references to things that spark no interest for me. We're still dealing with a single plot point: some unidentified something wants to capture Jack Crusher to destroy the Federation. That's the only significant thing that's happened in about 400 minutes of content. 

This is my long-winded way of saying that, while I will continue to balk and tease and critique the references to these other shows, I know they meant a lot to others and seeing things like that guy, Tupac or whatever, talking with that blond woman was a treat for some of you. And I'm not trying to attack that. For me, though, it was just a guy I didn't know talking to a woman I didn't know, and nothing came of it that I needed to know. And that was another 3 to 5 minutes taken off the clock. 

[Frozendiva]

13 hours ago, greekmom said:

As a fan of both Voyager and DS9 (the Dominion War was really great writing) I can assure you that this current mess is not for me. I always said that they need to do Renegades as an actual Trek series.  But I agree, the whole thing is click bait.

BTW - is Three Blind Mice and Pop goes the Weasel the ONLY children tunes to have survived into the 24th century?

I am waiting for Ring Around the Roses.

I had some sound issues with CTVScifi’s feed.

Seven is good at getting the fakes to make mistakes.

Not much happened except for more of who is Jack Crusher? Does Frontier Day start next ep or is this all going to be like Babylon 5 and the war that never happened? 

[Francie]

On 3/30/2023 at 9:32 PM, rtms77 said:

Last I checked, neither Picard nor Janeway had anything to do with The Changlings, the virus, the war or the cure

As far as I can discern, this show is a TNG/Voyager crossover show with a DS9 plotline.*

*Albeit a 20- to 40-minute plotline spread over 600 minutes. 

So is Crazy Amanda supposed to be a moustache-twirling, over-the-top can't take her seriously kind of villain, which is how she plays her most of the time. 

Or is she supposed to be relatable and sympathetic? Or do these modern-day "I learned storytelling from J.J. Abrams Ted Talk on the Mystery Box" writers give every villain get a back story now? 

[paigow]

This is the plot of Alien 4 - Experiment mixing Xenomorph & Human DNA to create a more controllable soldier... Oops, it only worked on Ripley 2.0 and the other attempts are killing everyone... Trust Goldsman to rip off the worst movie in a good franchise...

[thuganomics85]

Tuvok!  Well, not really, since he ended up being a Changeling in the end, but it was great seeing Tim Russ again (fun fact: before Voyager, he also appeared in The Next Generation episode, Starship Mine), and I'm glad that Tuvok will apparently go on to be a captain as well.  Hopefully the Changeling wasn't lying and he really is just captured and being used for now.  Also got some more Janeway name-drops, so I really wouldn't be surprised if she shows up at some point (my best guess?  Finale time!)

While I still find the Changelings to be more unique antagonists and am interested in dipping into the Dominion War again, it is kind of strange that they are doing all of this on this show, because I really don't remember Picard really being involved in all of that.  It would probably be more impactful if this story was involving Sisko or other Deep Space Nine crew members.  Almost feels like the new showrunner really wants to explore more of DS9's history (and maybe a bit of Voyager), but instead of giving him his own show, the executives just tossed him this one and he decided to try and incorporate all of this into Picard's story.  And I'm just not quite sure it all adds up.  I also wonder if maybe there was an initial plan to involve Odo himself, but that couldn't happen due to Rene Auberjonois' passing.

Weird that we didn't check on what happened to Riker and Troi.  As of now, Troi/Marina Sirtis seems to have gotten the short end of this reunion stick so far.

Yeah, Geordi, love you but if you know that your new, fancy android has split personalities and one of them is a diabolical dick, maybe don't connect him to the computer in a way where he can access important things and fuck everything up.  Brent Spiner was having a ball flipping back and forth between Data and Lore.  And I'm glad we did at least get some good moments about the relationship between Geordi and Data because I always loved their friendship.

Really thought there was going to be another twist, but nope: apparently Picard's entire plan was to pretend the Titan was dead in the water, let Vardic and her crew board and be captured, so naturally it all blows up in their face.  Probably should have spent more time at the drawling board there, Cap.

I get why it doesn't work for some, but I continue to love Amanda Plummer's scenery chewing and camp.

At least Shaw isn't dead yet, but I do think he's being set-up as an eventual sacrifice of some kind.

Still wish I could care more about Jack.

I'm guessing Worf and Raffi being away is going to play into them getting the ship back, but I'm already looking forward to Worf's "I was gone for ten minutes and y'all already get yourselves captured?!" reaction.  No doubt some major mediation will be needed then!

[khiori sakkhet]

They're really amping up the tension and building up the anticipation episode by episode. I hope the mystery of who Jack really is amounts to something good. Irumodic syndrome was mentioned as only a disease and why it was uncurable was never explained. Though a quick search revealed in memory beta the origins of it, I hope it's more than the changelings wanting to control timelines and predict future events that Jack's capture is relevant to. Previous comments have found similarities in the plot of other series and ST:Picard and I will add "Edge of Tomorrow" to that list.

Edited March 31, 2023 by khiori sakkhet

[Chyromaniac]

13 hours ago, Affogato said:

Was that Michael Dorn's voice as the 'face' from Vaddic's hand, talking about bringing down the honor of the federation?

“The Face” is credited as Garth Kemp, who- as far as I can tell- is a voiceover guy in LA.  My guess is that it’s only going to be a CGI character, so they didn’t need a recognizable performer for the role (Trek alumnus or otherwise).

4 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

The TNG theme itself is very John Williams Superman theme-reminiscent to me, which makes sense since they were originally composed in the same era (the TNG theme is from the original motion picture, right?)

Correct- it’s by composer Jerry Goldsmith for Star Trek 1, and was adapted to be the TNG theme.  I believe the version here specifically is the end credits music for the First Contact film (also Goldsmith).

Overall this wasn’t my favorite episode thus far, but not the worst either.  And, I felt there were still some good moments along the way.  I think the most interesting stuff was what we learned about the new Changelings- the idea of them being S31 test subjects is unexpected, but not entirely surprising.  The only thing that didn’t entirely track was how Beverly and Picard realized Vadic looked like the 31 scientist- maybe they cut a scene that would have bridged to that line.

Otherwise, it was interesting to hear Beverly weigh the ethics of targeting the Changelings’ biology - she was always against that sort of thing on TNG (for example, she was against using Hugh to infect the Borg with malware), so it’s good that they let her question her own thinking.  If she had been more gung-ho, it would have felt off.

Levar’s big scene was really touching- and, I feel like Brent is doing a better job channeling both Lore and Data now, than in Season 1.  This Data feels like the character we left in Nemesis, while S1 was more like the TV version.  I think Ed has been really underrated so far this season, but I think they’ve played out the Jack Crusher mystery as far as it can go.  Finally, I think Tuvok was the right choice for a cameo here- having him revealed as a Changeling was a great moment for both Tim and Jeri.

[Prevailing Wind]

While trying to fall asleep, it came to me that the other Crusher Super Human is gonna show up, erase all the evil, and set everything right again. And where the hell is Guinan?  I really miss O'Brien, but I can understand Meaney not wanting to be a part of this shit show.

[dovegrey]

7 hours ago, Francie said:

As far as I can discern, this show is a TNG/Voyager crossover show with a DS9 plotline.

Seven has been on Picard since season one. She’s one of the few last OGs of this specific show’s original cast (more or less), who happened to come from Voyager. This is kind of like surmising that DS9 was a TNG crossover because it had Worf and Miles and that one time Picard guest starred (like Tuvok here). If anything, it’s reading to me like a bad TNG rip off fanfic with a DS9 tie-in. 😉 We’ll see how much Janeway has to do in the last few episodes (if anything), because they certainly could make this into a Voyager fest. 

FWIW and related to your earlier post - I grew up in a chaotic and unpleasant household and latched onto TNG as a young kid. No interpersonal conflicts, respect for each other, tidy resolutions and happy endings, people doing good things because that’s what you do, and stalwart nonreactive solutions to bad situations? Sign me up. I learned a lot of who I am from TNG. These people on this show are not those people. I feel like I’ve met my heroes and everything was a lie. And they’ve also messed up Seven, so at least it’s everyone. 

[greekmom]

8 hours ago, rtms77 said:

So here is my whacked out Theory  about Jack. I think he a genetic experiment of several DNAs, with Changlings, along with Picard old crew. Sigh idk at this point everything is on the table. 

And impregnated Bev without her knowledge? I can see it in this show as it's jumped the shark into Soapdom. 

8 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

So whatever is going on with Picard and Jack goes way beyond Irumodic Syndrome. I'm still getting Pah-Wraithian hints here.

Yeah, I totally believed that Picard didn't know half of the shady shyt that Section 31 was up to.  That's pretty much SOP for them.  This part of the story definitely needed DS9 folks like Bashir involved.

Either the Pah-Wraithians or Sela.  Isn't the Romulans due to the Dominion war outcome now somewhat friendly with the Federation?  That would be a thorn in Sela's side who would want to join up with this rogue group of Changelings.  

None of the TNG or Voyager crew had anything to do with Section 31. That's why I don't understand Vadic's obsession with Picard and the TNG crew.  This is all DS9 stuff.  

While I do buy that Section 31 could have been experimenting with the Changeling POWs during the war wouldn't a peace treaty signed with the female Changeling ending the war be in agreement of exchange of POWs? Which regardless of Section 31's secrecy include those that were held there. 

Plus, how would Vadic or the rogue Changelings know about Picard's body being held at the Station? Picard left his mortal body for the android one 2 years ago.  I was under the impression that Vadic and the rest of the Changelings rose up and fought their captors at the station more than 3 years ago (the war ended 20+ yrs previously).  Well before Picard "died".   Plus, how would Odo know about them in the Great Link if they have never joined the link?  And Odo being such an upstanding person - wouldn't he have informed Kira about these Changelings if he knew about them, so that they can be brought back to the Great Link instead of left to be tortured? 

The writing sucks. Big time. 

[cardigirl]

On 3/30/2023 at 5:49 AM, Prevailing Wind said:

What the hell did I just watch?  Did anything really happen? I recall a lot of noise & force fields, but I got very little out of the episode.

Exactly my thoughts after I finished watching. I hope this isn't the vibe I feel when the show finishes. 

[paigow]

51 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Either the Pah-Wraithians or Sela.

Sisko trapped all the Pah Wraiths when he destroyed the magic spell book [and Dukat]

Sela was not a mastermind... Following her public defeat, she might have been executed or imprisoned by Romulan officials.

[Prevailing Wind]

34 minutes ago, paigow said:

Sisko trapped all the Pah Wraiths when he destroyed the magic spell book [and Dukat]

But Keiko got possessed by a P'ah Wraith before Kai Winn even thought about the book. Was that able to happen because the book was still in existence, if locked away?

I really liked DS9; I'm trying to get through Voyager, but Janeway is insufferable. (Again, that may be my bias against her for Mrs. Columbo.)  Someone above mentioned that Suzie Plakson played Mrs. Q. I've missed that so far, but holy moly, she's K'Ehleyr, Worf's mate/Alexander's Mom. Ah, the advantages of being one of the few tall actresses! (She's over 6'1")

I wish she hadn't died as K'Ehleyr. She'd kick some changeling ass, given the chance.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, dovegrey said:

his is kind of like surmising that DS9 was a TNG crossover because it had Worf and Miles and that one time Picard guest starred (like Tuvok here)

I get you're trying to make an analogy, but I have to point out DS9 was literally a spin off of TNG. They put Bashir in TNG for one episode, took a supporting character, Miles, re-interpreted Ro Laren as a new character when Michelle Forbes didn't accept their offer, and had Picard show up in the pilot to get viewers to watch it. 

In fact, it feels like 1992 all over again. TNG was a huge success, both ratings-wise and it was becoming a critical darling, and everyone's contracts were set for an 8th season. But Berman pulled the plug and canceled the show a season early to push it aside for DS9 and then Voyager. Yes, TNG got pushed 'upwards,' sorta, but maybe not really, with replacing TOS as a movie franchise. Now, here, this season was sold as TNG reunion, but the show runners immediately pushed that cast aside so that they could express their love and sentimentality for Voyager and DS9. Whether Seven was on the first season of Picard is immaterial to that when this season was sold as all about TNG. She's here in this season because of Terry Matalas's love for the character, not because there's some continuing plot point from the first season of Picard that warrants her continued presence (right? I didn't watch the first season, but she's on a new ship that nothing to do with what happened in the first season of Picard). 

1 hour ago, dovegrey said:

If anything, it’s reading to me like a bad TNG rip off fanfic with a DS9 tie-in. 

For me, there's not enough TNG content to amount to a TNG fanfic. Some of the TNG characters - especially Beverly - have been unrecognizable. Whoever expressed above their disappointment in Beverly's choices in this this episode, yes, Beverly's main characteristic was that she was always ethical. Years ago on a TNG panel, the TNG actors were asked to identify their character in one word, and Gates said, "ethical." 

The balance between ST shows is more tipped in favor of the post-TNG shows that Terry Matalas worked on than the TNG show he didn't.  This plotline with this 31 thing and the Dominion changelings or whatever. It means nothing to me. The TNG cast might as well have Darth Vader chasing after them, with ewoks are getting killed left and right, and Jack Crusher being urged to use the force. At least those references I understand. 

TNG was used as a thin veneer for whatever this show is actually about. 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Francie

[dovegrey]

13 minutes ago, Francie said:

Now, here, this season was sold as TNG reunion, but the show runners immediately pushed that cast aside so that they could express their love and sentimentality for Voyager and DS9. Whether Seven was on the first season of Picard is immaterial to that when this season was sold as all about TNG. She's here in this season because of Terry Matalas's love for the character, not because there's some continuing plot point from the first season of Picard that warrants her continued presence (right? I didn't watch the first season, but she's on a new ship that nothing to do with what happened in the first season of Picard).

This showrunner immediately pushed nearly the entire cast of season one and season two of Picard aside, with the exception of Picard, Seven, and Raffi, to make room for all these TNG cast members that have apparently also been pushed aside. I'm not going to begrudge a longstanding main cast member of Picard a smidge of a storyline because that smidge is rooted in a different Trek show; I don't get that issue. Beyond that, I don't know if you've taken the time or interest to watch any of this series beyond this one ongoing season, but this season of Picard has shit all to do with itself and its prior storylines; the entire premise of Picard, whatever that premise actually was, has been uprooted to have all these non-Picard characters take center stage. And it's not the party we all thought it'd be.

What this all means, IMO, is that this season of Picard is doing nothing for a lot of people - many Picard fans don't like it and many TNG fans don't like it, from what I've seen. Someone else said it upthread; whatever this is would have been "better" as a new limited series and not Picard season 3.

[Francie]

53 minutes ago, dovegrey said:

I'm not going to begrudge a longstanding main cast member of Picard a smidge of a storyline because that smidge is rooted in a different Trek show; I don't get that issue.

I don't begrudge Jeri Ryan. And I'm happy that her fans get to see her, whether they either like what storyline she's been given or just like seeing the actress again. I'm calling out the show -- this season, what have you -- for being a bait and switch. Don't invite a TNG trekker to a party and then not throw a TNG party. And don't have the TNG characters resemble pod versions of themselves, like the replacement Captain Picard on Allegiance. There is 600 minutes worth of content, and that would have been plenty enough to incorporate some of DS9 or Voyager characters or elements. There was certainly room for Seven. But the showrunners have squandered all this time on circular mini-I don't even know what to call what this has been. 

I think the showrunners assumed that viewers of TNG also watched the other shows, and, yeah, I'm calling them out a bit. They thought these fans who were lured back by press coverage would be melting with nostalgic tingles over this reference or that appearance. That's not the case for me, and based on the ratings of the respective series back in the 90s, that wasn't true for a lot of TNG fans. Maybe the show runners were living in a bubble about that or maybe they meant to target only the all-Berman show fans, and to hell with me and my ilk. 

And if the showrunners were going to tap plot points from other series to create the "plot" for this season, then take into account that any new viewers or TNG-only fans need to be introduced to those concepts - and hopefully in an engaging, interesting way. What made the Star Trek franchise truly a franchise was Star Trek II. If that movie had bombed, Star Trek would have gone the way of Twilight Zone or Lost in Space. And while Star Trek II was based on one specific TOS episode, the re-introduction of Khan for TOS fans and the introduction of Khan to the rest of the population who never knew he existed before that movie was masterful. That sequence on Ceti Alpha V was great great storytelling. No stupid mystery box. We learned who Khan was, why he was angry, we felt his pain (no back story flashbacks, just a tense moment of build up with the perfect touch of overlaid exposition), and we understood the stakes. Now, if the Picard showrunners wanted to tap this Dominion War with the changelings, then they need to lay it out in a way so that those of us who didn't see DS9 would become invested. That is quite clearly far beyond their capabilities. 

53 minutes ago, dovegrey said:

Beyond that, I don't know if you've taken the time or interest to watch any of this series beyond this one ongoing season

Based on what I've seen and heard, good Lord, why would I subject myself to that? I did watch parts of Nepenthe just before this season premiered. I'll let everyone guess which parts. 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Francie

[Peace 47]

11 hours ago, Francie said:

This is my long-winded way of saying that, while I will continue to balk and tease and critique the references to these other shows, I know they meant a lot to others and seeing things like that guy, Tupac or whatever, talking with that blond woman was a treat for some of you. And I'm not trying to attack that.

“Tupac” … lololol.  That was hilarious.  Yeah, I think his big hit was “Delta Quadrant Love.”

As a minor Trekkie who isn’t going to be familiar with all of the deep cuts, I still like the cameos of, and references to, historical Trek characters, ships, plots, etc., even if I don’t fully get everything until I come here and read about it or go on YouTube and watch my Emergency Awesome or Screen Crush subscriptions.  None of that is what annoys me about this season.

This is in contrast to my reaction to the currently airing season of The Mandalorian, where Star Wars fans on this site are, for example, super excited to see a cameo of a character from a Star Wars animated show I have never watched or super enthused to see the show start to weave in larger Star Wars politics.  Whereas I (who am only a fan of that one show) just want to spend 30 minutes each week with the two credited leads I care about and the cute baby.  

Similarly, in this show, in this season, all I wanted was to spend as much time as possible with the TNG cast + Seven + Sidney (whom I really like) + Shaw (who can be entertaining) and for the TNG folks to be recognizably who I knew them to be.  Gates McFadden is crushing it on the acting, but in this ep, when she and Picard decided to commit some war crimes together right before the force fields fell, I was like, who is this lady?  This lady who was anti-Borg genocide.  It’s like how I felt put off last week when Geordi came in all patriarchal and hostile, and why I was so excited this week when he was just as I remembered him with 30 years of extra life tacked on.  I don’t even really care if the plot is one of convenience (like leaving Data-Lore networked with the ship) or if it doesn’t make sense.  I just want my promised OG 7 cast members to sit around a conference table and solve a few problems together, stat … and for Beverly not to commit any war crimes.  That would be nice, too.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Peace 47

[iMonrey]

This is where I'm really getting frustrated with this show (yes, it took me this long). They are dragging out this Jack mystery way too long. It's all the more irritating when they have a character like Vadic turn to the camera and dramatically say "It's time for you to know who you really are Jack!' and then just leave us hanging. It's the narrative equivalent of "I know something you don't know neener neener neener."

They're doing the same thing with Data/Lore - he cant' get out pertinent info, he can only just begin to tease it before Lore takes over. It's frustrating and it's irritating as hell.

Also, if Lore can control the entire ship, then can't Data? He was all plugged in when Vadic took the bridge, so Geordi should just have Data take over the ship again. Problem solved! Until he turns into Lore again, that is.

Are Jack's eyes really glowing red? Why doesn't Sidney see it? She should be going "Hey! Your eyes just glowed red! What's up with that?" And if she can't see it, why do we see it?

I realize there are three (?) more episodes to go but this story should have been plotted better.

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, dovegrey said:

What this all means, IMO, is that this season of Picard is doing nothing for a lot of people - many Picard fans don't like it and many TNG fans don't like it, from what I've seen. Someone else said it upthread; whatever this is would have been "better" as a new limited series and not Picard season 3.

So in other words, many fans think they've followed the path of the Star Wars sequels.  They've ruined the existing characters, created crappy new ones, and are talent-less hacks who somehow make each successive installment worse than what came before.  I just bet they wish they could replicate the far bigger word of mouth and profitability.

[paigow]

The Boba Fett writers knew that stretching the core plot was impossible so the Grogu arc was inserted. Unfortunately, this group of hacks refused to face reality and subjected the audience to meaningless crap.

Edited March 31, 2023 by paigow

[Francie]

2 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

So in other words, many fans think they've followed the path of the Star Wars sequels.  They've ruined the existing characters, created crappy new ones, and are talent-less hacks who somehow make each successive installment worse than what came before.  I just bet they wish they could replicate the far bigger word of mouth and profitability.

It's a problem running rampant in Hollywood right now. Money is being thrown at known commodities to try to capitalize on the already existing fanbases, because the returns have to be massive in order for a show or movie to be financially successful. And there's just a lack of investment in original storytelling. The selected few men being given reins of projects -- whether it's J.J. Abrams who demanded the reins of Star Trek even though he wasn't a fan, Dan and Dave helming Game of Thrones because David Benioff's dad is a billionaire banker friend of the head of HBO and that got them a lunch with GRR Martin, or now these dudes in charge of Picard -- don't have any original thoughts of their own, and they need the pre-existing characters and universe as some sort of starting block ... or training pants. 

Just about everything designed for commercial mass consumption is a copy of something before, with Top Gun getting revisited and unnecessary remakes of past successful movies. Anything 'new' has be described in terms of "it's a cross between 'x' and 'x' and 'x.'" 

But there's no creative vision in any of these new ventures, as the visionaries who created these universes and the characters who inhabit them have passed on or are otherwise no longer involved. Well, except for J.K. Rowling, who seems to be destroying her Harry Potter universe all on her own. 

Anyway, back to Picard. I just posted in the media thread a quote from Patrick Stewart where he says there'll be a question hanging at the end, that he's not necessarily done with ST, and that he's had a falling out with some unnamed people.