All Episodes Discussion

[CelticBlackCat]

59 minutes ago, rwgrab said:

This was not "diabolical" as the episode title proclaimed.  At best, it was poorly investigated.  At worst, the police protected the US Marshal based on his word at the expense of locking up an innocent citizen.

It was Diabolical because of the crime committed:  setting up Michelle Hadley to be the crazy stalker to get her out of the way and into jail so Angela and Ian Diaz could enjoy living in the condo Ian owned with Michelle.

I too cannot believe she was incarcerated without a proper investigation.  Internet 101 teaches IP addressed can be faked, diverted through anonymous browsers, etc.  They should have had a forensic computer expert investigate all this BEFORE locking Michelle Hadley up.  She was not a violent predator that needed to be stashed away before she hurt someone else; she was allegedly targeting one person.

[Lizzing]

Locking Hadley up without the basic IP address investigation is terrible and never should have happened.  But what else bothers me about that is this: she was locked up for allegedly violating the restraining order Angela had against her, again, without investigation based on Angela's word only, and was held on $1M bond.  Personally, I think the only reason the cops went after Hadley so hard for violating the restraining order was because Ian was a LEO.  I have seen case after case of people who got restraining orders after exes (or just randoms) have harassed them, stalked them, made threats against them, and those victims get laughed out of the police station, given a restraining order that isn't enforced, or, in one terrible case, the cop called the perp to tell him they were coming for him, so the perp murdered the woman he was harassing before the cops could show up.  Just last night on 48 hours, a woman in LA had paint cans thrown through her window by her documented stalker and had to beg the cops to even take a report.  I know LA isn't Anaheim, but they're in the same state so the same laws apply.  What I'm getting at is that in this case the cops were quick to rush to judgment to lock up a woman with no criminal history on the word of the alleged victim, probably because they were doing a favor to a brother in blue, but meanwhile other people who have legitimate crimes being perpetrated against them who don't have LEO connections just have to wait until their dead or bodily injured to get the same kind of reaction.  It's incredibly disheartening.

[CaughtOnTape]

On 2/25/2017 at 10:52 AM, Ohmo said:

I guess my feeling is that there's no evidence yet to suggest to me that the police didn't "stay in their lane" when it comes to Steven.  What happened to Brendan is a different deal, but just because the cops erred with Brendan doesn't make Steven's claim true.  I believe Fassbender when he says that the scope of the tampering is unlikely given the number of agencies who were involved in the case.  I simply don't buy that everyone would get on board with helping one local police department execute (or allow) a frame-up of this scale.  Not without seeing MUCH more evidence than what Zellner has shown to this point.

ETA:

For me, there's still a lot of room between "should not have been there" and "went there and planted evidence."  What is the PROOF that this happened, or even likely happened, other than "there are corrupt cops in the United States"? (You and  I agree on Steven's guilt Christina   Your comment just made me think about proof vs. speculation.)

The mere fact that Dassey was involved at all proves they most certainly did not stay in their lane.  I don't care if there was tampering or not.  They dragged a 16 year old, mentally challenged CHILD down in order to make the case stick to Avery.  That alone is enough to cast doubt on the rest of their case against him.

[Ohmo]

5 hours ago, CaughtOnTape said:

The mere fact that Dassey was involved at all proves they most certainly did not stay in their lane.  I don't care if there was tampering or not.  They dragged a 16 year old, mentally challenged CHILD down in order to make the case stick to Avery.  That alone is enough to cast doubt on the rest of their case against him.

For which I said "stay in their lane when it comes to Steven."  Brendan and Steven are two different (although related) situations.  What happened to Brendan does not make what Steven is claiming true simply because something happened to Brendan.  Brendan's situation involved two people in a room.  Steven is alleging a vast conspiracy that would have involved multiple departments.  If Kathleen Zellner wanted to offer her services to Brendan, that I'd understand, but I don't think Steven has been wronged simply because he's associated with Brendan.  In fact, I think that is part of the scam that Steven is hoping that people buy.  "Poor Brendan, so they'll think poor Steven, too." Nope, not buying it, and I'm done.   Agree to disagree.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Ohmo
"vest" and "vast" are two different words.

[Ina123]

http://wgntv.com/2014/06/24/boy-creates-invention-to-save-babies-from-being-left-in-hot-cars/

An 11 yr old created this to alert people to get the child out of the back. I saw another one that a little girl invented that was a simple tether that velcroed between the baby seat and the driver's wrist. these are very simple.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 7:53 AM, cooksdelight said:

She sat there like she already knew. And wondering if her husband had said too much. I was really surprised that she was never arrested, back when it happened.

She did already know.  One of the people who accompanied her from the daycare told her about the news story.  He told her that Ross's car was shown, and the report was a child was dead.  So she knew before the cops confirmed it.

[CaughtOnTape]

22 hours ago, Ohmo said:

For which I said "stay in their lane when it comes to Steven."  Brendan and Steven are two different (although related) situations.  What happened to Brendan does not make what Steven is claiming true simply because something happened to Brendan.  Brendan's situation involved two people in a room.  Steven is alleging a vest conspiracy that would have involved multiple departments.  If Kathleen Zellner wanted to offer her services to Brendan, that I'd understand, but I don't think Steven has been wronged simply because he's associated with Brendan.  In fact, I think that is part of the scam that Steven is hoping that people buy.  "Poor Brendan, so they'll think poor Steven, too." Nope, not buying it, and I'm done.   Agree to disagree.

Brendan's confession is a good percentage of the reason Steven was put behind bars.  So...not really separate but....ok.

And if they were disgusting enough to take down a kid, it's not such a stretch to believe an entire county and multiple departments would have participated in making sure he got convicted.

Look, I'm not saying I believe one way or the other about whether he did it.  I'm just saying for all the doubt cast on Avery, there is AMPLE evidence to suggest the cops weren't exactly among the virtuous in their own handling of things.  My point stands...sorry if that upsets you.

Edited February 28, 2017 by CaughtOnTape

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 4:30 AM, biakbiak said:

Seriously! Though at least he should know to buy a burner phone. I realize bail situations differ but the fact that hers was a $1 million with no actual physical evidence that she was involved and Angela faced no physical harm,I found it extreme. I don't know if people realize exactly how bail works, I didn't until a friend got arested on a bullshit charge with much smaller bail that got thrown out but if you put up bond and not cash you are out that money forever. So her parents/family would have had to pay $100k without ever having recourse to get that reimbursemed even though the evidence was iffy. If you pay the million you will get it back.

 Given the condo I can't imagine they didn't have cameras on the garage and it's not difficult to trace ip addresses. Seriously she is going to get paid. 

Does anyone know what Angela's kidnapping charge was for? 

The bail amount was bizarre.  I wonder if it's because she's a woman.  I have not independently researched the statistics, but I've long read that women are more likely to be convicted for murder than men, and the sentences are typically longer.  Something to do with the expectation that women should be held to a higher standard.  Boys will be boys, and women should be gentle by nature.  I believe mothers who kill their children have longer sentences as well, when mental illness is so frequently a contributor, unlike men murdering their children. 

Like I said, I've not researched the veracity of these theories.  But anecdotal evidence leads me to believe there's truth there.

[cooksdelight]

I was surprised the cops didn't immediately search the IP numbers to find out where the emails originated from, before throwing the girl in jail. That had me shaking my head, because I'm no computer expert but I know IPs can show where something is sent from. I figured out by accident that photos texted to me show up on my iPad with a map of exactly where the person was standing when they took/sent the photo. Busted one guy who lied to me once about where he was, LOL!!

I do believe that since Ian was in law enforcement, he probably had the cops on his side.... but sloppy work by them not to investigate the IPs quicker.

[Christina]

Brendan didn't come into Steven's trial, at all. He didn't testify and the information he provided was not used. The malpractice of his attorney was discovered prior to Steven's trial, so the Prosecution omitted everything from Brendan to keep it from becoming an issue in the future appeals. There was a throw-away line in the Netflix documentary about it, but much more info online. They also didn't need it. They had Steven's DNA in two different places, his phone calls to Teresa, the bullets, and her body was found on his property. 

There is no PROOF that the Sheriff's Office planted the key, or planted any evidence. BUT, they were not supposed to be present. They are the reason this is even being discussed. They ignored information provided by other law enforcement agencies on the rape charge, lead the victim to believe the perpetrator was Avery, and failed to even attempt to correct their errors when they continued to learn he probably wasn't responsible for that rape. In the murder case, the Sheriff's Office was not supposed to be on Avery's property, ignored a judge's order to not be there, found evidence in an area that had been searched previously by other agencies, and created a situation where the filmmakers have been able to take the approach that the obvious issues in the past means there must be issues now, even though the evidence doesn't support that conclusion. 

The Netflix documentary makes the entire case look shoddy. It was able to do that because the behavior and actions of the Manitowoc Sheriff's Office. The case was nowhere near as flimsy as portrayed, but to know that, you have to invest a lot of time into researching it. Not too long ago, someone posted how the documentary edited a phone call to make it sound completely different than what was actually said. He had decided to listen to the entire thing, and posted it in the MOM forum here. I burnt out of Avery shortly after watching the show and then falling into the rabbit hole of everything that was left out. I saw another show was doing an interview with the Prosecutor or Sheriff in the next few days, but I'm not going to watch that, either. If someone wants to do an in-depth story about Dassey and others like him, I'm in. Avery can continue to rot for his crimes.

[Christina]

I watched an episode of something on the Hadley case right after Angela was arrested. I kept waiting for Dateline to point out that Ian had a lie detector test administered by the Marshal Service, but they never did. Even though I'm certain that happened, I can't find what I watched before that discussed it. I actually thought Dateline was a rerun, but it showed new. He was assumed involved until he passed the test, which allowed him to continue working. I think, but certainly don't remember for sure, that the posts made by Angela were at times that he was at work. Ian also tried to get a protection order against Hadley for sending him threatening texts shortly after his relationship with Angela began. That was denied, and that was when Angela made herself the victim. She was then suspected of sending the ones to her husband posing as Michelle. During Michelle and Ian's relationship, they both claimed the other had issues with alcohol and anger, but neither one ever had any arrests.

I'm also pretty sure that Ian filed from divorce from Angela, and that she had a prior arrest for conning someone out of money. I tried to google it, but only came up with the Dateline show, articles about the Dateline show, and an article on a click-bait site that claimed to have inside information but probably only had viruses. This was another Dateline episode that was covered elsewhere first. 

[walnutqueen]

3 hours ago, Christina said:

Brendan didn't come into Steven's trial, at all. He didn't testify and the information he provided was not used. The malpractice of his attorney was discovered prior to Steven's trial, so the Prosecution omitted everything from Brendan to keep it from becoming an issue in the future appeals. There was a throw-away line in the Netflix documentary about it, but much more info online. They also didn't need it. They had Steven's DNA in two different places, his phone calls to Teresa, the bullets, and her body was found on his property. 

There is no PROOF that the Sheriff's Office planted the key, or planted any evidence. BUT, they were not supposed to be present. They are the reason this is even being discussed. They ignored information provided by other law enforcement agencies on the rape charge, lead the victim to believe the perpetrator was Avery, and failed to even attempt to correct their errors when they continued to learn he probably wasn't responsible for that rape. In the murder case, the Sheriff's Office was not supposed to be on Avery's property, ignored a judge's order to not be there, found evidence in an area that had been searched previously by other agencies, and created a situation where the filmmakers have been able to take the approach that the obvious issues in the past means there must be issues now, even though the evidence doesn't support that conclusion. 

The Netflix documentary makes the entire case look shoddy. It was able to do that because the behavior and actions of the Manitowoc Sheriff's Office. The case was nowhere near as flimsy as portrayed, but to know that, you have to invest a lot of time into researching it. Not too long ago, someone posted how the documentary edited a phone call to make it sound completely different than what was actually said. He had decided to listen to the entire thing, and posted it in the MOM forum here. I burnt out of Avery shortly after watching the show and then falling into the rabbit hole of everything that was left out. I saw another show was doing an interview with the Prosecutor or Sheriff in the next few days, but I'm not going to watch that, either. If someone wants to do an in-depth story about Dassey and others like him, I'm in. Avery can continue to rot for his crimes.

I agree.  You didn't miss much from the Prosecutor or lead investigator (not Manitowoc Sheriff) on "Crime Watch Daily" yesterday.  The Prosecutor wrote a book about the case; some facts that were omitted or glossed over in MOM were briefly discussed, and the lead investigator is sure Avery is where he belongs, but will defer to the Court's decision on Dassey (even though he thinks Brendan was involved to some degree).

[CaughtOnTape]

There's no PROOF Avery did anything either.  Just a lot of things that make it look like he did.

Which is exactly the PROOF making the cops look guilty for setting him up.

[CaughtOnTape]

Sometimes I watch this show and I'm like "People actually go that far?"  

What kind of life have you had that setting someone up as a stalker seems like a better idea than fighting it out to get the condo legally?  Was the condo that great?  Did it self clean?  There was nothing anywhere else that they could have found that was better?  

I always wonder when that decision happens?  Instead of divorcing my wife, I'll kill her.  Instead of getting the condo legally, I'll make her look like she's nuts.

[CelticBlackCat]

11 hours ago, Christina said:

I watched an episode of something on the Hadley case right after Angela was arrested. I kept waiting for Dateline to point out that Ian had a lie detector test administered by the Marshal Service, but they never did. Even though I'm certain that happened, I can't find what I watched before that discussed it. I actually thought Dateline was a rerun, but it showed new. He was assumed involved until he passed the test, which allowed him to continue working. I think, but certainly don't remember for sure, that the posts made by Angela were at times that he was at work. Ian also tried to get a protection order against Hadley for sending him threatening texts shortly after his relationship with Angela began. That was denied, and that was when Angela made herself the victim. She was then suspected of sending the ones to her husband posing as Michelle. During Michelle and Ian's relationship, they both claimed the other had issues with alcohol and anger, but neither one ever had any arrests.

I'm also pretty sure that Ian filed from divorce from Angela, and that she had a prior arrest for conning someone out of money. I tried to google it, but only came up with the Dateline show, articles about the Dateline show, and an article on a click-bait site that claimed to have inside information but probably only had viruses. This was another Dateline episode that was covered elsewhere first. 

If you go to Heavy.com, and search for each of the players' names, you'll find tons of stuff about this case.

[biakbiak]

Quote

I don't like flies on my meat.

I watch a ton of true crime and that crazy creeped me out!

[walnutqueen]

1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

I watch a ton of true crime and that crazy creeped me out!

No shit.  That statement was creepier than lotion in a basket.

[biakbiak]

2 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

No shit.  That statement was creepier than lotion in a basket.

When they put in the red herring towards the end I was like he still murdered her and I wouldn't be surprised if he murdered others!

[walnutqueen]

13 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

When they put in the red herring towards the end I was like he still murdered her and I wouldn't be surprised if he murdered others!

Herring, schmerring - I know creepy when I encouunter it.

And that's the second time this week I've had the shudders - the first was the See No Evil monster who killed his stepdaughter so he could fuck her corpse.

I need another shower, a stiff drink, and my dead Mum's soft faux chinchilla blankie.

Edited March 4, 2017 by walnutqueen
I can't correct encounter because my delete & backspace keys aren't working right now

[EtheltoTillie]

So weird because the wife served prison time for her role in the Ponzi scheme but still was out before the murder trial was over. 

[Christina]

Without going back to re-read everything, Avery's DNA was found in six separate places on Teresa's property. The series plants the idea that the Sheriff had access to the blood vial from the rape kit and suggests they may have planted it. The testimony at trial was that none of the blood had the preservative in it it would have if the blood from the vial was used. There was also skin cells from the battery cables, handle to pop the hood, the licenses plates that were found crumpled in another vehicle, and I think it was her purse that was found burnt in a location separate from her clothing. 

It would be hard to walk away from the series and not believe the Sheriff's Office would plant evidence; I certainly do and won't be surprised when it comes up again in other cases like it was in Avery's rape case. But in this murder case, it was disproved that the blood came from the vial, and the other DNA wasn't even talked about, because there was no real way to blame that on the cops. 

There is more than enough evidence to convict him, and that evidence did convict him; it was just omitted and downplayed for the series. And that is my major problem; I think this this series does a great disservice to Teresa. Testimony was clipped, phone calls were clipped, and that wouldn't be an issue, except they clipped things out of context making it look like the cops were lying on the stand because they didn't show the part where the judge allowed the witness to fully answer the question clarifying a "Gotcha" for the defense that was no "gotcha"; made it sound like a cop called for Teresa's license plate number days before it was found, when what actually happened was he was trying to confirm the license of two BOLOs, one of which was for her car, and that was learned after someone took the time to listen to the whole tape and compare to what was shown on the Netflix show. There are also the issues of the several calls to Teresa, him using his sister's name to get her to come out and also using *67 to block his caller ID, her complaint to her boss that he made her uncomfortable, statements from his other family members, and on and on. We could go round and round forever.

It is my belief that people think the cops planted the evidence because they would do such a thing, and because the series omitted facts that pointed toward Avery's guilt. Avery's defense attorneys are good attorneys, too. They pushed the conspiracy as far as they could, they just couldn't prove it because the evidence wasn't on their side. They won some pre-trial motions that excluded evidence gathered at neighboring properties, helped bring light to Dassey's attorney's incompetence, made the Prosecution jump through some extra hoops to get some of their evidence in. We're probably at agree to disagree on his guilt, especially because I keep saying that I'm not getting sucked back into Avery and keep doing it. Jon Benet all over.

[Christina]

He had been found mentally incapable of standing trial for quite a while. I watched it, and think it said how long even though I don't remember exactly, but it was a few years before he was found competent to stand trial.

[EtheltoTillie]

Yes, I think it was seven or eight years. 

[Lizzing]

As far as storytelling goes, this episode was kind of pointless.  The cops did their job, caught the right guy fairly quickly, and he got sent to jail for not wildly inappropriate length of time.  I'm glad for that in regards to the victim and her family, since it is a rarity in the Dateline universe, but this story could have been a 15 minute episode.  The lawyer Ponzi scheme was more interesting, because that is one scam I've never heard of and I was a practicing lawyer for 20 years.  I really wanted to know what kind of idiots would invest in an employment law suit with a promised payout within six months of filing suit.  Six months!  Discovery would barely have begun, let alone a payment being on the way.  I think they really missed the mark on this story.

[cooksdelight]

I agree, I wanted to hear much more about the Ponzi scheme. I think American Greed did that story.

[ButterQueen]

21 hours ago, GussieK said:

So weird because the wife served prison time for her role in the Ponzi scheme but still was out before the murder trial was over. 

I thought it was his employee that went to jail.  He wasn't married.

[cooksdelight]

 The blonde lady, wife of the murderer.

[EtheltoTillie]

2 hours ago, ButterQueen said:

I thought it was his employee that went to jail.  He wasn't married.

Yes but she was also The wife of the killer. 

[ButterQueen]

14 hours ago, GussieK said:

Yes but she was also The wife of the killer. 

Ex-wife.  

She went to jail because she forged signatures in the Ponzi scheme.

[One Tough Cookie]

• ATTN; Keith Morrison--we need  {Pam} HUPDATE!

[badpaddler]

One aspect that they did not mention is that in Monatan, if people have been using a trail, and someone comes in and buys the land and starts locking those trails off, they can sue for "Prescriptive Easement" The caveat per Monatana code is that you have to CONTINUE using the trail, without owner permission, and forcefully. EG. cutting locks. 

Per Montana Code Annotated 2015

  23-2-322. Prescriptive easement not acquired by recreational use of surface waters. (1) A prescriptive easement is a right to use the property of another that is acquired by open, exclusive, notorious, hostile, adverse, continuous, and uninterrupted use for a period of 5 years. 

He was well within his rights to cut the locks, and in fact, was instructed to do so by Montana law. THAT is why the DA and sheriff stopped taking calls for trespassing up there. They had a blind witness that explained these laws to the jury, and in fact testified that according to Montana law, Tim Newman was in his right to do what he did. He also took the chains down to the sheriff personally and told them what he did. He was clearly not doing it to be malicious. He was doing it because EVERYONE has a right to use that trail

My question is this. Joe Campbell was making death threats to people. The sheriff was getting calls about them. Why was nothing done? It is CLEARLY against the law.

     45-5-203. Intimidation. (1) A person commits the offense of intimidation when, with the purpose to cause another to perform or to omit the performance of any act, the person communicates to another, under circumstances that reasonably tend to produce a fear that it will be carried out, a threat to perform without lawful authority any of the following acts: 
     (a) inflict physical harm on the person threatened or any other person; 
     (b) subject any person to physical confinement or restraint; or 
     (c) commit any felony. 
     (2) A person commits the offense of intimidation if the person knowingly communicates a threat or false report of a pending fire, explosion, or disaster that would endanger life or property. 
     (3) A person convicted of the offense of intimidation shall be imprisoned in the state prison for any term not to exceed 10 years or be fined an amount not to exceed $50,000, or both.

[badpaddler]

They took the plea deal because everyone else that was up there, didn't want to be there for fear of Campbell being there. Tim Newman was fighting for everyone's rights up there. I am fairly sure that his main concern is making it enjoyable for everyone to be there. Picture this. You are home for Vacation to see family. You ask your 12 family members where they want to eat. How often will they all agree?

Now imagine that one person is a gluten free vegan on the paleo diet.

That person being someone that honestly believes that you have a right to shoot any and all trespassers on sight. (Sadly there are a lot of these in Montana). They have to get 12 people to agree that Campbell deserved to be in jail for the rest of his life.

All the defense needs to do is get a SINGLE person to say that he doesn't, and it is a hung jury/ mistrial. There is always that one guy in these situations that is a complete narcissist, and believe that the world belongs to him, and only him.

[bubbls]

My mom and I watched Dateline NBC: Deadly Trust the other night. It was about the murder of Robert McLaughlin, Newport Beach millionaire, by his wife Nanette Johnston and her boyfriend, ex-linebacker Eric Naposki. We looked at each other at the end wondering how on earth they both got convicted. I even Googled for more details. While I believe she was involved I'm not really convinced he was, and I assume the trials had a lot more evidence for them both to get life. I wish these shows would spend half their recap time on more details!  I'm trying to decide if I'm interested enough to read the book. 

[mamadrama]

On 1/30/2017 at 10:52 PM, biakbiak said:

I actually missed this episode but people react in all sorts of ways, particularly in shock. Immediately compartmentalizing and handling the task at hand isn't unusual. 

I agree that people have different ways of grieving and reacting to news like this. My own young son died in his sleep of a heart attack. It was unexpected-we put a perfectly fine little boy to bed and awoke hours later to find he’d passed away during the night. You truly do have little to no control over your reactions. My adrenaline kicked in and it was weeks before I would cry-and then I couldn’t stop. While I did CPR and waited for the ambulance, my husband freaked. He was so distraught that I went on with the paramedics to the hospital and I was alone when I got the definite answer; it took an hour for my mom to collect my husband, get him dressed, and bring him in. He looked like a wild-eyed crazy man. I focused my attention on taking care of my husband. In some ways, it helped me compartmentalize and ignore my own emotions. In that way, I get Leanna asking where her husband was and then consoling him in the station rather than breaking down herself. While my husband basically sat in a corner and rocked himself back and forth, I was calmly on the phone with the organ donor people, filling out paperwork, talking to the police (there is always an investigation), etc. Two months later I found myself stuck in bed, crying inconsolably and unable to get up while my HUSBAND was the one running around taking care of things. Those early days are strange, though.

You wouldn’t believe the shit that goes through your head. That first night, friends came over to fix dinner. They were making mashed potatoes and one asked me where our potato peeler was. I found myself totally embarrassed that we didn’t have one, that we peel with a knife. I mean, who cares, right? I had just spent the morning doing futile CPR on my son and there I was worrying about kitchen utensils. But really, there is no control. The body and mind go into defense mode and there’s no real way to know what it’s going to do.

With all of that said, I do believe the dude is guilty. Not one piece of evidence is indicative of his guilt on its own; put it all together, however, and it just doesn’t add up. I DO believe that he had him in Chick Fil A to show him off and to have witnesses. I don’t believe he didn’t see or smell him when he returned with the lightbulbs. I don’t believe the baby fell asleep in the less than 2 minutes it took to drive to work. Any one of those things on its own and I would believe it-added together, they don’t make sense. Poor baby.

[walnutqueen]

4 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I agree that people have different ways of grieving and reacting to news like this. My own young son died in his sleep of a heart attack. It was unexpected-we put a perfectly fine little boy to bed and awoke hours later to find he’d passed away during the night. You truly do have little to no control over your reactions. My adrenaline kicked in and it was weeks before I would cry-and then I couldn’t stop. While I did CPR and waited for the ambulance, my husband freaked. He was so distraught that I went on with the paramedics to the hospital and I was alone when I got the definite answer; it took an hour for my mom to collect my husband, get him dressed, and bring him in. He looked like a wild-eyed crazy man. I focused my attention on taking care of my husband. In some ways, it helped me compartmentalize and ignore my own emotions. In that way, I get Leanna asking where her husband was and then consoling him in the station rather than breaking down herself. While my husband basically sat in a corner and rocked himself back and forth, I was calmly on the phone with the organ donor people, filling out paperwork, talking to the police (there is always an investigation), etc. Two months later I found myself stuck in bed, crying inconsolably and unable to get up while my HUSBAND was the one running around taking care of things. Those early days are strange, though.

You wouldn’t believe the shit that goes through your head. That first night, friends came over to fix dinner. They were making mashed potatoes and one asked me where our potato peeler was. I found myself totally embarrassed that we didn’t have one, that we peel with a knife. I mean, who cares, right? I had just spent the morning doing futile CPR on my son and there I was worrying about kitchen utensils. But really, there is no control. The body and mind go into defense mode and there’s no real way to know what it’s going to do.

With all of that said, I do believe the dude is guilty. Not one piece of evidence is indicative of his guilt on its own; put it all together, however, and it just doesn’t add up. I DO believe that he had him in Chick Fil A to show him off and to have witnesses. I don’t believe he didn’t see or smell him when he returned with the lightbulbs. I don’t believe the baby fell asleep in the less than 2 minutes it took to drive to work. Any one of those things on its own and I would believe it-added together, they don’t make sense. Poor baby.

You just made it very real, mamadrama.  I cannot begin to imagine your loss, but am very sorry for it, and ever so grateful you could share this perspective with us.

I don't own a potato peeler either; but then again, I have no well meaning friends or neighbors to kitchen utensil shame me.   ;-)

[mamadrama]

3 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

You just made it very real, mamadrama.  I cannot begin to imagine your loss, but am very sorry for it, and ever so grateful you could share this perspective with us.

I don't own a potato peeler either; but then again, I have no well meaning friends or neighbors to kitchen utensil shame me.   ;-)

At the time, I was horrified by thoughts like that. Like, who the hell worries about a potato peeler in the middle of picking out coffins? After joining some online child loss support groups, however, I learned that we all had things like that running through our heads. It's just that your mind can't really keep up with what's going on or process that much pain so it keeps trying to find "outs" for you. Not really a part of child loss that people like to talk about, and definitely something that looks strange to outsiders. Because of that, I try to give grieving parents a pass on a lot of things. But with this case I just can't. Too much weird shit going on. 

For what it's worth, our vacation house is in the county where the trial was moved to. Local people down there had no love for the dude. They might have found a more impartial jury at the beginning, but once the trial wrapped up, local people were seeing red. 

I just finished watching the episode where mothers had been accused of hurting their children. The first one, the woman who was accused of poisoning her foster child with salt? That should have been a mistrial. Those two jurors they interviewed clearly didn't understand their instructions or what they were meant to be deciding upon. I was not surprised to see that the charges were dismissed. The Munchhausen by Proxy case scared the shit out of me. 

[walnutqueen]

OK - you had me feeling REALLY sorry for you, but then you had to mention your vacation home.  So now, I just feel VERY sorry for you (Envy, thy name is Green). Totally kidding, of course,  I lost the only person in the Universe who knew and loved me, and am still trying to figure out how to live my life without her - after 62 years, it ain't so easy to reinvent yourself.  And I had my own dissonant moments - including the times I bemoaned how big & heavy my Mum's ashes were, and how I'd have to create a new "cremains place" to house her with the departed cats.  I wouldn't give her a grave, lest she roll over in shame at her daughter's kitchen failings.

And I cannot EVEN with that whole Munchhausen By Proxy deal.  There is NO hell bad enough for child and/or animal abusers.  You brought me back to a place I DO feel safe about being emotional, and added more names to my "kill if I'm dying list".

I need puppies and rainbows now ...

[biakbiak]

In the Finding Sarah Goode ep, I wanted to have the police lock up Nick the brother in law because he was a complete menace compromising the police investigation.

[Ina123]

I agree, but I thought the whole family was compromising the investigation.

[biakbiak]

18 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

I agree, but I thought the whole family was compromising the investigation.

I agree but he was the one dude who clearly acknowledged he was chasing down everyone with his roided self and roided friends saying he would have severely beaten three completely innocent dudes over a six day investigation. The bff who was locked up on a harassment warrant should fucking thank his lucky stars he was locked up for two of the six days otherwise they might have beatened him to death.

[JudyObscure]

I'm so glad to see you all share my dislike for the Goode family and their  angry mob mentality.    I admire the woman prosecutor for being able to speak of them with sympathy and respect.  Showboats one and all, including the judge with his silly speech about the uselessness of marking off days on the cell wall.

[BusyOctober]

While it is a tragedy that Sarah was taken away from her daughter and family in such a brutal way, I found myself really disliking the sisters and roid rage BIL (seriously...does he have to get his shirts custom made? Does the tailor just rip pant legs off and sew them on the arm holes? When you can't walk without looking like a lumbering gorilla, maybe your body is trying to tell you you are too top-heavy). They were a bunch of assholes IMO.  The cops need to do their job and they do not need a posse of vigilantes circling the crime scene and creeping around suspects.  And the sisters indignant <<shock>> that the police weren't telling them Every. Single. Thing. going on in the investigation.  Of course they can't share details! And the way they were talking, I was getting the impression that Sarah was missing for weeks/months and the investigation was stalled.  They found the poor girl and her killer in 6 days. I know every one of those days was agony for her loved ones, but it was resolved a lot quicker than many of these stories. 

I also had no love or sympathy for the "childhood friend" who claims the cops choked and spit on him.  He was a bit shady and obviously had some legal troubles aside from this case.  He came across as a smug punk. 

[callmebetty]

Don't forget the neighbor lady who was following the actual killer around trying to see what he was up to.

But let me get this straight since 2 hours was a long time.  Sarah went out, hung out with these guys. Had she just met the killer (can't think of his name) that night? Anyway, she goes home,  the killer calls her and goes to her house she meets with him, rebuffs his advances and then he rapes and kills her? Is that about it?

[Lizzing]

I kind of felt sorry for the young woman who was raped by the perp but didn't go to the cops because she felt threatened.  The cops ended up just using her to paper over a possible fruit of the poisonous tree problem with getting the perp's DNA and prints.  She had to relive all that trauma (I'm sure she had to tell the story of her rape to many an official) just to have the charges ultimately dropped.  Yeah, it's not economical to try the case because he's in prison, but she was basically used as a pawn to cover the cops' sloppy procedure.

Did they ever specify which of the sisters the BIL was married to?  I thought it was weird he & the wife were at no time interviewed together.  And while it was cute that the BIL did the gal's nails when she was a kid, I find it weird for that tradition to have continued after she was of age and had a child. 

I'm hoping that the vic's 2 brothers, who weren't on the show, were not part of the roid rage lynch mob and that's why they decided to not appear.

[Wings]

On 2/20/2017 at 6:08 AM, cooksdelight said:

Did anyone catch last night's episode, about the woman who supposedly committed suicide on New Year's Day? Who shoots themself in the back of the head? No one. I will always believe the husband did it. No idea why the girl who heard the woman screaming changed her story. It was almost as if someone got to her.

I cannot remember her connection with him either.  It is so unlike them not to repeat the details 27 times each half hour!  He was a friend of her date and were texting, using her phone, back and forth on a car ride to where they were going.  So maybe he just knew her through her date (poor guy) and not personally.  

This particular case tugged at my heart, what a nifty family!  <3

[ButterQueen]

8 hours ago, biakbiak said:

I agree but he was the one dude who clearly acknowledged he was chasing down everyone with his roided self and roided friends saying he would have severely beaten three completely innocent dudes over a six day investigation. The bff who was locked up on a harassment warrant should fucking thank his lucky stars he was locked up for two of the six days otherwise they might have beatened him to death.

Oh my goodness, did that family rub me the wrong way.   It was weird that roid bil was never shown with his wife.  We didn't hear from the brothers or the parents.

I'm going to have to research this case as I have a huge question.  If the killer drove to her house in his car, he coaxed her out of the house, and the murder was committed in her car, did he do it in front of her house?  They never said that he got in her car and they drove somewhere else.  If so, how did he get back to his car?  Two hours and the timeline was still a mess.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 8:08 AM, cooksdelight said:

Did anyone catch last night's episode, about the woman who supposedly committed suicide on New Year's Day? Who shoots themself in the back of the head? No one. I will always believe the husband did it. No idea why the girl who heard the woman screaming changed her story. It was almost as if someone got to her.

I didn't see that particular episode, so my comment is more a general statement.  While it sounds almost impossible to commit suicide by shooting yourself in the back of he head, all it takes is turning your chin toward your shoulder, and placing the gun to the back of your skull.  I can mimic that motion, and I have limited ROM in my neck.

It's a gruesome topic, but women tend to commit suicide in ways that do not damage their faces.  Also, I've known too many cases in which men have shot themselves in the mouth or temple and lived, although completely mutilated.  I don't even own a gun, but if I did and chose to commit suicide with it, I would put it at the base of my skull and destroy the area of my brain which controls breathing.  The likelihood of living is extremely slim, and if you miraculously lived, most of your face would be intact.

God that sounds so gruesome, but most people who commit suicide are planners.  I believe another woman is capable of thinking through this process like me - at least if they have a medical background.

[ElleBee]

8 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

  And the sisters indignant <<shock>> that the police weren't telling them Every. Single. Thing. going on in the investigation.  Of course they can't share details! And the way they were talking, I was getting the impression that Sarah was missing for weeks/months and the investigation was stalled.  They found the poor girl and her killer in 6 days. I know every one of those days was agony for her loved ones, but it was resolved a lot quicker than many of these stories. 

And you could tell they were busting with pride (especially 'roid bro) over how they handled it. Clearly this family felt as though piling into cars to verbally berate and threaten people who'd had any contact with their sister qualified them as Best!Family!Ever!  Go figure that the cops aren't going to keep you updated on their suspicions when they know that if they do, your family lynch mob is going to vigilante justice anyone they offhandedly mention.

Good point on how quickly it all went. As you said, I'm sure it felt like a lifetime for the family, but that's actually an amazingly quick turn-around compared with most murders they've shown. I think the family had a glimmer of hope that she might still be alive, which understandably fueled a sense of urgency, but how about asking the investigators what you can do to help instead of constantly forcing them to use manpower to keep you all in line?

Edited March 11, 2017 by ElleBee

[walnutqueen]

4 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I didn't see that particular episode, so my comment is more a general statement.  While it sounds almost impossible to commit suicide by shooting yourself in the back of he head, all it takes is turning your chin toward your shoulder, and placing the gun to the back of your skull.  I can mimic that motion, and I have limited ROM in my neck.

It's a gruesome topic, but women tend to commit suicide in ways that do not damage their faces.  Also, I've known too many cases in which men have shot themselves in the mouth or temple and lived, although completely mutilated.  I don't even own a gun, but if I did and chose to commit suicide with it, I would put it at the base of my skull and destroy the area of my brain which controls breathing.  The likelihood of living is extremely slim, and if you miraculously lived, most of your face would be intact.

God that sounds so gruesome, but most people who commit suicide are planners.  I believe another woman is capable of thinking through this process like me - at least if they have a medical background.

If I'm ever suicidal could I enlist your mad skillz to perform the definitive death shot?  Because, I don't want to miss or be a turnip in some fucking home.

[cooksdelight]

I just watched last night's episode about Sarah Goode. So many people to be pissed off at in this one.

The sisters and BIL - I was waiting for the defense to include them in their frame-up strategy. They don't sound like very nice people. I am betting BIL is divorced from whichever sister he was married to. And the husbands of these women probably don't want to be lumped into the lynch mob personna.

The nosy neighbor - she didn't bother me as much until she talked about following him in her car. It's bad enough she was watching him with binoculars. Alice Kravitz would be proud.

I also wanted more details about how the guy killed her and the timeline. Since he claims he's innocent, I guess we'll never know.