S03.E04: Part Four - No Win Scenario

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Picard, Riker and crew must confront the sins of their past as the Titan drifts helplessly in a mysterious space anomaly.

Dropping Thursday, March 9, 2023.

[PurpleTentacle]

The writers for this season have the characters down (for the most part) and are really good at writing interpersonal drama, it seems. So this episode being mostly that, it was really good.

That being said they still have problems with the state of technology in the 24th century and some other things. So I have some notes:

 

- A broken bone should be regenerated within a few minutes. You don't need a futuristic cast.

 

- 7, if a changeling transforms into goo in front of you, maybe keep shooting instead of staring at it for 10 minutes, while it crawls into the air ducts...

 

- It sure was lucky that this changeling, who was trying to infiltrate a star ship, brought its very distincitve traditional goo-pot, instead of just using a vase or something. That would have been significantly harder to find.

Also lucky that those traditional regeneration-pots seemingly all look like Odo's bucket. You know, the thing he got on Bajor... Must be some kind of race memory or something...

 

- You really need to scrape some goo off a pot to be able to scan for a changeling? The Federation was at war with these people not too long ago. There is no sample in the databese? Either you can scan for them or you can't. There isn't a scenario where you need a sample.

 

- If you have "as you know" in your script, you should give the whole script another pass. The sentence actually would have worked fine and even a lot better without it.

 

- Just because an energy discharge is regular, it's still a massive leap to jump to "contractions!". There are tons of energy discharges in the universe happening at regular intervals, all of them completely inorganic. In fact a sign of life might be if you pick up something irregular, because that is less likely to be a natural phenomenon.

 

- Picard to Jack: "You are what? 23? 24?" *Jack nods*

First of all: "Hahahahahaha!"

Second of all: Didn't we establish previously that Beverly peaced out like 20 or 21 years ago? Where was she hiding him for those extra two to three years?

 

- Man they really ramped up the englishness on Jack to 11. It got distracting at some points. If you haven't even explained why he is so english, maybe don't draw that much attention to it.

 

- Do we really have to have stupid visions in this again? Can you please get your Star Wars out of my Star Trek, bad robot?

[cambridgeguy]

.The unhappiest person on the Titan must be the second officer.  Never involved in important conversations and keeps seeing inactive officers given command.  Or has Starfleet followed the Kelvin protocol of captain, XO, and pulling straws for the chain of command on a starship? 

[storyskip]

Speculation, not a spoiler.

So.  Jack's a changeling then? Probably a sleeper agent type?

Didn't remember his exact age.

Didn't remember having been to the bar before.

Unexplained flashbacks.

[PurpleTentacle]

20 minutes ago, storyskip said:

So.  Jack's a changeling then? Probably a sleeper agent type?

Must be hard to explain why he turns into a puddle for a few hours a day.

20 minutes ago, storyskip said:

Didn't remember his exact age.

Didn't remember having been to the bar before.

What makes you think he didn't remember those things?

Edited March 9, 2023 by PurpleTentacle

[MissLucas]

This could actually be pretty compelling without the desperate need to pander to TNG nostalgia (typing this as someone who loves TNG).

Why is Beverley the one clocking in on the regularity of the pattern? This is supposed to be a science vessel full of folks looking out for exactly things like this. Even in crisis mode somebody else should have picked up on that. And to jump from the regularity of the energy waves to contractions (since when do contractions occur in an exactly timed pattern) was quite the logical stretch - nevermind the space tadpoles at the end. 

And 'flying without sensors' is not part of Starfleet Academy training? Also why pick Jack Crusher for calling out asteroid positions? What qualifications does he have to do that? And how would Picard know? In an episode serenading the importance of trust and teamwork among a crew the -actual- crew gets relegated to set pieces only allowed to deliver exposition and techno babble. 

Well, at least we got a good scene for Todd Stashwick to explain Shaw's attitude towards Seven and Picard. (A look into his file would have been helpful before trying to manipulate him into changing course.)

 

 

[storyskip]

42 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Must be hard to explain why he turns into a puddle for a few hours a day.

What makes you think he didn't remember those things?

He said so, didn't he?  

In the bar, I thought Jean-Luc asked him if he'd ever been to the place before and Jack said no. Then Jean-Luc said "you're what, 23/24" and Jack doesn't confirm.

Granted, maybe Jack didn't share about having been to the bar so we could have the big reveal at the end with Jean-Luc remembering they had met and maybe he didn't feel like speaking to his age. 

Just speculating why the Changeling hierarchy is so interested in capturing Jack "The Asset" at all costs.

[PurpleTentacle]

6 minutes ago, storyskip said:

In the bar, I thought Jean-Luc asked him if he'd ever been to the place before and Jack said no. Then Jean-Luc said "you're what, 23/24" and Jack doesn't confirm.

He noded when asked about his age and lied about the bar, because he didn't want to admit that he had in fact sought out Picard and was disappointed with the answer about family he got.

I can't explain the reason for the visions yet, but I'm sure it's extremely dumb. It's what I've come to expect from new Trek.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

The writers for this season have the characters down (for the most part) and are really good at writing interpersonal drama, it seems. So this episode being mostly that, it was really good.

That being said they still have problems with the state of technology in the 24th century and some other things. So I have some notes:

 

- A broken bone should be regenerated within a few minutes. You don't need a futuristic cast.

 

- 7, if a changeling transforms into goo in front of you, maybe keep shooting instead of staring at it for 10 minutes, while it crawls into the air ducts...

 

- It sure was lucky that this changeling, who was trying to infiltrate a star ship, brought its very distincitve traditional goo-pot, instead of just using a vase or something. That would have been significantly harder to find.

Also lucky that those traditional regeneration-pots seemingly all look like Odo's bucket. You know, the thing he got on Bajor... Must be some kind of race memory or something...

 

- You really need to scrape some goo off a pot to be able to scan for a changeling? The Federation was at war with these people not too long ago. There is no sample in the databese? Either you can scan for them or you can't. There isn't a scenario where you need a sample.

 

- If you have "as you know" in your script, you should give the whole script another pass. The sentence actually would have worked fine and even a lot better without it.

 

- Just because an energy discharge is regular, it's still a massive leap to jump to "contractions!". There are tons of energy discharges in the universe happening at regular intervals, all of them completely inorganic. In fact a sign of life might be if you pick up something irregular, because that is less likely to be a natural phenomenon.

 

- Picard to Jack: "You are what? 23? 24?" *Jack nods*

First of all: "Hahahahahaha!"

Second of all: Didn't we establish previously that Beverly peaced out like 20 or 21 years ago? Where was she hiding him for those extra two to three years?

 

- Man they really ramped up the englishness on Jack to 11. It got distracting at some points. If you haven't even explained why he is so english, maybe don't draw that much attention to it.

 

- Do we really have to have stupid visions in this again? Can you please get your Star Wars out of my Star Trek, bad robot?

To respond to some of the above:

Yes, Seven should have fired a bunch more at the fleeing Changeling. Also, the saboteur Changeling probably should not have bothered with the "Let's pretend to be Crash" bit. Not when it could change itself into a fly or something else hard to be seen, then ambush Seven and Shaw. Or use any of a half-dozen ways to incapacitate Seven and Shaw without being in the same room with them. Or of course use its abilities to have gotten Jack to the Shrike in the first place. 

I'll fanwank that the goo from this particular Changeling was needed to analyze and track down rather than whatever data Titan might have about generic Changeling DNA. 

They described the energy discharges as "bio-electrical" IIRC. I'm not sure what told them there was a biological component as opposed to pure electrical, but that's what they said. So it's less of a leap that regular bio-electrical pulses might have something to do with a birth/contractions. Obviously there are other things it could be -- a heartbeat equivalent, or thinking, but it's not a complete random guess.

The figure that has been thrown around that Beverly peaced out 20 years ago doesn't have to mean "exactly 20 and not a minute more or less." It could just be -- and apparently is -- an approximation, and she really peaced out closer to 25 years ago than to 20.

Beverly said that Jack went to school in London, so that's where he got his English accent and now sayings from.

I don't think Star Wars has any monopoly on visions. Although no examples come immediately to mind, I'd guess that there were times in TOS or other Trek things before Star Wars was created where people experienced visions, and of course there are ones since in Trek, including Sisko with the Prophets, Torres in the afterlife.

1 hour ago, storyskip said:

Speculation, not a spoiler.

So.  Jack's a changeling then? Probably a sleeper agent type?

Didn't remember his exact age.

Didn't remember having been to the bar before.

Unexplained flashbacks.

I don't think that Jack didn't remember his age, and I don't think he forgot having been to the bar. He remembered but was too embarrassed to say something about having gone and interpreted Picard's answer about Starfleet as "I don't need any family."

I would say it would be more likely that there is some connection between Jack and the Borg, that somehow JLP's time as Locutus added some form of biological or technological distinctiveness that he passed along to Jack. 

I did find that one of the voices sounded like Brent Spiner. If so, maybe there is a Lore connection and Jack is part/all synth?

[starri]

I’m saying this with complete sincerity:  That was the best performance I’ve ever seen Jonathan Frakes give.

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Well, at least we got a good scene for Todd Stashwick to explain Shaw's attitude towards Seven and Picard. (A look into his file would have been helpful before trying to manipulate him into changing course.)

It's also amazing how much the scale of Starfleet has changed since then. In the TNG era 40 ships seemed like such a huge number that we'd never get to see it on screen.  Fast forward to the middle of DS9 and you've got thousands of ships fighting with casualty numbers that make Wolf 359 seem like a drop in the bucket. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Well, at least we got a good scene for Todd Stashwick to explain Shaw's attitude towards Seven and Picard. (A look into his file would have been helpful before trying to manipulate him into changing course.)

 

I actually like Shaw now. And the scene at Ten Forward? Chef's Kiss.  The looks his crew gave him after his outburst and him acknowledging his assholishness had me cackling.

That scene in engineering has me screaming. I thought the changeling would have gummed up the works inside the Titan after Seven let it get away. I will give Seven a pass for that since this is her first experience with a changeling. It was also cute that it thought that these 2 people wouldn't know that the real Crash was actually piloting the ship at that time. But it was good that Seven knew something about her that the changeling didn't and was able to zing Shaw at the same time.  It's Commander Seven of Nine to you, sir!

So Jack did seek Picard out and totally misread the situation.  Why at a bar? He could have went to the Chateau and gotten what he wanted! Ugh. But the crimp in that memory was still that Picard didn't even know Jack existed. Beverly didn't send a heads-up; that still makes her the bad person in that situation!

So Vadic is a changeling. So what do they want with Jack? I also think that it may have more to do with Jack having some sort of Borg thing inside him that the changelings might want to exploit.  He is the only biological child of an Ex-B; just spitballing here. 

[dwmarch]

2 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

I actually like Shaw now.

Me too. I loved the exchange about stealing the Founder's pot (Cannabis? I wish!). He is essentially saying that if he had a joint he'd be smoking it at that moment. Well that and/or that the Founders are known for having some dank cheeba. That must be how they got so good at cloning. Before Ketracel White there was Ketracel Green.

[Chicago Redshirt]

The fact that Shaw is a fellow "dipshit from Chicago" does endear him to me somewhat. :)

I was expecting fully that he was going to get killed off so that Picard/Riker could have their moments to shine. 

[Cattoy]

I have to mention I absolutely love seeing the old cast together again, how well they work together, the chemistry, etc. Even some of the newer cast is fitting in well. But would some decent writing be too much to ask?

Beverly - not exactly helping things by counting down to the next energy burst. As others rightly pointed out, you're on a ship full of scientists. Work with them. Again, as pointed out already, a perfectly timed cycle indicated a space anomaly, not an organic being. It was really a stretch to assume it was something giving birth. Space jellyfish were cute to look at, but added nothing to the story.

Jack - you asked a perfect stranger a highly personal question in front of a crowd and put him on the defensive. He didn't know who you were and had no obligation to give you an answer, let alone a heartfelt personal response. You were the asshole there, not him. And a baseball hat? Did Sisko's love of the game bring it back on Bajor or something, because it was an obscure bit of history at this time frame. It's not like Daddy knew who you were, so why try to disguise yourself. You look more like Jack Sr than Daddy ... Also, isn't hair loss determined by your mother's father? That was one factoid I always heard growing up; not sure how true it is. Regardless, you can manipulate your genes to look like another species at this point; growing hair should be simple.

Sure, let's keep a holodeck running on its own power supply. Forget that it's been mentioned a gazillion times that holodecks are a massive draw on power. I'm certain the crew would rather die in a fight over who gets to run their favorite program one last time rather than diverting that power to something, like, I don't know, life support or shields or propulsion or ...

I don't think Vadik was a Changeling. It looked like she was cutting herself to release it. Did they find a way to possess people, for lack of better word? Live inside the host so they can't be detected? Who knows? This batch of Changelings are stupid. Your pot is not an essential piece of equipment. Borrow a Betazoid ambassador's wig, use a flower pot, an old boot - the container is not important, it's the regeneration itself. Same with assuming the form of a crew member. Come in as a mist, as an insect, disguise yourself as part of a panel, something that they wouldn't notice before you kill them somehow. 

I know we're supposed to dislike Shaw, and he is a bit of a prick, but he's not wrong. He had no reason to give up the control of his ship, and he's not wrong about Picard. The Borg did use his knowledge - without his consent, of course - to massacre a lot of his fellow officers. Shaw has a right to harbor bad feelings toward him.

So, is this supposed to be a crossover with Stranger Things? 'Cause it sure seems like Jack is catching glimpses of the Upside Down. If they start referencing D&D, I'm out of here. Or not. It might improve the story line.

[Chicago Redshirt]

13 minutes ago, Cattoy said:

I have to mention I absolutely love seeing the old cast together again, how well they work together, the chemistry, etc. Even some of the newer cast is fitting in well. But would some decent writing be too much to ask?

Beverly - not exactly helping things by counting down to the next energy burst. As others rightly pointed out, you're on a ship full of scientists. Work with them. Again, as pointed out already, a perfectly timed cycle indicated a space anomaly, not an organic being. It was really a stretch to assume it was something giving birth. Space jellyfish were cute to look at, but added nothing to the story.

Jack - you asked a perfect stranger a highly personal question in front of a crowd and put him on the defensive. He didn't know who you were and had no obligation to give you an answer, let alone a heartfelt personal response. You were the asshole there, not him. And a baseball hat? Did Sisko's love of the game bring it back on Bajor or something, because it was an obscure bit of history at this time frame. It's not like Daddy knew who you were, so why try to disguise yourself. You look more like Jack Sr than Daddy ... Also, isn't hair loss determined by your mother's father? That was one factoid I always heard growing up; not sure how true it is. Regardless, you can manipulate your genes to look like another species at this point; growing hair should be simple.

Sure, let's keep a holodeck running on its own power supply. Forget that it's been mentioned a gazillion times that holodecks are a massive draw on power. I'm certain the crew would rather die in a fight over who gets to run their favorite program one last time rather than diverting that power to something, like, I don't know, life support or shields or propulsion or ...

I don't think Vadik was a Changeling. It looked like she was cutting herself to release it. Did they find a way to possess people, for lack of better word? Live inside the host so they can't be detected? Who knows? This batch of Changelings are stupid. Your pot is not an essential piece of equipment. Borrow a Betazoid ambassador's wig, use a flower pot, an old boot - the container is not important, it's the regeneration itself. Same with assuming the form of a crew member. Come in as a mist, as an insect, disguise yourself as part of a panel, something that they wouldn't notice before you kill them somehow. 

I know we're supposed to dislike Shaw, and he is a bit of a prick, but he's not wrong. He had no reason to give up the control of his ship, and he's not wrong about Picard. The Borg did use his knowledge - without his consent, of course - to massacre a lot of his fellow officers. Shaw has a right to harbor bad feelings toward him.

So, is this supposed to be a crossover with Stranger Things? 'Cause it sure seems like Jack is catching glimpses of the Upside Down. If they start referencing D&D, I'm out of here. Or not. It might improve the story line.

The fact that it was deemed "bioelectric energy" suggests it might be birth.

The Titan holodeck apparently has a self-contained power system as stated in this episode. I'll buy the notion after X number of mishaps with the holodeck someone designed one that would be isolated from the rest of the ship, and also that it makes a good emergency shelter location.

I think Vadik was clearly a Changeling. She cut off her hand to put it on the communication device, and then reabsorbed it. I agree that Saboteur Changeling was criminally stupid.

I was better with Shaw disliking Picard more on general principle than having resentments lingering over Picard being taken over by the Borg 30+ years ago. But if he's an anti-Borg bigot, maybe he could do with a better first officer.

[thuganomics85]

As soon as I saw that this episode was TV-MA due to "Coarse Language", I was waiting to see who would drop the f-bomb here.  Wise move giving it to Patrick Stewart because even he can make that sound like Shakespeare!  But imagine how different things would have been if The Next Generation was on a paid subscription channel ("There are four fucking lights!"  "Lets make sure history never fucking forgets the name Enterprise!"  "If we're going to be damned, let's be fucking damned for what we really are!")  I could go on for days!

The way they got out of the nebula was par for the course, but I still enjoyed it enough.  Almost every main member (and the supporting ones) played a part in figuring out the solution (for both the escape and dealing with the saboteur), plenty of suspenseful and intense moments that mainly played well, and some solid character development and interactions as well.  All paced pretty well, so I wasn't surprised to see Jonathan Frakes' name in the director's credit again.  That man knows how to direct his Trek!

Shaw might still be a "dipshit from Chicago", but finding out that he in the middle of Picard/Locutus' massacre and was probably feeling some survivor guilt for being only one of ten that was luckily selected to escape, does explain a lot about his attitude towards both Picard and Seven (and in general.)  Todd Stashwick did an excellent job at the bar scene and I'm glad he came through in the end.  That said, he either needs to learn to accept Seven and who she is or request a transfer of some kind, because he can't allow his anti-Borg feelings to effect him this way.  But I'm glad he's not just an one-note antagonist like I thought he would be.

Finding out that Jack had secretly visited the bar five years ago was surprising, but I think he was being unfair to Picard.  At the time, Picard truly thought he had no children and that those days were over, so he fully embraced having Starfleet as his family and was content and even happy.  But I think had Jack still approached him with the truth, he would have been thrilled (after being confused and needing a lot of questions answered) to know he had a son.  It just felt like they played the scene where I was suppose to feel like he was uncaring or hurtful, but I didn't feel that way about it.

Speaking of which, while I'm glad Picard was nice enough to talk to some of the adoring underlings, as someone who likes his peace and quite while dining, I felt for him wanting to just eat his damn food.  Trying to place the actor who played the main cadet who asked questions, because he looked very familiar.

Jonathan Frakes as always been a perfect fit as Riker, but this really was some of his best pure acting work ever.

Hope this isn't it for Vadic, because Amanda Plummer is such a delightful ball of ham here.  Not sure what to make of whoever she was talking to.  By, naturally, cutting her hand and sticking it into some kind of device.  Classic sci-fi!

Not sure what is happening to Jack but it certainly can't be good!

[dovegrey]

This poor crew, at the mercy of all these random people who boarded their ship, lead them into certain death, and replaced their entire command crew. This show is pandering way too much to TNG and that was the main reason I wanted to watch Picard. It’s like meeting your heroes and being highly disappointed.

Does the holodeck not draw on power? Seriously?

A cast for a broken bone? Seriously?

Why the hell wouldn’t you have Seven working on how to channel the nebula’s energy into propulsion? She. Is. Brilliant. They’ve dumbed her down so, so much.

I like Shaw. I don’t cognitively understand how Borg drones are blamed for what the Borg do, but it emotionally makes sense. I’d like a Shaw/Seven show in the vein of SNW.

I still think this show overuses flashback framing to drive narrative but this season has used them effectively. I liked the ending beat when it was revealed that Jack had sought out Picard.

Didn’t miss Raffi and forgot she existed until the credits rolled.

I speculated about this in last episode’s thread…and now with Locutus being discussed and expositioned this episode, I’m more and more thinking that Jack is wanted because of some very rare biological Borg stuff that xB Picard passed down to him (though, technically, I guess B'Elanna's kid would also be the kid of an xB because of that one asinine Voyager episode...). Genetic nanoprobes? Genetic Borg memory? Curious what “Asset” refers to.

[KeithJ]

The Titan is having massive power issues but Picard just goes and fires up the holodeck to have a drink and a talk with his son?

[Pallas]

5 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

So Jack did seek Picard out and totally misread the situation.  Why at a bar?

It was Frontier Day (remember that name...) I'm guessing Jack discovered that Picard was invited to speak at some ceremony, and liked the idea of being able to observe and perhaps even speak to him while keeping all his options open. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

As soon as I saw that this episode was TV-MA due to "Coarse Language", I was waiting to see who would drop the f-bomb here.  Wise move giving it to Patrick Stewart because even he can make that sound like Shakespeare!  But imagine how different things would have been if The Next Generation was on a paid subscription channel ("There are four fucking lights!"  "Lets make sure history never fucking forgets the name Enterprise!"  "If we're going to be damned, let's be fucking damned for what we really are!")  I could go on for days!

 

I didn't even notice it at first. There was so much discussion about Picard cussing and whether or not he would do that, so I rewatched and I thought that it was placed where it was for emphasis of how horrible those hours back to safety must have been for him and Crusher the First. You would have thought Picard cussed at Jack for all the hand wringing!

30 minutes ago, KeithJ said:

The Titan is having massive power issues but Picard just goes and fires up the holodeck to have a drink and a talk with his son?

 

It makes more sense that the holodecks in the later starships have been engineered to have their own power source since the holodeck has been the main cause of numerous ship altering shenanigans across Trek shows.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

33 minutes ago, dovegrey said:

Does the holodeck not draw on power? Seriously?

...

Why the hell wouldn’t you have Seven working on how to channel the nebula’s energy into propulsion? She. Is. Brilliant. They’ve dumbed her down so, so much.

I like Shaw. I don’t cognitively understand how Borg drones are blamed for what the Borg do, but it emotionally makes sense. I’d like a Shaw/Seven show in the vein of SNW.

...

I speculated about this in last episode’s thread…and now with Locutus being discussed and expositioned this episode, I’m more and more thinking that Jack is wanted because of some very rare biological Borg stuff that xB Picard passed down to him (though, technically, I guess B'Elanna's kid would also be the kid of an xB because of that one asinine Voyager episode...). Genetic nanoprobes? Genetic Borg memory? Curious what “Asset” refers to.

They stated in this episode that the holodeck has its own self-contained power system.

The problem of how to channel the nebula's energy into propulsion was not apparently a difficult one. They managed to solve it without Seven's help. Riker stated he wanted Seven to continue being officially still suspended so she could be free to operate to track down Saboteur Changeling. I agree that Seven has been in general dumbed down, but I don't think it was the case in this episode.

The thing is that Picard was not just any old Borg drone as Shaw pointed out. He got a special place amongst them as Locutus. So I could see people being skeptical about how little choice he had to resist them. I would love Seven to have her own show. Or a Riker/Seven show. But I don't have much of a need to see Shaw after this season's over. I could go with the Next Next Generation with the relatives of the Next Generation main crew if they were crazy enough to do it. (Jack or Wesley Crusher, Kestra Troi-Riker, Soji or some other synth, Alexander, son of Worf, Sidney LaForge, Molly or Kirayoshi O'Brien).

 

[MissLucas]

They added that bit about holodecks having their own power system but it still makes little sense. If the situation is so desperate wouldn't the crew prefer that engineering tried to redirect energy from that system to the main drive? But even if that's not doable how is this supposed to work the way Picard suggested? He clearly called dibs on the holodeck and the rest of the crew just had to be happy to spend the last minutes of their life in Ten Forward because the old admiral who got them into that mess in the first place was there before anyone else? Also: I really missed some urgency in those scenes - folks were just strolling around their ship's corridors making way for Seven on her hunt for a changeling and Doctor Crusher and her tablet of doom.

[marinw]

1 hour ago, dovegrey said:

A cast for a broken bone? Seriously?

 

Maybe they didn't have the power for the bone knitter or whatever. Or that Shaw's injury was very complex and requires surgery once it is safe to do so.

Nitpick: Don't they have EVA suits for when life support goes down?

IIRC in "The Drumhead" Admirial Satie says that 39 ship were lost. Yet Shaw said there were 40 ships at Wolf 359. So one ship must have survived.🤫

Good, exciting episode. Dodgeing astorios never gets old. Where those the same life forms from "Encounter at Farpoint"?

Edited March 10, 2023 by marinw

[Ottis]

This show is afflicted with what I have come to think of as "writers who are too young or too inexperienced to know better." I've seen this a lot in the past couple of years, on multiple shows. Yeah, I'm old (I watched reruns of TOS as a kid), but I also write for a living and have for decades. For people who just want to roll with it, today's writers and their blind spots may not matter. For someone like me, who wants to see tight and logical links between actions and events, it drives me crazy.

The silly "you have killed us all" from Riker to Picard last ep is an example (you can go back and see my post on that in that episode thread).

The dialogue between Seven and Shaw in this ep, after Seven shoots the shapeshifter, is another example. "How did you know?" Shaw asks afterward. Well, let's see ... the bridge would not send its star pilot to help open nacelle doors during an emergency (duh), Seven herself has already said that she told the bridge not to send anyone to help, AND Shaw has said that in that space and moment is exactly when a shapeshifter would best be able to screw them up. Shaw should have known all of those things, making the question unnecessary. Also? None of that mattered anyway, if Seven just stunned the shapeshifter. It wasn't a dramatic choice like killing it or choosing to shoot it vs. someone else. Just stun fake LaForge already.

There was also the very strange dialogue with Worf and Raffi (was that this ep or the prior one?), where one of them asked what the goal of stealing the weapons was, the other asks "to start a war?" and the first one replies, "no, to plan another attack." Planning a second attack doesn't answer the question. WHY are they planning attacks? Is it indeed to start a war? That exchange was just nonsensical.

I will say the relived memory of Jack asking a smug Picard in the bar about family was well done.

Jack clearly is more than human, based on his visions. And someone wants him. BTW, is it just me, or do the whites in his eyes seem to glow? I've thought that since he appeared. Maybe I'm reaching.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Ottis

[paigow]

Sisko had more of a grudge against Locutus / Picard because it cost him real, not metaphorical family...

[Ottis]

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

Shaw might still be a "dipshit from Chicago", but finding out that he in the middle of Picard/Locutus' massacre and was probably feeling some survivor guilt for being only one of ten that was luckily selected to escape, does explain a lot about his attitude towards both Picard and Seven (and in general.)

I like Shaw. He is well aware he can be an ass, but he has reasons and even when he is being an ass, he is competent.

[dovegrey]

37 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

They stated in this episode that the holodeck has its own self-contained power system.

The problem of how to channel the nebula's energy into propulsion was not apparently a difficult one. They managed to solve it without Seven's help. Riker stated he wanted Seven to continue being officially still suspended so she could be free to operate to track down Saboteur Changeling. I agree that Seven has been in general dumbed down, but I don't think it was the case in this episode.

The thing is that Picard was not just any old Borg drone as Shaw pointed out. He got a special place amongst them as Locutus. So I could see people being skeptical about how little choice he had to resist them. I would love Seven to have her own show. Or a Riker/Seven show. But I don't have much of a need to see Shaw after this season's over. I could go with the Next Next Generation with the relatives of the Next Generation main crew if they were crazy enough to do it. (Jack or Wesley Crusher, Kestra Troi-Riker, Soji or some other synth, Alexander, son of Worf, Sidney LaForge, Molly or Kirayoshi O'Brien).

I missed that line about the holodeck; thanks. That being said - I'd probably reroute that huge self-contained power system into the ship's main power to aid survival. Because the holodeck is a massive power draw, which means its self-contained system is a possible massive power source.

Seven has the complete knowledge of the Borg Collective up until 30 some years ago, such as some obscure schematic for some random Delta Quadrant civilization's power needs that she was able to replicate single-handedly back in the Voyager days. She's also First Officer of the ship that Picard and Riker commandeered. But Team TNG doesn't have her in the Ready Room, when Riker's losing his shit and saying they're all dead because Beverly's plan will never work. Instead, they have a con artist who flies a shuttle of stolen medical supplies look old and broody, while his mom gives an inspirational speech that Saves the Day. I still don't buy it. 🤷‍♂️ It's enough to make me wonder about how Borgati assimilated her last season and if Seven is still physiologically/neurologically anything like Voyager!Seven (give her a show!!!).

Honestly, I'm the opposite re: the kids. I really, really don't like shows about the characters' kids. All in all, watching this episode of Picard in between catching up on SNW (...we were CBS All Access/Paramount+ holdouts...) has convinced me that I'm fairly over watching once-beloved characters do dumb things and act bizarrely because *TNG Theme* engage.

Edited March 10, 2023 by dovegrey

[Stardancer Supreme]

23 minutes ago, Ottis said:

The dialogue between Seven and Shaw in this ep, after Seven shoots the shapeshifter, is another example. "How did you know?" Shaw asks afterward. Well, let's see ... the bridge would not send its star pilot to help open nacelle doors during an emergency (duh), Seven herself has already said that she told the bridge not to send anyone to help, AND Shaw has said that in that space and moment is exactly when a shapeshifter would best be able to screw them up. Shaw should have known all of those things, making the question unnecessary. Also? None of that mattered anyway, if Seven just stunned the shapeshifter. It wasn't a dramatic choice like killing it or choosing to shoot it vs. someone else. Just stun fake LaForge already.

 

I'm willing to let that slide. Even if Shaw knew for certain that this was not Sidney, there wasn't much he could do about it being flat on his back on the floor with no weapon handy.  I guess the changeling assumed since this is a LaForge, she would have to be in engineering... despite wearing command colors. Heh.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

26 minutes ago, Ottis said:

The dialogue between Seven and Shaw in this ep, after Seven shoots the shapeshifter, is another example. "How did you know?" Shaw asks afterward. Well, let's see ... the bridge would not send its star pilot to help open nacelle doors during an emergency (duh), Seven herself has already said that she told the bridge not to send anyone to help, AND Shaw has said that in that space and moment is exactly when a shapeshifter would best be able to screw them up. Shaw should have known all of those things, making the question unnecessary. Also? None of that mattered anyway, if Seven just stunned the shapeshifter. It wasn't a dramatic choice like killing it or choosing to shoot it vs. someone else. Just stun fake LaForge already.

There was also the very strange dialogue with Worf and Raffi (was that this ep or the prior one?), where one of them asked what the goal of stealing the weapons was, the other asks "to start a war?" and the first one replies, "no, to plan another attack." Planning a second attack doesn't answer the question. WHY are they planning attacks? Is it indeed to start a war? That exchange was just nonsensical.

It is completely possible that the bridge disregarded Seven's telling them not to send anyone and sent someone anyway. It is a life-or-death situation, and Seven's requests aren't binding on the bridge. It is also completely possible that of the X number of people to send they would have sent Crash as the daughter of an engineering legend who is connected to Picard/Riker (rather than any of the Titan's actual engineering crew). The episode explained that the nacelles are 20 years old so the regular newbies don't know nothing about dealing with them. That's why Shaw had to be involved. and it's at least plausible the real Crash would also have some useful knowledge from her dad. As it turned out, the real Crash wasn't doing much of the piloting anyway and somehow Jack Crusher, who as far as we know has never served in Starfleet, has no particular experience with a ship this size and no particular affinity for piloting, is taking a big role in helping the Titan escape. The whole scene was contrived so Seven could be all like "Don't deadname me, bro." 

Worf and Raffi didn't appear in this episode. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

and it's at least plausible the real Crash would also have some useful knowledge from her dad. As it turned out, the real Crash wasn't doing much of the piloting anyway and somehow Jack Crusher, who as far as we know has never served in Starfleet, has no particular experience with a ship this size and no particular affinity for piloting, is taking a big role in helping the Titan escape. The whole scene was contrived so Seven could be all like "Don't deadname me, bro." 

 

Not if Sidney isn't part of engineering. I wonder who is the Titan's chief engineer?

Jack was calling out coordinates to Picard so Picard could tell Sidney where to go. Any child of Starfleet should be able to do that. It's not like Jack knocked Sidney out of her seat and piloted the Titan himself.

[greekmom]

10 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I can't explain the reason for the visions yet, but I'm sure it's extremely dumb. It's what I've come to expect from new Trek.

*round of applause*

The hate continues.  I agree with Purple that the visions are probably connected to something stupid.

Hey space jellyfish! You were not missed. Sorrynotsorry.

So Picard fought the Hirogens at some point and the WHOLE TEAM (minus Bev of course) were there because Worf was on board and helped him create a plan to escape the alpha.  Sure Jan.

Vadic is a changeling. Why would her face be so scarred? What a letdown.

I knew it. Captain Dipshit hated Picard due to Wolf 359. It would be nice if someone from the battle of Wolf 359 would understand what Picard went through as he was captured, tortured and made a Borg. Not like he did it willingly.  You figure the knowledge that Starfleet has of the Borg and the fact they teach about the Borg at the academy people would figure out Picard wasn't in control of his action at that time. And they think they are intelligent beings.  With or without Loctus, the fleet would have met the Borg there anyways.  Plus if they didn't have access to Loctus when he was recaptured, they wouldn't have been able to put the Borg "to sleep".

 

[dovegrey]

49 minutes ago, Ottis said:

This show is afflicted with what I have come to think of as "writers who are too young or too inexperienced to know better." I've seen this a lot in the past couple of years, on multiple shows. Yeah, I'm old (I watched reruns of TOS as a kid), but I also write for a living and have for decades. For people who just want to roll with it, today's writers and their blind spots may not matter. For someone like me, who wants to see tight and logical links between actions and events, it drives me crazy.

Agreed. I think of it as convenience writing. I like the fabric of this season, but the writing is loose, sloppy, and makes poor use of the fabric. There are good moments, and there's good nostalgia, but it's at the expense of good writing. This season could be incredible if the writing was tightened up or dialogue altered even just a little bit, which is what is incredibly fun (to me) about writing fiction - you have 100% control to fix the issues and solve the story puzzle, if the effort, thought, and (at times) sacrifice is put into it. Anyway.

2 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Jack was calling out coordinates to Picard so Picard could tell Sidney where to go. Any child of Starfleet should be able to do that. It's not like Jack knocked Sidney out of her seat and piloted the Titan himself.

But Jack had no business even being on the bridge. He's not Starfleet. Starfleet isn't inherited. Riker and Picard don't know Jack at all. If this all happened on La Sirena, fine. But it's a starship with hundreds of lives at risk in a survival situation, and it's not okay to have some random guy they all just met call coordinates on the bridge because his parents are/were Starfleet. Why did Picard need Jack on the bridge?

That whole sequence, starting with Riker ceding command to Picard (just pick a captain!), honestly made me think that, at this point in the story, I'd choose Cadet Kelvin!Kirk as captain over this version of Picard and even Riker. Imagine being a crew member on the Titan after those two showed up.

 

[dwmarch]

1 hour ago, dovegrey said:

I missed that line about the holodeck; thanks. That being said - I'd probably reroute that huge self-contained power system into the ship's main power to aid survival. Because the holodeck is a massive power draw, which means its self-contained system is a possible massive power source.

FWIW, Voyager tried hooking the holodeck up to the main power grid and came to the conclusion that it could not be done for technobabble reasons. This was so they could have the crew complaining about the lack of resources but still partying on the holodeck anytime they felt like it. I think the vehicle replicator shown on Prodigy comes from something similar - Voyager had a finite amount of shuttles and lost more than they brought along so they must have figured out a way to manufacture them... right?

It is also possible that the newer holodecks incorporate some aspect of the Voyager Doctor's mobile emitter technology that can't scale up to cover an entire ship yet.

[readster]

Great episode, but Vadic is not a Changling. Regular changling would not have to "cut off" their hands like that. Plus, her upset about the Titan escaping and destroying their portal gun and pretty much leaving them dead in the water. Changlings can get emotional, but not like that. She comes off more a hybrid or cyborg type, explains why the hand she cut looks like it's in a brace and the scar on her face is real. Plus she also didn't want to go after the Titan after she told the changling comm it was pretty much set to die. The changling told her to go after it no matter what or suffer. Like I and others have said, someone else is pulling the strings and why such interest in Jack Crusher? Plus, the way Worf and Raffi are seeing, there is something more to this, sure Changling Faction wants the Federation gone, but someone has a more personal stake in this. 

[rtms77]

3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

They added that bit about holodecks having their own power system but it still makes little sense. If the situation is so desperate wouldn't the crew prefer that engineering tried to redirect energy from that system to the main drive? But even if that's not doable how is this supposed to work the way Picard suggested? He clearly called dibs on the holodeck and the rest of the crew just had to be happy to spend the last minutes of their life in Ten Forward because the old admiral who got them into that mess in the first place was there before anyone else? Also: I really missed some urgency in those scenes - folks were just strolling around their ship's corridors making way for Seven on her hunt for a changeling and Doctor Crusher and her tablet of doom.

I too kept waiting for someone to mention siphoning the Holodeck power but , meh. And I have to think there is more than one hole deck on board, or else Starfleet personnel lead seriously boring lives or like to wait in line ups. I speculate all crew decks/ living sections have a small holodeck, with one big main one in the general off duty deck for everyone. 
 

They have really amped up the changling goo. Now it actually looks like blood and guts getting rearranged. But what is the motive.

If Jack is or was hijacked while at school, Beverly is one cold mother who can’t tell. There was that scene in the first ep where she locked him away which is weird if he’s been galavanting around the galaxy smuggling and helping people. Something doesn’t add up about those 2. If he’s been replaced by a changling it’s a new hybrid where they can possess a person? Same with Vadic, I’m not sure if she’s a full changling or hybrid. She was seriously frightened by that thing. 

Edited March 10, 2023 by rtms77

[Prevailing Wind]

50 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

They have really amped up the changling goo. Now it actually looks like blood and guts getting rearranged. But what is the motive.

Odo and other changelings on DS9 looked like liquid gold in their natural state. Why the hell does this one look like raw bacon?

[Chyromaniac]

11 hours ago, starri said:

I’m saying this with complete sincerity:  That was the best performance I’ve ever seen Jonathan Frakes give.

To be fair, he had a pretty decent director.

26 minutes ago, Prevailing Wind said:

Odo and other changelings on DS9 looked like liquid gold in their natural state. Why the hell does this one look like raw bacon?

The visual presentation of aliens change, particularly as special effects technology advances.  See also: Klingons, Borg, Gorn, Klingons, Andorians, Ferengi, Tellarites, and Klingons.  Personally I think the new Changeling look is a big upgrade over the generic TV morphing techniques of the mid-90’s.

Holodeck power has indeed been independent from regular power since at least Voyager.  I personally think it was a Geordi LaForge note, after he and a certain hologram helped get the D out of a similar predicament to the one the Titan faced here.  Some kind of trap, iirc…

Overall, I’m enjoying this season, and I think this was the strongest episode yet.  I liked that basically everything was focused on the Titan, and the impact of the danger they were all facing.  Lots of great performances, particularly from Stashwick, Stewart, and as mentioned above, Frakes.  I enjoyed the escape from the nebula, and appreciated the payback of the tractor beam attack.  And I thought the jellies at the end were cool looking.  Tbh, the only real issue I had was that what I felt was the metaphor of “find the pot,” turned out to be a literal pot.

[Prevailing Wind]

1 hour ago, Chyromaniac said:

The visual presentation of aliens change, particularly as special effects technology advances.

But raw bacon? Pretty hard to merge together in a Great Link when you're a semi-solid meat-like being.

[PurpleTentacle]

12 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

So Vadic is a changeling. So what do they want with Jack? I also think that it may have more to do with Jack having some sort of Borg thing inside him that the changelings might want to exploit.  He is the only biological child of an Ex-B; just spitballing here. 

I think her hand is part of a changeling and unconciously mimicking a normal hand most of the time. We've seen changeling matter before that morphed in predetermined ways without any conciousness behind it. Like that locket with a key inside.

But that part of the changeling is still somewhat connected to the main body, so when she cuts off the hand, the main changeling can talk to her through it.

7 hours ago, KeithJ said:

The Titan is having massive power issues but Picard just goes and fires up the holodeck to have a drink and a talk with his son?

I know I'm usually the first to nitpick and yeah, they should have probably tried to get that energy rerouted, but I'll allow it. Claiming that the Holodecks power source is incompatible with the rest of the ship has a proud tradition since Voyager constantly ran out of energy but still wanted to have its Holodeck episodes...

6 hours ago, marinw said:

IIRC in "The Drumhead" Admirial Satie says that 39 ship were lost. Yet Shaw said there were 40 ships at Wolf 359. So one ship must have survived.🤫

The Enterprise survived.

5 hours ago, dovegrey said:

Agreed. I think of it as convenience writing. I like the fabric of this season, but the writing is loose, sloppy, and makes poor use of the fabric. There are good moments, and there's good nostalgia, but it's at the expense of good writing. This season could be incredible if the writing was tightened up or dialogue altered even just a little bit, which is what is incredibly fun (to me) about writing fiction - you have 100% control to fix the issues and solve the story puzzle, if the effort, thought, and (at times) sacrifice is put into it. Anyway.

Yeah, the scripts all seem like they needed another pass. I think they might just not have had the time. Season 2 and 3 were filmed back to back and as far as I can tell, Alex Kurztman just said directly after the writing for season 2 was done "I'm done with this shit, here you do it." and threw it to Terry Matalas, who then had to scramble and throw something together in record time. Considering that, this came out remarkably well.

3 hours ago, rtms77 said:

They have really amped up the changling goo. Now it actually looks like blood and guts getting rearranged. But what is the motive.

Ramped up or nerfed? Used to be changelings were increadibly quick in their goo form and you couldn't catch them before they escaped through the air ducts. Now it required 7 to have an aneurysm at that exact second for the changeling to get away.

I also don't like it from a lore-perspective. Why would changelings look so much like guts? Do these writers even know, that they can look like anything they want, like a glass or a computer? Oh god, they don't know, do they? That's why we haven't seen a changeling as anything but a humanoid.........

2 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

The visual presentation of aliens change, particularly as special effects technology advances.  See also: Klingons, Borg, Gorn, Klingons, Andorians, Ferengi, Tellarites, and Klingons.  Personally I think the new Changeling look is a big upgrade over the generic TV morphing techniques of the mid-90’s.

Disagree. Sure, the visuals needed updating, but why update them like this? Why make something so alien less alien? That's so boring.

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

The Enterprise survived.

Yes, by being absent from the battle.  By that logic every ship that wasn't at Wolf 359 survived.

6 hours ago, rtms77 said:

I too kept waiting for someone to mention siphoning the Holodeck power but , meh. And I have to think there is more than one hole deck on board, or else Starfleet personnel lead seriously boring lives or like to wait in line ups. I speculate all crew decks/ living sections have a small holodeck, with one big main one in the general off duty deck for everyone. 

Which makes you wonder, what does the captain do most of the time when there isn't a disaster or battle?  The department heads should be able to run things efficiently, and a lot of time is spent traveling from one assignment to another.  Did Jean-Luc just read Shakespeare and drink tea in his ready room for hours?

[greekmom]

6 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

Odo and other changelings on DS9 looked like liquid gold in their natural state. Why the hell does this one look like raw bacon?

Maybe raw bacon fat changelings are linked to Lore?  You know like he tinkered with the Borg he could have now been tinkering with the offshoot changelings?  Could be why Vadic had to "cut her hand off" to communicate with the evil bacon fat face?  Random early morning thought while reading everyone's replies.

[Zaffy]

I absolutely loved it, probably the best ST episode I have seen in the new Trek era and one of the best of TNG.
yes yes yes our heroes have basically hijacked Titan, yadda yadda yadda, I do not care, I am not going to nitpick it, I enjoyed it so much, I even found the son tolerable!
Shaw's character is great, I hope he will make the series alive.

My only worry was the female voice "calling" Jack, "find me"... It did cross my mind that it was... I am not gonna say her name she might haunt my dreams, but you know who..she keeps saving the universe in the worse ST series ever.
 

[marinw]

5 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

The Enterprise survived.

The Enterprise missed the battle and arrived after all the ships had been destroyed. If a ship did survive Wolkf 359, I would like to know thier story.

Edited March 10, 2023 by marinw

[Ottis]

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It is completely possible that the bridge disregarded Seven's telling them not to send anyone and sent someone anyway. It is a life-or-death situation, and Seven's requests aren't binding on the bridge. It is also completely possible that of the X number of people to send they would have sent Crash as the daughter of an engineering legend who is connected to Picard/Riker (rather than any of the Titan's actual engineering crew).

LOL. And it is completely possible that Kirk shows up from the Nexus... but that would be bad writing. Because in order to draw the viewer into a sci-fi world, there needs to be some sort of internal logic that viewers can count on. That logic includes behaviors defined by the show and its characters, i.e. "what would make Starfleet sense during an emergency?" If things that are "possible" but are not consistent with the world's internal logic keep happening, then the show no longer makes sense and, like with Marvel's multiverse, anything can happen and nothing matters.

So while the fact pilot LaForge has a dad who once worked on old starships could indeed mean she has some knowledge of the manual nacelle controls (and that's a big assumption ... given all the parts of a starship, what are the odds that particular procedure ever came up over the dinner table?), it does not trump the logic that says if you have a star pilot and your ship is navigating in space during an emergency that you are a fool to send that pilot to be a *back up* to do an old, obscure engineering procedure.

Same is true for Seven saying she said to send no one to help them, given there is a shapeshifter who is likely to show up there so anyone who does show up is automatically suspect. The bridge is not likely to ignore that security procedure - *especially* to send someone who isn't even needed (how many times did Shaw and Seven say to the bridge, "we got this"?). 

The show is giving us clues, which make sense. Then it turns around and acts like no one saw the clues to give us an emotional moment or a quippy comment. That's the type of writing I'm calling out.

11 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Worf and Raffi didn't appear in this episode. 

That's why I liked it more than the other eps! I didn't think so, but I am binging to catch up.

10 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Jack was calling out coordinates to Picard so Picard could tell Sidney where to go. Any child of Starfleet should be able to do that.

That's what *later* happened. At the time the bridge would have sent Sidney to help Shaw/Seven, no one knew that was what would later happen. Irrelevant.

10 hours ago, dovegrey said:

I like the fabric of this season, but the writing is loose, sloppy, and makes poor use of the fabric. There are good moments, and there's good nostalgia, but it's at the expense of good writing. This season could be incredible if the writing was tightened up or dialogue altered even just a little bit, which is what is incredibly fun (to me) about writing fiction - you have 100% control to fix the issues and solve the story puzzle, if the effort, thought, and (at times) sacrifice is put into it.

I think we watch shows the same way! The sloppiness drives me nuts. I really like ST:SNW, and even it has some of this sloppiness. I have seen it over the last 10 or so years in my real life career, and these days it mostly comes from younger/less experienced writers who either don't realize it or assume they can fix it later like websites. That's why I eventually chalked it up on new TV shows to younger/less experienced/less disciplined writers. Picard, all 3 seasons, has A LOT of it.

BTW, don't get me wrong: SO far, this season of Picard is far better than the mess that was season two. And I will watch, because I grew up on ST and it takes a lot to make me stop (the only ST show I stopped watching? Enterprise).

[paigow]

The Hirogen are native to the Delta Quadrant...  Picard & Worf went there on vacation? Hirogens invaded Alpha Quadrant? Idiot writers...

[marinw]

I know it was yet another trip back to the Wolf 359 Well, but I was so impressed with Todd Stashwick's monologue. In my head canon there is some sort of memorial in the Straship Graveyard. I keep thinking of Remembrance Day introduced in Strange New Worlds, and how that tradition may have  evolved into the 25th Century.

On 3/10/2023 at 7:17 AM, paigow said:

The Hirogen are native to the Delta Quadrant...  Picard & Worf went there on vacation? Hirogens invaded Alpha Quadrant? Idiot writers...

I was wondering about that too.

Edited March 10, 2023 by marinw

[paigow]

26 minutes ago, marinw said:

In my head canon there is some sort of memorial in the Straship Graveyard...

Run by Zakdorns... hopefully they will not lose any of those burned out shells...

[marinw]

The whole baldness thing: It may be hereditary (unlike British accents) yet there must be an easy cure by the TNG era. I've always assumed Jean-Luc's staying blad was a cosmetic choice. It makes sence, I've seen Patrick Stewart wearing wigs for various roles and he looks so much better bald.

Edited March 10, 2023 by marinw

[cardigirl]

I have a question, but don't want to spoil any one so I put it in spoiler-mode.

Spoiler

I believe I have heard Admiral Janeway's name a couple of times this season. Do you think we'll see her this season?

@Zaffy Are we thinking alike?

Edited March 10, 2023 by cardigirl