S03.E02: Part Two - Disengage

[marinw]

4 minutes ago, Lebanna said:

We probably saw him rebel pretty much as often as Kirk or Spock ever did. He decided his actions on their merits, not because he was ‘just following orders’. If the order was dumb or fearful, he would ignore it. Let alone his whole thing with the Borg.

He wasn’t naturally a rule taker, just because he was also sensible guy who liked archaeology, playing the flute and reading books. 

This. Picard was/is a quiet type of rebel, he didn't screem "I'm a maverick!" and make a point of it. Although he could get self-rightous about it whenever he violated the Prime Directive for various reasons. 

[paigow]

42 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

There's my "raised by Moriarity inside a Holodeck" theory.

Then Jack would be a smarter criminal....

[marinw]

7 hours ago, chaifan said:

Onto other things... it bothers me a little that Worf killed everyone in the room.  That seemed a little extreme for the situation.  They were gangsters and generally bad people, but summary execution doesn't seem right.  Not when there are other options, like stun settings on phasers. 

 

That bugged me too. Also, Sneed could have had some very usefull intel.

[Joimiaroxeu]

"Probably of destruction: 100%". Hate when that happens, lol.

Ditto comments upthread, Raffi's storyline is not interesting me much. It's like she's on a separate show. Maybe Worf's arrival will help.

The bounty hunter Vadic throws a literal ship at them and then everyone looks at Jack like "Dafuq?" Hilarious.

Picard is back and in charge, baby!

Playing cat and mouse with a shrike inside a nebula. Here comes the fun.

My favorite comment from reddit:

Quote

Starfleet needs to buy 23 and me kits for everyone.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, chaifan said:

Someone posted this above, and I think it's worth repeating... there is a chance Beverly had Jack while she was on her hiatus during TNG, at Starfleet Medical.  That would put Jack at the right age. 

The only way that would work would be if Beverly originally believed baby Jack was dead. The more I think about it that would actually be a really good story. Her leaving and returning was never explained well. They could retroactively explain it as something the characters, or at least Picard and Riker, knew about but didn’t discuss. So when Riker says “do the math” he is referring to that baby and not how long it has been since Beverly dropped off the radar. And the look between Beverly and Jean-Luc was “it’s him” and not “he’s yours”. 

[marinw]

Picard and Crusher shared thoughts in “Attached”. If Chrusher was hiding her secret son Picard would have found out then.

Edited February 26, 2023 by marinw

[paigow]

2 hours ago, marinw said:

That bugged me too. Also, Sneed could have had some very usefull intel.

Worf + Ferengi = Kill...

Quark was lucky that Odo & Miles were around... Also he scored Klingon cred points when he married that warrior... not sure of details but she happily gave him a non-fatal divorce...

[Egg McMuffin]

Jack is really Kate Pulaski’s son.

[paigow]

14 hours ago, Egg McMuffin said:

Jack is really Kate Pulaski’s son.

That means OLD Riker is the Baby Daddy???!!!

Edited February 26, 2023 by paigow

[Stardancer Supreme]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Worf + Ferengi = Kill...

Quark was lucky that Odo & Miles were around... Also he scored Klingon cred points when he married that warrior... not sure of details but she happily gave him a non-fatal divorce...

 

And remember, Sneed was going to kill Raffi like he killed that other alien taking the fall for the stolen tech.  There was no need to leave live enemies behind them when they didn't know what was in front of them yet.

[Chicago Redshirt]

11 hours ago, chaifan said:

Someone posted this above, and I think it's worth repeating... there is a chance Beverly had Jack while she was on her hiatus during TNG, at Starfleet Medical.  That would put Jack at the right age. 

If so, here are the options:  a) Beverly & JL hooked up prior to her leaving, and she either left because she was pregnant with the Captain's child, or didn't know it until after she left; b) Beverly got pregnant from someone else while at Starfleet Medical; c) Beverly got herself pregnant (through whatever medical/IVF procedure) while at Starfleet Medical.  If it's (a), then they can justify not bringing the kid back to Enterprise because JL has previously commented about his problems separating personal life from Captain duties - what if he has to choose between child's life and the rest of the crew, etc.?  In this case, or in (b) or (c), they still have to justify Beverly wanting to return to Enterprise so badly she'd abandon her child for 10 years because of it.  And, in all cases, they'd have to justify never telling Wesley, or explain how Wesley kept that secret all this time. 

Onto other things... it bothers me a little that Worf killed everyone in the room.  That seemed a little extreme for the situation.  They were gangsters and generally bad people, but summary execution doesn't seem right.  Not when there are other options, like stun settings on phasers. 

 

I would say JL and Bev hooking up prior to the end of TNG would be a retcon. In Attached, which is a S7 episode, it's pretty clear that they have never explored their feelings for each other. I don't know how you square that with them having had sex that resulted in baby Jack. I also think it is harder to square Beverly not telling JL about baby Jack for the six years of TNG, the years of the movies, in addition to the years before she went "dark." 

[marinw]

If British accents are inherited, it adds to the fan theory that Petra the Archaeologist on Lower Decks is the love child of Picard and Vash.

Edited February 26, 2023 by marinw

[Affogato]

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I would say JL and Bev hooking up prior to the end of TNG would be a retcon. In Attached, which is a S7 episode, it's pretty clear that they have never explored their feelings for each other. I don't know how you square that with them having had sex that resulted in baby Jack. I also think it is harder to square Beverly not telling JL about baby Jack for the six years of TNG, the years of the movies, in addition to the years before she went "dark." 

Well, I will throw my 'prediction' into the ring. Let's suppose that Beverley had sex with Picard, maybe not really feelings, maybe just old friends and  a little drunk. Perhaps just before she leaves. She leaves the enterprise, she's pregnant but doesn't know it, and loses the child. She is given some convincing explanation, such as a lethal genetic mutation, and thinks no more of it, but in fact the child is stolen and augmented, to use in some scheme or another.  I'm voting for the same cartel that Raffi and Worf are looking into, which will bring the two stories together.  Beverley doesn't tell Picard because there is no need to hurt him, since it came to nothing. She returns to the enterprise. Later, when she leaves, she captains a ship carrying medications and doctors to people that need it. She runs afoul of the cartel, who are stealing (say) drugs from the poor,and at the time, she runs into Jack. Jack helps her and a dna scan of some sort is done. But, he is augmented. If she tells picard he will have to leave starfleet, and it has been so long (etc.) Or maybe Wesley learns about it and sees they get together. I imagine Travelers must keep a lot of secrets.

 

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

 Or maybe Wesley learns about it and sees they get together. I imagine Travelers must keep a lot of secrets.

Wesley McFly is a very busy boy at  Enchantment Under The Sea

[chaifan]

If anyone wants to stop speculating and know for sure if Jack is Picard's son, watch the second episode of The Ready Room.  Apparently the producers didn't think we'd be debating this, because they discuss it openly.  

[tennisgurl]

Looks like we are actually going there, as much as I was hoping we wouldn't. Picard having a long lost son appear out of nowhere is just the most cliché thing that could possibly happen, it was so cliché that I almost thought that there was no way they would actually go there, but here we are. I guess they could pull another twist on us, that Picard was lying or that he's just wrong, but for now it looks like this really is The Next Generation. 

I always hate these sorts of plots, not only because its a contrived plot twist and often ends up being a way to introduce some new "cool" young character, but because it almost always makes the mom look really bad. Why would Beverly not tell Picard that she was pregnant with his child? That makes absolutely no sense and it makes her look terrible, both in not telling Picard get to know his son and not letting her son know his father, it just seems so out of character for her. What reason could she have to not tell Picard? He can be very warm, if a bit awkward, with kids, we saw that in his interactions with Elnor and his nephew, having a kid would hardly end his career, it sounds like he and Beverly were on good terms when she cut him off, what's the deal? I am also not a big fan of Jack himself yet, he's sort of a generic lovable rogue type so far, but we'll see. 

Don't get me wrong, I did actually like this episode, I love seeing Picard and Riker back in command mode where they both shine, and I have liked this season so far, but I am not so sure about this plot twist. 

I hope that this story with Raffi ties into everything else soon, now with the introduction of Worf! Speaking of, Worf is here! And he gets to behead a Ferengi, which you know is going to put him in a good mood! 

Amanda Plummer being the final villain that the TNG cast faces seems very appropriate, it feels like we've come full circle. She's going to be a ton of fun, with her over the top accent, smoking evil cigars on her giant chair of evil, playing nebula hide and seek with her will be a blast. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by tennisgurl

[paigow]

19 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I am also not a big fan of Jack himself yet, he's sort of a generic lovable rogue type so far, but we'll see. 

I looked up this definition in the Galactic Dictionary and found this picture...

[marinw]

17 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

 It just seems so out of character, but because it almost always makes the mom look really bad. Why would Beverly not tell Picard that she was pregnant with his child? 

And not letting Wesley know he has a brother.

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by marinw

[PurpleTentacle]

On 2/24/2023 at 2:42 AM, rtms77 said:

Sigh… first what has Gates McFadden done to her face! That’s not natural aging.

I would not have recognised her if they hadn't made it clear who she was in the trailer.

On 2/24/2023 at 2:42 AM, rtms77 said:

I realize Picard did not want to step on toes, but man I’d verbally kick Captain Shaw into next week if he talked to a superior officer like that. Alas he’s on a frayed shoestring taking over the ship now.

Picard is retired so not a superior officer anymore and Riker is a captain, so he has the same rank.

On 2/24/2023 at 2:42 AM, rtms77 said:

Shaw is clearly a bigot and a huge jerk who hides his inadequacies behind rules because he can’t think outside the box the way Riker and Picard can or even Seven. Hence why he’s assigned a explorer ship that has apparently been downgraded from the capable fighter it was under Riker. Although if your going to send out exploratory ships, why would Starfleet cut them off at the knees and not arm and shield them well?

Also, why would you make any ship actively worse? It's not like starfleet is strapped for parts.

The Titan being shit all of a sudden makes no sense. They really should have just set this on another ship. Maybe a California Class. It would have made more sense for 7 to be stationed there and it would make sense why it can't defend itself.

On 2/24/2023 at 3:28 AM, marinw said:

I have no doubt that in the 24th Century there is excellent birth control. Which nobody uses for some reason.

Considering how easy and quick major surgery is, sometimes to make you look like an alien race, you could probably get a sterilised and have it reversed if needed, in about 5 minutes.

On 2/24/2023 at 3:37 AM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

What annoys me is that Jack is going by Crusher when he's not descended from the Crusher family. If it's not Picard, it should be Howard, Beverly's maiden name.

That's not how that works now. Why should it work that way in the future?

Kids take the last name of one or both their parents, not their parents maiden names.

On 2/24/2023 at 3:39 AM, Stardancer Supreme said:

Listen, Shaw may be an asshat who clearly doesn't have the respect of his crew, but Riker and Picard outrank him.

They don't.

[Lebanna]

On 2/28/2023 at 11:55 AM, marinw said:

And not letting Wesley know he has a brother.

 

So, what you’re saying is that Wesley has a brother Jack. 

Or a Frère Jaques, as it were…

Gives an interesting extra edge to Picard’s attempts to play that tune on the flute for all those years. 

[dovegrey]

I liked the callback to Rios when Jack said he was part of Mariposa Medical something or other. Did not like another flashback at the beginning; it’s way overused as a narrative device on this show and I’m not sure this particular one added anything.

Riker and Picard both seemed to know that Picard had a son but just wasn’t sure that Jack was the son. At the least, Picard didn’t really seem surprised; resigned, more like. Beverly looked guilty. I’m curious how it’s going to be retconned. On this show alone, it’s odd that Q went to all the trouble to absolve Picard and empower him to have a love life last season but never bothered to mention Beverly or a long-abandoned kid. I feel like Q would have taunted Picard with that information.

Shaw is a weak captain but I respected that he instantly fell in line at the end to protect Picard’s son. And I can’t tell if the crew prefers Seven over him or if they’re just really uncomfortable with the nonstop command tension.

I really hated when Sydni said the other ship was “pissed off.” Old Trek’s decorum could be stuffy but it was aspirational. And her randomly referencing Geordi was clunky AF.

Raffi is annoying in all her impulsive tantrums. Love Worf but that story can end anytime.

At least we’re still on a starship. I’ll take it. 

[Peace 47]

I know it doesn’t make a ton of sense,  but Beverly and Geordi were always my favorite TNG characters (as a kid, I often identified with whatever girl power I could find, and I loved the Reading Rainbow guy), so I guess I feel protective of my own preconceived notions of Beverly’s character.  And while I’m glad that she is important to this season’s story (since she was done dirty in every single movie), the thought that she would keep a secret son from Jean-Luc seems anathema to everything I ever thought about her.  Whatever else they were, they were friends (she, his best friend on the Enterprise) with a deep, mutual respect, and keeping knowledge of a secret child does not track with that.  Some of you all have some interesting theories about what else is going on, so I’ll hold onto that for now.

But I have to say that I hate the long-lost son plot in general.  It’s such an annoying well for this franchise (Kirk and his son; “Bloodlines”).  Plus, it was always just a poignant character note for Picard that his duty to his career never left time for family.

On 2/23/2023 at 8:48 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

That actor is 35 years old and looks it. Is he supposed to play a 20 year old?

How can Jean-Luc not have already questioned this? This Jack dude looks as old as Will Wheaton, lol.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Peace 47

[tessaray]

There must be something wrong with me because I found myself sympathizing with Captain Shaw. (Well, except for the Cmdr Hansen thing.) 

I want to thank those who said the episode was worth it for Worf, because it kinda was.

[Ottis]

I don’t care that Crusher didn’t tell Picard about Junior. Kirk had the same thing happen, whatever.

I have a way bigger issue with Picard saying he wouldn’t hand over Jack “because he’s my son.” That is not how a leader thinks especially on Star Trek, and especially J-L Picard. That was blatant emotional pandering by the show.

I’m glad they gave Shaw a defined perspective, vs. the dick we saw at dinner. He’s not bad, he’s just specific.

[Sandman]

On 2/23/2023 at 5:47 AM, cambridgeguy said:

In a surprise to no one, Worf is the guy working with Raffi.  Unlike Riker and Picard he still seems pretty spry.

Well, to at least viewer (does this mean I haven’t been paying attention?). I might have emitted the tiniest squee when Worf showed up. 

[millennium]

This is okay so far, except for the Raffi interludes.

That said, it is obvious the show is being written by people who possess only a glancing familiarity with Jean Luc Picard, else Riker never would have uttered the words "You'd burn down the world for them" when trying to explain to Picard the thrill of having a son.  

Picard's surrogate son, his nephew Renee, was killed in a fire as a child.   Picard's reaction to Renee's death was the most poignant and traumatic moment of Star Trek: Generations.

A thoughtless, tone-deaf and bone-headed line of script.  Probably written by the same idiot who thought it would be a good idea to call Guinan's 21st century bar "Ten Forward" in Season 2.

 

P.S.   Is Marina Sirtis playing Deanna Troi or Marina Sirtis in this show?   Because the woman on the view screen haranguing Riker sounded a whole lot like Sirtis.

[dovegrey]

9 hours ago, millennium said:

P.S.   Is Marina Sirtis playing Deanna Troi or Marina Sirtis in this show?   Because the woman on the view screen haranguing Riker sounded a whole lot like Sirtis.

I feel like most all the legacy characters, including Seven, are acting more like their actors than their characters. It feels less like character development and more like “screw all that stuff from before.” 

[millennium]

3 hours ago, dovegrey said:

I feel like most all the legacy characters, including Seven, are acting more like their actors than their characters. It feels less like character development and more like “screw all that stuff from before.” 

I agree.  A similar thing happened with Shatner from Wrath of Khan forward.   He apparently decided to play a softer, more affable version of the character who was indistinguishable from Shatner himself.   I know there was a bit of that written into the plot -- Kirk facing middle age to pay off the rebirth theme of Genesis (the bifocals scene on the bridge still makes me cringe).   But jeez, Shatner was only 49 or 50 when he filmed Khan.   The guy who plays Captain Shaw is 54 years old and he's still as hard as nails.   It's like Shatner decided, I'm older, flabbier, why bother?  AFAIC, the iconic Captain Kirk vanished after Star Trek: The Movie.

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by millennium

[RedHawk]

On 2/23/2023 at 6:05 AM, starri said:

Well, we know Klingons age more slowly than humans.  Kor, Kang, and Koloth were all still pretty intimidating after 100 years on DS9. 

I guess Terry Matalas is going to be hiring a lot of people from 12 Monkeys.  I did not recognize Aaron Stanford at all as Sneed; I kept thinking it was perennial Trek guest star Clint Howard.

I also thought at first it was Clint Howard. Would have been great if it were. Maybe he was busy filming Ron Howard's next movie. 

On 2/24/2023 at 10:00 PM, dwmarch said:

Picard and Beverly shared a look that told Jean Luc everything he needed to know about Jack. Picard issued "Admiral's orders" to belay handing over Jack because "he's my son". Capt. Shaw said god damn it, the Titan fired a few torpedoes at the Shrike and ran for the nebula. Vadic gleefully ordered her crew to follow them and she cackles maniacally as the episode ends.

So maybe the look was actually "Hey, run with this and I'll explain later." ? Kinda hoping it was but previous comments lead me to think we've got another "he's your secret son!" plot. No way to make that not annoying, to me at least.

Edited April 30, 2023 by RedHawk
Left out a word

[rmontro]

I don't understand why Picard's "retired Admiral" rank was suddenly enough to take command, when it wasn't before.  I guess it was supposedly because he suddenly woke up and acted with authority?  

There are more than a few homages to The Wrath of Khan in this season so far.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 10/27/2023 at 6:34 PM, rmontro said:

I don't understand why Picard's "retired Admiral" rank was suddenly enough to take command, when it wasn't before.  I guess it was supposedly because he suddenly woke up and acted with authority?  

Picard and Riker were hoping to capitalize on it being the big Federation holiday to make it seem as though the Federation would allow a big shot like him to have a ceremonial role and do what he wants. The idea was that normally a captain might fanboy over Picard and do what he wants in such a situation. A gambit that might have worked if Captain Shaw was less careful and or antagonistic.

By contrast, in previous times there was no cover story for why Starfleet might just give even a momentary command of a starship to an ex-Admiral, and there would have been plenty of reasons for a random captain to call the bluff if they tried to use it.