S01.E06: Kin

[tennisgurl]

The first scene with the couple was hilarious, that was some much needed comedy after how the last episode ended. They just could not be bothered giving a single fuck about these two random people invading their house, it was great. Awesome to see Graham Greene show up. 

In general I am really glad that we got a break after the last two episodes were so filled with violence and tragedy, I kept waiting for the community to reveal some sort of dark secret, but it seems like it really is just a nice little agricultural commune. It was also really cool seeing Rutina Wesley here, especially because she isn't doing that weird performative voice thing she did so much on Queen Sugar. I think that her talk with Ellie wasn't so much about Joel in particular and more about trust and relationships in general, its not like she knows the guy. 

Tommy really couldn't have just sent his brother a quick message to let him know that he was alright? Never the less, it was great to see them reunite and their talk about Tommy being a dad soon was really good. I can imagine how many complicated feelings Joel would have about this and how many hard memories it would bring up, especially now that Tommy has found this idyllic new life and new family, while Joel is still running on desperation and just lost Tess a few months ago. 

Its too bad Joel and Ellie couldn't stay, at least for the winter, its such a nice little place where they could finally get some rest. Poor Joel just looks so tired, you can feel the exhaustion just radiating off of him. His face when he saw the women who had hair like his daughters was just...ugh. It hurts. 

Ellie and Joel had a great episode as a duo, so many ups and downs. They were so cute on the horse, with Joel talking about how much everyone loved contractors back in the day, and Ellie being so hurt by Joel wanting to leave her, even if he thought it was for the best. That wound does not look good...

[kay1864]

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Yeah, dogs can be trained to smell drugs, explosives, cash and some are even able to detect cancer. There's no reason they couldn't also smell a fungus inside someone.

They wouldn’t use truffle-hunting pigs? 😆

(something I would pay good money to see on this show)

Edited February 21, 2023 by kay1864

[Raachel2008]

21 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

A few episodes ago I wrote a comment about what I perceived at times to be an inappropriate traveling team of Joel and Ellie. Reddit called it "sexual tension" between the two and even that reference was considered appalling.

However, here I am again noting an inappropriate exchange between the two of them. When Joel is showing Ellie how to shoot that rifle, he says "squeeze the trigger like you love it, gentle steady nice and slow" to which Ellie replies "you gonna shoot this thing or get it pregnant." Joel gives her a look open for interpretation. 

And just like that, there it is right there. What viewers thought they saw, we now see a glimpse of. Joel should have left her back there... but in order for the show to continue he had to take her. It is too long for those two to be traveling together and it is moving to grey areas of what is inappropriate banter. He is an older man and he is NOT her father. 

There is not a single take, line, or scene in this show, directed, acted, edited or written in this way, not even in a subtext-y way. With all due respect, you are wrong and trying to create a discourse. 

I liked this episode a lot, but like many I wish they would just slow and we could have seen Joel staying with Tommy for a few days. I think that from a storytelling POV, would have been interesting to have Joel and Ellie experiencing this flourish comunnity, the kids, the adults - the elderly (?) - and seeing what a cure or some sort of immunity could reallyy mean for the people still alive. It would give, I think, some tangible purppose for their mission. Ellie only knows FEDRA, Bill and Frank are like some fairy tale, but this small comunnity is real, it a viable future.

Lovely acting by Bella Ramsay when she saw Tommy and Joel hugging and after reading the journal for whatever teen lived in that house in 2003.

I don't think Maria was being patronizing. I think she recognized right away that Ellie is lonely kid, attached to an adult that may or not leave her in the future, in a world where relationships are maybe not made to last.

The diva cup was a touch of genius. I adore like The Last of Us shows that women periods don't just stop because the apocalypse descendend on Earth. I find it revolutionary (and it shouldn't be): period poverty is a realty righ now, in our world, and like that somehow this enlightens it in a way. Go, Mazin.

Amazing acting by Pedro Pascal. You can see that Joel is tired and knows he is getting physically old in a world that need you to run, and fight and all that. And he is getting more attached to Ellie by the minute.

Tommy was a dick for not telling Joel he was ok and Joel could have told, when he was leaving, something like 'you are going to be a good father'.

I really hope the next time we the see these people they are alive.

And I really really hope they don't kill Graham Greene and Elaine.

I have a  question, though: why people would look at Ellie's scar and assume it can only be the result of a infected's bite? Could they pass it for something else, like, she fell on barbed wire or such?

Edited February 21, 2023 by Raachel2008

[conquistador]

(Joel gets stabbed in the abdomen)

Me: Oh no, that’s really bad Joel. But it’s okay, just don’t pull out the knife and at least we can avoid you bleeding out. And then…

(Joel immediately pulls out the knife)

Me: OK, you did that thing with the knife there. It’s fine! It’s not optimal, but we’ll manage. Let’s get you up on the horse, let him carry you so you can rest. Eventually we can…

(Joel immediately rolls off horse)

Me: Listen Joel, I’m quickly running out of options.

[paigow]

6 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

The diva cup was a touch of genius...

Seems to be a lot of women of the correct age group in Jackson who would need a diva cup... Did they find a truckload of them somewhere??? Or do some girls have to share now???

[Ilovepie]

On 2/20/2023 at 8:40 AM, Artsda said:

I guess it's the Walking Dead watching in me that I expected the great town behind the walls to be too good to be true. Nice they actually left without any happening. 

Ha! Same, only with that horse. I am still traumatized by what happened to horses on Walking Dead. When they tethered the horse to the tree, I was like nooooooo!!!! Glad the horse got out of there alive, Joel on the other hand........if this is the end for him, well, see you in a couple weeks Din Djarin!

I know Joel is messed up by everything he's lived through, but to say Ellie can't understand is pretty messed up. She's a freaking orphan - she knows loss! I thought it was a good scene, and I do think Bella is a great actress, but I think she could have played that comeback even more unhinged in that moment.

[shelley1234]

13 minutes ago, paigow said:

Seems to be a lot of women of the correct age group in Jackson who would need a diva cup... Did they find a truckload of them somewhere??? Or do some girls have to share now???

Go on a field trip the next time you are in a CVS or a Target, go to the feminine hygiene aisle....and just see how many menstrual cups of many different types are there.  It's mainly because not many people are buying them vs. tampons/pads, but I'd say there are plenty to go around and then some for such a small community (especially since a cup can last for 5 or 10 years if not longer). 

[Capricasix]

14 hours ago, Nashville said:

It’s possible, but it ain’t real damn likely; my oldest daughter graced us with our first grandchild a couple of weeks before Thanksgiving - but hers was treated as a “high-risk” pregnancy due to her age, and she was only 34.  

That’s interesting - I was 34 when I had my second child, and I’m glad they didn’t call mine a geriatric pregnancy 😄 And that was in 2005!

Edited February 21, 2023 by Capricasix

[Dev F]

23 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I have a  question, though: why people would look at Ellie's scar and assume it can only be the result of a infected's bite? Could they pass it for something else, like, she fell on barbed wire or such?

It looks like there's a telltale pattern of fungal fibers that spreads out from the bite under the skin. Since Ellie's infection doesn't seem to be spreading anymore, it's possible she could dig out the fibers or something, but it seems like that would be a complicated, painful, and possibly damaging procedure.

[Raachel2008]

32 minutes ago, paigow said:

Seems to be a lot of women of the correct age group in Jackson who would need a diva cup... Did they find a truckload of them somewhere??? Or do some girls have to share now???

I guess they've raided the nearest towns and took whatever they could.

[go4luca]

22 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

A few episodes ago I wrote a comment about what I perceived at times to be an inappropriate traveling team of Joel and Ellie. Reddit called it "sexual tension" between the two and even that reference was considered appalling.

However, here I am again noting an inappropriate exchange between the two of them. When Joel is showing Ellie how to shoot that rifle, he says "squeeze the trigger like you love it, gentle steady nice and slow" to which Ellie replies "you gonna shoot this thing or get it pregnant." Joel gives her a look open for interpretation. 

And just like that, there it is right there. What viewers thought they saw, we now see a glimpse of. Joel should have left her back there... but in order for the show to continue he had to take her. It is too long for those two to be traveling together and it is moving to grey areas of what is inappropriate banter. He is an older man and he is NOT her father. 

There is absolutely nothing, as in zip, N-A-D-A, zilch - sexual going on between Joel & Ellie.  The show runners themselves, during the after show of episode 6, discuss how Joel is now seeing Ellie as a daughter.

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

There is not a single take, line, or scene in this how, directed, acted, edited or written in this way, not even in a subtext-y way. With all due respect, you are wrong and trying to create a discourse. 

+ 💯 and thank you for putting it much more succinctly than I could.

Edited February 21, 2023 by go4luca
clarity

[LoveLeigh]

3 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

 With all due respect, you are wrong and trying to create a discourse. 

You can disagree with my opinion, but with regard to the conclusions about my intent you are totally wrong. I have not even responded here to the many who have disagreed with me... thereby not giving any legs to a debate.

Edited February 22, 2023 by LoveLeigh

[Kel Varnsen]

On 2/20/2023 at 1:23 PM, kay1864 said:

Same! I get the impression they took over an existing town, but enough liquor and feed for 10 years is already there? Doesn’t make sense.

If they can farm and they can grow grain, making alcohol shouldn't be that much of a jump. And with 20 years of practice you would probably get good at it. Not to mention the look that Joel gave his brother after taking a sip seemed like "you made this?".

[Nashville]

On 2/20/2023 at 12:23 PM, kay1864 said:

Same! I get the impression they took over an existing town, but enough liquor and feed for 10 years is already there? Doesn’t make sense.

They have hothouses.  
Therefore, they can raise grains year-round.  
Therefore, they can have alcohol year-round.

[CooperTV]

5 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

You can disagree with my opinion

There's literally nothing to debate here. You're just factually incorrect in your assumptions. There's not going to be a "gotcha" moment there.

Edited February 22, 2023 by CooperTV

[LoveLeigh]

2 hours ago, CooperTV said:

There's literally nothing to debate here. You're just factually incorrect in your assumptions. There's not going to be a "gotcha" moment there.

I would not think there would be a "gotcha" moment. However, I worked in CPS, and our first priorIty was always to protect the child regardless of any perceived assumptions. Protection. It would not be considered an appropriate living arrangement for a 14 year old girl to be living alone with a man in his 40s who was not her father or adoptive father or relative. It would be looked at with a jaundiced eye even though there was no evidence at all of any sexual misconduct. 

So while a father/daughter relationship might be developing between Joel and Ellie, a healthier situation would be considered more acceptable and that is why I said at the first opportunity Joel should have left her back there. At first they were a team traveling together. But within this episode it was (emotional) "needs" that kept them together when there was another option.

But this is fiction, a make believe story, a TV show... so it will advance and my opinion remains strong and I accept I stand alone in my perceptions. 

[CooperTV]

41 minutes ago, LoveLeigh said:

I would not think there would be a "gotcha" moment. However, I worked in CPS, and our first priorIty was always to protect the child regardless of any perceived assumptions. Protection. It would not be considered an appropriate living arrangement for a 14 year old girl to be living alone with a man in his 40s who was not her father or adoptive father or relative. It would be looked at with a jaundiced eye even though there was no evidence at all of any sexual misconduct. 

I appreciate your work and dedication to the cause.

What that has to do with you're being not only completely wrong about the relationship between Joel and Ellie but still insisting it's inappropriate ans sexually charged despite it's not being that way is anyone's guess.

[cardigirl]

10 hours ago, Nashville said:

They have hothouses.  
Therefore, they can raise grains year-round.  
Therefore, they can have alcohol year-round.

That is something I've been wondering about. I guess you could make grain alcohol with corn, but wasn't flour (wheat) suspect is the initial spreading of the fungus?  Yet there was bread with Joel and Ellie's meal in Laramie.

_____________________________________________________________

Late night musings ...

One other thing that I thought about, because I might be a wee bit obsessed with the show, was Maria's rather complicated hairstyle. Seems that would take a lot of time and resources to maintain, and thus didn't fit into the idea of being in a post-apocalyptic time.

Minor detail but with the internet going nuts over two production personnel showing up on screen, I thought I'd mention it and see if anyone else was wondering about the same thing.

[cardigirl]

14 hours ago, Capricasix said:

That’s interesting - I was 34 when I had my second child, and I’m glad they didn’t call mine a geriatric pregnancy 😄 And that was in 2005!

I was 31 when I had my second child and remember the gynecologist saying I was one of his oldest pregnant patients. 😒 That was way back in 1983! 

[bitchin camaro]

3 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

I would not think there would be a "gotcha" moment. However, I worked in CPS, and our first priorIty was always to protect the child regardless of any perceived assumptions. Protection. It would not be considered an appropriate living arrangement for a 14 year old girl to be living alone with a man in his 40s who was not her father or adoptive father or relative. It would be looked at with a jaundiced eye even though there was no evidence at all of any sexual misconduct. 

So while a father/daughter relationship might be developing between Joel and Ellie, a healthier situation would be considered more acceptable and that is why I said at the first opportunity Joel should have left her back there. At first they were a team traveling together. But within this episode it was (emotional) "needs" that kept them together when there was another option.

But this is fiction, a make believe story, a TV show... so it will advance and my opinion remains strong and I accept I stand alone in my perceptions. 

Did you miss the part where it’s the apocalypse and she’d be dead if the fireflies hadn’t scooped her up and put her with what was the best/only option at the time? 

[Capricasix]

34 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

inor detail but with the internet going nuts over two production personnel showing up on screen, I thought I'd mention it and see if anyone else was wondering about the same thing.

I wouldn’t even have noticed if I hadn’t seen it pointed out 😄

[paigow]

44 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

but wasn't flour (wheat) suspect is the initial spreading of the fungus?  Yet there was bread with Joel and Ellie's meal in Laramie.

Spelt bread... even fungus would be repulsed...

[paramitch]

23 hours ago, bethy said:

Yes. And I think that there are older, caretaking sibling/younger, matured sibling dynamics at play. Both men are negotiating the change in their relationship, hence both of them lashing out at each other when Joel makes assumptions about Tommy and Tommy pushes back/rebels against Joel as an authority. What’s so lovely is that they’re able then to come back together and start to interact with each other more as equals as both of them are willing to make adjustments.

This was beautifully put. I definitely agree. It was also one of my favorite things about that scene -- especially how each of the two men is readjusting their visions of each other. Tommy, realizing his brother isn't the cold, closed-off, man he remembers after Sarah's death, and Joel, realizing "little brother" Tommy is a capable, middle-aged man like himself, with plenty of regrets, but who also has built a genuinely safe and beautiful life for himself with Maria and the town.

23 hours ago, Dev F said:

The showrunners point out in the podcast for this episode that Mercy, the dog in the first episode, did seem to sense that there was something wrong with the old lady when she was first infected.

Edited to add: Wait, no, looking back at the podcast I don't see where they say that, but I definitely saw someone bring it up somewhere.

We definitely saw strong implications of that, at the very least. The dog seemed to sense it way before any of the humans, and then of course ran to Sarah for help. Which tracks for me -- as others commented, animals have been shown to be amazingly perceptive when it comes to illnesses/health changes in humans. And something like this -- a fungoid plague -- I have to imagine that smells extremely palpable to a dog, for instance.

23 hours ago, Capricasix said:

I friggin love this show. I’m always thinking about it. I was listening to the podcast while driving a few minutes ago, and it occurred to me that Joel reminds me of Stu Redman from The Stand (I developed a huge crush on Gary Sinise after watching that). Stu and Joel are both from Texas, albeit East Texas in Stu’s case; they’re roughly the same age although I think Joel’s a bit older; and they both have to make their way across the US after a pandemic. They’re both good with their hands (this is not the place for fanfiction Capricasix STOP IT RIGHT NOW) and can look after themselves and others in the outdoors.

Also, Joel and Ellie are a clan of two 🥲

I love this parallel -- Stu is one of my favorite fictional characters (and I thought Gary Sinise was perfect casting when they made the miniseries). I think Stu is a bit younger, sweeter, and sunnier than Joel, but they'd definitely get along at a barbecue.

Also, I would totally read that fanfiction.

20 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

In general I am really glad that we got a break after the last two episodes were so filled with violence and tragedy, I kept waiting for the community to reveal some sort of dark secret, but it seems like it really is just a nice little agricultural commune. It was also really cool seeing Rutina Wesley here, especially because she isn't doing that weird performative voice thing she did so much on Queen Sugar. I think that her talk with Ellie wasn't so much about Joel in particular and more about trust and relationships in general, its not like she knows the guy. 

Tommy really couldn't have just sent his brother a quick message to let him know that he was alright? Never the less, it was great to see them reunite and their talk about Tommy being a dad soon was really good. I can imagine how many complicated feelings Joel would have about this and how many hard memories it would bring up, especially now that Tommy has found this idyllic new life and new family, while Joel is still running on desperation and just lost Tess a few months ago. 

Its too bad Joel and Ellie couldn't stay, at least for the winter, its such a nice little place where they could finally get some rest. Poor Joel just looks so tired, you can feel the exhaustion just radiating off of him. His face when he saw the women who had hair like his daughters was just...ugh. It hurts. 

Yeah, you know you've seen too much WALKING DEAD (before I noped out after season 4) when you're like, "When are we going to find out they're actually eating people? Or raiders who are human traffickers? Or fungus sympathizers/worshippers? WHEN? WHEN?!"

And of course it was all fine and this was genuinely a good settlement. I am so grateful to Mazin and Druckmann for that, seriously. Not just because we need that occasional break from constant trauma to these characters, but also because it continues to add a ray of light to the show's depiction of humanity. It's by now a classic trope with this kind of story that almost everyone they meet must be evil, but TLOU is really showing a rich combination of personalities, behaviors, and communities that I find very realistic.

I loved Maria, and loved the quiet way Rutina performed her (I've always adored her since "True Blood" and "Hannibal"). To me, Maria embodied the best of the town -- cautious and willing to be ruthless with strangers if necessary, but also kind, smart, and empathetic. And if Tommy was honest with her about Joel's past (it's not as apparent that he owned up to his OWN stuff, however), it's no wonder she was cautious around Joel as she sized him up. I loved every single interaction she had with Ellie.

While I get that Joel wanted to finish the mission, I honestly thought it was irresponsible of him not to at least stay a few nights or a week. They genuinely needed to rest and recuperate.

17 hours ago, kay1864 said:

They wouldn’t use truffle-hunting pigs? 😆

(something I would pay good money to see on this show)

Thank you for this. I immediately imagined gleeful, puzzled, then terrified truffle pigs fleeing from Infected and laughed out loud.

15 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Tommy was a dick for not telling Joel he was ok and Joel could have told, when he was leaving, something like 'you are going to be a good father'.

I really hope the next time we the see these people they are alive.

And I really really hope they don't kill Graham Greene and Elaine.

I agree that Tommy should have sent at least a terse "I'm safe" message to Joel, but upon consideration, I think it was a little more complicated -- Tommy knew that Joel was occasionally involved in some pretty shady stuff, so he didn't want to risk communicating enough to get Joel to come out and join him if he was going to have other perhaps rough followers with him or attempt to involve himself in the group.

15 hours ago, conquistador said:

(Joel gets stabbed in the abdomen)

Me: Oh no, that’s really bad Joel. But it’s okay, just don’t pull out the knife and at least we can avoid you bleeding out. And then…

(Joel immediately pulls out the knife)

Me: OK, you did that thing with the knife there. It’s fine! It’s not optimal, but we’ll manage. Let’s get you up on the horse, let him carry you so you can rest. Eventually we can…

(Joel immediately rolls off horse)

Me: Listen Joel, I’m quickly running out of options.

Get out of my brain! This was exactly what I was thinking at every succeeding moment. Only you were funnier than my brain was.

15 hours ago, Dev F said:

It looks like there's a telltale pattern of fungal fibers that spreads out from the bite under the skin. Since Ellie's infection doesn't seem to be spreading anymore, it's possible she could dig out the fibers or something, but it seems like that would be a complicated, painful, and possibly damaging procedure.

This! It's really interesting, but the thing with Ellie seems to be that you can actually see the delicate veins of the Cordyceps infection extending from the bite, but she is not actually changed or infected.

11 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

If they can farm and they can grow grain, making alcohol shouldn't be that much of a jump. And with 20 years of practice you would probably get good at it. Not to mention the look that Joel gave his brother after taking a sip seemed like "you made this?".

As demonstrated by the heroic souls who brew toilet wine in prison, not to mention the aficionados of "chewed" fermented beverages from the Pacific Islands to Japan (mostly using human spit, aghgh, nope nope nope), people can make alcohol out of almost anything.

People make alcohol in two primary ways -- fermentation, and by distillery. 

Fermentation is SUPER easy, which is why people across thousands of years and a rich variety of cultures have been able to do it with a rich variety of base substances high in sugar, from everything to fruits and saps, to (leaping forward) any fruits and high-sugar items, including theoretical apocalyptic canned fruits and even things like canned beans, jellies, etc. You can also ferment items high in starch although they will have to be converted into sugar first (via malting to release enzymes). But it's doable even after the world ends.

Will it taste good? not always. Will it get you drunk? Most definitely.

Yes, as a nerd, I looked all of this up to get the exact info -- I had a hazy understanding but wanted to make sure I was accurate. But one thing I am sure of is that even in the apocalypse, there will be some kind of booze.

[paramitch]

3 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

I would not think there would be a "gotcha" moment. However, I worked in CPS, and our first priorIty was always to protect the child regardless of any perceived assumptions. Protection. It would not be considered an appropriate living arrangement for a 14 year old girl to be living alone with a man in his 40s who was not her father or adoptive father or relative. It would be looked at with a jaundiced eye even though there was no evidence at all of any sexual misconduct. 

So while a father/daughter relationship might be developing between Joel and Ellie, a healthier situation would be considered more acceptable and that is why I said at the first opportunity Joel should have left her back there. At first they were a team traveling together. But within this episode it was (emotional) "needs" that kept them together when there was another option.

But this is fiction, a make believe story, a TV show... so it will advance and my opinion remains strong and I accept I stand alone in my perceptions. 

With all respect to your CPS experience, while yes, a more ideal or "appropriate living arrangement" should be provided to Ellie than Joel, we're dealing with the end of life as we know it. Meanwhile, er, did you miss the entire previous 5 episodes? This man didn't leap at the chance to help or shepherd her. He adamantly did NOT want this responsibility. But he didn't refuse it because he still has some inherent decency.

By the rules you yourself have put forward, NO ONE can save Ellie (or help her to help humanity) because ANY ADULT traveling with her is inappropriate and doing so with ulterior suspect/sexual motives.

For me, the irony here is that while you think Joel should have surrendered or abandoned Ellie in the town (despite the fact that not a single person in that town would meet the standards you have set forward, citing even a female protector as having "Letourneau" vibes), he is the best choice for her now more than ever. After several months of travel and guardianship, Joel is visibly the SAFEST option because he is openly paternal towards her, shows no ulterior sexual or abusive motives, and he has risked his life to get her to safety. Any questioning of Ellie about her treatment by Joel for CPS, for instance, would elicit zero red flags in terms of abuse or grooming (and even if I believed Ellie was "flirting" inappropriately with him, which I adamantly don't, there is zero evidence of Joel responding to that).

What else do you need here? Who do you think should try to save Ellie in this scenario instead?

[CooperTV]

23 minutes ago, paramitch said:

not to mention the aficionados of "chewed" fermented beverages from the Pacific Islands to Japan (mostly using human spit, aghgh, nope nope nope)

Speaking of which, that process is shown in the traditional ritual in the animated movie by Makoto Shinkai called Your Name.

That was my random trivia for the day.

[Kel Varnsen]

37 minutes ago, paramitch said:

People make alcohol in two primary ways -- fermentation, and by distillery. 

Yea making alcohol just to get drunk shouldn't be that hard. People were doing it for 1000's of years before writing was even invented. And people making beer have only really understood what yeast was for the last about 150 years.

I make beer at home and while it is hard to make something good if your standards are low it wouldn't be too difficult. Distilling something like beer into something like whisky might be harder but 20 years is a long time to get good at it. 

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

People were doing it for 1000's of years before writing was even invented.

Apes developed a ferment for metabolizing alcohol from fruit gone bad probably couple millions years ago. So it's only natural first homo sapiens figured it out that if you leave some fruit juice alone for some time in certain temperatures, fruit based yeast would do the job.

[paigow]

Who manufactured the diva cup??? Maybe Chekhov? Can it be repurposed to plug the gaping stab wound?

[conquistador]

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

(and even if I believed Ellie was "flirting" inappropriately with him, which I adamantly don't, there is zero evidence of Joel responding to that).

What else do you need here? Who do you think should try to save Ellie in this scenario instead?

It is now the second week where this hot take (that nobody agrees with) has taken over the discussion…

For comparison’s sake, let me point out that there actually happens to be a mainstream movie with a seasoned middle-aged killer, who reluctantly becomes a mentor for a teenage girl - and their relationship does have sexual undertones. I’m talking about Léon - the professional. If nothing else, the movie should serve well as an example for how the direction could have been if they wanted that kind of story.

[Capricasix]

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

I love this parallel -- Stu is one of my favorite fictional characters (and I thought Gary Sinise was perfect casting when they made the miniseries). I think Stu is a bit younger, sweeter, and sunnier than Joel, but they'd definitely get along at a barbecue.

Also, I would totally read that fanfiction.

😉
 

Hell, they even had alcohol on the Nebuchadnezzar in the Matrix! Good for getting drunk and degreasing engines 😄

Edited February 22, 2023 by Capricasix

[CooperTV]

11 minutes ago, conquistador said:

It is now the second week where this hot take (that nobody agrees with) has taken over the discussion…

And what's more, we can have an interesting discussion about this topic based on number of movies, not only Léon. For example, there was a recent movie about young prostitute called Redeeming Love, and the director showed in horrible detail how women, especially young girls, are sexually exploited, abused and degraded.

Or the French movie based on the play by Collette called Mademoiselle Gigi describes how 15-year-old schoolgirls are basically sold as sex dolls to the rich businessmen by their mothers (who had experienced the same fate).

But instead, for some inexplicable reason, TloU is chosen as an example of potential sexual misconduct with underaged girls, and how Joel, the beloved father figure of the last generation, has no right to raise and teach a teenage girl who reminds him of his late daughter.

[LoveLeigh]

6 hours ago, CooperTV said:

I appreciate your work and dedication to the cause.

What that has to do with you're being not only completely wrong about the relationship between Joel and Ellie but still insisting it's inappropriate ans sexually charged despite it's not being that way is anyone's guess.

Wrong. I am NOT insisting. It is MY opinion. You have yours. There is nothing stubborn in my personal opinion especially when I am not trying to convince or persuade others to agree. 

[Capricasix]

Did I mention yet how much I love this show? 😄 I’m rewatching this episode, and I just thought that there’s very little that’s random in every episode - Mazin and Druckmann have ensured that almost everything is purposeful. And so much of the action is nonverbal. Example: after J&E have their meal in the dining hall in Jackson, Tommy and Maria give them a tour of the town. Joel asks how they keep the place quiet, and one of the things Maria says is “we stay off the radio”. Joel gives Tommy a Look, and Tommy looks back sheepishly. I missed this the first time round, but it says so much without using any words at all.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, conquistador said:

I’m talking about Léon - the professional. If nothing else, the movie should serve well as an example for how the direction could have been if they wanted that kind of story.

Leon was a simpleton... But he knew that Matilda was off limits. However, she was the aggressor... Declaring her love, telling the hotel manager that Leon was her lover.... 

[BasilSeal]

8 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

It would not be considered an appropriate living arrangement for a 14 year old girl to be living alone with a man in his 40s who was not her father or adoptive father or relative. It would be looked at with a jaundiced eye even though there was no evidence at all of any sexual misconduct. 

So the crux of your argument is essentially that it's simply inappropriate for a middle aged man to to be a surrogate father to a teenage girl because no man could be trusted not to behave like a massive nonce in such circumstances?

Which is kind of insulting to the 99.9999% of middle aged men who aren't massive nonces , and also says rather more about you than it does about the show or how it depicts the relationship between Joel and Ellie.

[Absurda]

Okay, Graham Greene and Elaine Miles are the tv couple I never knew I needed.  I would love to see some brief vignettes of this couple together.  Not as part of the main show but maybe as extras. 

Consider Joel as Ellie's adoptive or foster father.  That's really the relationship between them but there's no court or paperwork left to make it "official".

I can understand why Joel was salty with Tommy.  Here he was worried sick, so convinced that his last family was in trouble that he set out across country to find Tommy.  In the process he lost Tess and was saddled with a kid who is dependent on him and reminding him of past failures; a responsibility he didn't want.  The whole time Tommy was safe and cozy in a luxurious community with a wife and kid on the way.  I'd be pissed, too, once the initial relief and joy wore off.

If Hawkeye can have a still in a tent in the middle of the Korean War and moonshiners can have them in the middle of the woods, then they can have stills after the apocalypse. 

[shelley1234]

25 minutes ago, BasilSeal said:

So the crux of your argument is essentially that it's simply inappropriate for a middle aged man to to be a surrogate father to a teenage girl because no man could be trusted not to behave like a massive nonce in such circumstances?

Which is kind of insulting to the 99.9999% of middle aged men who aren't massive nonces , and also says rather more about you than it does about the show or how it depicts the relationship between Joel and Ellie.

💯 agree.  I think someone can be a parental or mentoring influence and not share DNA and not have any inappropriate undertones.  I've seen some really wonderful examples of people becoming family because the family you choose, you know....  

When Joel asked Ellie in the midst of the zombie attack in KC if she trusted him....it was an absolute yes.  And for me that is also one of the many reasons she was so upset and hurt when Joel was going to send her along with Tommy.  She knows Joel, she trusts Joel and feels safe with Joel.  I'd make an educated guess she has never had that before.   When she tells a passed out Joel in the final scene that she can't do this without him...she means it.  

Joel doesn't share any DNA with her, but he's the only parent she's ever known.  I love seeing that bond grow...from her going from annoying cargo to family.  And there is no sexual implication, undercurrent or anything between the two.  He cares for her like she is his daughter and vice versa.  

[BasilSeal]

4 hours ago, paramitch said:

Yeah, you know you've seen too much WALKING DEAD (before I noped out after season 4) when you're like, "When are we going to find out they're actually eating people? Or raiders who are human traffickers? Or fungus sympathizers/worshippers? WHEN? WHEN?!"

There are a couple of points where I thought, THIS is the bit where we find out they're planning to eat Ellie or feed her to the giant fungus god in the basement they have to appease with human sacrifice but no, we finally get an apocalyptic community that not only works, but which our heroes manage to leave without first turning it into a smoking ruin TWD style.

Not the first time that this show has managed to buck the trend of apocalyptic tropes though, in episode three Bill has a plan to survive that actually works and allows him to live out the rest of his life on his own terms, find love and live as his true self, which never happens in this genre because the story usually revolves around things going wrong with such best laid plans.

Having a protagonist that did everything right, and survived because of it, is even more of a revolutionary plot twist for the genre than having Q Anon prepper guy turn out to be a fan of musical theatre.

Comparisons with TWD are inevitable, but where this show is streets ahead is in the theme of the morality of survival and the idea  that anyone who has survived until now is in some way morally compromised because they will almost certainly have survived at the expense of others. In TWD the attempt to portray the characters' moral ambiguity tended to descend into an incoherent mess where one minute they're indulging in impractical levels of altruism, and the next decide to simply say 'feck it, kill them all and let god sort them out'. For no apparent good reason.

A common theme for apocalyptic fiction is that the real monsters are the other people  who have been forced to do terrible things by impossible circumstances and TLoU conveys this idea perfectly, in the apocalypse there are no good guys, just different shades of grey.

The zombies in TLoU are very much in the background and rightly so, they're not something that's brought out regularly to compensate for poor plot and characterisation in a 'look, over there, zombies, how cool is that?' manner.

We know more about the complex characters of the protagonists after just six episodes than we do many of the TWD characters after 12 years.

8 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

When Joel asked Ellie in the midst of the zombie attack in KC if she trusted him....it was an absolute yes.  And for me that is also one of the many reasons she was so upset and hurt when Joel was going to send her along with Tommy.  She knows Joel, she trusts Joel and feels safe with Joel.  I'd make an educated guess she has never had that before.   When she tells a passed out Joel in the final scene that she can't do this without him...she means it.  

Indeed, there's so much conveyed between the two characters, these really are  stellar performances from Bella Ramsey and Pedro Pascal, things like the fleeting look of dismay from Ellie when she sees Joel embrace Tommy, like she may have lost him because he's found his real family now. Or the scene where he's teaching her to shoot having flatly refused to do so before, he's finally letting down his barriers and allowing himself to care about her, and overcoming his fear that he will fail to protect her if he allows himself to care.

The episode leaves us with the irony that Joel is now entirely dependent on Ellie if he is to survive, though one would think that Ellie will need some help with this endeavour from a conveniently passing third party. I'm pretty sure Joel has to survive this injury, because he's the main character but also because if he's dead what was the point of all the is he isn't he about to have a heart attack foreshadowing stuff? I'm just not sure quite how he will credibly survive this injury without proper medical help though. Bet they do a flashback episode next week to keep us hanging on for a bit longer to find out, though that's another annoying TWD trop i'd like to see them subvert.

[go4luca]

1 hour ago, BasilSeal said:

So the crux of your argument is essentially that it's simply inappropriate for a middle aged man to to be a surrogate father to a teenage girl because no man could be trusted not to behave like a massive nonce in such circumstances?

Which is kind of insulting to the 99.9999% of middle aged men who aren't massive nonces , and also says rather more about you than it does about the show or how it depicts the relationship between Joel and Ellie.

For someone to have this kind of thinking, were they themselves abused somehow?  I certainly hope not but that's the only answer that makes sense to me.  Especially when the show runners themselves have explained a relationship that is not sexual in nature.

[BasilSeal]

23 minutes ago, go4luca said:

For someone to have this kind of thinking, were they themselves abused somehow?  I certainly hope not but that's the only answer that makes sense to me.  Especially when the show runners themselves have explained a relationship that is not sexual in nature.

from a child protection point of view one might concede that a single man wanting to adopt a teenage girl might be subject to  some scrutiny, but one would hope so, as would any prospective adoptive parent(s), be they male female, gay or straight.

We know that some men behave inappropriately towards women, we know that some men target vulnerable  young  girls in a predatory manner, this stuff happens and it absolutely shouldn't, but it's a massive leap from saying it can happen to saying that no man should ever be a father figure or mentor to a young girl because some men have behaved like this, and then desperately trying to read some sort of creepy subtext into such a relationship depicted in drama to justify this belief.

It says something about society if we can't view a entirely appropriate adult child relationship like Joel and Ellie without thinking Joel is some sort of pervert.

Edited February 22, 2023 by BasilSeal

[cambridgeguy]

On 2/21/2023 at 12:37 PM, tennisgurl said:

Its too bad Joel and Ellie couldn't stay, at least for the winter, its such a nice little place where they could finally get some rest. Poor Joel just looks so tired, you can feel the exhaustion just radiating off of him. His face when he saw the women who had hair like his daughters was just...ugh. It hurts. 

In reality they'd have to stay a while - after walking from KC to Wyoming with minimal supplies they'd be skin and bones and in no condition to handle the dangers that are supposed to lie on the path to the Fireflies.  But because it's a TV show, one night of sleep and a good meal has completely replenished their health bars and stamina, so they're good to go.  It's the same reason why Joel's injury, which would likely be fatal in the real world, is far more likely to be a moderate inconvenience. 

[izabella]

Where is the commune located?  Is it in Wyoming, where Joel thought Tommy was?  And are they heading to Utah now (provided Joel survives somehow), to find the scientists...or someone?  Utah would be an interesting place to see.  Mormons are famous for stockpiling supplies at home for apocalyptic emergencies, so I imagine some people in Utah would be doing ok at this point, provided they survived the zombies.

My big question for this episode was why didn't Joel ask his brother if there were any scientists or doctors in the community.  Maybe someone there would know what to do with Ellie's blood to turn it into a vaccine.  Maybe not, but he didn't even ask!

[cambridgeguy]

5 minutes ago, izabella said:

Where is the commune located?  Is it in Wyoming, where Joel thought Tommy was?  And are they heading to Utah now (provided Joel survives somehow), to find the scientists...or someone?

The commune is in Jackson, Wyoming.  Eastern Colorado University doesn't exist, but since they went down I-25 the closest real world equivalent is Colorado State University (which has a ram as its mascot). 

[go4luca]

1 hour ago, BasilSeal said:

from a child protection point of view one might concede that a single man wanting to adopt a teenage girl might be subject to  some scrutiny, but one would hope so, as would any prospective adoptive parent(s), be they male female, gay or straight.

We know that some men behave inappropriately towards women, we know that some men target vulnerable  young  girls in a predatory manner, this stuff happens and it absolutely shouldn't, but it's a massive leap from saying it can happen to saying that no man should ever be a father figure or mentor to a young girl because some men have behaved like this, and then desperately trying to read some sort of creepy subtext into such a relationship depicted in drama to justify this belief.

It says something about society if we can't view a entirely appropriate adult child relationship like Joel and Ellie without thinking Joel is some sort of pervert.

I grasp where you're going but seeing someone bring this up numerous times over multiple episode threads, makes me question the author's own background. 

Or perhaps I've watched too many episodes of SVU.

Edited February 22, 2023 by go4luca

[Dev F]

3 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

So the crux of your argument is essentially that it's simply inappropriate for a middle aged man to to be a surrogate father to a teenage girl because no man could be trusted not to behave like a massive nonce in such circumstances?

Which is kind of insulting to the 99.9999% of middle aged men who aren't massive nonces , and also says rather more about you than it does about the show or how it depicts the relationship between Joel and Ellie.

It's also kind of a motte-and-bailey argument, because it makes this into a question about social values that most of us are probably ill equipped to debate—certainly not without taking the thread wildly off topic!—but the argument was originally something much more specific than that. It wasn't just that a foster relationship between a teen girl and an unrelated single man was inherently risky, it was that the the characters themselves were engaging in behavior with disturbing romantic undertones. And that's an argument we as fans are very well equipped to dispute, because we all have eyes and ears and we've noticed nothing of the sort.

Let's not get drawn into attacking the motte here when the bailey is so completely vulnerable. It's a simple question: Do we think that the scene of Joel and Ellie resting in separate sleeping bags five feet apart, not even looking toward each other, and laughing over a joke about diarrhea, betrays some creepy sexual tension? How about a scene where they're wearing big puffy jackets and peering through binoculars and a rifle sight at a distant shooting target, one of them makes a "That's what she said" joke, and the other gives her a disapproving look? If the answer to that question is "Of course not, that's preposterous," nothing more need be said.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Dev F

[LoveLeigh]

4 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

So the crux of your argument is essentially that it's simply inappropriate for a middle aged man to to be a surrogate father to a teenage girl because no man could be trusted not to behave like a massive nonce in such circumstances?

Which is kind of insulting to the 99.9999% of middle aged men who aren't massive nonces , and also says rather more about you than it does about the show or how it depicts the relationship between Joel and Ellie.

I am not presenting an "argument." I do not view this as a debate. I stated my personal opinion and I am not trying to convince others to internalize my opinion, and I do not care if anybody agrees with me. 

I am fine with your conclusions about me (which may or may not be correct) based on my personal opinion about Joel and Ellie's relationship.

[Superb Owl]

But I don't understand why somebody so sguigged out as what they perceive as an inappropriate man/child

relationship is still watching the show.

(This was asked previously by another poster, so if it's been answered already, my apologies). 

[LoveLeigh]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

It's also kind of a motte-and-bailey argument, It's a simple question: Do we think that the scene of Joel and Ellie resting in separate sleeping bags five feet apart, not even looking toward each other....

The label would be correct regarding a motte-and-bailey argument if I was part of some "argument" where the arguer (me) is trying to advance a controversial position and convince others, when challenged, that I am only advancing the more modest position.

I insist nothing. I am advancing nothing. I stated my opinion and do not care if anybody agrees with me.

I am not part of any perceived "argument." I do not even understand the collective "we" (Do "we" think that the scene of Joel and Ellie resting...) which sort of indicates that everybody has to agree with regard to perceptions. 

All the replies to my opinion sort of are perceived by me as typed by "shadow boxers."

8 minutes ago, Superb Owl said:

But I don't understand why somebody so sguigged out as what they perceive as an inappropriate man/child

relationship is still watching the show.

(This was asked previously by another poster, so if it's been answered already, my apologies). 

Not that I have to accept a challenge which seems subtly confrontational and provide a reply and become defensive but: I like the sets, the scenery, the cinematography, the way some scenes appear to be watercolor paintings, the geographical journey, the stark vast emptiness in some panoramas, the sense of such finality.... and more.

ETA: the "more" being the episode with Bill and Frank. I am trans (female to male) and still like men so I am a trans gay male and their story touched my heart. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by LoveLeigh

[paigow]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

The commune is in Jackson, Wyoming.  Eastern Colorado University doesn't exist, but since they went down I-25 the closest real world equivalent is Colorado State University (which has a ram as its mascot). 

E.C.U. is near Boulder, CO. Joel & Ellie need to traverse essentially the entire state via I-70 before hitting the UT border...

[BasilSeal]

1 hour ago, LoveLeigh said:

I am not presenting an "argument." I do not view this as a debate. I stated my personal opinion and I am not trying to convince others to internalize my opinion, and I do not care if anybody agrees with me. 

I am fine with your conclusions about me (which may or may not be correct) based on my personal opinion about Joel and Ellie's relationship.

"i'm not arguing" says person repeatedly returning to the forum to  defend their opinion.