S01.E05: Time of the Monkey

[Quilt Fairy]

On 2/4/2023 at 7:35 AM, Haleth said:

I chuckled about the Fletchers watching their Scandinavian crime shows.

"See if there's a Skarsgard in there."

"There's always a Skarsgard in there." 

Later cut to credits with "Starring Wolfen Skarsgard".  

[ItCouldBeWorse]

23 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Was Betty staff, or just a resident who likes to try to run things and tell people what to do? I assumed she was the latter because of her age.

She was just a nosy resident who helped organize the zoo trip, not an employee.

18 hours ago, akg said:

Based on the fact that Joyce and Irene had spent a good chunk of their lives in prison and therefore wouldn't have any savings, I'm thinking the retirement community was on the cheap end (regardless of how nice it looked) and might have been willing to pay Charlie under the table.

I thought it looked like a very nice retirement community with up-to-date tech and separate cottages.

I assumed that one of the women had family money that she used to pay for both of them.

Also, if Irene and Joyce were (presumably) in their 20's when they were arrested, were incarcerated for 30 years, and are in their 80's now, they've probably been out of jail for 25 years. They wouldn't have been very employable. Irene might have qualified for social security disability payments but even upon reaching retirement age, Joyce's SS payments would have been peanuts. Without another source of income, they would have been in very bad shape financially for many years. And it totally makes sense that a rich college girl would have decided to become an anarchist.

[shapeshifter]

42 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

She was just a nosy resident who helped organize the zoo trip, not an employee.

I thought it looked like a very nice retirement community with up-to-date tech and separate cottages.

I assumed that one of the women had family money that she used to pay for both of them.

Also, if Irene and Joyce were (presumably) in their 20's when they were arrested, were incarcerated for 30 years, and are in their 80's now, they've probably been out of jail for 25 years. They wouldn't have been very employable. Irene might have qualified for social security disability payments but even upon reaching retirement age, Joyce's SS payments would have been peanuts. Without another source of income, they would have been in very bad shape financially for many years. And it totally makes sense that a rich college girl would have decided to become an anarchist.

Given all of the above in this👆 post, I'm going to invent my own explanation that Irene somehow managed to get a lawsuit settlement for her disability caused by being shot during the arrest.

Or maybe Irene and/or Joyce became adept while in prison at researching social programs and maximizing benefits (including for disability) way beyond what would typically have been awarded.

Or it's just part of the impossible situations allowed for comedy (thinking again of Wylie Coyote and Road Runner).

[Ohiopirate02]

5 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

She was just a nosy resident who helped organize the zoo trip, not an employee.

I thought it looked like a very nice retirement community with up-to-date tech and separate cottages.

I assumed that one of the women had family money that she used to pay for both of them.

Also, if Irene and Joyce were (presumably) in their 20's when they were arrested, were incarcerated for 30 years, and are in their 80's now, they've probably been out of jail for 25 years. They wouldn't have been very employable. Irene might have qualified for social security disability payments but even upon reaching retirement age, Joyce's SS payments would have been peanuts. Without another source of income, they would have been in very bad shape financially for many years. And it totally makes sense that a rich college girl would have decided to become an anarchist.

I can buy Irene being a rich college girl turned anarchist, and also her being the brains behind the whole Model UN plot.  There was something about Judith Light's line reading that made me think it.  She hated those teenagers in a way that can only be because she was one of them.  

Edited February 6, 2023 by Ohiopirate02

[buckboard]

This show keeps getting compared to Columbo, but I see many other shows, too.  We have The Fugitive, where the protagonist is on the run, being chased and working at a series of low paying jobs to avoid detection.  Then, like Jessica Fletcher, murders seem to follow Charlie wherever she goes, then to be solved by her amateur detecting.

As for the ridicuous arm strength that would have been necessary for Judith Light to climb the trellis, you just need to have a "willing suspension of disbelief" and enjoy the storyline.

[Paloma]

5 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

And it totally makes sense that a rich college girl would have decided to become an anarchist.

The most famous example may be Bernardine Dohrn, a leader of the militant Weather Underground who was on the FBI's Most Wanted List. She grew up in an upper-middle-class suburb and was a cheerleader and editor of the school newspaper. (I was going to say the most famous example was Patty Hearst, but since she was kidnapped before she became part of the Symbionese Liberation Army, I don't think you can say she "decided" to become an anarchist.) Also, two of my roommates in college in Washington DC in the late 60s-early 70s got involved in the SDS; they were from upper-middle-class or wealthy suburbs in NJ and NY. Interestingly, like the characters Joyce and Irene, part of the reason they were drawn to the SDS was because of their boyfriends. And both of those boyfriends came from wealthy families (though I don't know if the character Gabriel was supposed to be from a wealthy family.)

[ItCouldBeWorse]

4 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I can buy Joyce being a rich college girl turned anarchist, and also her being the brains behind the whole Model UN plot.  There was something about Judith Light's line reading that made me think it.  She hated those teenagers in a way that can only be because she was one of them.  

Judith Light played Irene, but I agree.  Although Joyce (S. Epatha Merkerson was pretty cold-blooded also.)

Edited February 6, 2023 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Ohiopirate02]

4 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Judith Light played Irene, but I agree.  Although Joyce (S. Epatha Merkerson was pretty cold-blooded also.)

Oops. I will edit my post.  Joyce felt like she came out of the womb ready to start some shit.  Like she was raised by people in the Civil Rights Movement, but who were less violent in their efforts, and Joyce decided that was too slow and too difficult.  

[Pike Ludwell]

4 hours ago, buckboard said:

This show keeps getting compared to Columbo, but I see many other shows, too.  We have The Fugitive, where the protagonist is on the run, being chased and working at a series of low paying jobs to avoid detection.  Then, like Jessica Fletcher, murders seem to follow Charlie wherever she goes, then to be solved by her amateur detecting.
 

Rockford Files too. That rundown trailer she was living in in episode 1 and her not placing too huge importance on money, is all very Rockford-like. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Pike Ludwell

[Paloma]

21 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

28 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Judith Light played Irene, but I agree.  Although Joyce (S. Epatha Merkerson was pretty cold-blooded also.)

Oops. I will edit my post.  Joyce felt like she came out of the womb ready to start some shit.  Like she was raised by people in the Civil Rights Movement, but who were less violent in their efforts, and Joyce decided that was too slow and too difficult.  

It was interesting that the flashbacks showed both Joyce and Irene into the movement at least partially for romantic reasons, both because they were in love with Gabriel and enjoyed the free love/sex of the times. They may have also cared about political change, but it probably wasn't their main motivation. The way those flashbacks were shot, the women did not come across as cold-blooded and violent but more as naive and idealistic (though of course we were viewing these scenes through their gauzy memories, so who knows what they were really like at the time). In any case, while I could certainly understand someone being bitter about being shot by the police and paralyzed as well as being in prison for decades, Joyce and Irene did not accept any responsibility for their situation and refused to believe they did anything wrong, even when they committed cold-blooded murder. Compare that with the real-life example of Kathy Boudin, who literally was raised by people in the Civil Rights movement and became a founding member of the Weather Underground. She and another woman were the only survivors of an explosion in a building where the Weathermen were building a bomb (that might have been the inspiration for this episode), and after becoming a fugitive she was involved in other bombings as well as a robbery that resulted in the deaths of police, before being arrested and sent to prison. But she became a model prisoner and expressed remorse for her actions and their consequences. She was considered by most people to be fully rehabilitated by the time she was released, and after her release made meaningful contributions to society in the area of justice--unlike Joyce and Irene, who were only concerned with revenge. 

[paigow]

3 hours ago, Pike Ludwell said:

Rockford Files too. That rundown trailer she was living in in episode 1 and her not placing too huge importance on money, is all very Rockford-like. 

Rockford got a lot of complaints about his high fee $200 / day plus expenses. He constantly reminded clients about the expenses part...

[Ohiopirate02]

15 hours ago, Paloma said:

It was interesting that the flashbacks showed both Joyce and Irene into the movement at least partially for romantic reasons, both because they were in love with Gabriel and enjoyed the free love/sex of the times. They may have also cared about political change, but it probably wasn't their main motivation. The way those flashbacks were shot, the women did not come across as cold-blooded and violent but more as naive and idealistic (though of course we were viewing these scenes through their gauzy memories, so who knows what they were really like at the time). In any case, while I could certainly understand someone being bitter about being shot by the police and paralyzed as well as being in prison for decades, Joyce and Irene did not accept any responsibility for their situation and refused to believe they did anything wrong, even when they committed cold-blooded murder. Compare that with the real-life example of Kathy Boudin, who literally was raised by people in the Civil Rights movement and became a founding member of the Weather Underground. She and another woman were the only survivors of an explosion in a building where the Weathermen were building a bomb (that might have been the inspiration for this episode), and after becoming a fugitive she was involved in other bombings as well as a robbery that resulted in the deaths of police, before being arrested and sent to prison. But she became a model prisoner and expressed remorse for her actions and their consequences. She was considered by most people to be fully rehabilitated by the time she was released, and after her release made meaningful contributions to society in the area of justice--unlike Joyce and Irene, who were only concerned with revenge. 

That flashback was a highly sanitized version of the events that landed both Joyce and Irene in prison.  We get shots of flowers in buckets being made into bouquets by the ladies when Gabriel disappears right before the raid and the "hit list" is Nixon and his cronies.  Later flashbacks show the truth where they were building bombs in pressure cookers and the pigs they wanted dead were high school kids.  

[Pike Ludwell]

On 2/6/2023 at 8:47 PM, paigow said:

Rockford got a lot of complaints about his high fee $200 / day plus expenses. He constantly reminded clients about the expenses part...

He had to make a living, you know. His rates were in line with other PIs in LA. He usually didn't get paid though or at least a greatly reduced amount and in a few episodes just genuinely laughs it off at the end. (E.g., see the ending of "The Four Pound Brick" - Season 1, ep. 20) He knew some clients were unlikely to pay but would do it anyway.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Pike Ludwell

[Chaos Theory]

1x05 "Time of the Monkey" you watch two mean old ladies commit murder and when Charlie shows up and befriends them a “Glass Onion” peals away at their complicated and dangerous motives.   I really loved Joyce and Irene and how they did just start as two mean old ladies who Charlie bonded with because you can see her growing up to be just like them only to slowly discover that their stint in prison wasn’t for political activism but because they were actual criminals.    I also really liked the bracelet gag and how it circled around.  

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

only to slowly discover that their stint in prison wasn’t for political activism but because they were actual criminals.

Yes. And should've been for being sociopaths, or just plain mean.

 

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

 I also really liked the bracelet gag and how it circled around.  

Eventually I will likely rewatch, but for now, was that Ben's (Gabriel's) bracelet Charlie was still wearing, or . . . ?

[Milburn Stone]

On 2/2/2023 at 7:17 AM, shapeshifter said:

Best episode yet. 
The setup at the beginning was a bit tighter, but with S. Epatha Merkerson and Judith Light, it could've gone on indefinitely and still would've been awesome.

I agree! Something else great about it was that Charlie had a lot to do and was really knit into the story and the solution. Was disappointed by the previous episode ("Rest in Metal") because she had practically no involvement in it, and it contained no surprises; didn't love the one before that ("The Stall") because it stole so much from Columbo. But this episode was just a total delight. More like this, show!

[shapeshifter]

16 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

More like this, show!

Next episode is excellent too!

[Milburn Stone]

On 2/6/2023 at 3:31 PM, Paloma said:

two of my roommates in college in Washington DC in the late 60s-early 70s got involved in the SDS; they were from upper-middle-class or wealthy suburbs in NJ and NY...

You bring out how those of us "of a certain age" probably related to this episode in a manner different from younger viewers. I had a high-school friend who actually became a "Weatherman" and ended up on the FBI's 10 most wanted list! I recall he was involved in a bank robbery. As an older person he turned himself in and was treated mercifully (or maybe the statute of limitations was up, or he co-operated, or the prosecutor had other fish to fry?) so I'm not narc-ing on him or anything. 🙂 But I remember how it felt that "Bobby" (not his real name) could be doing such terrible things, and/or be involved with such terrible people.

In Charlie's responses, the episode also paralleled how we young people back then kind of thought of the radicals as heroes, until, you know, they actually started killing people. Her journey was our journey.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Milburn Stone

[Cotypubby]

On 2/2/2023 at 9:19 PM, Irlandesa said:

The only thing I had a tough time buying is that Gabriel would need to go into witness protection after he testified.  They never mentioned that there were others who didn't go to jail or that Joyce & Irene had access to some kind of criminal underworld that had reach beyond the jail cells. 

When Joyce and Irene were telling Charlie what happened, they said the others were running away but Irene stayed which is why she was shot. We do see other people running out the back. I have no idea if everyone who ran was caught or not but it makes total sense for someone who was an informant against a terrorist group planning murder to need witness protection.

[kay1864]

Does it seem odd that at Ben’s funeral, they would have a picture of him from when he was Gabriel? You would think Witness Protection would keep his two lives separate. And that they would have a picture of ‘Ben’ from 10 or 20 years ago, not use one from 50 years ago.

[merylinkid]

On 2/6/2023 at 1:17 PM, buckboard said:

This show keeps getting compared to Columbo, but I see many other shows, too.  We have The Fugitive, where the protagonist is on the run, being chased and working at a series of low paying jobs to avoid detection.  Then, like Jessica Fletcher, murders seem to follow Charlie wherever she goes, then to be solved by her amateur detecting.

Also The Mentalist.  Not that Charlie is a "reformed" con man but that she notices all the little things.   She has a built in BS meter which is actually probably all the little "tells" that people have when they are lying.   They coalesce in her subconscious and she just knows.   She couldn't tell you  how she knows, but she knows.    but then she notices other stuff too.    Like in the 2nd episode with the lottery tickets noticing the sequential serial numbers.   In this episode, she noticed how the heart rate looked at different times, then put that together with the time of the monkey show.    Again, most of this is subconscious.   She knows but can't explain why.  And it bugs her.   Until she can explain it.  

I am LOVING this show.   This episode especially.   Judith Light and S. Epatha Merkesron playing evil old biddies was delightful.   They had it down PERFECT.   

[Ms Blue Jay]

There's also "Lie to Me".  Tim Roth's whole thing in that show was knowing when people are lying.

[DearEvette]

Yeah, this was it!  This was my favorite episode so far.

First, the casting was stellar.  Judith Light and S. Epatha Merkerson were thee best ride-or-die duo.  I loved their screen chemistry.  I want to see them on other things together.   Also the casting of their younger selves was spot on.  I thought the young Irene looked a lot like Judith Light. And, yeah even the actor who played the younger Gabriel looked like the older actor around the eyes. And then there was Luca who was fantastic.

Second, I loved the way this one unfolded and moved me along the story.  I was so into Irene and Joyce. I was 100% Charlie in this one.  I LOVED them and their 'Fuck all of y'all' vibe and their story.  And I was not so chuffed about them killing BenGabe.  He set them up.  Unlike the other stories where I liked the the victim and was so bummed they were killed, I was very meh on BenGabe.  But then we found out about their plan to bomb  the "UN for Babies or something" and their utter lack of remorse about it.  So  they morphed into full on villains for me.  And unlike the other episodes where I wanted justice for the slain, I just wanted Charlie to get these two motherfuckers.  LOL

Third, there were some really clever visuals in places.  A couple that stand out is of course the shot that @SnazzyDaisy posted earlier in the thread of Irene on the clinging vine and blending in.  But also when they were telling their story and we see the flashbacks, we realize that the visual of their flashback was a combo of them telling their story and Charlie imagining what it must have been like.  In the first flashback when they are telling what went down during the raid on the warehouse she was envisioning them sorting flowers.  But after she confronts them and realizes they were planning to bomb kids, the second flashback of the same scene is of them actually making the bombs -- no flowers in sight.

And finally, it was pretty damned funny.  The whole phone call between Charlie and Luca with Gino The Bull chiming in.  I loved that entire bit.  Also:

Luca: “I need something hard and firm if I am going to ride this one”
Pervy Pete (walking by and hearing the convo): “Now you’re speaking my language”

And the Fletchers.  LOL.

RIP Betty, you ol' busybody.

And kudos to that last scene of them fighting.  It was brutal and well choreographed.  And for someone who can;t walk, Irene sure can move!

Great episode!

[sugarbaker design]

On 2/3/2023 at 9:12 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

And then the show gives us the utterly hilarious "dick like a firehose"

Fire hydrant!  Girth is king.

[WritinMan]

Heh.

"Sugar Uncle."

[Hanahope]

I can accept Judith Lifht climbing the trellis.  She is very slim and as a paraplegic, has almost no leg mass and a lot of upper body strength.  

[BriCheese]

Thanks for the information !

[EtheltoTillie]

On 2/11/2023 at 8:15 AM, Milburn Stone said:

I agree! Something else great about it was that Charlie had a lot to do and was really knit into the

I see what you did there. 

[EtheltoTillie]

On 2/4/2023 at 6:28 PM, shapeshifter said:

Perhaps because of all the discussion in the media and in the previous episode's thread about how Poker Face is a version of Columbo, today I watched the Columbo episode "Étude in Black,"  which similarly had a bounty of name actors, including John Cassavetes as both the lead guest star and the "uncredited" director, as well as Blythe Danner and Myrna Loy (imdb.com/title/tt0068398), and, as with Natasha Lyonne here, Peter Faulk was a notable actor himself. 

 

Per Wikipedia, Natasha credits Peter Falk as one of her influences, along with some other New York-y male actors. In this episode she definitely channeled PF in some of her gestures and line readings.