S01.E01: At Close Range

[Artsda]

Quote

Following a new generation of Duttons; Jacob quashes a dispute between cattle ranchers and sheep herders; Cara informs Liz of the sacrifices of marrying into the Dutton family; another Dutton finds himself far from home.

[Genus]

Can't say I was blown away by this episode,  hopefully it's gets better. 

Why has Helen Mirrens got an Irish accent, but Harrison Ford doesn't? 

Thought the ranch looked a little too Yellowstone, surely in the time they have been in Montana, they wouldn't of built the ranch as it is in the modern day? 

[Artsda]

The dining room looked like the same set, just smaller table/decor. It does look too early to have the same set as present day.

I was surprised to hear Elsa's narration, good move to tie in 1883 with that. 

I was a tad confused with the Africa scenes at the start, but by the end it all tied together. Sad to see James and Margaret both passed so soon after their making roots.

[circumvent]

Very underwhelming. I will stick to it to watch the performances - Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren - but the first episode was weak as a story. Are we supposed to buy into the residential school where the girls did not have their hair cut? Or that a lion attacks humans like that? Or that leopards hunt in pairs? Or that, if they did, the second one would not simply run away as fast as it could?

I don't understand all the ado about Taylor Sheridan. To me, he is great at finding beautiful landscapes to film (assuming that's him doing that) but as a storyteller, he is just another one among many. The difference is that he seems to have a lot of clout and power.

[Haleth]

I liked it.  Just savoring the talent of Helen Mirren and Harrison Ford was a lovely way to spend a Sunday evening.  I am a little confused about how they all are related to the Duttons of 1883.  Elsa said Harrison Ford was her father's brother who came to help her mother after her father died?  Elsa's little brother was named John, right?  Are Jack and Spencer his sons?

The scenes with the Native American girls was horrifying.

[circumvent]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

I liked it.  Just savoring the talent of Helen Mirren and Harrison Ford was a lovely way to spend a Sunday evening.  I am a little confused about how they all are related to the Duttons of 1883.  Elsa said Harrison Ford was her father's brother who came to help her mother after her father died?  Elsa's little brother was named John, right?  Are Jack and Spencer his sons?

The scenes with the Native American girls was horrifying.

Harrison Ford is Elsa's uncle and she had two brothers. John, and then the baby who was born on the road, I guess (?). I think Spencer is the baby brother and Jack is John's son. Jack is Kevin Costner's grandfather in Yellowstone. Since Elsa said only one child (herself, and her two brothers) lived to see their children grow, I believe Spencer was killed in Africa. Which makes me wonder why have that whole Africa thing in the first place. 

[rcc]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

I liked it.  Just savoring the talent of Helen Mirren and Harrison Ford was a lovely way to spend a Sunday evening.  I am a little confused about how they all are related to the Duttons of 1883.  Elsa said Harrison Ford was her father's brother who came to help her mother after her father died?  Elsa's little brother was named John, right?  Are Jack and Spencer his sons?

The scenes with the Native American girls was horrifying.

Yes horrifying and shameful. I went to Catholic school and there were issues but nothing like that.

[circumvent]

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

The scenes with the Native American girls was horrifying.

And that's only an interpretation of what happened to indigenous children and youth that is fit for TV.  One only needs to check recent events to see that it was much worse. Cultural genocide is the only name we can call that

[ChicksDigScars]

6 hours ago, Haleth said:

I liked it.  Just savoring the talent of Helen Mirren and Harrison Ford was a lovely way to spend a Sunday evening.  I am a little confused about how they all are related to the Duttons of 1883.  Elsa said Harrison Ford was her father's brother who came to help her mother after her father died?  Elsa's little brother was named John, right?  Are Jack and Spencer his sons?

The scenes with the Native American girls was horrifying.

I just kept consulting the family tree that was posted online. "Okay, so Harrison Ford is Kevin Costner's great, great UNCLE, and Tim McGraw is his great, great, grandfather?"

Quote

I went to Catholic school and there were issues but nothing like that.

My grandmother told me stories about being beaten on the back of the hand with a ruler by the nuns every time she picked up her pencil with her left hand. They beat the lefty out of students and forced them to become right handed. As a result, my grandmother wrote right handed but did everything else lefty (bowling, golfing, eating with utensils). My grandmother was born in 1918, so the time line kind of matches up. I assume that this being portrayed as a school for indigenous children, that they got much worse than my Italian-American, daughter of immigrants, grandmother of the same era in the Bronx. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by ChicksDigScars

[rcc]

55 minutes ago, ChicksDigScars said:

I just kept consulting the family tree that was posted online. "Okay, so Harrison Ford is Kevin Costner's great, great UNCLE, and Tim McGraw is his great, great, grandfather?"

My grandmother told me stories about being beaten on the back of the hand with a ruler by the nuns every time she picked up her pencil with her left hand. They beat the lefty out of students and forced them to become right handed. As a result, my grandmother wrote right handed but did everything else lefty (bowling, golfing, eating with utensils). My grandmother was born in 1918, so the time line kind of matches up. I assume that this being portrayed as a school for indigenous children, that they got much worse than my Italian-American, daughter of immigrants, grandmother of the same era in the Bronx. 

Yes I remember that happened. The girls were hit on their open hand, the boys on the knuckles. I was luckily right handed. Taylor probably knows about all this abuse whether through research or his relatives. Native Americans apparently got it worse.

[Crashcourse]

17 minutes ago, rcc said:

Yes I remember that happened. The girls were hit on their open hand, the boys on the knuckles. I was luckily right handed. Taylor probably knows about all this abuse whether through research or his relatives. Native Americans apparently got it worse.

I remember being whacked on the hand for being a lefty.  I was ambidextrous, so I could have easily switched to being right-handed, but I revolted and remained left-handed, so the teachers just gave up. 🤷‍♀️

I'm still a lefty. 😅

[circumvent]

1 hour ago, rcc said:

Taylor probably knows about all this abuse whether through research or his relatives

I wasn't aware that he has indigenous roots. If so, he could do a better job at educating, as he says he is doing. But one doesn't need to do much research. The facts are all in the open, especially now. The whitewashing of history in this continent is absurd and pathetic. 

[rcc]

13 minutes ago, circumvent said:

I wasn't aware that he has indigenous roots. If so, he could do a better job at educating, as he says he is doing. But one doesn't need to do much research. The facts are all in the open, especially now. The whitewashing of history in this continent is absurd and pathetic. 

Looked up Taylor's wiki page. Born in Texas, lived on a ranch, and raises horses. Not Native American. That is not to say relatives or friends married or heard stories. His shows are very violent. But I believe there is truth there in the 1923 storyline.

[circumvent]

Pet peeve: timeline, continuity

The story we were told is that Elsa's mother called for Jacob after James died, about 10 years after they settled in Montana. Jacob arrived a year later, the woman was dead, the two boys almost starving. But by that time, John would have been about 17 and Spencer 10 or 11. Kids at that age, in that place, would know how to hunt, how to gather food for the winter, how to protect themselves. Besides, if I remember correctly, in one of the last episodes of 1883 the family seems to have a very good relationship with the natives in the area. The two boys would be able to ask for help. Unless, of course, they did what most white colonizers did, which is abuse and steal from the native community and claim the land as theirs, therefore alienating the people who could help them. But not even that makes sense. If they were so isolated and made enemies, the more numerous indigenous peoples would simply decimate them. 

The whole plot is a big whole, a lazy and rushed explanation for why Jacob had to come and start the "empire"

[Snazzy Daisy]

Is Elsa Dutton going to be a narrator throughout the whole 1923? Not a fan of this character. 😣

[RedDelicious]

23 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

I just kept consulting the family tree that was posted online. "Okay, so Harrison Ford is Kevin Costner's great, great UNCLE, and Tim McGraw is his great, great, grandfather?"

Yes you are correct.

James (McGraw) - John Sr. (Dale) - Jack (Mann) - John Jr. (TBA) - John III (Costner)

On another note, I really don't want Spencer to have been killed by the leopard. I liked his character, what little we saw of him.

[mojoween]

It will be interesting to see what became of Jack (? right, that’s the guy who was getting married?) getting shot at by the sheep herder.

I adore Jerome Flynn.  But I don’t know if that’s his normal voice, or if he was using an accent, because every time he spoke all I heard was Scrooge McDuck.

[Thalia]

I think (hope) Spencer will survive the leopard attack.  The actor -- as an aside, hubba hubba -- is listed third in the credits, which means Spencer's story should be a major part of the series.  Of course, they could tell his earlier story via flashbacks.  But I'm guessing he will have  a tragic love story with the woman in the credits who wasn't in the first episode. 

I liked the pilot, and for some reason the slow pacing didn't bother me as much as it does in Yellowstone.  Sometimes an episode of the Mother Ship will end, and I'll try in vain to figure out why it took an hour to tell that story.  But here it seemed to go with the lushness of the scenery and the haunting theme song, which was beautiful.  The cinematography in this show is gorgeous, particularly the Spencer scenes, which had a real "Out of Africa" vibe.  

 

[LadyIrony]

On 12/21/2022 at 3:56 AM, SnazzyDaisy said:

Is Elsa Dutton going to be a narrator throughout the whole 1923? Not a fan of this character. 😣

Yeah I cringed as soon as I heard her whimsical try hard poet voice. 

****

So was this depressing enough or what?

Who would have guessed the groom to be would be shot after going out for the cattle when his fiance was dead set against it?!  

Watching the Indiana Jones styled son killing Germans in WW1 and the shooting a lion and then a jaguar. Ho hum. It was funny to watch the woman get mauled by the jaguar though. 

Not sure what the point of the nun and Catholic school/orphanage thing was for. I guess we might find out but basing it off other Taylor Sheridan shows we may never see it again. I think the Priest just wanted the nun and the girl to leave him alone in future. 

So far weak on story and characters but it all looks pretty. 

[circumvent]

8 hours ago, LadyIrony said:

the shooting a lion and then a jaguar.

Leopard. There are no jaguars in Africa

8 hours ago, LadyIrony said:

Not sure what the point of the nun and Catholic school/orphanage thing was for.

A much more interesting story and the point, I think, is to link the story of some of the girls and indigenous peoples to the Yellowstone story of the Native people. Maybe that girl was an ancestor of the woman in Yellowstone, the character that marries into the Dutton family

[Haleth]

2 hours ago, circumvent said:

Maybe that girl was an ancestor of the woman in Yellowstone, the character that marries into the Dutton family

Someone said she’s a Rainwater. 

[circumvent]

11 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Someone said she’s a Rainwater. 

What is a Rainwater? 

[Thalia]

On 12/23/2022 at 6:35 AM, circumvent said:

What is a Rainwater? 

Thomas Rainwater (played by Gil Birmingham) is the chief of the Broken Rock Reservation.  

[LJones41]

On 12/19/2022 at 12:42 PM, circumvent said:

I wasn't aware that he has indigenous roots. If so, he could do a better job at educating, as he says he is doing. But one doesn't need to do much research. The facts are all in the open, especially now. The whitewashing of history in this continent is absurd and pathetic. 

 

The 2005 miniseries, "Into the West", had focused on this subject in one episode.  Only that series had focused on Richard Henry Pratt's Carlisle Indian Industrial School in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.  The school had lasted between 1879 and 1918.

 

When this episode began, I thought I was watching James Badge Dale.  It turns out, I was watching Brandon Sklenar, who portrays Badge Dale's younger brother.  That was a confusing moment.

[LoveLeigh]

On 12/19/2022 at 11:33 AM, circumvent said:

And that's only an interpretation of what happened to indigenous children and youth that is fit for TV.  One only needs to check recent events to see that it was much worse. Cultural genocide is the only name we can call that

Have you seen any documentaries or the film on the Irish laundries? Check out The Magdalene Sisters for some more horrifying history about the nuns in schools and other institutions. 

[voiceover]

Aw, shit.  Now I’m going to have to get Paramount+, because I want to see this to the end. 

First, and most important, I love Helen & Harrison together, and I love that they’re within 3 years of age IRL, and I love that they both look their ages & are yummy with it.

Love the “Nairobi” scene porn, though I thought it more reminiscent of the German film Nowhere in Africa  then of Out of Africa.  The plot there seemed to start off a bit Hemingwayesque (“The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber”), but then it took a turn.  Brandon Sklenar appears to be the Rip in this story, so he has my attention.

The grazing ish was a real problem in Montana & environs, and I was on Jacob’s side there.  Grass *was the be-all for the rangers.  There’s a Hepburn/Tracy film (Sea of Grass) that touches on the farmer/cowman divide; the sheepherders are a new twist to most of what I know about it.

I’m bored of Yellowstone but I think I’m all in here.

[blackwing]

On 12/19/2022 at 8:02 AM, circumvent said:

Harrison Ford is Elsa's uncle and she had two brothers. John, and then the baby who was born on the road, I guess (?). I think Spencer is the baby brother and Jack is John's son. Jack is Kevin Costner's grandfather in Yellowstone. Since Elsa said only one child (herself, and her two brothers) lived to see their children grow, I believe Spencer was killed in Africa. Which makes me wonder why have that whole Africa thing in the first place. 

 

On 12/20/2022 at 6:07 AM, circumvent said:

Pet peeve: timeline, continuity

The story we were told is that Elsa's mother called for Jacob after James died, about 10 years after they settled in Montana. Jacob arrived a year later, the woman was dead, the two boys almost starving. But by that time, John would have been about 17 and Spencer 10 or 11. Kids at that age, in that place, would know how to hunt, how to gather food for the winter, how to protect themselves. Besides, if I remember correctly, in one of the last episodes of 1883 the family seems to have a very good relationship with the natives in the area. The two boys would be able to ask for help. Unless, of course, they did what most white colonizers did, which is abuse and steal from the native community and claim the land as theirs, therefore alienating the people who could help them. But not even that makes sense. If they were so isolated and made enemies, the more numerous indigenous peoples would simply decimate them. 

The whole plot is a big whole, a lazy and rushed explanation for why Jacob had to come and start the "empire"

 

On 12/19/2022 at 12:11 PM, ChicksDigScars said:

I just kept consulting the family tree that was posted online. "Okay, so Harrison Ford is Kevin Costner's great, great UNCLE, and Tim McGraw is his great, great, grandfather?"

 

Are you sure this family tree is correct?  Because one of the first errors is that Claire is listed as the sister of Margaret.  She was Claire Dutton, I remember us wondering if she was James' sister or the wife of a presumably dead brother.  Then it was made clear she was his sister.

This raises another question I have, because on 1883 she made it seem like she had no choice but to follow him to Montana.  I believe the family originally came from Tennessee, then somehow James and Margaret and Elsa and Claire were in Texas.  Then Claire's husband died.  James and Margaret decided to set off for Montana, and Claire as a widow seemed to think she had no choice but to go with him.  Now we find out there was another brother, presumably about 10 year.s younger than James.  Why couldn't Claire have gone to him for assistance/support?

We saw a scene on Yellowstone set in 1893 with James getting shot and the two boys I thought about ages 12 and 8.  This doesn't seem to work with what we saw on 1883, I think John was about 6 then, and the John on the 1893 scene seemed much younger than 16.  

Now we learn that Spencer doesn't make it, so I agree, what's the point of following his storyline in 1923 in Africa?  He's far away from his family and he doesn't figure into the John Dutton lineage.

This family tree https://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/the-dutton-family-tree-from-1883-1923-and-yellowstone-explained/ disagrees with the one posted above.  It states that Jack and John Jr. are both the sons of of John Sr. and that Kevin Costner John is John III and the son of John Jr.

[BlueHawk]

On 12/18/2022 at 9:43 AM, Genus said:

Can't say I was blown away by this episode,  hopefully it's gets better. 

Why has Helen Mirrens got an Irish accent, but Harrison Ford doesn't? 

Thought the ranch looked a little too Yellowstone, surely in the time they have been in Montana, they wouldn't of built the ranch as it is in the modern day? 

Cara has an Irish accent because she is from Ireland-as in born and raised.  Jacob doesn't because he's from America- as in born and raised. Amazingly enough they somehow met and married. Boggles the imagination, eh? 😉😁Helen Mirren gave an interview (apologies for my inability to provide the link) where she said the accent was of paramount importance to her due to her vision of the characters backstory. Her acting process entails embracing the character as a person, creating in her imagination the facets of personality that the persons life would have given them She stated that she knew the "Irishness" that was deep center for Cara and wanted to especially get the accent correctly for the part of Ireland Cara was from.

No stretch that the ranch looks like its current iteration. My family home was built in 1893 & while there have been alterations and additions over the years its completely recognizable as the original structure.  I've seen a picture or 2 showing the Dutton main lodge in stages of construction & figured it would be shown being built over the years in flashbacks.  The barn and bunkhouse are a different style than is shown in current times so I imagine that over the years they needed to be rebuilt for some reason. Jacob and Cara have been there at least 30 years- time enough to get the house built.

😊

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by BlueHawk
It's Cara- not- Cora

[Cool Breeze]

On 12/26/2022 at 1:12 PM, blackwing said:

This family tree https://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/the-dutton-family-tree-from-1883-1923-and-yellowstone-explained/ disagrees with the one posted above.  It states that Jack and John Jr. are both the sons of of John Sr. and that Kevin Costner John is John III and the son of John Jr.

Ugh.  "Jack" is a nickname.  Like "Tripp" or "Trey" or "Chip".  

And it's a nickname for "John".  So, they gave two kids the same name?!  No way that would've happened, especially a century ago in much more formal times.

[oompa]

18 hours ago, Cool Breeze said:

Ugh.  "Jack" is a nickname.  Like "Tripp" or "Trey" or "Chip".  

And it's a nickname for "John".  So, they gave two kids the same name?!  No way that would've happened, especially a century ago in much more formal times.

My grandfather, who I think was born in 1901, was named Henry. His brother was also named Henry and neither of them had a middle name. It was a tradition to name the children after certain family members on the father's and mother's side and they just so happened to both be named Henry.

It became an issue in the draft, and my grandfather's brother had to change his name to Harry.

[blackwing]

18 hours ago, Cool Breeze said:

Ugh.  "Jack" is a nickname.  Like "Tripp" or "Trey" or "Chip".  

And it's a nickname for "John".  So, they gave two kids the same name?!  No way that would've happened, especially a century ago in much more formal times.

I think this particular version of the family tree, in which Jack and John II are both the sons of John Sr, isn't accurate.  It seems that whoever created that graphic was speculating, and wrongly.

[Cool Breeze]

5 hours ago, oompa said:

My grandfather, who I think was born in 1901, was named Henry. His brother was also named Henry and neither of them had a middle name. It was a tradition to name the children after certain family members on the father's and mother's side and they just so happened to both be named Henry.

It became an issue in the draft, and my grandfather's brother had to change his name to Harry.

Interesting.  Also, "Harry" is a nickname for "Henry".  Which, apparently, even Prince Harry didn't know when he was asked about his birth name, so go figure.

[buttersister]

Quote

  "Jack" is a nickname.  Like "Tripp" or "Trey" or "Chip".  

Not always.
Niece of Jack. Name on birth certificate.

[pasdetrois]

On 12/22/2022 at 7:53 PM, LadyIrony said:

Not sure what the point of the nun and Catholic school/orphanage thing was for.

The horrific history of Indian boarding schools has been in the news the past several years. At one point 80% of Native American children in the US were forced into these schools, which were sanctioned and funded by the US government and managed mostly by Catholic clergy. They were often used as child labor and suffered systemic abuse and death. Today Native Americans still suffer from this generational trauma; a few boarding schools were still operational in the 1970s. The US Bureau of Indian Affairs began documenting boarding school deaths, and as of last year they had confirmed (through DNA) approximately 500 children's deaths. That's just a start.

So I think the producers are incorporating a boarding school storyline to give a nod to past reality. And presumably to tie a boarding school child to the Dutton descendants.

Edited February 18, 2023 by pasdetrois

[LadyIrony]

On 2/19/2023 at 1:27 AM, pasdetrois said:

The horrific history of Indian boarding schools has been in the news the past several years. At one point 80% of Native American children in the US were forced into these schools, which were sanctioned and funded by the US government and managed mostly by Catholic clergy. They were often used as child labor and suffered systemic abuse and death. Today Native Americans still suffer from this generational trauma; a few boarding schools were still operational in the 1970s. The US Bureau of Indian Affairs began documenting boarding school deaths, and as of last year they had confirmed (through DNA) approximately 500 children's deaths. That's just a start.

So I think the producers are incorporating a boarding school storyline to give a nod to past reality. And presumably to tie a boarding school child to the Dutton descendants.

Sure but as we are nearly at the end of the season the story hasn't progressed much on any level let alone the NA story line. So far it has been possibly a rather far fetched story in regards to this Indian woman fighting against the Nuns and Priests and killing them. I would suspect she would have been pulled in line one way or another before she had the opportunity to kill anyone. 

But it is from the creator of Yellowstone so meh.

[millennium]

How is Elsa narrating from the grave?   Not to nitpick, but she's dead.   I suppose it explains her lifeless delivery.  Still ...

The flirty British woman getting eaten by the leopard was a nice subversion of expectations.   Up to that point it was feeling a bit like "The Short, Happy Life of Francis Macomber."

[sashabear21]

I started watching this on a 10 hour plane ride today and almost shut it off when I realized they were going to have Elsa narrate. Did no one give her a dialogue coach?? I have never heard Antietam pronounced as “Aunt-Tay-Tum and I grew up in the south.
 

Curious to see how the Native American school ties in. Sometimes with Sheridan he just has a story he wants to tell whether it ties to the main narrative or not. 

[emilicika]

I'm curious, guys, how do you feel and how does the inclusion of the Native American school storyline relate to the central narrative of the film? I mean does it serve to strengthen the thematic connections or does it feel like a tangential addition?