Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"

[sharky]

But this was a good episode for them. They are just mad that Emma dared to tell the man she's with she loves him and Regina will most likely not have time to help save Emma next season.

And we also saw Regina and Robin looking lovey dovey together so it was a double whammy for them. But again, how many times do SQ fans have to be told that their ship isn't going to be canon?

[RedKeep]

But this was a good episode for them. They are just mad that Emma dared to tell the man she's with she loves him and Regina will most likely not have time to help save Emma next season.

I don't know, considering how they played this, with Emma specifically taking Regina's place as the person targeted by the evil smoke monster 2.0 thing, I don't doubt they're going to have Regina play a major role in wanting to save Emma next season. But yes, I'd guess they're upset every bit of interaction R & E had in the finale ultimately came down to talk about characters and relationships they hate.

 

I just don't understand what they expect anymore. Whether one likes them or not, these relationships are canon and they're not going anywhere. I saw some tweet Adam how much they want him to say once and for all SQ is not happening and they have no interest in queer representation to put them out of their misery so they can stop watching. Apart from the pretty offensive thought that SQ equals all interest in queer representation, I'm honestly confused because it feels like groundhog day and they keep saying these things every season. The writers told them it's not happening, but the show itself tells them it's not happening too.

 

But I think some still believe(d) they could bully the writers into pandering to them. Complain loud enough, try to get actors fired because you think the characters they play stand in the way your ship long enough, and you'll get your way. I have a lot of issues with the writers on this show, but I'm glad they're not validating that sort of mindset at least.

[Mari]

So were the journalists trolling us or trolling SQ shippers when they promised the Greatest SQ Episode EVAH?

I think it would depend on what you expect to happen in canon for SQ.  Emma and Regina had an adventure, and scenes together where they were emotionally vulnerable.  They did their best to help and protect each other, and were fairly friendly and snarky.

 

Their relationship didn't cross over into full-blown romance with each other, but if you're someone who sees UST there, and romanticizes the relationship, there was meat for you.

 

It's the shippers that expect--or try to demand--that Hook and Hood end up in a dumpster somewhere while Emma and Regina start housekeeping and planning their next child that are going to feel cheated.

[Chaos Theory]

And we also saw Regina and Robin looking lovey dovey together so it was a double whammy for them. But again, how many times do SQ fans have to be told that their ship isn't going to be canon?

I don't need or want it to be cannon. Personally I find Robin Hood borderline offensive and Hook plain boring but that is just me. Regina and Emma are and have always been at least entertaining. I do however accept that they will never be cannon. That is what fanfic is for.

[legaleagle53]

Maybe the SQ shippers should hire Isaac to write their fiction.  Oh, wait... .

[Mari]

I don't need or want it to be cannon. Personally I find Robin Hood borderline offensive and Hook plain boring but that is just me. Regina and Emma are and have always been at least entertaining. I do however accept that they will never be cannon. That is what fanfic is for.

Yeah.

 

Personally, while I have absolutely no interest in a Regina/Emma relationship, there are other shows that I have this attitude with.  On those, I enjoy the scenes the characters I ship are together, but don't expect to ever see a romantic relationship onscreen--and some, I'd pretty much prefer a romantic relationship stay off-screen.  If I want romantic on my noncanon shps, I switch to fanfic.  In some cases, I prefer the fanfic. 

 

For people with that attitude, this was definitely a good episode.  The interaction they had was interesting and meaningful. 

Edited May 11, 2015 by Mari

[Mathius]

In other words, Lily Sparks of Tv.com continues to be a moron, constantly accusing the writers of queerbaiting and that SQ would be oh so important and inspiring and by not doing it and sticking with "heteronormaty" they're condemning all young queer people to depression. She also claims CS and OQ were told in the finale whereas SQ was what was shown. I'm sorry, did she miss all the great acting JMO and Lana Parilla put into all their scenes with/about Hook and Hood, especially the former? I really fail to see how that isn't showing CS and OQ.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Mathius

[legaleagle53]

In other words, Lily Sparks of Tv.com continues to be a moron, constantly accusing the writers of queerbaiting and that SQ would be oh so important and inspiring and by not doing it and sticking with "heteronormaty" they're condemning all young queer people to depression. She also claims CS and OQ were told in the finale whereas SQ was what was shown. I'm sorry, did she miss all the great acting JMO and Lana Parilla put into all their scenes with/about Hook and Hood, especially the former? I really fail to see how that isn't showing CS and OQ.

 

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

[Serena]

I mean, I may agree that OQ was "told", since Henry and Emma kept telling Regina to go to Hood. But that's been the case since 303. But CS? Oh, girl. How can anyone watch the "muscle memory" scene (try watching it with no audio, even) or Emma's face after Hook "died" and say it was told?

Edited May 11, 2015 by Serena

[legaleagle53]

To say nothing of the fact that Jennifer acted the hell out of that scene.  And to think that four years ago, people thought that Jennifer couldn't act at all because Emma was so closed-off and wooden to start with!

[OnceUponAJen]

I knew JMO could act from House. Cameron was also closed off, but very driven yet vulnerable. She brought great things to that show. Her character could bring out things in House that noone else could.

[Mathius]

I mean, I may agree that OQ was "told", since Henry and Emma kept telling Regina to go to Hood.

Yeah but Regina very visibly had feelings of attraction that Lana showed, not to mention she's been visibly AND audibly pining for the guy all season long so I can't see how it's just a "tell" thing on her part. Robin has always been the doubtful one, both in how he's written and how Sean acts (he just can't pull off looks of romantic longing well, they come off looking silly.)

Edited May 11, 2015 by Mathius

[CatMack]

Why did I read Lily Sparks recap?  Worse, why did I read the comments?  I honestly don't see how we're watching the same show.  I really don't.  I respect people's right to a different opinion, and to ship whoever they want whether it's canon or not, but they literally seem to be watching a different show.  It's just bizarre.

[FurryFury]

It's a common strategy of slash shippers. Pay it no mind.

[Minneapple]

I've read the TV.com recaps of other shows and have enjoyed them (the Teen Wolf ones used to be really funny). This one, not so much. She basically ignores all of the Captain Swan moments that we were SHOWN (except for, naturally, the moment when Emma doesn't tell Hook that she loves him) and then says, welp, you didn't SHOW US Captain Swan!

 

Next season will be about Regina saving Emma, I presume. At what point is the show going to start talking about why the emotional reality of Emma and Regina is the one they’re focusing on? And at what point are they going to allow us to hope for their actual happy ending?

 

Well, Lily Sparks. the answer to both of your questions is NEVER. But, you know. Keep believing what you want to believe.

 

I've shipped a bunch of couples that I knew would never happen on the show. Enjoyed the fic, enjoyed the onscreen interactions. Sometimes headcanon and fic are more fun than the actual show anyway.

[mjgchick]

I've shipped couples I knew were never going to happen (Hello Jade and Tori) but I've never deluded myself into thinking that they'd happen in my wildest dreams and accepted it like a normal person. Hell I still tragically hope for Mulan and Aurora but I'm not going to lose any sleep over a fictional couple nor am I going to threatened the lives of real life people and wish for them to get fired.

I see some are ignoring the fact that Killian sacrificed his life for Henry and Emma as well and in fact his sacrifice meant so much more because he was someone who had no confidence. But whatever.

Edited May 12, 2015 by mjgchick

[Katherine]

While I think it's been pretty well-established that Adam and Eddy adore the character of Regina, I actually think their choice to write her as Saint Regina might have more to do with fan response than with their own personal preferences. Fans of Regina are very...vocal on social media (of course so are lots of other fans, but Regina's are the ones I notice the most). And as far as I can tell, the majority of them seem to want her to be/remain a 'hero', rather than reverting to her old villain self. I remember there was a lot of outrage after the season three finale, when it looked like she might go back to being a villain/hating Emma. I think Adam and Eddy might actually prefer writing Regina as evil (which explains the constant fairybacks) and her redemption is actually the result of them trying to appease fans. Maybe if it weren't for fan outcry, they would have held off longer on Regina's redemption story - saved it until closer to the end of the series, or at least done less flipflopping. I could be totally wrong, but it just seems like ever since Regina became a "hero", they haven't known what to do with her, and since they don't want to upset fans by undoing her supposed "character growth", we end up with stupid plotlines like the Zelena pregnancy.

I think a lot of it also has to do with fans complaining about Regina not getting enough screentime. Many fans were upset that seasons 3A and 4A didn't have more Regina, so then the writers overcompensated in 3B and 4B. I think things like Regina having white magic and being the savior and the best mom ever might have more to do with the fandom than with Eddy and Adam's own desires. This is similar to the Swan Queen friendship. It had so much screentime this season, but I think a lot of that was because of pressure from the fans. Honestly--and this may be an unpopular opinion--I always had the impression that Captain Swan was Eddy and Adam's favorite ship. I'm questioning this a bit now since CS had such little focus in season four, but I suspect the lack of screentime may have had more to do with fans on Twitter complaining about "Once Upon a Hook" and saying that Emma isn't strong/independent anymore now that she's with "Captain Rapist", and less to do with Adam and Eddy finding established couples boring. I honestly think they're scared of their own fans and they're trying to make all ships happy.

I have a feeling that a lot of the drop in quality over the years is related to Adam and Eddy taking fan responses too greatly to heart (and also their preference for action over character moments, but that's a conversation for another thread). I don't understand it, but Regina seems to be an insanely popular character, and I think a lot of the writers' problems come from being too busy catering to her fans instead of planning a coherent story. I don't think the problem is entirely due to their own "Regina permaboner". Season one is arguably the best season, and I suspect a lot of that is because they had most of it mapped out before they let fans cloud their judgement.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Katherine

[Camera One]

It sometimes feels like episodes are broken into pieces to appease the various fanbases.  In the 4B finale, we got a Regina-is-a-great-mom section, and then a CS section, and then an OQ section and then a Regina-saves-the-day section, and then a Rumbelle section.  It has become so bad that sometimes I wonder if individual lines are meant for certain shippers.  Like when Regina told Emma, "My happy ending is not with a man."  

[Dani-Ellie]

I think people are going to read into anything what they want to read into it. For instance, I didn't at all take Regina's line about her happy ending not being with a man to mean it was with a woman, never mind with Emma herself. I just took it to mean that, since she had earlier told Henry she didn't believe people like her could get happy endings, she didn't consider love figuring into her happy ending at all. If people want to see subtext in the interaction between two characters, they're going to see it, regardless of whether the lines/interactions are intended to be taken that way.

[Katherine]

It has become so bad that sometimes I wonder if individual lines are meant for certain shippers.  Like when Regina told Emma, "My happy ending is not with a man."

Exactly. That line is the perfect example. Several fans have been complaining on Twitter that Regina and Emma's happy endings shouldn't be dependent on men, and Adam and Eddy clearly took that criticism to heart. Sometimes this kind of thing actually makes the show better, and other times not so much.

Also, Rumbelle fans have been giving Adam a really hard time ever since the 4A finale. My guess is that Adam and Eddy's preference would be for Rumple to end up a villain or dead (or both), but the Rumbelle fans are so vocal that they just won't let that ship die.

[HoodlumSheep]

Isn't Rumple=Evil also what Carlyle prefers as well? And I thought Rumbelle fans have been giving A&E flack since 3a or 3b.

[Katherine]

 

Isn't Rumple=Evil also what Carlyle prefers as well? And I thought Rumbelle fans have been giving A&E flack since 3a or 3b.

Many of them were upset about Rumbelle not having enough screen time in seasons 2 and 3, but I think Rumple turning (more) evil and Belle finally kicking him out of town at the end of 4A caused a lot more outrage.

 

I'm not saying that I think Adam and Eddy are intentionally baiting Swan Queen shippers. But I do think the Regina/Emma friendship is a result of them trying to make fans happy. Maybe the friendship would have happened anyway, since Regina and Emma have definitely had a grudging respect thing going since season two, but I don't think it would have had nearly as much screen time if not for pressure from the fans.

 

I'm not trying to insult any section of the fandom. We all have our favorites and want them to have more screen time. I'm just saying that I think Adam and Eddy need thicker skin because catering to fans isn't always what's best for the show (though in certain cases it can lead to improvements, like killing off Greg and Tamara).

Edited May 12, 2015 by Katherine

[Souris]

I'm not saying that I think Adam and Eddy are intentionally baiting Swan Queen shippers. 

 

I'm saying it. They're writing things specifically to cater to SQ shippers or with SQ shippers in mind. If they don't intend for it to ever be canon, then that's intentionally baiting. Full stop.

[Katherine]

I'm saying it. They're writing things specifically to cater to SQ shippers or with SQ shippers in mind. If they don't intend for it to ever be canon, then that's intentionally baiting. Full stop.

I think the biggest baiting moments have come in Scott's episodes, but I guess they could have been on Adam and Eddy's orders. For the most part though I think it's pretty clear that Emma and Regina aren't going to happen in a romantic sense. If I were still a casual viewer and hadn't been following all the online stuff, I'm pretty sure I would have no clue that Swan Queen's even a thing.

[Mathius]

The queerbaiting is less in the show and more in the media. Adam and Eddy need to be more firm and brutally honest. They have to tell SQ shippers "it's not ever happening, stop hoping." Yes, this is harsh, especially when dealing with an alleged show about hope, but it HAS to be done at this point. Otherwise, they're just stringing the SQ shippers along and thus setting themselves up for the attacks and cries of "Betrayal!" when SQ inevitably doesn't happen.

Isn't Rumple=Evil also what Carlyle prefers as well?

It is, and it reflects in his performances in S1, S2, and 4A. He seemed less than enthusiastic in 4B, though, probably because his evil plan made little sense and his motivations were murky, plus just general role fatigue. Good thing S5 should be his last hurrah. Edited May 12, 2015 by Mathius

[Serena]

I think a lot of it also has to do with fans complaining about Regina not getting enough screentime. Many fans were upset that seasons 3A and 4A didn't have more Regina, so then the writers overcompensated in 3B and 4B. I think things like Regina having white magic and being the savior and the best mom ever might have more to do with the fandom than with Eddy and Adam's own desires. This is similar to the Swan Queen friendship. It had so much screentime this season, but I think a lot of that was because of pressure from the fans. Honestly--and this may be an unpopular opinion--I always had the impression that Captain Swan was Eddy and Adam's favorite ship. I'm questioning this a bit now since CS had such little focus in season four, but I suspect the lack of screentime may have had more to do with fans on Twitter complaining about "Once Upon a Hook" and saying that Emma isn't strong/independent anymore now that she's with "Captain Rapist", and less to do with Adam and Eddy finding established couples boring. I honestly think they're scared of their own fans and they're trying to make all ships happy.

I have a feeling that a lot of the drop in quality over the years is related to Adam and Eddy taking fan responses too greatly to heart (and also their preference for action over character moments, but that's a conversation for another thread). I don't understand it, but Regina seems to be an insanely popular character, and I think a lot of the writers' problems come from being too busy catering to her fans instead of planning a coherent story. I don't think the problem is entirely due to their own "Regina permaboner". Season one is arguably the best season, and I suspect a lot of that is because they had most of it mapped out before they let fans cloud their judgement.

I kinda agree. I mean, I don't 100% with Regina's redemption being all about the fan response, because A&E have been spouting the "Regina is such a huge victim" thing since the beginning (or almost. Clearly, the "she thought I was prettier" line means they hadn't yet thought of Regina losing Daniel when they wrote the Pilot. Considering they had been working on OUAT for 7 years before the Pilot, and they hadn't thought of the "Regina is a victim" part yet, it kinda explains why the Regina parts are the weakest: they're making them up as they go along, while for a lot of the other storylines they've been brewing for years). 

However, I do agree that A&E personally (not individual writers like Scott, of course) do love CS above other ships. Even in the finale, they were the ones with the great moments. They have been completely bored with OQ since the beginning and, unfortunately, with Snowing lately. They were excited by Rumbelle in S1, then the fan outcry forced them to make Belle a regular and they had to change all their plans to include her and lost interest. And SQ, for all they've been promoting their "friendship"... well, just compare it to the MM/Emma friendship in season 1 and S2A. They know how to write a supportive friendship when they want to. 

 

The queerbaiting is less in the show and more in the media. Adam and Eddy need to be more firm and brutally honest. They have to tell SQ shippers "it's not ever happening, stop hoping." Yes, this is harsh, especially when dealing with an alleged show about hope, but it HAS to be done at this point. Otherwise, they're just stringing the SQ shippers along and thus setting themselves up for the attacks and cries of "Betrayal!" when SQ inevitably doesn't happen.

They have done that. It was at the Comic Con post S2. Adam has also specifically stopped tweeting #havehope at various shippers (he used to tweet it to literally anyone who asked about a ship) because, I think, someone made him aware that giving impossible hope to slash shippers wasn't cool. SQers are just choosing to ignore it.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Serena

[Rumsy4]

They have done that. It was at the Comic Con post S2. Adam has also specifically stopped tweeting #havehope at various shippers (he used to tweet it to literally anyone who asked about a ship) because, I think, someone made him aware that giving impossible hope to slash shippers wasn't cool. SQers are just choosing to ignore it.

 

Agree. Besides, why go out of the way to antagonize a fanbase. Particularly one that is so belligerent. Keep them watching until the end. If they hate the show for not making SQ canon at that point, it won't matter. 

[Mari]

During the livechat, several of us were a little snarky about the Regina fan at the book-signing. It was yet another "Regina's awesome." scene. In the SQ recap and in some of the comments below, that scene was taken as a direct, probably intentional, insult to Regina fans. It seems that Isaac was too dismissive of the fan, and they thought it was similar to their treatment by the show's team

[Amerilla]

Isn't Rumple=Evil also what Carlyle prefers as well? And I thought Rumbelle fans have been giving A&E flack since 3a or 3b.

 

I'm sure it's like any job: we don't love all aspects of work equally. In general, Carlyle prefers darker stuff to romantic stuff, and that's been true throughout his career. 

 

But you can also see from the interviews and panels he's done over the last three years that he's put a great deal of thought  into the centrality of Belle in fleshing out Rumpel's character, allowing him to add those 'human' notes that make him more multi-dimensional than straight-up evil. He and EdR both play it as a true love match....which is why he went into full-on Take No Shit mode at Comic Con last year when Barbara Barnett asked the "abusive relationship" question. That is very clearly not how they see it.   
 

Also, Rumbelle fans have been giving Adam a really hard time ever since the 4A finale.

 

The problem for Rumbelle fans is that A&E and the writers and entertainment journos and the ABC promo monkeys tend to WAY over-hint and WAY over-promise to keep shippers watching, and then that fails to play out on-screen.

 

If, for example, you repeatedly say things like "we're going to see Belle being strong" or whatever it was, and that translates to "we're going to have Belle randomly shuffle into an almost dialog-free, practically scene-free relationship with a character 75% of the audience doesn't know or care about immediately after kicking the supposed love of her life out of town 'forever' so we can play heavy violins over 'I don't love Will,' in the finale scene," yes, shippers and Belle fans are going to be pissed. For two seasons now, they've been openly dangling chocolate chip cookies in front of the fanbase...and it turns out to be boiled cabbage.

 

In terms of S4, shippers were shown repeated callbacks and visual references to 'Skin Deep' and BatB, and it was clear that the Dark One curse was going to be broken. A lot of the fanbase (quite understandably) expected that this was going to be the moment the broken TLK of 'Skin Deep' was revisited and Belle was going to free her dying love from the darkness. So when Some Random Character steps in and whoofs the curse away with a frigging 'magic hat,' yes, many fans were crushed.

 

It's A&E's show, and they can write it any way the want. Maybe they should even get points for not going with the obvious narrative path. But that doesn't mean they're not going to hear from those fans who wanted it to go a different way.   

 

My guess is that Adam and Eddy's preference would be for Rumple to end up a villain or dead (or both), but the Rumbelle fans are so vocal that they just won't let that ship die.

 

These things have to be looked at in terms of a whole marketing stream. By the numbers, Rumbelle takes up very little screen-time (usually 2-3% per season), and the writers clearly don't put a lot of effort into it - but it is nevertheless a commodity that Once and ABC can use to promote the show in general. They can stick it in graphic novels, attach it to promotional items for giveaways and other swag, churn out little chipped teacup ecklaces but the thousands, pimp it out in these stupid fan-favorite polls.

 

Emilie got maybe five minutes on-screen in the finale, but she spent hours this weekend promotion the show at Regal Con. She's become one of the most visible regulars on the con circuit (Lana being a close second), and it's really a win-win - she gets some extra money and visibility, and the show gets a little ambassador who genuinely seems to love her co-stars and her character and her show. She's a link in the chain that keeps Oncers coming back for more, even as the show itself slips into fatal suckage.

 

tl;dr - Rumbelle, or the zombie form of what was once Rumbelle, will be around as long as RC is.

[kili]

In terms of S4, shippers were shown repeated callbacks and visual references to 'Skin Deep' and BatB, and it was clear that the Dark One curse was going to be broken. A lot of the fanbase (quite understandably) expected that this was going to be the moment the broken TLK of 'Skin Deep' was revisited and Belle was going to free her dying love from the darkness. So when Some Random Character steps in and whoofs the curse away with a frigging 'magic hat,' yes, many fans were crushed.

 

From what I can see, their ire was further raised because they think that TLK will now go to CS. If Rumple had been cured with a TLK by Belle, either that would be the end of the Dark Curse or the Dark Flubber would have just been freed. If it was the end of the Dark Curse, Emma couldn't become the Dark One. If it freed the Dark Flubber, having Hook or Snow or Henry kiss Emma wouldn't be able to TLK Emma because that would just free the Dark Flubber again and she'd have to re-absorb it. To keep the TLK as a cure in play, they couldn't resolve Rumple's Dark Curse with a TLK. So, I've seen a lot of upset Rumbelle fans because they feel the pay-off they've been promised for 4 seasons was given to Rumple's mortal enemy and tormentor.

 

As a CS fan, I can sympathize with them about the pay-off thing. But, I can also re-assure them that Emma will not be cured of the Dark Curse by a TLK from Hook. Regina will save the day once again. She will suddenly develop magical curing hair and/or tears to go along with her white magic and savior blood.  LOL.

[Delphi]

I would never complain about the screen time for Rumbelle in season two, there was drama, several centric episodes dedicated to them, all in all it was fantastic. And the separation in 3a was understandable/I'll get over it. 3b was 3b and I'll give it a pass as well, at least it ended with a fake creepy wedding.

4a completely dropped the characters for the most part. Rumple running around in the shadows and belle sleeping. Her actions in Heroes in Villains made sense to me and damn of I didn't almost cry when Rumple was, rightly, banished. Then in 4b there is absolutely no follow through, there is one scene of Rumple once again giving a speech to a once again passed out Belle. There's the scene of Rumple and Will working together and the scene at the end of the finale. Which started out nice and then the apprentice shows up and fixes it. I didn't sign up for a random apprentice to show up with a random hat and suck the evil out like Rumple was merely bit by a psychic evil rattle snake.

Too me Rumbelle could have had their TLK and the darkness could have been released. Being followed by Emma absorbing it under the belief that her light magic could keep it in check. The apprentice could try then to absorb it into the hat but it doesn't work, and Emma takes it in again. She, like Rumple before her, could refuse the power of a kiss because she refuses to let anyone else be put in danger. The apprentice then confesses about Merlin so we have a season 5 plot. But then at least I'd have some payoff.

And no, Rumple doesn't have to be with Belle next season. Because love doesn't mean you forgive. She can not want Rumple dead and still not be ready to be with him. Season five could actually give them the chance to know each other that season 2 never did. And could end with them on a positive note, looking forward to their future.

[Eegah]

I'm pretty sensitive to queerbaiting myself, but at least in the show I don't really see it here. If you want to know what it really looks like, just check out the last five seasons of Supernatural, in which scenes between romantic couples are literally copied by or from scenes between Dean and Castiel word for word and shot for shot, and the producers still continue to insist there's nothing going on. Though I certainly think they could do a better job in this area, as I've long since given up hope that we'll ever hear from Mulan again after what was apparently a huge and brave step forward turned out to be something they had no interest in actually pursuing.

[sharky]

Because we're usually focused on the negative of fandom, just wanted to post this tumblr post about how to properly treat Lana at conventions. It's a Lana/Regina blog, hence the focus on her, but the rules are respectful and the writer even explains that this should be true of all actors that are at conventions. It's just nice to see a fan being respectful considering all the nuttiness we see sometimes.

[stealinghome]

The queerbaiting is less in the show and more in the media.

I agree with this (though I think in-show OUAT is guilty of queerbaiting, but for Mulan/Aurora, not really for Swan Queen). Adam and Eddie can say all they want that Swan Queen isn't happening on the show, but until they tell members of their own writing staff to knock off the Swan Queen pandering, I'm holding them responsible for continuing to stoke the fire.

 

(Really they need to get that Nimerfro guy under control. He's a total asshat.)

[Faemonic]

(Really they need to get that Nimerfro guy under control. He's a total asshat.)

I think I saw a credit in one episode or another (or this might be common knowledge by now) but isn't Nimerfro also a producer? Producers, if they get out of control, seem to be a lot less easy to control than writers.

[Camera One]

All the writers on this show are also producers.  

 

I don't know if this site is reliable or not, but it seems to explain why they do that:

http://screenwriting.io/what-is-the-television-writerproducer-pecking-order/

[Serena]

Yeah, I think the people with the real power are the "executive" producers, which are A&E but also Steve Pearlman and David H. Goodman. I don't know what powers the latter two have, though.

[Mathius]

He and EdR both play it as a true love match....which is why he went into full-on Take No Shit mode at Comic Con last year when Barbara Barnett asked the "abusive relationship" question. That is very clearly not how they see it.

This was before Season 4 though, right? I can't help but wonder if their views changed since then, since I can't really describe a relationship where the woman is TERRIFIED of the man coming back into her life after a break-up as anything but abusive.

In terms of S4, shippers were shown repeated callbacks and visual references to 'Skin Deep' and BatB, and it was clear that the Dark One curse was going to be broken. A lot of the fanbase (quite understandably) expected that this was going to be the moment the broken TLK of 'Skin Deep' was revisited and Belle was going to free her dying love from the darkness. So when Some Random Character steps in and whoofs the curse away with a frigging 'magic hat,' yes, many fans were crushed.

I'm sorry, but I feel that these shippers have a huge misunderstanding of "Skin Deep" and the entire basis of the Rumbelle relationship on this show. They want and expect it to be just plain old BatB, when it's NOT. It's a twist on the story just like most fairy tales presented on the show, and the twist as specifically stated by the original "Skin Deep" promo is that this beast really IS a monster, not just on the outside but on the inside. A complex, tragic human monster, yes, but a monster all the same and a monster by choice. TLK was NEVER going to free him from the darkness because he WANTS the darkness, it gives him his precious power. Even when dying of that darkness, he wouldn't return a kiss because living without his power is a scarier prospect to him than death. So my apologies, but I can't really sympathize here. Edited May 13, 2015 by Mathius

[Dani-Ellie]

From the Hook thread:

 

 

 

I’m a long time lurker, originally from TWoP, and one of the things I appreciate about these forums is that viewers examine television shows critically. Which for me is like a breath of fresh air because most mainstream media outlets are generally interested in the fangirl aspect of entertainment. Certainly there’s nothing with wanting to celebrate a show, but everyone consumes their entertainment differently. Some enjoy taking apart a show, almost as if it were a watch, and figuring what makes it tick, or especially, what’s made it stop ticking. There’s pleasure to be had in understanding what’s wrong, what's not working, and figuring out how to fix it (though in truth we are all powerless to do anything about it). It’s for that reason that I wouldn’t want to see critical opinions quashed because for some they aren’t positive in spirit. And by the same token, it’s also for this reason that I like that this forum has a positivity thread that is a positivity safe zone. There’s appreciation for both sides. I wouldn’t want to see the conversations devolve into browbeating posters for being disappointed or unhappy with how the show is being written.

 

The last thing I would want to do is silence other people's voices. And I do agree that looking at a show critically is a good thing and it's great to not just blindly fangirl/fanboy something. But it's getting to the point for me that the single positivity thread is all that there is. We used to have both positive and negative outlooks on things. If there was something someone didn't like, there was something else that they did. If there was something someone didn't like, someone else did like it. The snark used to come from a place of love. But lately it feels like the snark is coming from a place of anger and dissatisfaction, which makes it feel mean-spirited rather than "we tease because we love." And lately it feels like there is no discussion about the positive things because all anyone wants to discuss is the negatives, meaning that the single positivity thread is the only place where the fans who do for the most part still actually enjoy the show can go without getting bogged down in the doom and gloom.

 

I just feel like there's offering constructive criticism and playing armchair TV writer to see what would have made the story work better for us, and then there's being overcritical. And lately I feel like the overcritical has been winning out.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Katherine]

There are two things that caused me to become so invested in Once Upon a Time: Captain Swan and these forums. I've been following the forums (well, originally the TwoP forums) religiously since Good Form. Before that I was just a casual viewer. I didn't give the show much thought at all. I wasn't invested in anyone's story except Hook's, or in any of the relationships except for Rumple and Bae. I wasn't even particularly interested in Emma or the Charmings. Reading other posters' thoughts has had a huge impact on the way I view the show. I agree that sometimes the nitpicking can make it more difficult to enjoy. There are times I wish I could go back to not caring. For example, Regina as a character never used to bother me. But now that many posters have pointed out all the flaws in her redemption arc, I can't NOT see them. It's getting to the point where I can't sit through her scenes. But for me, a big part of the enjoyment of watching Once is to come here and read about everyone else's impressions, including both the positive stuff and the critical stuff. If it weren't for you posters (and Captain Swan, of course) I probably would have stopped watching by now. At the very least, it would just be a show that I watch when nothing better is on. I like that I have this show to look forward to every week. I like having people point out things I totally missed. I like reading all the spoilers and speculation over the summer, even when it does get a little negative. It's this type of critique that keeps me watching.

I do agree that things have been especially negative lately and I think sometimes we do tend to jump to the worst possible conclusion. But I think a lot of that is because there has been a noticeable drop in quality this season. Obviously not everyone agrees with that. I'm sure there are some fans who loved 4B. But my impression is that the critical consensus seems to be that 4B was the weakest season yet. Personally sometimes I find it hard not to be negative because as much as I like Once, I think when all is said and done I'm just going to remember it as a show that never quite lived up to its potential.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Katherine

[ABitOFluff]

From the Hook thread:

 

 

 

 

The last thing I would want to do is silence other people's voices. And I do agree that looking at a show critically is a good thing and it's great to not just blindly fangirl/fanboy something. But it's getting to the point for me that the single positivity thread is all that there is. We used to have both positive and negative outlooks on things. If there was something someone didn't like, there was something else that they did. If there was something someone didn't like, someone else did like it. The snark used to come from a place of love. But lately it feels like the snark is coming from a place of anger and dissatisfaction, which makes it feel mean-spirited rather than "we tease because we love." And lately it feels like there is no discussion about the positive things because all anyone wants to discuss is the negatives, meaning that the single positivity thread is the only place where the fans who do for the most part still actually enjoy the show can go without getting bogged down in the doom and gloom.

 

I just feel like there's offering constructive criticism and playing armchair TV writer to see what would have made the story work better for us, and then there's being overcritical. And lately I feel like the overcritical has been winning out.

I have to agree with you, Dani-Elle. You said exactly what I've been thinking, and forgive me if I'm a little more blunt about it.

 

Of course a lot of people were disappointed with 411, as was I. However, I said my peace and moved on. It was what is was, and I just don't tend to dwell on things too much. Then came 412 and a we fun, snarky live thread. Since that time, it's become more and more difficult to find a thread that not 90% criticism and nitpicking or wild speculation. On top of that, I feel that lot of the criticism has gotten repetitive and, frankly, predictable.

 

Take everyone's favorite thread for example: Spoilers. I'm a spoiler addict, but it's gotten to a point that every tweet, every interview and every behind the scenes picture gets picked to pieces with someone inevitably declaring how much the episode will suck and how A&E are the worst kind of hacks. Basically, I had to force myself from going in there because I knew that every promotional picture of Emma and Regina standing next to each other would bring at least page or two of rage about queerbaiting. I'm sorry if I'm exaggerating, but honestly, when you want to comment on something, but the conversation had turned so negative you don't want to get into it, well, it gets frustrating. (In fairness, if the spoiler thread was nothing but fangirl squeeing, that would be just as frustrating). Now, you can tell me that there are plenty of threads around here, from what I can see there's still plenty of the same in most of them.

 

Honestly, I don't mind looking the show critically, but I wish everyone would lighten up a little and forums would go back to more of a balance of critical commentary, snarky fun, and even a little bit of squeeing.

Edited May 14, 2015 by ABitOFluff

[Souris]

People are posting how they feel. Some people are feeling negative. Perhaps there's a reason we're feeling negative. But you're basically asking us not to post how we feel or somehow miraculously change how we feel in order to make you more comfortable. I don't think that's OK. People should be allowed to post however they feel, as long as they're not insulting other posters or spewing profanity, and not be somehow shamed or denigrated or made to feel bad for daring to express their opinions.

 

Imagine if there was nothing but gushing. Would it be OK if somebody said, "I wish y'all weren't so positive and pollyanna about everything! You make my teeth ache with all the sugar! You're being totally undiscerning and interfering with my critical viewing. I can't have a decent conversation here." I don't think that would be cool, either, because I think it's pretty crappy to try to dictate or pass judgment on how others feel or post.

 

Why not just post what you feel about the show, and if others want to chime in on that, they will?

 

This whole discussion would be way boards-on-boards at TWoP, that's for sure.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Souris

[KAOS Agent]

I recognize the negativity and yes, there are times I roll my eyes because fans can get a little too invested in their hatred of something (even if I generally agree with what's being said). That said, the fandom's reaction has gotten more and more negative as the show has gotten bleaker and bleaker. It's hard to be positive and have fun when the fun happy moments of the show have been removed. There were episodes in 4B where I struggled to come up with even finding a quip that was humorous. None of the characters were even smiling.  I think that people start to mimic the tone of the show which got really dark this season and ultimately ended up really, really bleak.

 

The heart warming family moments weren't there either. Snowing & Emma were stuck in a nasty pattern of lying or anger, so no fun Charming family. Emma was branded a murderer for protecting her son and then almost executed Lily. Robin was raped. Marian was murdered (again). Rumpel was cycling deeper and deeper into madness and darkness. Belle was unhappy and afraid. Regina was brooding and frustrated. When none of the characters are happy or even allowed a minute of cheer, the fans will be feeling that in their own view of the show. Emma giggling in bed was the most lighthearted any character on this show has been in a long time and of course even that didn't last very long, so I pretty much think the negativity and (please forgive me for using this word) darkness is a more a reflection on the tone of the show than the fandom just suddenly deciding to hate on everything.

Edited May 14, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[RadioGirl27]

It's true that we are really harsh sometimes in our comments about the show. But that's because the show has been really disappointing this season. And really sad, the show has lost the snark and the fun aspects. I'm not trying to change what people think about the show, or trying to dismiss their enjoyment, but fair criticism is good and necessary.

[FurryFury]

Imagine if there was nothing but gushing. Would it be OK if somebody said, "I wish y'all weren't so positive and pollyanna about everything! You make my teeth ache with all the sugar! You're being totally undiscerning and interfering with my critical viewing. I can't have a decent conversation here."

 

You know, this is how I felt on the TWOP Sleepy Hollow thread back in s1 when everyone loved it and I was seemingly the only one seeing cracks in the fabric of the show. But there was so much gushing nobody payed any attention and eventually I just stopped posting altogether, rather than raining on people's parade.

 

People have a right to their opinion. Period. If you don't like what other people write, don't read them. Ignore people like me or Tater or anybody else who are very critical of the show's current state.

 

I had the unfortunate experience of people being very negative in another forum on these boards. I even complained to the moderator once (probably shouldn't have). I quit it and came back months later, and the amount of people liking it grew quite a bit - because the show deserved it. I've never seen people being upset with the show getting lambasted in places like The Following board (which I used to check just for fun, dropped that crap in season 1), and Once is on the fast track to that level of quality.

 

Don't blame the fans, blame the writers.

[Dani-Ellie]

People are posting how they feel. Some people are feeling negative. Perhaps there's a reason we're feeling negative. But you're basically asking us not to post how we feel or somehow miraculously change how we feel in order to make you more comfortable. I don't think that's OK. People should be allowed to post however they feel, as long as they're not insulting other posters or spewing profanity, and not be somehow shamed or denigrated or made to feel bad for daring to express their opinions.

 

I don't think I'm saying that at all. All I'm saying is that the tone here has taken a turn for the overly critical, to the point that things are being picked apart or even slammed way beyond what seems necessary. Look that the discussion in the Writers thread. We have no indication whatsoever what the new writer can do and people have already started picking her apart. Or the discussion in the spec or spoilers thread about the storyline for next season. We are three days into hiatus with no indication whatsoever where the story is going to go beyond Emma being the new Dark One, and people are already half-expecting that Emma's going to be running around next season being super nasty to everyone and like, eating puppies and kittens.

 

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, nor am I trying to change what people post. All I'm saying is I miss the balanced view I used to get here.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[buildmeupbuttercup]

Reading other posters' thoughts has had a huge impact on the way I view the show. I agree that sometimes the nitpicking can make it more difficult to enjoy. There are times I wish I could go back to not caring. For example, Regina as a character never used to bother me. But now that many posters have pointed out all the flaws in her redemption arc, I can't NOT see them. It's getting to the point where I can't sit through her scenes. But for me, a big part of the enjoyment of watching Once is to come here and read about everyone else's impressions, including both the positive stuff and the critical stuff. If it weren't for you posters (and Captain Swan, of course) I probably would have stopped watching by now. At the very least, it would just be a show that I watch when nothing better is on. I like that I have this show to look forward to every week. I like having people point out things I totally missed. I like reading all the spoilers and speculation over the summer, even when it does get a little negative. It's this type of critique that keeps me watching.

I do agree that things have been especially negative lately and I think sometimes we do tend to jump to the worst possible conclusion. But I think a lot of that is because there has been a noticeable drop in quality this season. Obviously not everyone agrees with that. I'm sure there are some fans who loved 4B. But my impression is that the critical consensus seems to be that 4B was the weakest season yet. Personally sometimes I find it hard not to be negative because as much as I like Once, I think when all is said and done I'm just going to remember it as a show that never quite lived up to its potential.

This. Especially the part about how it will always be the show that "never quite lived up to its potential." I don't regularly post on the boards because a lot of times someone already touched on the points I want to make and I feel like I would be "piling on" and I do try to stay away from beating a dead horse. However, these boards have saved 4B for me.

 

I've said before this is the only place I am active in the fandom. Twitter is too cesspool-y for me and Tumblr--well some of you have waaaay more patience than I would. I'm too "old" to deal with lectures from 20 year olds, so I lurk around a few blogs but that's it. I was happy to have this board because honestly some of those blogs weren't looking at 4B with any critical lens and there was a very "everything is perfect" attitude going around. There seemed to be a lot of bickering there between people expressing some negative opinions and the "I better not see anyone complaining about ANYTHING in 4B because LITERALLY everything has been awesome so STFU" attitude, so I love coming here where at least people are civil and adults about it. It was also getting harder to find people who side-eyed Regina because a lot of the blogs I used to really like lumped her into the same "great redemption arc" category as Hook and I strongly disagreed. (Unpopular opinion: I love that Zelena is back--not that she's preggers-- but that she's back because yes she's batshit crazy but she's a welcome character who doesn't kiss Regina's ass and I welcome that!) So I was very happy this board was here with others who feel about her the way I do.

 

I recognize the negativity and yes, there are times I roll my eyes because fans can get a little too invested in their hatred of something (even if I generally agree with what's being said). That said, the fandom's reaction has gotten more and more negative as the show has gotten bleaker and bleaker. It's hard to be positive and have fun when the fun happy moments of the show have been removed. There were episodes in 4B where I struggled to come up with even finding a quip that was humorous. None of the characters were even smiling.  I think that people start to mimic the tone of the show which got really dark this season and ultimately ended up really, really bleak.

 

The heart warming family moments weren't there either. Snowing & Emma were stuck in a nasty pattern of lying or anger, so no fun Charming family. Emma was branded a murderer for protecting her son and then almost executed Lily. Robin was raped. Marian was murdered (again). Rumpel was cycling deeper and deeper into madness and darkness. Belle was unhappy and afraid. Regina was brooding and frustrated. When none of the characters are happy or even allowed a minute of cheer, the fans will be feeling that in their own view of the show. Emma giggling in bed was the most lighthearted any character on this show has been in a long time and of course even that didn't last very long, so I pretty much think the negativity and (please forgive me for using this word) darkness is a more a reflection on the tone of the show than the fandom just suddenly deciding to hate on everything.

When it gets to negative on here I either don't read the posts or just roll my eyes, but yeah I think the tone of this board matches the tone of this show. I actually really loved 4A and I was spoiled so while I didn't expect to love 4B, I didn't think I would hate it as much as I did. I had a very visceral hatred of numerous episodes this arc and I was not expecting that. I hated 405 but it at least contained one of my favorite CS scenes, so I could find something positive about it, but a few of the 4B episodes I couldn't name one scene I liked. Unpopular opinion: I didn't like the Cruella episode, so I think there were maybe 2-3 episodes that I could actually categorize myself as enjoying.

 

Even the finale, there were scenes that I enjoyed but on a whole I had a sense of dread the whole way through--probably because I was spoiled about the ending. And maybe that's my problem. All the big "twists" were either spoiled or predicted by fans so seeing it play out on screen a month and a half after hearing it being dissected on here and on blogs was kind of anticlimactic. I've been dreading the whole Emma goes dark/dagger scene since it was spoiled back on April 1. Was it better to be spoiled and prepared? I don't know because it still dampened the episode for me and I was dreading the finale for over a month. Was that better than being shocked and sucker punched by it when it happened? I guess that's something I will have to assess before the new spoilers come out for season 5.

 

I get that nobody wants to watch a show where there characters are happy all the time and there is no angst but there was ALL angst this half season and no real happiness. I'm a huge Emma stan and its just been so sad and depressing to watch my poor girl have so much sadness this arc/ season, barely get to smile, and now this darkness plot for who knows how long.

 

I hope they turn it around in season 5 but again I'm not excited for a DarkSwan plot and I just want some of the joy and fun from the show back. They keep talking about this being a "family show" so I wish they would bring back some fun and humor and tone down the dark drama. I know you should expect the Queens of Darkness arc to be dark, but hell my problem was actually how little QoD there was. To me 4B seemed like a clusterfuck. I hated everything about how the author plot didn't seem to be cohesive or make sense. I hated the addition of the author and Lily and I hate that she is apparently sticking around for at least a little while next season. Sadly, I'm here for the long haul--however many seasons that may be--so hopefully 5A can right things the way 3A did. In all honestly if there hadn't been an outlet like this to get some of this negativity out I don't really know if I could continue with the show, no matter how much I wanted to.

[Minneapple]

I've been reading the speculation thread and it's not that bad. Mostly people are just playing the crazy spec game, throwing out their theories for the next season. Some people are pointing out that Dark Emma can't be all evil because of the light magic in her. It's not all negativity and trashing the show.

[FurryFury]

For me, there's also the problem of not shipping anything (or, really, CS, because all other couples have been either ruined as characters (Snowing with the eggnapping stuff), as couples (Rumbelle) or were awful from the get-go (OQ)). When you ship, you tend to view shows in a different, usually more positive way, at least while your pairing has generally OK writing. For me, while I don't mind CS and I like that it makes Emma happy, they simply aren't as big of a draw as for some of you, which gives me a different (usually harsher) perspective. It kinda seems that these days, at least here, 90% of the positivity is connected to shipping, and while I'm really glad for those of you who are shippers (I really expected A&E to ruin CS the same way they've ruined the rest of the show this season), they have so little screentime that they'll never outweigh the bad for me without some huge investment on my part.

[Dani-Ellie]

I'm a huge Emma stan and its just been so sad and depressing to watch my poor girl have so much sadness this arc/ season, barely get to smile, and now this darkness plot for who knows how long.

 

I'm a huge Emma fan, too. I mean, she is honest to goodness my favorite television character ever. And perhaps this belongs in the Emma thread, but instead of expecting the worst of this storyline, I am excited for it. Because it could very well be amazing. It could very well be what I've wanted for Emma since the start of this show. Not the darkness, not the evil, but the fact that she now has people in her life who are going to be fighting like hell to get her back. I mean, does anyone really think that Snow, Charming, and especially Hook are going to let this stand? If Henry and Regina help in the fight, that could be wonderful, too. After four full seasons of Emma saving everyone else, I am so very ready to see everyone else return the favor.

 

To me, Emma made this sacrifice with the full expectation that it will not be permanent. She told her parents to figure out a way to get the darkness out of her because they'd done it once before. She told Hook she loved him. She gave them hope. She placed her life in their hands. She put her trust in them. She said without saying, "You three can save me. I know you will save me." That's such a huge step in Emma's development, and I feel like that's been overlooked in the cloud of negativity.

 

And maybe when it airs come September, I will hate it and maybe I'll wish it had been done differently. But I won't know that until it airs.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Dani-Ellie