Fleishman Is In Trouble - General Discussion

[txhorns79]

7 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Honestly, that end credits Jazzercise scene just felt like fan service to me, like a way to just gush over Lizzy Caplan.  Especially when it seemed like the crew was applauding her at the end. 🙄

I mean, I will say watching her do some kind of interpretive dance to Total Eclipse of the Heart was pretty funny. 

 

7 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

 

The whole Libby Adam relationship was such a disappointment.  I'm such a big fan of Josh Radnor, and I was so excited to see him on the show, and he's looking so fine.  But man, what a waste of a character.  We only get a tiny sliver of that relationship and just nothing makes sense to me.

I would agree that they gave him very little to do.  Their relationship appeared to have significant problems, and I have no real idea as to how they were resolved.  

[QQQQ]

19 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Honestly, that end credits Jazzercise scene just felt like fan service to me, like a way to just gush over Lizzy Caplan.  Especially when it seemed like the crew was applauding her at the end. 

Early on in the series I Googled who the narrator was for the series...

I thought I was watching the beginning of an outtake reel, but then the dance went on and on. Maybe it was a scene that got cut, but Caplan worked so hard learning the routine they didn't want to waste it.

Also, I wasn't paying close enough attention but for the first several episodes I thought Rachel was the narrator (talking about herself in the 3rd person).

Edited January 1, 2023 by QQQQ

[kitkat343]

On 12/30/2022 at 5:51 PM, aghst said:

She was going to LA for Sam though.

Ridiculous, taking the kids to LA just so she can more easily fuck Sam, away from his wife.

Even if she wasn't going to LA for Sam, its still a pretty terrible idea to take your kids across the country when you are trying to start up a new business.  She won't have much time for them, and they will be dealing with difficulties from being separated from all of their friends, Toby and their long time nanny (she didn't get fired until after Rachel went MIA and Toby demanded she work through her vacation which was insanely stupid because this show was set in precovid NYC, where he could have easily called a million nanny agencies and gotten someone to take care of his kids during the nanny's vacation).

If she had a business reason to start the LA office, the benefit of the divorce would be that she could leave the kids behind for the summer, establish the office and then come back to NY in the fall and resume shared custody then.  

Edited January 1, 2023 by kitkat343

[Milburn Stone]

On 12/29/2022 at 9:41 PM, EdnasEdibles said:

But I think both Adam and Toby are the same in the sense that the women in their lives are not doing well, and they can only think of how it affects them and how annoying it is for them to have to deal with that. Both Toby and Adam were playing the victim in my opinion...In the garage fight, you can kind of see that Adam still cares for her but even then he’s not seeing what’s going on and he’s very much “you have a nice house and you have kids. Why are you so fucking upset?” Which is missing the point.

I agree with you, but I feel the same way I did about the playwright at the door, namely: Who among us would be different? It takes a long time to move beyond the anger of "Why are you so fucking upset?" and get to compassion. The angry partner has his/her own needs, not just the partner who to others is more obviously in trouble. Both Toby and Adam took a good long while to reach a point of empathy--which, to my observation, is how it happens in real life.

[mostlylurking]

On 12/2/2022 at 5:16 PM, Silly Angel said:

I swear Adam Brody just keeps getting better looking and more charming - why is he not a bigger star? I suspect he likes a more low key life but he's always great and I love that his character here is also named Seth. 

I agree. I just started this show yesterday. I’m also baffled as to why he isn’t a bigger star, but as you said maybe he prefers it that way.

The friends are definitely the best part of the show, although I’m kind of eye rolling Lizzie cast as an unhappy/bored housewife. I’m so sick of that stereotype.

I find it hard to believe all these women want to bone Toby, he seems massively unlikeable to me and not at all attractive, but I guess they’re desperate.

[shelley1234]

3 hours ago, mostlylurking said:

I agree. I just started this show yesterday. I’m also baffled as to why he isn’t a bigger star, but as you said maybe he prefers it that way.

 

I listened to Adam Brody a few years ago on Justin Long's podcast and it was clear that he and Leighton prioritize their children and family over work and their careers. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

I kind of figured. Leighton should be a bigger star too.

[jabRI]

Just binged this over two nights with my husband, who remembered the book better than I did.  Have to say the first half was more interesting to me, the whole Libby angst got really boring.  Feel like they could have easily compressed this to 7 episodes rather than 8.  Rachel's ep was great, but I agree it doesn't make sense that the office never asked for a wellness check, or even the front desk at her apartment.

[jabRI]

I just have to also say, it didn't make sense to me that Libby would leave Rachel alone in her apartment with a 'doctor's appointment in the morning'.  The woman had a psychotic break that lasted weeks, how does she know she can be left to her own devices and make it to an appointment?  Seems irresponsible to me.  And she stopped talking to Toby, but no indication that she ever followed up to see how Rachel was.  Realized they weren't friends, but come on.

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by jabRI

[mostlylurking]

3 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I kind of figured. Leighton should be a bigger star too.

I agree. Love her. 

[HerkyJerky]

5 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I kind of figured. Leighton should be a bigger star too.

AGREED and she's multi-talented too!  I LOVE this song!

 

[Grammaeryn]

As someone who is a smidge older than the main characters, I really related to the whole “Is this it?” dissatisfaction and then feeling like an ingrate for even asking. There is almost a mourning for who you dreamt you would be. I have cousins in their 20’s and I look at them and remember how full of hope and energy I used to be. Then I listen to “Blackhole Sun” and I’m back to my achy sleep deprived 40 something self.

[Milburn Stone]

12 hours ago, jabRI said:

Feel like they could have easily compressed this to 7 episodes rather than 8. 

This seems valid, and it made me think. I surmise that one factor going into the number of episodes was, "look, we have three leads here. We have to give each of their characters at least one episode basically all to themselves to get the actors to agree to do the show."

[Paws]

Finished the series last night and Claire Danes group therapy scene was the most emotional thing I've ever seen on TV. I was crying right along with her and that is something that just doesn’t happen. What an incredible actress.  Episode 8 was so boring by comparison and I was snoozing near the end…too many monologues. Very happy for Seth though, he’s making a good choice. Toby can bite me.

[DakotaJustice]

I’ve already watched this series twice. Then I downloaded the Audible book. There are some slow portions of the series but it took a second viewing to really drink in the details.  (Spoilers following)
 

Spoiler

All the characters have flaws/damage but I actually liked Toby. I was divorced more than 10 years ago and I remember going on the dating apps and initially finding a smorgasbord of men. However that got old after a relatively short while. I see Toby going through the same process. At first he was taking full advantage, then gradually focused on one woman who was unavailable otherwise, then that ended as he came to realize that he wanted something more.  He clearly loves his kids and missed them during the short time they were at camp. It wasn’t 100% clear in the series, but in the book although he kept saying he was newly divorced the papers were never signed and divorce was never finalized. In episode 8 as Libby was talking about her book, Toby’s eyes filled with tears at the thought of Rachel appearing at his door and asking “but then what happens”?
Rachel was in love with Toby but after the traumatic birth experience, she changed. And eventually dived more into her work as a distraction, leaving Toby to do most of the child raising. It took 11 years for her PTSD to come to a head and result in a nervous breakdown.  I think she still loved/cared for Toby but was wrapped up in her grief. Did she really come to his door at the end or was that just Toby’s wishful thinking? 
I have mixed feelings about Libby. I get that she was searching for something or going through a midlife crisis but to basically abandon her hubby and kids for days at a time didn’t sit well with me. 
Seth popped in and out. When he proposed to his girlfriend at the end, both Libby and Toby dissed it but I could see the longing in their faces seeing the love there. It made them look back to the beginning of their marriages that they had forgotten, I think. 
oh, and I loved Toby adopting Bubbles! 

Just some thoughts. This series is sticking with me. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by DakotaJustice

[SlovakPrincess]

I didn't know what to think of this series, but Episode 7 had me actually crying a little for Rachel.  Claire Danes knocked it out of the park in this role.  

Agree they should have given Josh Radnor more to do.  I did love his scenes in the last episode though -- as much as I had empathy for Libby's mid-life crisis, I was glad Adam finally told her that everyone else was not necessarily happy or shallow, they just weren't wallowing in their ambivalence the way she was.  

Good for Seth.  His proposal speech was sweet.  

Glad to see Rachel there at the very end ... 'cause Toby and Libby were, uh, pretty cavalier about the fact that she was alone in her apartment having an extended nervous breakdown.  Like ... did Libby just trust Rachel would get herself to the doctor the next morning?  And Toby didn't think about maybe making sure his kids' mother didn't harm herself?  That really bothered me.   

Edited January 7, 2023 by SlovakPrincess

[PRgal]

Finally putting this on my watch list.  Geez, the cast just makes me feel old (I'm in the same age cohort) - I mean, I still think of Claire as Angela Chase or Juliet!  Without having seen the first episode, but having gone through this thread, I think I can understand.  There's always going to be peer pressure, parent pressure and just plain ol' Keeping up with the Joneses.  I just signed my son up for day camp.  He's doing five weeks, and it's tough on my wallet.  I know parents who're putting their kids in camp for the entire summer.  Can't do that.  Not in the budget.  But sometimes, I feel like I'm a bad mom because he's not going all summer.  I wasn't even able to put him in a sports camp because it's full!  

[aghst]

Liz Kaplan gives interview to Fresh Air.

It's not just about this role, but covers her whole career.

[LuvMyShows]

A little late in finding this series, but really liked it.  I thought all the leads were very very good.  The plot development I had the hardest time with, was how quickly Hannah turned around her entire personality.  Yes the camp episode was traumatic, but we weren't shown any reason why the trauma resulted in the particular personality changes that she experienced.  It also wasn't clear why Adam, after basically writing Libby off, would suddenly just take her back like that.

On 12/30/2022 at 12:57 PM, circumvent said:

I haven't read the book so I don't know how much of it is in the series but the fact that, as far as we know the story ended, Toby showed no empathy at all for Rachel, after Libby told him all about their day together, is 100% not relatable to me. It is sociopathic, almost. She is the mother of his children. Completely ignoring her issues, as hurt, angry or annoyed he is, is hurting his children, preventing them from having a relationship. 

And that is why it seemed so incongruous how he was so rapt at the story Libby was telling at the engagement party, and how he clearly wanted the ending to be Rachel coming back.

On 12/30/2022 at 3:52 PM, kitkat343 said:

It feels like a lot of Libby's problem is that she wasn't able to advance at the men's magazine.  And I really find it hard to be sympathetic about that, because its a men's magazine.  I'd be really sympathetic for her she wrote for Time magazine and they gave all the good assignments to male colleagues, but honestly it feels more like "why did it take her so long to realize that a men's magazine isn't going to support a woman?"  

What's more baffling to me, and I don't think was ever explained, is why it was always her dream to work for a men's magazine in the first place.  No part of how we saw her in the flashbacks is consistent with having any desire at all to work at a place like that, let alone stay.

[Harvey]

Well, after watching the series, I am on Rachel's side. Toby was a jerk and judged her for being herself. They did have very different values and ideas about child raising so that was always going to be a source of conflict, but Rachel was devoted to trying to make the marriage work while Toby was criticizing her 24/7 and he was the one to ask for a divorce - only to have the gall to feel sad later when he was faced with the consequences of his actions.

[kitkat343]

I rewatched the series and what struck me upon rewatching was Rachel announcing Sam was her hall pass at the dinner party.  The dinner party guests were all of their mutual friends. It's pretty weird that Rachel announced to her friend group that she wanted to sleep with the Queen Bee's husband and didn't get iced out.  That makes Sam Rothman's showing up and charming her pretty unsurprising.  

Edited June 7, 2023 by kitkat343

[paramitch]

I'm on episode 6. And I am being REALLY careful to remain unspoiled, so I read the first two pages then jumped over here.

I'm so surprised that so people think Toby is a good guy. I cannot stand him, and I don't trust a word of what we're seeing.

First off, all the main opening scenes show the world upside down then righting itself on Toby. To me this immediately signals that we can't trust what we see. Then his narrative (it's so weird that it's by Libby!) is just SO hangdog, and SO self-sacrificing, and Rachel is SO mean and cold and money-grubbing, he's SO sad, he thinks he's SO patient. You get where I'm going with this.

And combine this with him "showing" us all this and yet his words don't always match this "self-sacrificing sweet husband" act he seems to think he's showing us. He's really controlling and cutting (I loved it when he said something cruel to Libby in "congratulating" her on her writing, like "I always hoped you would get out of your own way and stop being crazy so you could write something good," and she was like, "Do you ever hear yourself?!"). He is visibly this spoiled rich kid who disdains all aspects of money precisely because he's always had it, and he's been shockingly thoughtless toward Rachel about this aspect the entire time.

He was then incredibly callous and completely unsupportive during her pregnancy and first delivery (he does nothing at the revelation that the doctor assaulted her and broke her water but whine, "Hey, you don't treat a patient like that," ugh), he make little to no effort to help her through what is obviously postpartum depression (and PTSD from the delivery trauma)... just. Ugh. Add in his total lack of support that she was sexually harassed and passed over for promotion (he's just jealous that the guy didn't consider him a romantic rival!) AND his outsized jealousy that she may be involved with someone in their circle when he's been joylessly screwing half the women in NYC? 

I hate him. And I almost forgot -- let's not forget him constantly wanting to get in the way of her genuinely wonderful, cool career, which gives her visible joy, and which he just mocks inwardly. Or when he tried to get that other job that would have caused her to relocate and lose everything she had built so she could be a "better mother and wife?" 

And all the while, you can tell he thinks this is showing us him at his best. Which is frequently really icky.

Which is why I am absolutely waiting for the other shoe to drop (oh please, God) and we realize this is classic unreliable narration and not a story we can trust. I even wonder if it applies to his little girl, since she is so over the top heinous I even wondered if he was projecting his feelings for his wife onto her as well.

I just hate him. And I kind of hate his friends. I don't trust him one bit. 

And who does NOTHING when his wife disappears for 3-4 days and doesn't show up for their kids? Who hears that she was NAPPING IN CENTRAL PARK ON A BENCH and shrugs and says, "That selfish bitch!" I mean, obviously, Rachel is deeply in trouble right now. Something terrible has happened to her or is happening to her.

So I'm definitely waiting for some revelation here. I wouldn't be surprised if, as @Milburn Stone and others have posited, we're going to find it this was actually about LIBBY all along, or something.

So far, this entire thing feels to me like one of those infamous Reddit posts where the husband posts this saintly, self-sacrificing outline of all of his sacrifices for his wife and family and wonders where he went wrong, only for the wife to come raging in magnificently after finding out about his post to list out all the lies he told and everything he omitted (usually including cruelty/abuse, neglect, gaslighting, an affair, control issues, etc.).

I'm not enjoying this, exactly, but I definitely want to see what happens.

[ProudMary]

Edited to add: This video contains spoilers for both Fleishman Is in Trouble and for Succession. 

In the lead-up to Emmy nominations, I always enjoy these Actors on Actors interviews that Variety hosts. This particular episode with Claire Danes and Kieran Culkin may just be the best one I've ever watched. (It helps that I'm also a Succession viewer, but I suspect that many in the Fleishman audience have also watched Succession.) 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by ProudMary
See text above.

[paramitch]

Okay, so I finished it, and I was wrong -- I'm glad Toby wasn't the worst person in the world.

But he was still astoundingly tone-deaf to what his wife was suffering, and I think the story -- especially as mirrored by Libby and her own disregard for her husband (and vice versa) was a great call for empathy, for people to simply realize that there are always two (or more) sides to everything.

But still, poor Rachel. Episode 5 had me in tears. Claire Danes was just fantastic and broke my heart. The scene when she broke down to the survivors group was so upsetting. And I was so moved when Libby took care of her, and then Rachel just says, "I always liked you. I just thought you didn't like me."

I liked the way the entire story kind of skidded into Libby's, although I also felt like her relationship with her husband was a little too parallel to Toby/Rachel, and I really felt his coldness was overplayed.

I was moved by the end, and found myself rooting for everyone to be happy, which was a nice feeling.

I didn't love the entire thing. I felt the first four episodes should have been condensed to two, and the story suffered from the claustrophobic focus on Toby, honestly, for so damn long.

So I don't think it was successful entirely, but I did enjoy where it got to, and think it had something genuinely interesting to express.

Both Lizzy Caplan and Claire Danes (especially) were fantastic.

2 hours ago, ProudMary said:

In the lead-up to Emmy nominations, I always enjoy these Actors on Actors interviews that Variety hosts. This particular episode with Claire Danes and Kieran Culkin may just be the best one I've ever watched. (It helps that I'm also a Succession viewer, but I suspect that many in the Fleishman audience have also watched Succession.) 

 

I just finished bingeing "Succession" so I started to watch this, then realized they were going to get into spoilers for this, so I stopped watching. I'm looking forward to finishing it! They had such great rapport, and it was a lot of fun to hear her talk about "Homeland" (I loved it), and to hear him talk about his process for playing Roman (he was incredible and I really hope he wins the Emmy this year for it).

[ProudMary]

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

I just finished bingeing "Succession" so I started to watch this, then realized they were going to get into spoilers for this, so I stopped watching. I'm looking forward to finishing it! They had such great rapport, and it was a lot of fun to hear her talk about "Homeland" (I loved it), and to hear him talk about his process for playing Roman (he was incredible and I really hope he wins the Emmy this year for it).

I just edited my post to add a spoiler warning for both shows. Sorry about that.

It was a nice surprise to discover that they had worked together 20+ years ago as teenagers. I'm sure that contributed to how comfortable they seemed to be with each other.

I hope they each win an Emmy this year. I think both Claire and Kieran deserve it. Two brilliant performances!