S05.E08: Motherland

[HMFan]

On 10/26/2022 at 1:31 AM, kitkat343 said:

Having Hannah rescued and brought to Canada would be interesting because she is old enough to have potentially accepted her new family and truly not want to return.  We saw that with some of the older children who June rescued on the plane- they missed the Gilead elite parents who stole them from their biological parents.  Hannah was scared of June last time we saw them together, and I'm not sure she would want to leave Gilead.  Hannah's adoptive parents seemed to truly love her, and they were portrayed as the ones responsible for June's convenient plot armor since they stated they didn't want Hannah to be devastated when she found out that June was killed.  

And if Hannah doesn't want to go how on earth would June handle being rejected by the daughter she sacrificed everything for?  And how can they keep her in Canada against her will?  Or would they have to let her choose to go back to Gilead?  

These are much more interesting plot lines than watching June stare endlessly into the camera (I'd also like to see more of the experiences of Naomi Putnam and the other wives  to see if they regret the society they live in but I'll take whatever interesting plot I can get)

Hannah is only 12 years old. She must realize under Gilead she will be married off to an older pervert. Being that Hannah is smart, it is doubtful she will want her whole importance in life to depend upon bearing children and the decisions made for her by others.  But yes, she will likely need an adjustment period once/if she arrives in Canada. Again stockholm syndrome. Although Lawrence is trying to project the image that his whole new island is planned....it seems desperate and there are no guarantees for anyone.  I believe he is trying to change Gilead slowly, but who is willing to spend 5 to 10 years in what amounts to a cushy pretty prison camp?

On 10/26/2022 at 1:46 AM, Quilt Fairy said:

"Do you have an irony deficiency?"

"Gilead's gonna Gilead."

Someone's been writing some good lines.  And of course, Commander Lawrence is the best at snark.

That line was pretty funny.

[HMFan]

On 10/26/2022 at 3:24 AM, kitkat343 said:

They can legally take her anywhere they'd like, but part of the reason why courts allow children Hannah's age to have a say in custody is that otherwise they'd keep running away.  It would be pretty hard for Luke and June to keep a 12 year old in Canada against her will given the weird no man's land thing that's going on right now.  

She has to have heard somehow her parents are living free in Gilead and keep trying to get to her.  She almost appears to know she's somehow different. She notices people taking video/pictures of her.  At the end she looks up to the sky...a sign of freedom and smiles. Like she knows somehow soon she will be free. I wouldn't be surprised if she gets to Canada and becomes a new source of information for Tutello since she was stationed with a high ranking commander for so long that said she is smart. It also almost sounded like a helicopter was approaching when she was looking up at the sky. You never hear any type of aircraft in Gilead.

[TV Anonymous]

Gilead geography and governing structure confuse me. Unless of course this story happens in an alternate universe and they are all located in Middle-Earth or Westeros.

What areas of the current United States that Gilead control? So far we see that most of the story happens in and around Boston. We also see that from Boston Gilead extends to Chicago and to the District of Columbia. If Gilead is centered around Boston, the logical place for the refugees to gather is Montreal, not Toronto. This show makes it that Toronto to Gilead area where Lawrence and Blaine are is just a stone's throw away.

Where is New Bethlehem then? Where is the island community in the United States enough to handle all the return refugees? I suppose that the refugees fleeing Gilead would be in the hundreds of thousand if not millions considering the atrocities that Gilead commits.

About governance, I always thought that commanders that we saw, Waterford, Putnam, Lawrence, Blaine, were local commanders. There were national, higher-level commanders, I thought. Just like Commander Elliot Stabler in DC. But now Lawrence admitted that Gilead was his creation and he was able to make policy decision for Gilead?

The Wheelers is another element that confuses me. How do they do what they do Gilead-style on Canadian soil? Does Canada not recognize Serena as the baby's mother? As well, they manage to have an armed army in Canada?

[circumvent]

41 minutes ago, HMFan said:

Hannah is only 12 years old. She must realize under Gilead she will be married off to an older pervert. Being that Hannah is smart, it is doubtful she will want her whole importance in life to depend upon bearing children and the decisions made for her by others.

She was kidnapped when she was 5 (?) and even though she might have some memories deep inside that might come to the surface, she is also brainwashed. She is smart only as far as smart kids in Gilead go. Otherwise, she is just another obedient child, that is learning how to be an obedient "woman" and will do whatever she was told is expected of her.

In The Testaments

Spoiler

She has faint memories of who she was and is, at the beginning of the book, 100% Gilead supporter. Not being trained as a wife, if I recall well, but as an Aunt.

22 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

What areas of the current United States that Gilead control?

Most of the US, except for Alaska and Hawaii, plus a few pockets in the middle, if I recall what is in the book. Not sure about California. It might still be free

[revbfc]

9 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Not just stole it, she wrecked it.

And I doubt car insurance covers damage incurred in a “No man’s land.”  You know: acts of war, and such.

[crashdown]

23 hours ago, Black Knight said:

 I think Lawrence is misjudging Nick's POV a lot here. No, Nick would not like to have both his wife and June in proximity, and I'm guessing he would also probably prefer that his daughter with June stay safely away from Gilead.

100 percent. In fact, I'm convinced that it was Nick who sent the Hannah video to June precisely because he knew that she would give it to the Americans and use it to get Hannah out of the Wife School another way. The last thing that Nick wants is for June and Nichole to come to a place like New Bethlehem, which Nick knows is full of risks and likely to fail. He's not a sitcom character, so the idea of Rose and June being neighbors wouldn't appeal to him. I think Nick is playing a calculated long game that's going to be a big surprise to Lawrence. If Lawrence dies, it might actually be at Nick's hands.

23 hours ago, Black Knight said:

I'll miss Bradley Whitford, whose delivery of "Do you have an irony deficiency?" was priceless. (And in classic narcissist style, that didn't deter Serena one bit from saying essentially the same thing that provoked Lawrence's comment to June later. I liked the contrast between Lawrence and Serena, between actual self-awareness and narcissism, between genuine remorse and self-pity.

Yeah, between "irony deficiency" and "Gilead's gonna Gilead," Whitford gets the gold award for snark. Josh Lyman has aged well! As far as Serena and Lawrence go, I agree that the contrast is a very instructive one. Still, I remain hopeful that Serena will be able to grow a bit beyond her narcissism. She's got to, if she wants June in her life, and she clearly *does* want that. In an interview, Yvonne said that the moment in this episode when Serena looks at June and asks her how she ever managed to live with her was, in Yvonne's opinion, the first time that Serena has shown any glimmer of moving beyond self-pity in her apologies to actually thinking about the other person. I agree with that, and I hope she can keep it up. Apparently there's going to be some big, surprising June/Serena thing at the end of the season, and right now I can't really see how their storylines are going to converge. However it happens, the ball is clearly in June's court to go to Serena, and she'd need a real reason to *want* to do that.

[chaifan]

16 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm confused about the Wheeler's status as well. When Lawrence was visiting Serena he said the Wheelers had a legal right/claim to Noah. WTF?

My take on it was that Serena willingly gave temporary custody of Noah to the Wheelers, so they are in an official foster parent type of status at this point, and are his legal guardians, at least as long as Serena is in custody.  Now, why in the world Serena would willingly give them custody is the real question.  Hell, I'd think she'd even favor giving Noah to June over the Wheelers.  In real life, first, Serena wouldn't have been separated from her child.  Any holding facility of any type, by any gov't agency, has some sort of provisions for new mothers.  It's ridiculous to make us have to believe an immigration holding facility in Canada couldn't accommodate a new mother and brand new baby.  Second, it's doubtful the Canadian gov't would hand over Noah to anyone that wasn't family without them being fully vetted as proper foster parents.  Noah would go to a temporary, pre-approved, court appointed foster family first.  (Or kept at the hospital, given he's a new born.)  Then, maybe, transferred to the Wheeler's, if that's what Serena really wanted.  So the whole thing doesn't make sense, and only is there for plot purposes.  Again, they could come up with some explanation for all of this, that could have been delivered in one line by Lawrence, but THT has really lazy world building writers.  So this is what we get.

I would have liked it more if Mrs. Wheeler wasn't such a bitch, but more of an over-effusive "new mother", going on and on about "her" baby, maybe even renaming him, etc., just like a Wife would do with a Handmaid.  I do love Serena's "irony deficiency".  Ha!

I also don't buy the Canadians as being so anti-US refugee.  I can see there being a small faction acting this way, but as a country?  Nope, don't buy it.  Again, they haven't given us any explanation for it to be wide-spread resentment, and that's on the writers.  Especially in a world with low birth rates - any society is going to want to get people, especially younger people, any way they can. 

Am I the only one who was thinking June was going to get hit by a truck while running happily down the street?  Seriously, I really thought that was going to happen. 

New Bethlehem...  First, I really want to know where that is in real life.  That place is so pretty!  I can sort of understand Lawrence's thinking here, and I'm glad we finally (finally!  5 seasons in!) got some explanation as to why the so-called creator of Gilead hates it so much.  He obviously wasn't the one who came up with the religious fanaticism part of the plan.  He's ok with totally oppressing people in the name of rebuilding civilization, but his plan obviously went a different track than intended.  But building NB to be a wedge to get the Gilead pendulum to swing a little more to the center doesn't make any sense at all.  The biggest problem is, the minute Lawrence dies, NB is done.  That's June's biggest risk in taking him up on his offer.  Nick isn't high up enough to sustain NB on his own. 

Will Tuello just pluck Hannah out of the Wive's school, or will he take any other kid over a certain age?  Did they at least try to identify any other girls who may have parents in Canada?

[circumvent]

32 minutes ago, chaifan said:

In real life, first, Serena wouldn't have been separated from her child.  Any holding facility of any type, by any gov't agency, has some sort of provisions for new mothers. 

I don't think this is necessary true. It should be this way but it is pretty clear this is not a certain thing.

33 minutes ago, chaifan said:

First, I really want to know where that is in real life.  That place is so pretty! 

It is any cookie cutter in suburban United States and I find them ugly and impersonal, no room for uniqueness and identity. Also badly built more often than not. I live in one, not a high end one, and the only reason is because at the time I moved, the only available accessible places where "little boxes on a hilltop".

[Andyourlittledog2]

5 hours ago, chaifan said:

In real life, first, Serena wouldn't have been separated from her child.  Any holding facility of any type, by any gov't agency, has some sort of provisions for new mothers. 

In the US, not so much. Most places separate incarcerated mothers from their babies just fine. Not that I agree with it but it's true.  I don't know how Canada does it so I can't speak to that.

I always got the idea that the Wheelers 'compound' was considered Gilead territory, just like an embassy would be. Is Mr Wheeler the de facto ambassador from Gilead? Otherwise I don't understand their situation at all. I think the authorities had to make a decision on where to place Noah and decided that a Gileadan woman's baby would be fine with a Gileadan family who wanted to care for them and with whom the mother had been living until recently anyway. They were set up to care for an infant already since Mrs Wheeler was practically salivating over the infant. And I don't think Canada particularly cares what Serena wants and probably thinks a baby would be fine there, not in danger or anything. At least that's my take on the decision to turn Noah over to the Wheelers at least temporarily. It's not like there is an unending supply of foster homes out there for Canadian children in need. One less for them to place in a limited supply of homes.

[revbfc]

What are the chances that New Bethlehem is Long Island, Nantucket, or (*ahem*) Martha’s Vineyard?

[RunningMarket]

The immigration protests seemed reminiscent of the recent convoy protests across Canada, with the big trucks and all the honking. I'm guessing that's where they pulled that imagery from.

The Wheelers are straight up creepy, but it's nice to see Serena get some comeuppance. Her asking June questions on how to help herself in that situation was pretty rich.

So Lawrence helped create Gilead because he was trying to save the human race from extinction? Clearly there are woman out there who can still have children, hence Handmaids, so your brilliant idea was to enslave them and make them brood mares? You didn't seem to care that this would only save your specific population from extinction, unless he really though this theory/way of life would catch on across the world.

I think Bradley Whitford is so great in the role, and he's snarky one-liners add some much needed levity at times, but the writers seem hell bent on creating redemption arcs for some characters who are wholly unworthy of it.

[greekmom]

1 hour ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

 And I don't think Canada particularly cares what Serena wants and probably thinks a baby would be fine there, not in danger or anything. At least that's my take on the decision to turn Noah over to the Wheelers at least temporarily. It's not like there is an unending supply of foster homes out there for Canadian children in need. One less for them to place in a limited supply of homes.

There is a baby shortage remember? So of course there would be a ton of excellent Canadian families waiting with open arms to greet a child even for fostering purposes. 

7 minutes ago, RunningMarket said:

So Lawrence helped create Gilead because he was trying to save the human race from extinction? Clearly there are woman out there who can still have children, hence Handmaids, so your brilliant idea was to enslave them and make them brood mares? You didn't seem to care that this would only save your specific population from extinction, unless he really though this theory/way of life would catch on across the world.

I think Bradley Whitford is so great in the role, and he's snarky one-liners add some much needed levity at times, but the writers seem hell bent on creating redemption arcs for some characters who are wholly unworthy of it.

That's why we need a Lawrence centric backstory episode. Was he some professor or what before Gilead? Did he approach the American government warning them of the birth decline and pitching some far out ideas of encouraging all women to procreate as much as possible and taxing women who only have 1 or no kids which the American government said 'no can do' (like China was doing with their 1 child only policy)?  Did some ultra conservative guy then pull Lawrence aside telling him all the right things and that had Lawrence agree to assist the extremists?   I need answers.

[Andyourlittledog2]

29 minutes ago, greekmom said:

There is a baby shortage remember? So of course there would be a ton of excellent Canadian families waiting with open arms to greet a child even for fostering purposes. 

Right!  Forgot what universe I was in for a minute. 

[Marley]

New Bethlehem is so stupid. What idiot would actually trust a place like that. Someone on the show said the eyes of the world would be on New Bethlehem so the ppl there would be safe, like what? Horrible things happen all over the world and most ppl ignore it,

I don’t feel bad for Serena at all. I feel like the shows wants me too but she’s a disgusting monster. The show is too obsessed with her I’m over it.

[circumvent]

2 hours ago, RunningMarket said:

I think Bradley Whitford is so great in the role

I think he is a good actor, not great, but good and that's why I don't like his Lawrence. He already did this in The West Wing. He has acting range, he doesn't need to do the same character over and over. I find it annoying

[Fake Jan Brady]

2 hours ago, RunningMarket said:

The Wheelers are straight up creepy, but it's nice to see Serena get some comeuppance.

I only just realised in this episode that Mr Wheeler was Jimmy Chance in Raising Hope, and now is Raising Noah.

[anna0852]

16 minutes ago, Fake Jan Brady said:

I only just realised in this episode that Mr Wheeler was Jimmy Chance in Raising Hope, and now is Raising Noah.

And that will keep me reading recaps instead of watching. I'm not okay with sweet Jimmy Chance being an evil Gilead wannabe

[Redrum]

56 minutes ago, Marley said:

New Bethlehem is so stupid. What idiot would actually trust a place like that.

I dunno about trust but anyone on the lower rungs of Gilead society would probably highly prefer New Bethlehem to Gilead. No fingers cut off for reading, no forced rapes while also stuck in a home with the bitchy wife who hates you. Probably no Aunts with cattle prods. When your choices are both shitty, why not go with less shitty? 

[Marley]

2 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I dunno about trust but anyone on the lower rungs of Gilead society would probably highly prefer New Bethlehem to Gilead. No fingers cut off for reading, no forced rapes while also stuck in a home with the bitchy wife who hates you. Probably no Aunts with cattle prods. When your choices are both shitty, why not go with less shitty? 

Those ppl aren’t going there tho. I thought it was the Americans that escaped that they are inviting there.

[Andyourlittledog2]

I mean, they must have classes, right?

The Wives School Syllabus

1.   Not A Hair Out Of Place: a bun for every occasion

2.   Do They Come In Slippers? The stiletto heel for a perfect turn of ankle.

3.   But Does It Come In Teal?  The perfect dress.

4.   Are You Going To Eat That? Weight control to achieve that perfect svelte figure.

5.   Speaking Of… When speaking is occasionally necessary, how to modulate your voice to that perfect low quiet pitch.

6.   Busy Hands:  Gardening for every season. And for every hour - day - week - year. There's a lot of gardening, dear.

7.   Get a Grip: The Ceremony

8.   Breathe!  The Virtual Birth Experience.  

Of course, since no woman is allowed to read, it's all done with pictograms, right?

[Redrum]

22 minutes ago, Marley said:

Those ppl aren’t going there tho. I thought it was the Americans that escaped that they are inviting there.

I assumed it was a mix of both - that escapees would get to reunite with family members etc.

Even then - it ain't like life in Canada is such a treat and you can go back and at least be with your kids. With your kids and not as bad as Gilead versus life alone in a foreign country and your kids consigned to Gilead? I could see people choosing it. 

It won't work long term. 

[sashabear21]

They're really leaning into "It was all about fertility!!" this season. Yeah, having a bunch of wealthy fundamentalists extremists overthrow the government and subjugate all the women was all because they were concerned about declining birth rates, uh huh, sure Jan.  

June trusting Lawrence because he's done things to help her with no benefit to himself is incomprehensibly stupid because it still doesn't change the fact that he was the architect for a society that kept her prisoner and ceremonially raped every month, not to mention repeatedly abused with a cattle prod. And now that he realizes how bad of an idea that was he wants to create a new society that will be all hearts, rainbows and ponies! Don't trust him June, this guy is really bad at creating societies! That shouldn't be a 3 strikes scenario, like if you mess up one society that badly you shouldn't get a second chance. 

 I'm really hoping the lack of Samira Wiley this season isn't a writing flaw but that she's unavailable due to working on a show better than this one.  

[aghst]

On 10/26/2022 at 3:48 PM, circumvent said:

Nitpicking as I stat watching this. A few episodes ago we saw June amazed that Mayday existed because they weren't sure they were real. Now she is telling Luke how Lawrence brought Mayday into his house. don't the writers watch the show, read the scripts, think? 

Lawrence: "America is dying. It's an idea that's outlived its usefulness...all of that collapse under the weight of late term capitalism" - prophetic words. More accurately, words that apply to real life, in real time. 

But then later in the episode, when he's talking up New Bethlehem, it sounds a bit like the America which he helped overthrow, so which is it Lawrence?

He didn't like America but wants to have diplomatic relations and trade with America's former allies?

New Bethlehem freedoms go away in a second as soon as Nick or some other commander decide they've had enough of Lawrence and decides to take him out like Putnam was taken out.

Tuello was begging June not to go to NB, because what's left of Americans in exile is dwindling.

But then all of a sudden they have some kind of special forces to attempt a raid in Gilead, which owns most of the arsenal that America used to have?

There's no internal logic here, the show keeps adding things out of the blue, things which were inconsistent of what they depicted before, NML, Serena groupies in Canada with candlelights, Americans go home protesters, the Wheelers and now apparently the exile govt. hasn't all these capabilities.

Unless they bungle it.  I think June and Luke are celebrating a little too early.

[chaifan]

13 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I assumed it was a mix of both - that escapees would get to reunite with family members etc.

Well, that's the part that really doesn't make sense.  When the commanders were all chatting, Lawrence made a comment something like that the regular people of Gilead wouldn't even know about NB, because Gilead controls the media.  But then he says families could be reunited. When talking with June it was definitely in the context of Hannah visiting NB.  Not going there to live.  So how could you have Gilead people visiting NB, then going back to Gilead, not telling anyone about NB, and being okey dokey with the Gilead oppression crap? 

Edited October 28, 2022 by chaifan

[SourK]

This was, by far, my favourite episode of the season. Lots of interesting ideas and interesting dilemmas for the first time in a long time, all framed around the idea of how you live in a world where you accept that Gilead gets to exist and your hopes of dismantling it aren't going to happen.

On 10/26/2022 at 9:47 AM, Black Knight said:

I liked Luke's point about not bringing Nichole into Gilead, and I noticed June didn't argue it. I think Lawrence is misjudging Nick's POV a lot here. No, Nick would not like to have both his wife and June in proximity, and I'm guessing he would also probably prefer that his daughter with June stay safely away from Gilead.

Disagree. I hate Nick, and part of the reason is because I think he never wanted June to be free -- he just wanted her free to be with him. I think bringing her back to Gilead in a way where he's allowed to be with her is exactly the outcome he wants.

On 10/26/2022 at 12:27 PM, Quickbeam said:

Bradley Whitford’s performance was so nuanced. Nice work. 

After years of going "What's his deal? What's his deal?" I feel like I understand Lawrence's deal, now. And I think Bradley Whitford is really good in this role. You want to like him. Even if this is similar to what he does most of the time, he does it really well.

On 10/26/2022 at 1:26 PM, Helena Dax said:

I liked it, but I can't stop feeling that now things are only happening just because. I mean, why, why would the Wheelers get Noah's custody? Perhaps Gilead can ask for him, since his parents are from Gilead, but why would Canada give him to the Wheelers? Has Serena told anyone what's the deal with them? Has June?? To me, this part of the story is absolutely bonkers.

Even when she was pregnant, I didn't get why she wasn't trying harder to report the Wheelers to the authorities. They're not actually in Gilead -- you're not allowed to just take someone hostage and hold them against their will. Also count me as another person who doesn't see why the foster system would ever give this kid to the Wheelers as opposed to normal foster parents.

Also, if she's released from detention, now, there would be a process for her to get her kid back. The Wheelers couldn't just unilaterally decide to keep him.

On 10/26/2022 at 5:29 PM, iMonrey said:

I'm not sure I understand who is behind the "military operation" Tuello is talking about either. He is not Canadian, he represents what's left of the American government. I assume there is some sort of American consulate in Toronto and we've heard the reference to "little America" before. Does "little America" have any kind of standing military left, or are they being backed by the Canadian military for this operation?

I think it's been implied that America still holds part of real-world American territory and they're actively at war with Gilead, still. They're just losing.

4 hours ago, RunningMarket said:

The immigration protests seemed reminiscent of the recent convoy protests across Canada, with the big trucks and all the honking. I'm guessing that's where they pulled that imagery from.

I had the same thought. And I had never considered babies while that was happening, but wow. It would be so terrible if your kids couldn't even sleep because people kept honking all night.

[crashdown]

16 minutes ago, SourK said:

Disagree. I hate Nick, and part of the reason is because I think he never wanted June to be free -- he just wanted her free to be with him. 

Where's the evidence of that? Nick tried to get June out twice, and neither time would he have been able to go with her. He called her selfish after she chose to stay the second time (when she gave Nichole to Emily), because so many people had risked their lives to get her out. When did he ever do otherwise to show how he selfishly wanted to keep June with him?

[HMFan]

On 10/26/2022 at 9:47 AM, Black Knight said:

When June was running joyfully back to the house, I honestly expected she'd arrive to find that it'd been firebombed and Luke and/or Moira were dead. Since that didn't happen, like you I now assume something terrible will happen during the raid.

I liked Luke's point about not bringing Nichole into Gilead, and I noticed June didn't argue it. I think Lawrence is misjudging Nick's POV a lot here. No, Nick would not like to have both his wife and June in proximity, and I'm guessing he would also probably prefer that his daughter with June stay safely away from Gilead.

It's hard to tell, with the real-world references when the show is set in an alternate timeline, what exactly is going on in the THT universe. Like the point about Gorbachev being followed by Putin. Plus Lawrence was using Hong Kong as an example of how New Bethlehem would be, and was arguing that the more modern New Bethlehem would spread into Gilead, but as we know, in the real world that's not how it's played out with his chosen analogy. Has it not been the same way in the THT universe? Or is the point more that the writers are giving foreshadowing about what we should expect to happen with New Bethlehem? Lawrence was going on about his "400-point plan," which combined with the real world references makes me think he's going to be a big death soon. I'll miss Bradley Whitford, whose delivery of "Do you have an irony deficiency?" was priceless. (And in classic narcissist style, that didn't deter Serena one bit from saying essentially the same thing that provoked Lawrence's comment to June later. I liked the contrast between Lawrence and Serena, between actual self-awareness and narcissism, between genuine remorse and self-pity.)

Yeah, Nick could have requested asylum long ago to be near June -- before he even got married to Rose. Nick has a purpose for staying in Gilead -- to tear it down from inside.

June also feels guilty. However, this is the same guilt that many mothers feel today.  They want to work and have importance as professionals, yet have children as well, and leaving them to work causes guilt. When two people choose to have a child, they are equally responsible for that child. If they have the agreement that one will work and the other will not, that's one thing, but to have a governmental organization force who should stay home and who should work, is Gilead.

[HMFan]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Lawrence's comment about Gilead:

I had to use religious nutjobs as a delivery system and I underestimated their depravity, but now it's time and we can loosen up.

[Redrum]

10 hours ago, HMFan said:

I had to use religious nutjobs as a delivery system and I underestimated their depravity, but now it's time and we can loosen up.

Except that it rarely works out that neatly. Which is Lawrence's problem, I suspect. 

[Kel Varnsen]

That was an interesting episode, although I have no idea why June would think New Bethlehem would be a good idea. Even if there was a way to trust Lawrence 100% you know how violent Gilead is, so what happens if he gets a bullet in the head and someone new take over. Or if they decide they don't want that island anymore and bomb it like they bombed he aid workers in Chicago.

I did like getting background about how Lawrence had to make a deal with the religious nutjobs in order to do what he thought he had to do to save the world. I would love to get some more background on that.

On 10/27/2022 at 10:00 PM, SourK said:

Even when she was pregnant, I didn't get why she wasn't trying harder to report the Wheelers to the authorities. They're not actually in Gilead -- you're not allowed to just take someone hostage and hold them against their will. 

Not only that but you would hope that Gilead would be on a list of organizations that Canada sees as terrorists. If you live in Canada it's illegal to provide certain types of support to the Taliban, so hopefully Gilead would be the same, which means it wouldn't be that hard to rat out the Wheelers. Why wouldn't Luke do that?

On 10/27/2022 at 8:22 AM, circumvent said:

She was kidnapped when she was 5 (?) and even though she might have some memories deep inside that might come to the surface, she is also brainwashed. She is smart only as far as smart kids in Gilead go. Otherwise, she is just another obedient child, that is learning how to be an obedient "woman" and will do whatever she was told is expected of her.

It would be interesting to learn more about Hannah. My kids learned to read around 5, so if Hannah just started to learn to read and then stopped, would she still remember how to read?

Edited October 30, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[waterytart]

On 10/26/2022 at 7:39 AM, dmc said:

“Look at what happened to Fred and look at you now”

What did June mean by that?

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, waterytart said:

What did June mean by that?

That she was plotting her revenge the whole time she was a Handmaid in the Waterford house.

[waterytart]

16 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

That she was plotting her revenge the whole time she was a Handmaid in the Waterford house.

Okay, that makes a lot more sense than the direction I was going in. I took it as her making a statement about the difference between what happened to her and Fred, as in he's dead and she's not.

[circumvent]

18 hours ago, HMFan said:

I had to use religious nutjobs as a delivery system and I underestimated their depravity, but now it's time and we can loosen up.

That's the writers using a character that is not in the book to draw a direct link to actual current events - although fitting with the premise of the book. The problem is that history is full of this and it never ends well, reason never prevails against fundamentalism, the reason why things get so divisive and contentious, to say the least

What I don't get it why are they so invested on this plot as the show is ending and they are allegedly setting up for The Testaments

[Redrum]

10 hours ago, circumvent said:

What I don't get it why are they so invested on this plot as the show is ending and they are allegedly setting up for The Testaments

I question whether they are setting up for The Testaments, number one. I know Hulu has optioned it but that may be simply to keep everyone else's hands off. 

If they know the show is ending and it is, then they want to go out with a bang, not a whimper and the lead into The Testaments is a whimper. 

I don't believe this show will end with a whimper next season - I feel like some sort of big bang is being set up. The New Bethlehem storyline is so doomed to failure , I feel like something else must be going on. Perhaps with Nick. 

[chocolatine]

45 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I question whether they are setting up for The Testaments, number one. I know Hulu has optioned it but that may be simply to keep everyone else's hands off. 

If they know the show is ending and it is, then they want to go out with a bang, not a whimper and the lead into The Testaments is a whimper. 

I don't believe this show will end with a whimper next season - I feel like some sort of big bang is being set up. The New Bethlehem storyline is so doomed to failure , I feel like something else must be going on. Perhaps with Nick. 

I agree with this 100%. Shows don't want to be predictable, and if this show tied into The Testaments, it would be nothing but predictable. There are two more episodes left this season and then there's going to be one more season. My speculation (not spoiled in any way) is that Hannah is killed in the raid and the season ends with June's emotional response to it - the grief, but also guilt that if she hadn't pushed so hard to get Hannah out of Gilead, Hannah would still be alive. Then next season will be June on a mission to burn Gilead (including New Bethlehem) to the ground. Then she either dies at the end of the show, or gets some kind of closure from watching the destruction of Gilead, but either way not a happy ending because of everything she's lost.

[crashdown]

3 hours ago, Redrum said:

I question whether they are setting up for The Testaments, number one. I know Hulu has optioned it but that may be simply to keep everyone else's hands off. 

The Testaments has moved from "optioned" to "script development," per Variety. It's happening.

[Redrum]

35 minutes ago, crashdown said:

The Testaments has moved from "optioned" to "script development," per Variety. It's happening.

I don't mean to disparage the concept but any time a script is optioned, its considered to be in development. Look, I don't disagree that Hulu has its hands on the project, I just don't think much will come of it and there's many ways to do that story without letting it interfere with going down an unexpected angle with Handmaid's Tale. I genuinely don't believe Handmaid's Tale is following the book structure at all at this point and without getting too deep into book talk - The Testaments *show* doesn't have to be a true sequel to the Handmaid's Tale show.

3 hours ago, chocolatine said:

My speculation (not spoiled in any way) is that Hannah is killed in the raid and the season ends with June's emotional response to it - the grief, but also guilt that if she hadn't pushed so hard to get Hannah out of Gilead, Hannah would still be alive.

Interesting idea. I was leaning more towards Hannah may refuse to cooperate with the raid and insist on staying in Gilead where she has, in Gilead fashion, her hands on the rungs of the ladder leading to the elite upperclass. In Canada she's just a refugee, in Gilead she could be a highly placed Wife. Someone with no real knowledge of the outside world may not be thrilled to be rescue, they may not consider it a rescue at all, and she's too old to handle it the way they did the Angel Flight, which was basically shut up and deal, kids. 

[circumvent]

14 hours ago, Redrum said:

I question whether they are setting up for The Testaments, number one. I know Hulu has optioned it but that may be simply to keep everyone else's hands off. 

14 hours ago, chocolatine said:

agree with this 100%. Shows don't want to be predictable, and if this show tied into The Testaments, it would be nothing but predictable. There are two more episodes left this season and then there's going to be one more season. My speculation (not spoiled in any way) is that Hannah is killed in the raid and the season ends with June's emotional response to it - the grief, but also guilt that if she hadn't pushed so hard to get Hannah out of Gilead, Hannah would still be alive. Then next season will be June on a mission to burn Gilead (including New Bethlehem) to the ground. Then she either dies at the end of the show, or gets some kind of closure from watching the destruction of Gilead, but either way not a happy ending because of everything she's lost.

If Hulu has the rights to the book, they will try to end the show in a way that it makes some sense if they decide to go ahead with the new show. That means: they will not kill Hannah, since she is one of the two main parts in The Testaments.

Margaret Atwood seems to be on board for a new show, considering that the new book was very inferior to her previous work, something she might have done to link the mess THT show is compared to the book, so I would say they will be ready for the green light. THT is very popular and probably one of the very few money making series for Hulu. The execs will not simply reject another golden egg. I guess it will depend on who they get to stay.

My speculation is that Elizabeth Moss might stay more behind the scenes, maybe a few appearances, flashbacks, and that would be enough for the executives. I have no idea of how she feels about continuing to act, but maybe she will direct more They will likely not divert too much from the book because of the reasons I mentioned above. They will possibly add Noah to the mix and have Serena appear. Maybe Lawrence will also be a big part, there is a character in the book that I think could be adapted to Lawrence. Aunt Lydia stays, and maybe they will find a place for Janine. She seems to be liked by the viewers. 

I would like to see Moira as an actual character because I hate what they did to her. She has shrunk to a nothing, an object that speaks sometimes. 

[crashdown]

13 hours ago, Redrum said:

I don't mean to disparage the concept but any time a script is optioned, its considered to be in development. Look, I don't disagree that Hulu has its hands on the project, I just don't think much will come of it and there's many ways to do that story without letting it interfere with going down an unexpected angle with Handmaid's Tale.

Well, Variety considers "optioned" and "scriptwriting" as distinct phases, and they report when a project moves from one to the other--they, at least, don't think they're one and the same thing. As far as The Testaments goes, per Bruce Miller a writer's room has been convened and scripts are starting to be written. Ann Dowd has been signed to play Aunt Lydia (per an interview with her), so we can be pretty confident that she'll survive the current series. I agree with you that none of that guarantees a definitive pickup, but Hulu has been pretty clear in communicating that The Testaments will replace the The Handmaid's Tale, and all indications are that it'll be in about the same timeframe as we usually wait between seasons (that is, we'll see season one of The Testaments a year after season six of The Handmaid's Tale).

[dmc]

On 10/29/2022 at 11:33 PM, waterytart said:

What did June mean by that?

She meant Fred is dead and Serena lost her child, has no money, citizenship or rights and is a glorified handmaid. 

[Anela]

I don't understand how Luke can say they will never be enough for June, when Hannah is his daughter, too. Even if she wasn't naturally his. 

[Beatriceblake]

On 10/30/2022 at 1:00 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

That was an interesting episode, although I have no idea why June would think New Bethlehem would be a good idea. Even if there was a way to trust Lawrence 100% you know how violent Gilead is, so what happens if he gets a bullet in the head and someone new take over. Or if they decide they don't want that island anymore and bomb it like they bombed he aid workers in Chicago.

I know Luke said he didn't trust Lawrence in the episode but I kept waiting for someone in the show to make this point. Even if you trust Lawrence (which June and Luke absolutely shouldn't, you can't be a little bit totalitarian) it seems like New Bethlehem is only going to be a thing while he's alive and in power. After that time ends it seems like all these enemies of Gilead would be sitting ducks conveniently gathered in one place to either enslave again or murder. I thought Lawrence's offer to Nick to live there and be near both his children was emotionally tone deaf as well, does he not realise how hard that would be on all parties concerned?

I was also curious about Lawrence's statement that he saved the human race because it seems other countries besides the US would have completely collapsed if the fertility crisis was that bad. Even Canada seems relatively normal and the protests against US citizens being there doesn't suggest they are underpopulated.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Beatriceblake

[Tyro49]

It seems Gilead "wives" have absolutely no maternal instincts.