S05.E07: No Man’s Land

[paulvdb]

Quote

June and Serena find themselves in a desperate situation.

Premiere date: October 19, 2022

[chocolatine]

That was a great episode. Loved that we finally got some nuance in terms of June's internal struggle. She wasn't happy that Luke called the authorities on Serena, but she wasn't sad, either.

FWIW, I think Serena is safer in the hands of Canadian authorities than with the Wheelers. Once they figure out who she is, they'll grant her political asylum and reunite her with Noah. (I also wouldn't be surprised if Tuello popped up again to help her.) 

The flashback scenes broke my heart. The dead handmaid wheeled out of the house like a garbage bin after she's "fulfilled her duty" while the wives celebrated in the other room. Janine cradling her belly while thinking that this could easily end up being her fate as well. Also loved the few glimpses of Alma in the flashback. I'm still upset that she was killed before we got to see her backstory.

[Quilt Fairy]

June: "We're going to go to that barn."

Serena: "A barn?"

June: "Maybe they have a manger."

Best line of the season. 

[Fake Jan Brady]

I love how No Man's Land is free of patrols or surveillance, much like how I imagine North and South Korea are completely relaxed about the DMZ.

It's crazy that Yvonne Strahovski is one of the few actresses in the show not to have an Emmy; she's so good at straddling the line between despicable and...something less.

[Baltimore Betty]

6 hours ago, chocolatine said:

That was a great episode. Loved that we finally got some nuance in terms of June's internal struggle. She wasn't happy that Luke called the authorities on Serena, but she wasn't sad, either.

FWIW, I think Serena is safer in the hands of Canadian authorities than with the Wheelers. Once they figure out who she is, they'll grant her political asylum and reunite her with Noah. (I also wouldn't be surprised if Tuello popped up again to help her.) 

The flashback scenes broke my heart. The dead handmaid wheeled out of the house like a garbage bin after she's "fulfilled her duty" while the wives celebrated in the other room. Janine cradling her belly while thinking that this could easily end up being her fate as well. Also loved the few glimpses of Alma in the flashback. I'm still upset that she was killed before we got to see her backstory.

I remember June visiting Serena at the detention center and screaming at her that she hopes Serena knows how it feels to have your baby ripped from your arms, ok mission accomplished.

The Wheelers might be the foster parents of Noah, wouldn't that be something!

The Wife fake pushing during birth always make me think they will get real hemorrhoids.

Did that flashback scene actually happen on the show or was that made up story to show a little bit of the relationship between Serena and June being on the same page of the silliness of the Wives fake birthing and how inane it is?

[dmc]

I just CANNOT…

my level of rage and hate toward Serena is unparalleled

why does this show somehow feel Serena is  different from a Putnam or a Fred I don’t know…she’s not. 

All monsters are nuanced. 

Serena and June do have a bond, it’s called trauma.  June was a prisoner in Serena’s house and dependent on her for safety, food, access to health benefits while repeatedly tortured and raped. Any person in that circumstance feels close to their captor because survival requires you to be.  When that ends, there’s anger, rage and still that closeness because like all feelings it doesn’t immediately dissipate.  But the feeling is based on survival instincts.  
 

The idea that June must repeated help her rapist or feel for her rapist is just A LOT.  

Luke for PRESIDENT. 

I don’t know I going to make it through this season. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by dmc

[Helena Dax]

I love the irony of Canada being the one that takes the baby away from Serena, and not Gilead. Although I don't think it will be for long. However, Serena is far from redeemed and the writers should remember that she's only shown a bit of mercy when it benefited her; she doesn't give a fuck about anyone else's suffering.

[NeenerNeener]

Nice to see Serena admit the Wheelers might be using her as a Handmaid. I wasn't sure if she recognized her situation for what it really was. Being a Gilead "Founder" only counts if you're male, a point that she has been stubbornly refusing to see until recently.

[Redrum]

53 minutes ago, dmc said:

why does this show somehow feel Serena is  different from a Putnam or a Fred I don’t know…she’s not. 

She isn't but she's a woman and while this show insists its feminist, it engages in a lot of misogynistic cliches with all the women. Like for example, sworn enemies bonding over the birth of a child, and Serena feeling a sudden change in philosophy due to having a child. Or like how Canada and the US have routinely ignored interrogating Serena because you know, she's a woman. 

No Man's Land is so ridiculous at this point. Seriously, why did we have Emily crossing at a well guarded and defined boarder when Lawrence could have had her driven to No Man's Land where she could hail an Uber. No need to swim the St. Lawrence in winter with a baby.

They literally just dropped Luke off at the border. June and Serena drove across the border without issue and straight to a Canadian hospital with no issues. 

However I do see where the issue of Noah will get difficult - born in Canada he's a Canadian citizen but born in "No Man's land"? Technically to insist on the border Canada SHOULD insist he's Canadian but I suspect the reason for handing him off to Gilead sorts will revolve around where he was born.

I did appreciate June realizing she didn't need to indulge her savage wish to torture and torment Serena by ripping the baby away personally. 

ETA - Canada actually should have a problem with registered refugees like Luke and June running  across the border but I suspect *their status as refugees* never comes up while Serena is in shit over leaving Gilead space.

Not killing Elias/Ephraim/Whatever will soon bite Serena on the ass I am certain. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Redrum

[dmc]

40 minutes ago, Redrum said:

She isn't but she's a woman and while this show insists its feminist, it engages in a lot of misogynistic cliches with all the women. Like for example, sworn enemies bonding over the birth of a child, and Serena feeling a sudden change in philosophy due to having a child. Or like how Canada and the US have routinely ignored interrogating Serena because you know, she's a woman. 

Yes yes yes. I cannot agree with this strongly enough.

I think this is why so many people have so much trouble with the concept of feminism because there’s so much hypocrisy with regards to it. I support women’s autonomy and choices but a woman monster is still a monster. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by dmc

[chocolatine]

37 minutes ago, Redrum said:

ETA - Canada actually should have a problem with registered refugees like Luke and June running  across the border but I suspect *their status as refugees* never comes up while Serena is in shit over leaving Gilead space.

"Status as refugees" means they're legal temporary residents of Canada and are allowed to cross the border into Canada as often as they wish. And what they do outside of Canada is not Canada's problem.

[Black Knight]

1 hour ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Did that flashback scene actually happen on the show or was that made up story to show a little bit of the relationship between Serena and June being on the same page of the silliness of the Wives fake birthing and how inane it is?

It wasn't a flashback to something we've already seen, no. And it's pure retcon to boot. Janine was pregnant in the flashback; we saw her delivery in the second episode of the series, Birth Day, and Serena was not rolling her eyes at the silliness of the birthing or exchanging conspiratorial bonding glances with June over it. And the idea that Serena was broken up over the death of the handmaid is also pure retcon. We saw in the first episode when Serena and June met for the first time: Serena spoke of the previous handmaid, the one the show doesn't want us to remember anymore, the one who killed herself, as being so brand new it was like trying to train a dog, a not very smart one.

Which is why it's hilarious that Serena peaced outta the Wheelers' house after experiencing a couple of days of a fraction of the condescending part of the treatment that's visited on handmaids. But when Serena was whining to June about how she was like a handmaid now, she's like June, for June not to throw it back in her face with an "except for the endless rapes and torture" retort was ridiculous.

[Redrum]

10 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

"Status as refugees" means they're legal temporary residents of Canada and are allowed to cross the border into Canada as often as they wish. And what they do outside of Canada is not Canada's problem.

In our world sure. In the world where the neighbor to the south is a hostile nation with a closed border and refugees streaming into Canada, I really think Canada might not appreciate refugees running missions based in Canada that cross the border into a hostile nation. I wonder if its ever dawned on people that temporary legal status means that status can be revoked. 

[circumvent]

57 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

However, Serena is far from redeemed and the writers should remember that she's only shown a bit of mercy when it benefited her; she doesn't give a fuck about anyone else's suffering.

1 hour ago, dmc said:

why does this show somehow feel Serena is  different from a Putnam or a Fred I don’t know…she’s not. 

50 minutes ago, Redrum said:

She isn't but she's a woman and while this show insists its feminist, it engages in a lot of misogynistic cliches with all the women.

Two things about those comments:

Contrary to what most might believe, the TV and film industry is quite conservative in the sense of "old values". Marriage, religion, how to raise kids. In this sense, writers still have this division of duties between men and women and it shows in explicit or implicit ways, and it also shows up in ways they don't even perceive or intend. If we start to dissect and deconstruct most shows, we can come up with so much bullshit that they write and that goes unnoticed, even when we might feel that something is not quite right. The most staggering example of this, to me, is The West Wing. Loved when I watched during the original run. A few years later, I couldn't stand it anymore. Since the first run I was sure of Sorkin's misogyny but couldn't really ping it because I was so enthralled by the whole fantasy .

As for Serena's apparently attempt to redemption, I think it is another trap the writers fall into. The actor becomes popular, even loved, then they change the character, ignoring the whole history behind the original idea, even if the idea of Serena in the show is far from the Serena in the book. They are in love with the actor, so they transfer that to the character and humanize it without even bothering to create a coherent narrative for the change

[dmc]

7 minutes ago, circumvent said:

Two things about those comments:

Contrary to what most might believe, the TV and film industry is quite conservative in the sense of "old values". Marriage, religion, how to raise kids. In this sense, writers still have this division of duties between men and women and it shows in explicit or implicit ways, and it also shows up in ways they don't even perceive or intend. If we start to dissect and deconstruct most shows, we can come up with so much bullshit that they write and that goes unnoticed, even when we might feel that something is not quite right. The most staggering example of this, to me, is The West Wing. Loved when I watched during the original run. A few years later, I couldn't stand it anymore. Since the first run I was sure of Sorkin's misogyny but couldn't really ping it because I was so enthralled by the whole fantasy .

As for Serena's apparently attempt to redemption, I think it is another trap the writers fall into. The actor becomes popular, even loved, then they change the character, ignoring the whole history behind the original idea, even if the idea of Serena in the show is far from the Serena in the book. They are in love with the actor, so they transfer that to the character and humanize it without even bothering to create a coherent narrative for the change

Also yes.  Television is conservative even now.  Many people mistake actors who are mostly liberal with Studio execs who are not. A lot of that has to do with the foundation for TV which was funded by advertising.  

Ads would always be pulled from any show that push the envelope. 

And I, too, like the actor.

The foundation for this plot, though it’s just offensive. The other part that really bothers me is that it’s a forced interaction between June and Serena.  It’s not like June is seeking Serena out to come to some sort of closure. The situation is Serena again causing trauma to June so that they can have a forced interaction so June can feel sorry for her.  If this were a male rapist, this storyline would never be happening.

Edited October 19, 2022 by dmc

[crashdown]

17 minutes ago, circumvent said:

As for Serena's apparently attempt to redemption, I think it is another trap the writers fall into. The actor becomes popular, even loved, then they change the character, ignoring the whole history behind the original idea, even if the idea of Serena in the show is far from the Serena in the book. They are in love with the actor, so they transfer that to the character and humanize it without even bothering to create a coherent narrative for the change

Interesting. They certainly DO love the actor, but I think that the humanity of Serena has been baked in from the beginning, at least in flashes. I also think that the fact that Serena and June just *get* each other on a fundamental level has also been baked in, even before they tried to hammer it home with the early-relationship flashback in last night's episode. (That definitely *was* a retcon, and an unnecessary one. However, I do think that indications of their affinity can be seen as early as the season one Mexican delegation episode when June makes the joke about red being her color and Serena clearly appreciates it.) But there's really no point in arguing about any of that: you either see it or you don't.

What IS fun to argue about, however, are the crazy logistics of the episode. How is it that No Man's Land suddenly has roads? And barns with hay and blankets? How could June and Serena drive so easily across the border and into Toronto (and Toronto is about 100 miles from the nearest border, despite what the show wants to pretend) in a car with a busted windshield? How did they not run out of gas? And how long has it been since June has EATEN anything? So many questions!

[dmc]

29 minutes ago, crashdown said:

Interesting. They certainly DO love the actor, but I think that the humanity of Serena has been baked in from the beginning, at least in flashes. I also think that the fact that Serena and June just *get* each other on a fundamental level has also been baked in, even before they tried to hammer it home with the early-relationship flashback in last night's episode. (That definitely *was* a retcon, and an unnecessary one. However, I do think that indications of their affinity can be seen as early as the season one Mexican delegation episode when June makes the joke about red being her color and Serena clearly appreciates it.) But there's really no point in arguing about any of that: you either see it or you don't.

Yes but I think the question is why it’s baked in and not whether you see it…it’s fairly heavy handed to see I think, the humanity of the Serena’s character is fine because all characters have some sort of humanity. I don’t think her being a three-dimensional character is a criticism.
 

But why does June have to get on with her rapist? Why is it necessary for her rapist to think she’s funny? If the show had cultivated, the same relationship between June and Fred would we be be OK with it?  I agree it’s there, but it still makes me livid that it is.

I’m choosing to forget about the logistics of No Man’s Land because I know it doesn’t make sense
 

Edited October 19, 2022 by dmc

[crashdown]

4 minutes ago, dmc said:

But why does June have to get on with her rapist? Why is it necessary for her rapist to think she’s funny?

Good questions. I think, depending on how you're wired, you either see "rapist" and "abuser" as a non-starter for anything else, or you don't. I personally don't; you personally do. It's just not an arguable point, because it seems to me (after reading a LOT of fan reaction to Serena) that it really is a visceral, individual reaction. I don't think that either way to look at is more right; they're just different.

Edited October 19, 2022 by crashdown

[dmc]

7 minutes ago, crashdown said:

Good questions. I think, depending on how you're wired, you either see "rapist" and "abuser" as a non-starter for anything else, or you don't. I personally don't; you personally do. It's just not an arguable point, because it seems to me (after reading a LOT of fan reaction to Serena) that it really is a visceral, individual reaction. I don't think that either way to look at is more right; they're just different.

I don’t think we’re arguing and there’s no maliciousness on my part. I’m interested in your perspective. I don’t think we have to agree. I like hearing other people’s points of view.

Edited October 19, 2022 by dmc

[circumvent]

42 minutes ago, crashdown said:

Interesting. They certainly DO love the actor, but I think that the humanity of Serena has been baked in from the beginning, at least in flashes. I also think that the fact that Serena and June just *get* each other on a fundamental level has also been baked in, even before they tried to hammer it home with the early-relationship flashback in last night's episode. (That definitely *was* a retcon, and an unnecessary one. However, I do think that indications of their affinity can be seen as early as the season one Mexican delegation episode when June makes the joke about red being her color and Serena clearly appreciates it.) But there's really no point in arguing about any of that: you either see it or you don't.

You might be right, and I might just talking through my annoyance with everything these writers want us to swallow. Besides, I haven't watched the episode yet, I am just reacting to the comments. I never liked that they so completely changed who Serena is in the book to this Serena and they have been inconsistent with the writing even if your theory makes sense. They should at least follow your line with the character because the back and forth with those two are just boring at this point (and to a point far behind in season 3 or so)

[crashdown]

Just now, dmc said:

I don’t think we’re arguing and there’s no maliciousness on my part. I’m interested in your perspective. 

OK, I'll try. I think that human experience and human bonds are glorious in their complexity, and I don't like dismissive reductions like "trauma bond" or "Stockholm syndrome" (Interesting aside--Stockholm syndrome might not even exist; the history behind the use of the term is fascinating. Google "Stockholm syndrome myth" and you'll find some great stuff).  I think bonds are real and love is real, however they come about. It's interesting, for instance, that nobody dismisses maternal love as something not real because it's grounded in hormones and survival instinct.

A lot of people look at the evil things that Serena has done to June as if they were some sort of quantity: Serena has dumped 10 gigawatts of evil into June and *maybe* shown five watts of caring about her, so of course there's no way that those five watts can matter at all in the grand scheme of things. I see those five watts of caring as more qualitative than quantitative: even though they're weak and flickering, they have the ability to make a real difference to how June and Serena feel about each other. They don't cancel out the 10 gigawatts, but they make the picture more complex.

With Serena and June, I've seen a story about two women who are very much alike in many ways and very different in others, who have an instinctive understanding of each other, who actually can be more honest with each other than they can be with any other character. That's compelling to me. I don't think that there's any doubt that they care about each other and try to protect each other, and that was true even when June was seriously thinking that she wanted to kill Serena (which, of course, she never really did, just as Serena didn't want June to die in No Man's Land when she heard that she'd been captured by Wheeler). I think it's very possible (and yeah, I find it kind of beautiful even though many others would find it appalling) that, given their underlying bond, Serena and June can feel some sort of love toward one another even though it's obviously not the ONLY thing that they feel.

I'm not at all sure that June will ever be able to be "friends" with Serena, if that word even makes sense in this context. But I do think that allowing the full complexity of what she feels about Serena (the love, the hate, and the in between) to come to the surface will only help June heal, and that's really the most important thing for her in the end. As far as Serena goes, I think "redemption" is a silly concept with something like this--there's no TV God giving points and taking demerits. Rather, I think that Serena is capable of growth, and June is giving her the chance to grow and learn by saving her life and not letting her cop out as a martyr: essentially, she's saying that she has faith that Serena can be better. The last time June had faith in Serena (when she asked Serena to give up Nichole), Serena ultimately failed her. I hope this time that faith isn't misplaced, but only time will tell.

[dmc]

6 minutes ago, crashdown said:

OK, I'll try. I think that human experience and human bonds are glorious in their complexity, and I don't like dismissive reductions like "trauma bond" or "Stockholm syndrome" (Interesting aside--Stockholm syndrome might not even exist; the history behind the use of the term is fascinating. Google "Stockholm syndrome myth" and you'll find some great stuff).  I think bonds are real and love is real, however they come about. It's interesting, for instance, that nobody dismisses maternal love as something not real because it's grounded in hormones and survival instinct.

A lot of people look at the evil things that Serena has done to June as if they were some sort of quantity: Serena has dumped 10 gigawatts of evil into June and *maybe* shown five watts of caring about her, so of course there's no way that those five watts can matter at all in the grand scheme of things. I see those five watts of caring as more qualitative than quantitative: even though they're weak and flickering, they have the ability to make a real difference to how June and Serena feel about each other. They don't cancel out the 10 gigawatts, but they make the picture more complex.

With Serena and June, I've seen a story about two women who are very much alike in many ways and very different in others, who have an instinctive understanding of each other, who actually can be more honest with each other than they can be with any other character. That's compelling to me. I don't think that there's any doubt that they care about each other and try to protect each other, and that was true even when June was seriously thinking that she wanted to kill Serena (which, of course, she never really did, just as Serena didn't want June to die in No Man's Land when she heard that she'd been captured by Wheeler). I think it's very possible (and yeah, I find it kind of beautiful even though many others would find it appalling) that, given their underlying bond, Serena and June can feel some sort of love toward one another even though it's obviously not the ONLY thing that they feel.

I'm not at all sure that June will ever be able to be "friends" with Serena, if that word even makes sense in this context. But I do think that allowing the full complexity of what she feels about Serena (the love, the hate, and the in between) to come to the surface will only help June heal, and that's really the most important thing for her in the end. As far as Serena goes, I think "redemption" is a silly concept with something like this--there's no TV God giving points and taking demerits. Rather, I think that Serena is capable of growth, and June is giving her the chance to grow and learn by saving her life and not letting her cop out as a martyr: essentially, she's saying that she has faith that Serena can be better. The last time June had faith in Serena (when she asked Serena to give up Nichole), Serena ultimately failed her. I hope this time that faith isn't misplaced, but only time will tell.

Thank you.  I actually see where you’re coming from.  I think I’ve always been the kind of person that when someone wrongs me thinks about it in terms of black and white.  I absolutely agree that June is not this kind of person and she’s looking at the situation with a lot more complexity than I would.

Edited October 19, 2022 by dmc

[Cinnabon]

13 hours ago, chocolatine said:

That was a great episode. Loved that we finally got some nuance in terms of June's internal struggle. She wasn't happy that Luke called the authorities on Serena, but she wasn't sad, either.

FWIW, I think Serena is safer in the hands of Canadian authorities than with the Wheelers. Once they figure out who she is, they'll grant her political asylum and reunite her with Noah. (I also wouldn't be surprised if Tuello popped up again to help her.) 

The flashback scenes broke my heart. The dead handmaid wheeled out of the house like a garbage bin after she's "fulfilled her duty" while the wives celebrated in the other room. Janine cradling her belly while thinking that this could easily end up being her fate as well. Also loved the few glimpses of Alma in the flashback. I'm still upset that she was killed before we got to see her backstory.

Why would they grant a terrorist asylum?

[chocolatine]

8 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Why would they grant a terrorist asylum?

Because Serena has already positioned herself as a victim of Gilead to the extent that the ICC dropped their charges against her. And Tuello had told her earlier she could request asylum; that offer most likely still stands.

4 hours ago, Redrum said:

In our world sure. In the world where the neighbor to the south is a hostile nation with a closed border and refugees streaming into Canada, I really think Canada might not appreciate refugees running missions based in Canada that cross the border into a hostile nation. I wonder if its ever dawned on people that temporary legal status means that status can be revoked. 

And we already know that Canada didn't care about June killing Fred in NML, so it wouldn't make sense for them to start caring unless she does something so high-profile that draws national scrutiny. And yes, almost every expat is well aware that a temporary (and even permanent) residence permit can be revoked. Nothing's guaranteed unless you become a citizen.

[Redrum]

3 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Why would they grant a terrorist asylum?

Because in the grand scheme of things, they need her on their side more than they need to punish her. Look up Operation Paperclip for an example. If the Canadiens aren't having an issue with legal temporary refugees crossing the border to commit espionage, foment rebellion and plot a kidnapping, why would anything Serena's done be an issue? I mean, they kinda sorta were ok with her before this anyway.

Now, personally I doubt she'll be offered asylum... But Fred, who was a much greater terrorist, got a get out of jail free card. 

[crashdown]

2 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Now, personally I doubt she'll be offered asylum... But Fred, who was a much greater terrorist, got a get out of jail free card. 

I don't think Serena wants asylum. I don't think she knows WHAT she wants. She is completely bereft right now--what she told June when she asked June to take Noah was genuinely true. She has nowhere, and she has nobody. (Right now, June is actually her best friend, which is a pretty terrifying thought.) She feels out of place in Canada, with its crazy habits of giving people antibiotics to keep away sepsis, and she can't go back to Gilead. (I doubt that she even *wants* Gilead now; I think this experience with June, and the fact that she finally said out loud that she (as well as Fred) did terrible things, is starting to make her rethink.) New Bethlehem is her only possibility, and it's just a concept right now and one unlikely to work without bloodshed. I just don't have a guess about where Serena is going to land. She's a survivor, but she's really run out of cards. Her "I just want to go home" to June from her hospital bed was really very sad.

[Maurina]

Within the first 10 minutes of the show I knew exactly where it was going.  Thankfully since it's Hulu I can hit the "10 seconds ahead" through most of it. Between the opening episode of House of the Dragon and nearly every other depiction of childbirth lately, I just can't. I've miscarried multiple times, with my first kid I was in labor for almost two days only to have a terrifying emergency c-section and almost died, I've had a scheduled c-section that was certainly better than the first one but still, it's frightening and painful.

I cannot STAND to see this stuff onscreen anymore.

[Straycat80]

Great episode. One question about the flashback scene: and I know this is nit picky but, Janine was pregnant but hadn’t she already lost her eye and was wearing an eye patch by then? 

[crashdown]

14 minutes ago, Straycat80 said:

One question about the flashback scene: and I know this is nit picky but, Janine was pregnant but hadn’t she already lost her eye and was wearing an eye patch by then? 

She didn't have the eye in this flashback--it was sewn shut. The patch came somewhat later. For awhile, she just went around with the stitched-up eye.

Edited October 19, 2022 by crashdown

[chocolatine]

11 minutes ago, Straycat80 said:

Great episode. One question about the flashback scene: and I know this is nit picky but, Janine was pregnant but hadn’t she already lost her eye and was wearing an eye patch by then? 

8 minutes ago, crashdown said:

She didn't have the eye in this flashback--it was sewn shut. The patch came somewhat later. For awhile, so just went around with the stitched-up eye.

Yes, the eye patch came later since it wasn't part of the "regulation" handmaid uniform. Aunt Lydia had it made especially for Janine as a token of affection (never mind that she was the one who made Janine lose the eye in the first place).

[kitkat343]

2 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Why would they grant a terrorist asylum?

As others have noted, she may have important information left.  If she has truly realized the mistakes of Gilead, then she would be valuable as pr against their society.  And the fact that her husband stood by and watched as the Commanders decided to cut off her pinkie and spanked her in front of others makes a compelling argument for her as a victim of domestic violence (she participated in the design of the society and in many ways wasn't a victim, but I think if she were willing to cry on camera she would be able to  portray herself as having done terrible things because of her husband).  Serena as a victim isn't true - her hitting Rita after the baby shower when Rita was just trying to help her was an example of the monstrous aspect of her personality, but I think she could at least make a decent case for it.

Edited October 19, 2022 by kitkat343

[SourK]

Serena: "June, you're like an angel. 🙏 One of those fucked-up Old Testament angels that smites everyone and drinks blood."

Here's my thing: people changing their minds about what their motivations are over and over again doesn't create conflict an tension. There was a time in the past when the June/Serena alliance was interesting, but that story reached its climax when Serena gave Nichole to June and let her escape so they could have a better life. Everything after that has just been needlessly rehashing the same points in their relationship -- like backing your car out of a ditch just so you can drive into the ditch again.

This season has been the worst, IMO, in that it feels like someone just decided they need to be mortal enemies again so that they could build to this unearned moment where they (again) learn to be friends.

To me, it didn't feel dramatic or authentic -- it just felt like, "Okay, cool. When Serena makes that face and pretends to be helpless, it works on women, too."

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

Yes, the eye patch came later since it wasn't part of the "regulation" handmaid uniform. Aunt Lydia had it made especially for Janine as a token of affection (never mind that she was the one who made Janine lose the eye in the first place).

Honestly, that's a pretty good summary of how Lydia's affection works. She plucks out your eye and then gives you an eye patch because you are her favourite. (Also, I had totally forgotten that they used to do that makeup on the actor every episode back in the day).

[circumvent]

1 hour ago, Straycat80 said:

Great episode. One question about the flashback scene: and I know this is nit picky but, Janine was pregnant but hadn’t she already lost her eye and was wearing an eye patch by then? 

1 hour ago, crashdown said:

She didn't have the eye in this flashback--it was sewn shut. The patch came somewhat later. For awhile, she just went around with the stitched-up eye.

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

Yes, the eye patch came later since it wasn't part of the "regulation" handmaid uniform. Aunt Lydia had it made especially for Janine as a token of affection (never mind that she was the one who made Janine lose the eye in the first place).

That flashback scene was a big continuity blunder. Serena introduced June as her "new handmaid", implying she had just "gotten" June, so that happened before we get to know Offred in the first season. Janine lost her eye much later. In that flashback, Janine still have both eyes.  The eye-rolling bond between Serena and June was a huge stretch. Never happened, wouldn't have happened at that time, June was submissive and only defiant in her thoughts. She was't yet taking any chances. The production team fucked up big time on the episode, I can't believe they didn't leave it on the editing room floor. 

[Fake Jan Brady]

7 minutes ago, circumvent said:

That flashback scene was a big continuity blunder. Serena introduced June as her "new handmaid", implying she had just "gotten" June, so that happened before we get to know Offred in the first season. Janine lost her eye much later. In that flashback, Janine still have both eyes.  The eye-rolling bond between Serena and June was a huge stretch. Never happened, wouldn't have happened at that time, June was submissive and only defiant in her thoughts. She was't yet taking any chances. The production team fucked up big time on the episode, I can't believe they didn't leave it on the editing room floor. 

Janine had her eye taken at the Red Centre, before they were assigned.

[Trillian]

8 hours ago, Redrum said:

No Man's Land is so ridiculous at this point. Seriously, why did we have Emily crossing at a well guarded and defined boarder when Lawrence could have had her driven to No Man's Land where she could hail an Uber. No need to swim the St. Lawrence in winter with a baby.

I’ve kinda zoned out over No Man’s Land for several episodes now. Makes no sense when there’s there’s a defined water border.  I tend to go all “lalala” whenever it’s mentioned. Yes, I am hate watching at this  point. 

this episode actually had me laughing when a woman was separated from her baby.  I’d like to think I’d be a June, who would help another woman in childbirth even if that woman is an enemy.  But after that?  I did find that -evilly- satisfying.  

[circumvent]

If Serena had an infection and nursed the baby, then that baby is sick. It happened to me when I was born. My mother had cysts that got infected and the doctors didn't care, so she was nursing me and we both got very sick, at death's door. The fact we both survived was a case study at the time.

31 minutes ago, Fake Jan Brady said:

Janine had her eye taken at the Red Centre, before they were assigned.

So we saw that in flashbacks too? I didn't watch most of some of the seasons so I am not really sure anymore but still think the scene was terribly done with the Serena/June kinship. 

[chocolatine]

43 minutes ago, Fake Jan Brady said:

Janine had her eye taken at the Red Centre, before they were assigned.

10 minutes ago, circumvent said:

So we saw that in flashbacks too?

We saw that in the S1 flashbacks. S1 "real time" was after this episode's flashback, but it had flashbacks to June's life pre-Gilead, her capture, and her time at the Red Center.

[Redrum]

18 minutes ago, circumvent said:

So we saw that in flashbacks too? I didn't watch most of some of the seasons so I am not really sure anymore but still think the scenecommunication  was terribly done with the Serena/June kinship. 

Yeah, Janine losing her eye was shown in flash back from season one. Agree that they didn't have the kinship to do the eye communication at that point.

[madpsych78]

When did Janine give birth in Season 1 - was it in episode 2? Because if so, then it would be believable that the flashbacks in this episode were before Season 1, episode 1. Especially if Janine's losing her eye was a flashback within Season 1.

ETA: Because in the flashback shown here, it was very clear that Janine lost her eye AND that she was pregnant, probably second if not beginning of third trimester.

Edited October 20, 2022 by madpsych78

[HMFan]

On 10/19/2022 at 2:29 AM, Quilt Fairy said:

June: "We're going to go to that barn."

Serena: "A barn?"

June: "Maybe they have a manger."

Best line of the season. 

I caught that too.  Oh, hey, miss religious...how do you think Jesus was born.

[HMFan]

On 10/19/2022 at 9:39 AM, dmc said:

I just CANNOT…

my level of rage and hate toward Serena is unparalleled

why does this show somehow feel Serena is  different from a Putnam or a Fred I don’t know…she’s not. 

All monsters are nuanced. 

Serena and June do have a bond, it’s called trauma.  June was a prisoner in Serena’s house and dependent on her for safety, food, access to health benefits while repeatedly tortured and raped. Any person in that circumstance feels close to their captor because survival requires you to be.  When that ends, there’s anger, rage and still that closeness because like all feelings it doesn’t immediately dissipate.  But the feeling is based on survival instincts.  
 

The idea that June must repeated help her rapist or feel for her rapist is just A LOT.  

Luke for PRESIDENT. 

I don’t know I going to make it through this season. 

Yes, we do think Serena is a manipulative C$$T but, she too, was a prisoner in Gilead. All women are. Serena, like June likely have a bunch of stockholm syndrome. However, as we know, Serena's mother is also a widow and has been allowed to run her own household and excepted from Gilead's normal treatment because of Serena's status as Mrs. Waterford. So, was / is Serena worried about how her mother will be treated since her departure?  Likely.

It seems that Gilead makes people do things in order to create and/or utilize a situation in which their lives become bearable.  Was Serena ever happy not reading, not contributing, not having a purpose?  No. Did she really want someone else's child, or truly agree with the handmaid ideal? No. Nor did Ms. Putnam. Remember, this was something contrived by the creators of Gilead in the back of a vehicle. Perhaps no one who supported the Gilead concept could truly see how far men of power would become inflated and want more power.

Serena was frustrated that her whole life is controlled by others, and envious of a person she considered less than her, could be worthy of a baby of their own, and she couldn't.

Note in the previous episode, Serena was not on board initially with the whole handmaid idea, nor did she really want someone else's child. She could have picked any of the children in the kiddie jail, but instead had to suck it up and take a handmaid so they would have children, family, and rise in power.  Power is the only thing in Gilead that protects anyone.

I would also proffer that everyone coming from and within the Gilead system has some form of Stockholm Syndrome, and being faced with true freedom in Canada is likely a very traumatic thought and adjustment.

June has likely realized that killing Serena would be too good for Serena. Serena is likely happy June punished Fred. Serena has actually come to the realization that there is no place in Gilead for her or any woman no matter how she tries to sell it, and that she screwed up when she turned down help from Canada.

[Black Knight]

Something I have been thinking about lately, that this episode has really helped clarify my thinking on: It's interesting, and not in a good way, that a show about the systematic rape, torture, and psychological abuse of women in a dystopian nation is so afraid of female rage that it has made that the central problem in a universe where if ever there was reason for women to be angry, it's Gilead.

Of course eternal unrelenting rage isn't a good thing, and can be poisonous, and can destroy one's own life. I would never argue otherwise. But not only did they essentially set up a strawman with June, they pretty much have told us that any of the former handmaids or Jezebel workers or Marthas who don't move on right away from their anger, even if it's less than June's, are also wrong. Moira has been shown essentially trying to stifle other women in this regard, that her way is the way. And the thing is, on a smarter show, there would be a lot to unpack in putting a Black woman in that particular role, because Black women often feel they cannot show anger for fear of being cast as The Angry Black Woman, and it would bring up questions about whether Moira has so internalized that mindset that she perpetuates it with other women. This is not that show, alas. Moira is simply the character who's usually right about things, and so because this show's writers are so worried about female rage, they've given that soapbox to her.

And in this episode, we now have the utter whiplash of June, poisonously angry June, turning on an absolute dime and spouting nonsense about "it's God's will" that Serena - a borderline sociopathic, narcissistic woman, who gleefully celebrated murder and instigated and participated in rape, whose principal problem with Gilead is that it dared treat her the same way that she was totally fine with Gilead treating all other women - raise her baby. Because borderline sociopathic, narcissistic people make great parents. June's not allowed to make the entirely reasonable point that Serena still doesn't fucking know what it is like to be a handmaid. We have some weird narrative that it's really all Fred's fault and now that he's gone, Serena will be a better person. Never mind that we saw Serena was a horrible person well before Gilead, when Fred was worshipping at her feet.

A final point to tie into the issues of female rage and how to deal with it before it destroys your life: It's really hard to have healing with no accountability. This is where the arguments about moving away from retributive justice break down: Gilead is still a functioning entity that continues to oppress women horribly. There is still an ongoing war between Gilead and America, in which some Americans are being held captive or fighting or dying, while other Americans are refugees in other lands. Many Americans have lost their children or other loved ones to Gilead, either in their oppressive systems or just plain being murdered. And if we want to talk about Serena specifically, she's never faced any accountability for her actions, other than being stuck for a little while in nice quarters where she could do yoga in a nice yoga outfit and kickstart a cult who is happy to spread the sickness of Gilead further. June did get to tell Serena that she didn't care about her apology, but the tone was off. She wasn't angry about it. Moss chose to play it in a practically beatific way. I know from personal experience that it's possible to get to a point where you don't care about someone's apology but you aren't angry about it, but I also know that it takes quite a while to reach that point. It doesn't happen when you've been poisonously angry right up to that second, when large parts of the situation that have made you so angry are still ongoing (June's daughter still in Gilead, Gilead itself continuing to exist and working to spread its sickness to the formerly safe country that took in refugees from Gilead), and after one experience. It is a process, for which there isn't a fast-forward button.

This show has unfortunately reached a place where there is little emotional or psychological truth left in the writing, with this episode perhaps being the nadir. THT has never been good at the world-building aspect of storytelling, but now that same laziness and willingness to write whatever nonsense it takes to get to the point they want to be has now infected what the show's strengths once were. I'm more than ready to make the jump to the sequel show and see if that goes any better.

[Readingallnight]

Quote

Something I have been thinking about lately, that this episode has really helped clarify my thinking on: It's interesting, and not in a good way, that a show about the systematic rape, torture, and psychological abuse of women in a dystopian nation is so afraid of female rage that it has made that the central problem in a universe where if ever there was reason for women to be angry, it's Gilead.

I think forgiveness has become a fetish, at least in the US, and especially for women.  Women who are sexually abused are encouraged to forgive, early and publicly, even if the abuser has not shown any remorse, and any time the abuser shows the smallest token of remorse with the barest of apologies the pressure to forgive gets even greater.  Women who are brave enough to come forward with stories of abuse are almost always asked if they've forgiven the abuser.  And there is great pressure to forgive and you hear all the time you can't heal until you forgive.  Maybe that's true but it seems like society has decided that women get abused, forgiveness = healing, so they forgive their abusers, so society forgives the abusers and puts them right back into the position they were in before the abuse.  We are all supposed to move on, not worry about the abuse being repeated, and repercussions are not needed.  They were forgiven!  It's over! Nothing to see here, move on, and if you are still angry that's your problem, not the abuser's problem.  Anger is YOUR failing.  

[aghst]

Well some things happened this episode.  Serena gave birth, they got out of NML and back to Canada, where June found Luke was returned unharmed.

Sure a long flashback about how Gilead values the lives of babies over the lives of mothers.  Not surprising, could have been a sharp political statement.

June and Serena bickering.  June leaving and then coming back, Serena saying "you came back!"

Yeah a little dramatic, handcuffing Serena to her hospital bed and taking the child from her.

More closeups of June's face as she debated whether to help Serena or bail and as she thought about what happened back in Gilead.

More things could have happened but they had to have time for those closeups of her scowling.

[madpsych78]

2 hours ago, Black Knight said:

And in this episode, we now have the utter whiplash of June, poisonously angry June, turning on an absolute dime and spouting nonsense about "it's God's will" that Serena - a borderline sociopathic, narcissistic woman, who gleefully celebrated murder and instigated and participated in rape, whose principal problem with Gilead is that it dared treat her the same way that she was totally fine with Gilead treating all other women - raise her baby. Because borderline sociopathic, narcissistic people make great parents. June's not allowed to make the entirely reasonable point that Serena still doesn't fucking know what it is like to be a handmaid. We have some weird narrative that it's really all Fred's fault and now that he's gone, Serena will be a better person. Never mind that we saw Serena was a horrible person well before Gilead, when Fred was worshipping at her feet.

My issue with this episode's flashback was not the continuity but that I felt like it retconned Serena's role in Gilead as well as the whole ceremony/handmaid process. I mean, I can buy that Serena and Naomi were not excited about getting handmaids as shown in a previous episode; that was not the issue. I can also buy that Serena was not complicit in the development of the Ceremony as that was put forth by many men/Commanders. But Serena just came off as a Wife who looked out of place with the other Wives, when she was the one who was instrumental in the development of many aspects of Gilead. Like she should have been looking like she was the leader of the Wives and that just didn't come off that way in the flashback. 

And great reminder that initially it was Serena who was leading the way and Fred was following her. There is no doubt that Serena is infinitely smarter than Fred ever was. 

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

Yeah a little dramatic, handcuffing Serena to her hospital bed and taking the child from her.

Seems appropriate for a terrorist. 🤷‍♀️

[Redrum]

Is ahe a terrorist in Canada? I'm honestly unclear, mostly sue to the poor writing, what Serena was arrested for.... illegal border crossing?

[circumvent]

4 hours ago, Readingallnight said:

I think forgiveness has become a fetish, at least in the US, and especially for women.  Women who are sexually abused are encouraged to forgive, early and publicly, even if the abuser has not shown any remorse, and any time the abuser shows the smallest token of remorse with the barest of apologies the pressure to forgive gets even greater.  Women who are brave enough to come forward with stories of abuse are almost always asked if they've forgiven the abuser.  And there is great pressure to forgive and you hear all the time you can't heal until you forgive.  Maybe that's true but it seems like society has decided that women get abused, forgiveness = healing, so they forgive their abusers, so society forgives the abusers and puts them right back into the position they were in before the abuse.  We are all supposed to move on, not worry about the abuse being repeated, and repercussions are not needed.  They were forgiven!  It's over! Nothing to see here, move on, and if you are still angry that's your problem, not the abuser's problem.  Anger is YOUR failing.  

This is an interesting angle. I think you make a good point. The world is still geared towards men, and women need to prove themselves to have a share of it, be it on the capitalistic society, or culturally, or both. So it is for the benefit of the status quo, that the narrative changes when women are victims. They have to become the archetype of femininity, they have to be nurturing and therefore forgiving. Men try to justify the abusers by making them a victim of something exterior, some game, some friendship, some momentarily lack of judgement. It is never who they are. 

6 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Is ahe a terrorist in Canada? I'm honestly unclear, mostly sue to the poor writing, what Serena was arrested for.... illegal border crossing?

I believe so. I don't know how immigrants were treated in less fascistic times, if they used to be handcuffed, but I would think that a woman that just had a baby and is not well would not be handcuffed to the bed, but they would have someone at the hospital to take her away once she is better. But I don't really know

[Cinnabon]

57 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Is ahe a terrorist in Canada? I'm honestly unclear, mostly sue to the poor writing, what Serena was arrested for.... illegal border crossing?

Does it matter? Is a terrorist in one country ever welcome in another??

[tennisgurl]

I love that they played that super dramatic "this is so tragic" music as Serena realizes that she is going to have her baby taken away, while I was right there with Luke feeling some real schadenfreude at Serena having to feel just a tiny bit of the pain that so many other innocent woman had to feel in the horrible world that she created in Gilead. Its really to Yvonne's credit that I ever feel anything for Serena at this point, we seem to hit the same story beats with her over and over again, especially with her relationship with June. She's a smug monster, she feels remorse when she realizes that this is negatively affecting her, she realizes that she's a part of something evil, she tries to grab for power, she and June are enemies, they're awkward allies, they hate each other, rinse and repeat. Its really a problem with the show in general, its been going for so long but refuses to really shake things up (besides June finally getting to Canada) that it feels repetitive. Of course June, Luke, and Serena will all survive, no matter how implausible it is. 

The best thing that can happen to baby Noah is that he is kept far away from Serena, which even she seems to realize. Of course, June and Luke's parenting leaves something to be desired. Remind me again who was watching Nicole while they ran off to no mans land to get information that they already knew?

Why is the no mans land between two hostile countries so deserted? 

The flashbacks to June's Handmaid days was at least affecting, that poor dead Handmaid, taken out with the trash after she's served her purpose while the wives all fawn over the baby they stole.