S09.E22: Law & Order

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Main topic: Law & Order TV franchise

Also: President of Chile and the tiniest Superman on a bike; the queen's death; Liz Truss; Sean Hannity does the opposite of an ad for Walmart 

Original air date 2022.09.11 

[Annber03]

I've seen the occasional episode of "Law & Order: SVU" and "Law & Order: Criminal Intent", but that's about it. And yeah, in terms of drama and storytelling they're pretty interesting, but in terms of real world application...John pretty well laid out where the issue comes in. It's insane that any police force would actually take its cue from a TV show instead of just, y'know, doing their job the way they're supposed to, but this is the world we apparently live in, I guess...:/. 

But yeah, I know people have talked about the "CSI effect" in terms of how that show influenced people who served on juries, expecting all this detailed evidence and whatnot on every single case. So it's no surprise the same issue comes up with cop shows, too.

(And that Roger Ailes clip. Wow. Just. WOW.)

As for the UK, good lord, that game show style bit. That's just...YIKES. What the hell is with this dystopian world we're living in nowadays? 

I understand the Queen's death being a huge deal for the UK and Europe as a whole, obviously, and I can understand world leaders in general offering their thoughts on her passing, too, of course. But yeah, the way some here in the States are obsessed with this is...weird. Like, you guys realize we broke away from the monarchy for a reason, right? We had a big war about it over 200 years ago and everything? 

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

But yeah, the way some here in the States are obsessed with this is...weird. Like, you guys realize we broke away from the monarchy for a reason, right? We had a big war about it over 200 years ago and everything? 

A case of Rebellion Remorse??? 

[peeayebee]

12 hours ago, Annber03 said:

But yeah, the way some here in the States are obsessed with this is...weird. Like, you guys realize we broke away from the monarchy for a reason, right? We had a big war about it over 200 years ago and everything? 

I'm not surprised at all. Lots of people in the US love the English royal family and are interested in whatever drama or news comes up. 

I used to watch L&O original recipe, SVU, and CI. I stopped several years ago. SVU was probably my least favorite. I completely understand the criticism about how the show portrays law and order in this country, but I didn't think the topic deserved the time John gave it, not with everything else going on.

[RedbirdNelly]

I used to watch L&O and some SVU. I kind of appreciated having a week where the topic is lighter (despite being serious when you realize the issues with police). I was tempted to google what that bulge on the side of Dick Wolf's eye brow is but have refrained. 

[buttersister]

12 minutes ago, RedbirdNelly said:

bulge on the side of Dick Wolf's eye brow

What's left of his conscience trying to get out through his face.

I found myself watching original L&O reruns recently, mostly enjoying seeing Jerry Orbach and a young Sam Waterston. What's disturbing is the use of questionable/improper police interrogation techniques being treated as normal. Over and over again. By the "heroes" of the show. Along with the frequent demonizing of defense attorneys John pointed out, I'm reminded why I never watched it originally. 

While I think people who watch LWT can discern what's going on in the L&O universe, I don't mind John reminding the world in general that propaganda comes in a variety of sizes and flavors. 

[ahisma]

I had heard that this was the first time in history that a monarch/Prime Minister meeting would be a first time for both of them. Trust John to state it as a kindness from Queen Liz to distract from PM Liz’s abysmal performance!

Guess I don’t have to worry about the fact Sean Hannity doesn’t bathe since I don’t shop at WalMart…

[swanpride]

Is it bad that I can't remember what was actually said about Chile other than it being somehow related to its constitution? I am sure it was important, but the tiny superman was just so distracting....

The death of the Queen is mostly interesting because the UK is in uproar pretty much since Brexit (though the policies which lead to it go back to at least Thatcher), and not it has lost another pillar. Not to mention that it is very likely that the commonwealth will now fall apart. But yeah, he is right, it is basically an old women dying peacefully after a fulfilled time. 

Law and Order is just another show which provide copaganda, but the idea that cops actually take their cue from it is nearly as terrifying as the fact that some of them are fans of the Punisher. A TV show can't replace proper training. 

May I point to the genius of "bananaphylactic schock"? 

[iMonrey]

I've never seen a single episode of Law & Order in any of its iterations, but I did get a kick out of the point John was making. 

I guess he doesn't have much deference for the Queen, but about half of Britons don't either, so there's that. 

I don't understand why none of the people standing around the speaker didn't pull that little kid aside and get him out of the picture. They all just stood there and watched.

[stonehaven]

I love Law and Order but I know it's been too kind to the cops.  As for the demonizing defense attorneys, yes that is true but they are played by great actors with great flair most of the time.

I live in Minnesota so all you have to say is Philando Castille and George Floyd and we should know the truth. 

I do think Blue Bloods is a bit worse in it's pro-cop message...and any woman who thinks SVU is really like reality doesn't watch the real news and see the real stories of old rape kits aging in storage with no results...or shitty sentences for rapists because these punks "might have a future".

For me, the solution is not to change what's on TV but change the reality in your neighborhood...

[Annber03]

7 hours ago, ahisma said:

Guess I don’t have to worry about the fact Sean Hannity doesn’t bathe since I don’t shop at WalMart…

Hell, I have been to Wal-Mart (mainly because it's one of the few big stores where one can get things here in town) and I was sitting here during those clips like, "Nobody asked you to speak for people like me, Hannity." I'm so sick of people like him thinking that he's defending people like me from those "snobby liberal elites" or whatever. No, you're not, dude, shut up and sit down. 

[paigow]

7 hours ago, swanpride said:

Law and Order is just another show which provide copaganda, but the idea that cops actually take their cue from it is nearly as terrifying as the fact that some of them are fans of the Punisher. A TV show can't replace proper training. 

The Punisher never killed anyone over a traffic violation or because he feared for his life when some guy started running AWAY... They need training to watch copaganda...

[shapeshifter]

Finally watched John Oliver's LWT L&O segment.

He's not wrong, but, just to satisfy my curiosity, I did Google LAW & ORDER WRONGLY CONVICTED LIST OF CASES, and retrieved lists like: lawandorder.fandom.com/wiki/Wrongful_conviction 
which lists 21 episodes depicting wrongful convictions on just original-recipe L&O through season 20 (and 16 more on SVU through season 18).

However, in keeping with John Oliver's point, given that Google also says there are 456 episodes of L&O to date, that means less than a half a percent of the episodes have characterized wrongful convictions, whereas the Innocence Project "conservatively" estimates the number of incarcerated people who were wrongly convicted to be at least 1%, and the Georgia Innocence Project estimates 5%.

So JO's somewhat fleeting reference to L&O's depiction of wrongful conviction cases seems justified.

[peeayebee]

12 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Hell, I have been to Wal-Mart (mainly because it's one of the few big stores where one can get things here in town) and I was sitting here during those clips like, "Nobody asked you to speak for people like me, Hannity." I'm so sick of people like him thinking that he's defending people like me from those "snobby liberal elites" or whatever. No, you're not, dude, shut up and sit down. 

Oh, and I'm SURE he shops at Walmart. :rolls eyes:

I prefer Target, but I do go to Walmart pretty regularly because it's the closest store with groceries -- I really hope a real grocery store is built nearby -- and also because, like you, I can almost always find what I need there. 

[swanpride]

Won't happen. Walmart's business model is to underbid the rivals (sometimes even to a level that they make losses for a while), and once they are gone, they hike up the prices. At best Aldi or Lidl might manage with their low overhead costs policies. 

[peeayebee]

Yes, Walmart is cheaper than other places. Actually, I think I had read somewhere about some grocery stores having a contract or agreement with cities about no competition in their immediate area. Where I am, there ARE grocery stores, but they're farther away than is convenient. Add to that a boom in residential development here, so really another grocery store is needed.

Is there a way to find out if grocery stores have such deals in place to stamp out competition?

[paigow]

3 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Where I am, there ARE grocery stores, but they're farther away than is convenient.

Costco should be nearby....

[stonehaven]

Is it wrong that I tried to google that SVU episode with the poor banana doing unspeakable things?

I watched SVU in it's early years but have no recollection of that line or episode...Now, I must find it and then shower afterwards.....

[PrincessPurrsALot]

16 minutes ago, stonehaven said:

Is it wrong that I tried to google that SVU episode with the poor banana doing unspeakable things?

I watched SVU in it's early years but have no recollection of that line or episode...Now, I must find it and then shower afterwards.....

I do remember that line.  People always respond calmly when learning their dead spouse was sodomized with a banana.  Not even a moment of "wait, what?"

[Annber03]

I think I'd heard of that clip, but never actually saw it until this episode. That was....truly something :p. 

[shapeshifter]

14 hours ago, stonehaven said:

Is it wrong that I tried to google that SVU episode with the poor banana doing unspeakable things?

It took just one Google search for it to appear at the top, probably because of LWT.
It's from L&O SVU episode 1.12 "Russian Love Poem" https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0629725/characters/nm0002127

[DoctorAtomic]

On 9/12/2022 at 11:58 AM, ahisma said:

Guess I don’t have to worry about the fact Sean Hannity doesn’t bathe since I don’t shop at WalMart…

No way he actually shops anywhere. I used to to WalMart to get my dog's insulin there because it was the least expensive in the city. I think I bought ice trays there once too. (And they called *her* name when the prescription was ready). I think I bought the needles there too because I was right there. Everything else is close by, so there's nothing I really *need* that I would go to WalMart that I can't get somewhere else or order on Amazon if it's not a pressing issue. Lots of people use the pharmacy, but no one smelled. I don't know what he was going for there with the smelly part of it. 

I of course know of the L&O franchise, but I've never watched any of it. The clips of public figures saying "All I know is from Law and Order" is alarming. The dialogue in the clips was way overwrought. Is it like that all the time? 

That airline commercial was weird in the sense that they felt it necessary to say what kind of plane it was. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[peeayebee]

5 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't know what he was going for there with the smelly part of it. 

I assume he was implying that this is what elitist liberals think Walmart shoppers are like. 

[xaxat]

That kid in Chile is my new hero. Living his best life and giving no f's.

John Oliver slammed ‘Law & Order’ as propaganda. One of its actors agreed.

[Lugal]

3 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I assume he was implying that this is what elitist liberals think Walmart shoppers are like.

I agree, but I also think he let a little too much slip and that's also how he secretly views Walmart shoppers as well.

[Lantern7]

Question: why did we get a new episode, only to wait two weeks for the next one? Im guessing this one was filmed on Saturday, and then the staff flew to Hollywood for the Emmys. Can’t miss the sad British man get yet another award, right?

Interesting topic, and an inspired one: how a TV show has skewed people’s perceptions of (lowercase) law and order. I never got into the franchise; I’m good with John Munlaney doing stand-up on L&O tropes  and Ice-T on SVU. It’s amazing how deep in the fabric of American consciousness it’s been woven, and how it’s more fantasy than reality. On the bright side, I got to see a Tik Tom of a suspect’s head getting smashed to the beat of “Hollaback Girl.” John’s right . . . even if you hate police brutality, that is fun to watch.

. 

[Ceindreadh]

On 9/12/2022 at 11:30 PM, iMonrey said:

I've never seen a single episode of Law & Order in any of its iterations, but I did get a kick out of the point John was making. 

I guess he doesn't have much deference for the Queen, but about half of Britons don't either, so there's that. 

Sky - who broadcast the Last Week tonight in the UK - clearly have plenty of deference for the Queen, because they cut out pretty near all mention of her from the show. 

Am I the only one who paused the show to check google images because I didn't quite believe John when he promised that the final picture was Dick Wolf?

[DoctorAtomic]

On 9/14/2022 at 6:13 PM, Lugal said:

I agree, but I also think he let a little too much slip and that's also how he secretly views Walmart shoppers as well.

Absolutely. I don't know why he went to 'smelly' though. 

[Lugal]

On 9/17/2022 at 9:01 PM, Lantern7 said:

It’s amazing how deep in the fabric of American consciousness it’s been woven, and how it’s more fantasy than reality. On the bright side, I got to see a Tik Tom of a suspect’s head getting smashed to the beat of “Hollaback Girl.” John’s right . . . even if you hate police brutality, that is fun to watch.

Propaganda's really a lot like porn.  Both hit you right in the limbic system.

[Lantern7]

2 hours ago, Lugal said:

Propaganda's really a lot like porn.  Both hit you right in the limbic system.

I meant the Tik Tok, not the series. And that’s “Tik Tok,” not “Tik Tom.” Why can’t I always look at my posts? The edit function is there for a reason.

On 9/12/2022 at 2:33 PM, swanpride said:

May I point to the genius of "bananaphylactic schock"? 

Is it fucked up to hope that was based on real life? Otherwise, someone thought up “sodomy, and the victim was allergic to the device,” and that’s scary.

ETA: Great touch playing the LWT theme in the style of L&O. Forgot to mention that.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Lantern7

[andromeda331]

I do love Law & Order I like solving crimes, the one liners, the twists and the murderer or rapist actually going to jail for their crimes especially when their rich and/or have connections. If anything I wish we could make that part a reality. I really liked SVU when it first started. It was nice to see victims being listened too and rapists going to jail for their crimes. I stopped after getting tired of the cops especially Stabler constantly beating up suspects. Usually before they even have a reason or any evidence that the person is guilty. Also having a cop usually Benson just deciding someone is guilty despite zero evidence but always end up right by the end of the episode. I do agree Blue Bloods is an even worse example because Danny's always beating up suspects with him and Grandpa Henry acting like that's how it should be. Henry used to be the commissioner so even worse shit went down on his watch and with his approval.  Also having anyone who might have a legit issue with police especially a minority being a terrible person. 

[peeayebee]

I haven't watched L&O in a long time, but I used to really enjoy it. I'm sure I wasn't paying attention to any of the issues that John talked about. One of my favorite eps was "Patsy" where a man denies having assaulted his girlfriend, saying he was set up. I know some people might have problems with the premise and the way things worked out, but I thought it was very entertaining, and the actor (Sebastian Roche) was excellent.

Ooooh! Maybe my favorite was "Pro Se" -- I'm googling the titles -- with Denis O'Hare and Ann Dowd giving amazing performances. 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

I do agree Blue Bloods is an even worse example because Danny's always beating up suspects 

NYPD Blue frequently used the threat of a sanctioned beatdown to coerce confessions. That most suspects immediately caved highlighted that they realized the Constitution no longer applied and plea bargaining was off the table. 

[shapeshifter]

All of the upthread documentation of L&O-type shows' use of obsessive force (beat downs) seems to speak to what I've observed:
That the use of obsessive force by TV cops is invariably accompanied by explicit condemnation of such tactics——
which is the opposite of John Oliver's premise of the shows condoning such practices, if I understood JO correctly.
Yes? No?
Or is JO's point that the crime show viewing public is generally not smart enough to make that distinction?

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Cop shows often show excessive use of force with the dramatic scene of the Lieutenant or another higher-ranking officer stopping it.  However, they will almost invariably show it as being justified.  On TV, beat downs, or the threat of them, get confessions and those confessions are accurate.  That is the key differentiator.  In reality, high pressure tactics often lead to the wrong person confessing in an attempt to get out of the situation or a beat down leads to someone saying whatever they need to do to make it stop. 

While there is some condemnation of these tactics, and that has increased in the last few years, we are also shown more other cops supporting the tactics than those that oppose them.  Also, we are shown prosecutors that are angry that they cannot use a confession if it is proven that it was coerced.  However, if the coercion is not proven, no one seems to care. 

In these shows, while there is usually one episode where the cop learns they sent the wrong person to prison (and more where someone else thinks they did only to be proven that the cop was actually right in the first place), the standard is that the police somehow just know the person is guilty and so any means are justified when trying to get a confession.  More often than not, defense attorneys are painted as either ridiculously naive or evil hindrances to getting justice. 

I don't see this as an issue of the intelligence of the viewing public.  It is a lack of information. The more widespread discussions about and pushback against the way that policing is done in America as well as the biases in the criminal justice system are fairly recent. There were always people aware of these issues, especially in the black and brown communities.  However, they were not being given a media spotlight.  This was exacerbated by the number of shows, though not necessarily Law & Order, that showed many more people of color as criminals.  There are also plenty of people arguing policing tactics and racial biases are not issues.  

Also, it has been proven that media images have major impact on the way we view the world.  If we are continually shown that the cops are always right, they only use extreme measures against truly bad people, etc., that works its way into the collective consciousness. Multiple studies have shown that belief is stronger than knowledge; that is, it is harder to change someone's beliefs, even when they are presented with facts that disprove them.  These media representations create belief. 

[Notwisconsin]

On 9/11/2022 at 11:55 PM, Annber03 said:

I understand the Queen's death being a huge deal for the UK and Europe as a whole, obviously, and I can understand world leaders in general offering their thoughts on her passing, too, of course. But yeah, the way some here in the States are obsessed with this is...weird. Like, you guys realize we broke away from the monarchy for a reason, right? We had a big war about it over 200 years ago and everything? 

The Royals are usually listed as "entertainment" not "Politics." As the last "imperial" monarchy with all the bells and whistles, they put on a magnificent show. Chuck & Di and the right royal soap opera was pretty much how the whole thing started.

The whole shebang is a magnificent show.