S01.E10: Lost Hearts

[Meredith Quill]

Quote

As the Dream vortex grows more powerful and the walls between the realms weaken, Rose must make a difficult choice. Morpheus confronts The Corinthian.

[MissL]

That was a very neat, clean, surprisingly happy ending. Not sure how I feel about it all being wrapped up so easily yet but I’d watch another season. If Netflix does another one. 

[Black Knight]

Well, they wrapped up the current arc, but ended on a big cliffhanger about Lucifer's plans - and the nice thing about that is the cliffhanger isn't out of nowhere, it's getting back to the unresolved plot point earlier in the season of Lucifer vowing to destroy Dream.

I would also gladly watch a S2. I binged this season in less than 24 hours (the first seven episodes Friday night, the final three Saturday morning).

[AnimeMania]

Even though The Sandman's personality seemed to have turned a corner. I am still not that fond of him. The show left a lot of interesting characters largely unexplored, it seemed like a waste of talent. The Vortex problem seemed to be solved too easily. Again the story could have used some plot twists and cleverer solutions.

Why is Rose living in New York with all of those roommates in that grubby little apartment. I thought she was heiress to a large conglomeration, she should be living large.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Why is Rose living in New York with all of those roommates in that grubby little apartment. I thought she was heiress to a large conglomeration, she should be living large.

Her great-grandmother just died. It would take time for the estate to be processed. 

That aside, I don't think her apartment is grubby for NYC, and she might want some level of normalcy after going through chaos for the last few weeks.

[AnimeMania]

I am not sure how much space you need for an apartment with 8 people in it, but I am sure that wasn't it.

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I am not sure how much space you need for an apartment with 8 people in it, but I am sure that wasn't it.

Only three people actually need to live in Rose's apartment proper, if that: Jed, Lyta and her. I don't remember if Lyta actually lives in the same apartment according to the series or just the same building.

[AnimeMania]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Only three people actually need to live in Rose's apartment proper, if that: Jed, Lyta and her. I don't remember if Lyta actually lives in the same apartment according to the series or just the same building.

You missed the baby.

[Chicago Redshirt]

22 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

You missed the baby.

I stand corrected. It's either just Rose and Jed living in the apartment, or Rose, Jed, Lyta and baby. I think it is the former. I don't think it's very likely that Lyta as a woman who was married and who has as far as we know a reasonable career as an architect would need/want Rose as a roomie. I suppose it's possible that the apartment is hers and she is letting Rose stay there because she's looking for work.

In any case, from my recollection of what was shown, it would have been plenty of room if it's just for two and OK for 3.5. I'm not sure where 8 comes from.

If/when there's another season, we'll see if Rose sticks with her current living arrangements or moves based on her inheritance and why she makes the choice(s) she does.

It may be that even if/when she becomes filthy rich, Rose doesn't want to spend her money on living large. It may be that despite great-grandma being/seeming rich, somehow that money doesn't pass down to Rose. We'll see.

[dankesean]

Lyta, it's mentioned at some point, lives a floor up in the same building as Rose. Rose, I believe, owns her apartment outright- they said the reason she doesn't have much money at the start of her arc is because her mother spent most of it on the apartment, because she wanted Rose to have a home. So, Rose and Jed in one apartment, Lyta and as-yet-unnamed-baby next floor up, maybe Hal stayed and crashed with both of them for a time when he moved back north, but I assume he wasn't a long-term resident.

[MrWhyt]

On 8/8/2022 at 7:30 PM, AnimeMania said:

Why is Rose living in New York with all of those roommates in that grubby little apartment. 

who says they're her roommates?

[MissL]

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

If/when there's another season, we'll see if Rose sticks with her current living arrangements or moves based on her inheritance and why she makes the choice(s) she does.

It may be that even if/when she becomes filthy rich, Rose doesn't want to spend her money on living large. It may be that despite great-grandma being/seeming rich, somehow that money doesn't pass down to Rose. We'll see.

I’m under the assumption we are done with Rose. She is no longer the vortex and just a normal mortal so I assume her story is done. I think a second season would bring back the other Endless and Constantine and maybe Dreams immortal friend whose name escapes me but no need for Rose.  Which I’m ok with. Her story was wrapped up in a pretty neat bow.

[AnimeMania]

2 hours ago, MissL said:

I’m under the assumption we are done with Rose. She is no longer the vortex and just a normal mortal so I assume her story is done. I think a second season would bring back the other Endless and Constantine and maybe Dreams immortal friend whose name escapes me but no need for Rose.  Which I’m ok with. Her story was wrapped up in a pretty neat bow.

But Lyta's baby's story is not, so we may see them again.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 8/8/2022 at 9:30 PM, AnimeMania said:

Why is Rose living in New York with all of those roommates in that grubby little apartment. I thought she was heiress to a large conglomeration, she should be living large.

She's living in her mother's apartment in New Brunswick, not new York, with Jeb.  Lyta and the baby are in the same building.  It was said earlier that there was no money left in her mother's estate because she had spent it on a home for Rose.

Hal and the other guy probably live nearby and were just eating dinner with them.  Hal asked Rose how far New Brunswick was from NY because he had dreams of working in NY, not necessarily living there.   Selling a house in Florida should give him money for a place to live in NJ. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, MissL said:

I’m under the assumption we are done with Rose. She is no longer the vortex and just a normal mortal so I assume her story is done. I think a second season would bring back the other Endless and Constantine and maybe Dreams immortal friend whose name escapes me but no need for Rose.  Which I’m ok with. Her story was wrapped up in a pretty neat bow.

The tv series can follow its own path, of course, for any number of reasons, including convenience, actor availability, reaction to the network or to fans, but...

suffice it to say that if it broadly follows the path of the graphic novels, which I imagine it will, we will see Rose again eventually.

Hob Gadling is the name of Dream's immortal friend.  

[snickers]

I watched the entire series in 3 days, didn’t even hear of this show until this weekend, my thoughts:

1. it was nice to have a show not focus on action and focus on dialogue and adult content and issues for once
2. CGI a little iffy at times, at times really good (example the scenes of the landscape of Hell -good vs the fiddlers green transformation -awful )
3. Some of the acting from the secondary characters was terrible (example Lyta, Barbie and Ken)
4. I agree with those that said we needed more Desire and Death scenes 
5. as for Dream, I’ll admit it took me a while to get used to the character, the first episode didn’t hook me but I wanted to keep going, but I’m just not getting all this hate for the character I’ve read in the threads, sure the actor sounds like cillian Murphy with the look of the Crow movie, but I’ve seen some pictures from the graphic novel and I think they did a decent adaptation of the character- complicated and layered characters don’t seem to be popular anymore and I guess with so much tv content people can just check out if they get upset a CGI creature they saw for two minutes dies and upsets them-I know nothing about this fandom but I thought they “humanized” Dream too much at the end but maybe this is the path of the comic-but I’m liking what I saw of him so far a lot, takes his responsibilities seriously, sends the one he loves to hell, kills without hesitation, and will be coming for lytas baby? Good character development-not one note like all the other shows we watch 🤣

[Chicago Redshirt]

9 hours ago, snickers said:

1. Some of the acting from the secondary characters was terrible (example Lyta, Barbie and Ken)

I think the Barbie and Ken acting was supposed to be what they were because they were supposed to present as superficial as their toy counterparts.

The Lyta actress was CW-bad. Which seems even worse when basically the rest of the cast is top notch.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[thuganomics85]

So, if I'm understanding everything correctly, Desire's plan the entire time was that they just wanted Morpheus to kill one of the family?  Since Rose was actually fathered by Desire?  Was that going to cause something or was Desire just doing it for kicks?  Kind of confused by all of that.  At least that trap was avoided thanks to Unity basically sacrificing herself (since she was suppose to be the Vortex but then Morpheus got kidnapped), but it seems clear that Desire will probably try something again soon.

Bummed that both The Corinthian and Gilbert have been taken off the board since both Boyd Holbrook and Stephen Fry were some of the highlights here.  Of course, this is definitely the type of show that could easily find a way to bring them back if need be.  Did like how Morpheus' "punishment" to the rest of the Collectors was to basically let them truly see what kind of monsters they are and how that will likely lead to them either turning themselves in or offing themselves.

I'm guessing Lyta's baby and Morpheus claim that he is going to have to collect him at some point will come back into play and used as a way to keep Rose around if there is another season.

Clearly setting up Lucifer to be the next main threat going forward, which would be nice since Gwendoline Christie was a bit underused here.

All in all, I enjoy the series; flaws and all; and will definitely check out another one if it happens (plus might give the comics a go too.)  Did think "The Sound of Her Wings" was easily the best episode, so I hope use that as a reference point going forward.  Cast was solid too.  Along with Holbrook and Fry, I thought the other standouts were David Thewlis as John Burgess, Jenna Coleman as Johanna Constantine,  and Kirby Howell-Baptiste as Death, so I hope those characters factor back in.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 8/12/2022 at 9:05 PM, thuganomics85 said:

So, if I'm understanding everything correctly, Desire's plan the entire time was that they just wanted Morpheus to kill one of the family?  Since Rose was actually fathered by Desire?  Was that going to cause something or was Desire just doing it for kicks?  Kind of confused by all of that.

Dream said something about "all that would entail" if he had killed a family member. (And then threatens Desire!) But there is no way you could know at this point what would actually happen unless you had read the graphic novels.

A familiarity with classic Greek tragedy would help you speculate, though. Gaiman draws upon many mythological sources.

Edited August 14, 2022 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/12/2022 at 8:05 PM, thuganomics85 said:

So, if I'm understanding everything correctly, Desire's plan the entire time was that they just wanted Morpheus to kill one of the family?  Since Rose was actually fathered by Desire?  Was that going to cause something or was Desire just doing it for kicks?  Kind of confused by all of that.  At least that trap was avoided thanks to Unity basically sacrificing herself (since she was suppose to be the Vortex but then Morpheus got kidnapped), but it seems clear that Desire will probably try something again soon.

Slight clarification:

Desire slept with Unity, resulting in Rose's grandmother rather than Rose.

And yes if Dream had killed a family member, that could have been very bad. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

21 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Dream said something about "all that would entail" if he had killed a family member. (And then threatens Desire!) But there is no way you could know at this point what would actually happen unless you had read the graphic novels.

A familiarity with classic Greek tragedy would help you speculate, though. Gaiman draws upon many mythological sources.

Btw, you wouldn't know the reason at this point in the graphic novel, either.

[Zuleikha]

I did not like this at all! It felt like the Sandman by way of Disney. I know Neil Gaiman was involved, but I would never have guessed by the choices that were made of how to change stories. I would love to be able to sit down with Gaiman and ask him why he did this because it is incomprehensible to me.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I did not like this at all! It felt like the Sandman by way of Disney. I know Neil Gaiman was involved, but I would never have guessed by the choices that were made of how to change stories. I would love to be able to sit down with Gaiman and ask him why he did this because it is incomprehensible to me.

I'd be interested in hearing more in the book vs. show thread. 

I think I "get" a lot of the changes, and the overall notion of making Dream and the world softer may be a Netflix thing or a Gaiman being more mellow in his older age thing or something else...

[ombre]

15 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I did not like this at all! It felt like the Sandman by way of Disney. I know Neil Gaiman was involved, but I would never have guessed by the choices that were made of how to change stories. I would love to be able to sit down with Gaiman and ask him why he did this because it is incomprehensible to me.

I suspect a lot of it has to do with the different media.  Actors inevitably can convey far more than the images in a graphic novel because they can continue to imbue their characters and situations with nuance in between poses. I think that has been very difficult for the characterization of Dream, who has to literally stand there and brood brood brood brood brood.  I think the actor is doing a decent job of it and sometimes finding the core stillness that it requires, but it runs the risk of coming across as cartoonish if done poorly.  (and I think the actor has a very hard task to find a way to show Dream's evolution from just brooding.) 

I think they've rewritten a lot of the other characters to be slightly less extreme versions for themselves. Partially, I'd say this comes from needing to avoid the various DC properties (and this losing the depth of storytelling work already done for those other properties), but also, again, I think it's harder to have a nuanced human performance of some of the original story lines.  What is a cell of a comic if not the blink of an eye?  You can take in a lot of information in the blink of an eye, sure, but you can take in way more by watching a body exist and move and interact with the world around them. Plus, once you put in an actor, (and thus need to allow time for actors to perform the actions rather than just the eye slipping over the page *and* on top of that limit yourself to 10 hours of screen time) you suddenly need to simplify the story both because there's just not time and because what the actor excels at is conveying character.  All of which is to say that the switch of media means more character-driven storytelling which means you need to not be repulsed by the characters, at least not at first (lookin at you John Dee). 

As an addendum, I *mourn* the lost backstory of all these folks who came from other bits of the DC verse.  I think part of the reason the actor playing lyta struggled is that there's no backstory there anymore. And I know that I, as a sandman-obsessed kid, reached out into all sorts of obscurer corners of DC because of sandman and I *thrilled* at the tiny references to batman.  It zinged like electricity through my being.  I get that blah blah lawyerscakes, but I put this post here as a wee monument to my mourning. 

Edited August 15, 2022 by ombre

[Zuleikha]

On 8/14/2022 at 11:10 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'd be interested in hearing more in the book vs. show thread. 

I put some longer thoughts in there already on the changes to Rose's characterization but the tl;dr is that I'm talking about the emotional tone as much as anything else. The graphic novel was creepy and scary and sad, and Morpheus was scary and powerful and very inhuman. The show seems saccharine with the main characters never at risk, everyone such great and helpful friends, and Morpehus learning an important lesson about listening to his friends and admitting he can be wrong.
 

[jacehan]

One thing about the cereal convention is that serial killers aren’t really as big of a thing nowadays. To update it to 2022, we’d have to make it mass shooters or domestic terrorists.

(1970-2000 is known as the “golden age of serial killers,” so it was very fitting at the time. In fact, the number of serial killers peaked in 1989, when Sandman first came out - maybe Morpheus really did have an effect.)

[Mr. R0b0t]

8 hours ago, jacehan said:

One thing about the cereal convention is that serial killers aren’t really as big of a thing nowadays. To update it to 2022, we’d have to make it mass shooters or domestic terrorists.

(1970-2000 is known as the “golden age of serial killers,” so it was very fitting at the time. In fact, the number of serial killers peaked in 1989, when Sandman first came out - maybe Morpheus really did have an effect.)

Indeed.  Hard to compare a methodical killer like Zodiac or BTK to a mass shooter

[bmoore4026]

On 8/18/2022 at 1:14 AM, jacehan said:

One thing about the cereal convention is that serial killers aren’t really as big of a thing nowadays. To update it to 2022, we’d have to make it mass shooters or domestic terrorists.

(1970-2000 is known as the “golden age of serial killers,” so it was very fitting at the time. In fact, the number of serial killers peaked in 1989, when Sandman first came out - maybe Morpheus really did have an effect.)

Does date the books a bit, doesn't it?  But the whole thing is so intrinsically tied to The Corinthian, you'd be hard pressed to find a substitute.

The kid playing Jed is phenomenal.  Not one, but two tears came down his face when he's told his and Rose's mom had died.  Some actors can't manage one.

And all the hairs on my body stood on end when we saw the Vortex truly manifest itself and suck all of Rose's housemates and Jed down it.  Also, sucks for Barbie to find out what Ken really dreams about.  No pun intended.

Unity has always been my favorite Sandman character.  She's the MVP of "The Doll's House" storyline. And, like the book's Unity, I wished this Unity stayed in the Dreaming, too.  But she had been in The Dreaming.  She was in it for 100 years.  Staying in the Dreaming after death would be hell for her.  I'm just realizing that.

Speaking of MVPs, Mason Alexander Park steals every scene they are in and they had better get a crap ton of awards for their performance, Emmy included.

[tennisgurl]

I was really excited about this show, but also nervous. After Netflix broke my heart with Cowboy Bepbop, another show based on a property that I have adored for years and really shaped my taste in media, I was worried that I was going to be disappointed again. Luckily, I can say that I loved this show and thought it was an extremely worthy adaptation. I was honestly shocked by how faithful this show was to the source material, they hit pretty much all of the major points, many characters really looked exactly like they did on paper, there were many scenes wholly lifted from the book, and while there were changes, I think most of them worked in changing mediums. I am just so impressed by this show and how much love the people behind the show had for the source material. There were a few things I would have liked to keep from the comics, and they did lighten things up here and there which made for a more conventional story than the original, but it makes sense for a more mainstream show, but its nothing that wasn't already there and even the stuff we missed is stuff I can live without. My nitpicks are so minor, I cant really even talk about them all that much, they really nailed the stories themes and that is what I wanted more than anything. 

I wasn't sure how much I liked the idea of making the Corinthian a more reoccurring character, but I think it ended up working out, I get why they added more of him. Netflix probably wanted more serialized story telling for binge watching purposes, including a more reoccurring villain, and using the Corinthian was definitely the villain that had the most to be expanded on, he added a bigger thread for the season and built him up more so that his defeat at the end feels even better. It also helps that they killed him at the end of the arc, he isn't going to be overused the way some villains are, plus I cant blame them for wanting to keep Boyd Holbrook around, the guy is just so charismatic and weirdly charming. In general the whole cast was excellent, everyone was so well cast, both the main characters and the supporting cast. I especially loved the woman playing Unity, she's such a great character and the actress gave her such warmth and internal strength. 

I thought that this was a really good wrap up to the season, we get a closing to most of the seasons main arcs while also opening up lots of new arcs, with Desire still looking to mess with Dream and Lucifer and the demons preparing for war, and there was even a LOT of foreshadowing to things in future arcs, which I wont get into, but I love how much is already being set up that will affect the show going forward. I really like TV Rose and how her story ended up going, she really did feel like a protagonist even if we only met her around halfway through the show. The ending with Dream letting Gault become a dream was a good way to give the show bookends, with Dream showing some signs of change, even if its a slow process. Again, different from the book, but for the story that the show is telling, it really works. 

I love how Dream handled the "collectors" by just showing them who they really are. They're sad, pathetic, miserable, hateful people that have only caused the world more pain, it really continues a lot of this shows themes of people using the stories they tell themselves to justify what they do. Its a real big thing with the series, that people make their own problems and their own victories. 

Just a great show, a great adaptation, and I am really excited to see how they handle the next season.  

[Anela]

I haven't finished the episode yet, but as dark as it is, I love the scene where Dream has told the serial killers, that they will feel all of the pain of their victims. 

[Anela]

Oh, Unity. What a beautiful person. 

I'm glad that Rose and Jed are okay. "As long as you don't have a name, you can't get into any trouble." So cute. But I hope the baby isn't another vortex. 

[JustHereForFood]

I didn't expect to feel so emotional when Gault was made into a dream, after knowing her only such a short time, but I shed a few tears.

[Morrigan2575]

This show was a mixed bag for me. I thought the first half was pretty boring.  I was only interested in John Dee and, they wrapped that up so quickly, I felt let down.

The Rose Walker storyline was more interesting.  I liked all the characters involved in that story, especially Gilbert/Fiddler's Green.  I'm interested in what happens to the dream baby.

I still think Patton Oswalt was the wrong choice for Matthew. I also dislike how they styles Lucifer but, I did like Maziken.  Overall this was visually stunning and I'll probably watch S2 bit, I can't say it hooked me.

[MisterGlass]

I thought this was about as good an adaptation as could be expected for the circumstances.  It was surprising faithful but streamlined, and they actually brought hints forward that will pay off later, if the series is renewed.  The changes to the story were logical, and there's nothing I particularly fault in them.  And the Gault/Jed storyline was a nice improvement.  The visuals couldn't compete with the comics, but I braced myself for that.  As others have mentioned, the tone is what is most different.  It's taking some getting used to.  The dark parts are only gray compared to the comics.

The character that they absolutely nailed was Desire.  Death was good, and Dream and the Corinthian were good on balance.  I also liked this Lucienne, who was more developed.  I was worried about Patton Oswalt being broad as Matthew, but I thought he did well.  The many veteran character actors really delivered and gave a lot of depth to little moments.

I wish they'd gone for it a little more with the costuming.  Desire was stunning, and Death's basic black was canon, but Dream could have been a little more regal and outlandish in the Dreaming, and they could have justified contact lenses there.  They did go so far as to have Fun Land's hat, which I never thought they would do. 

If there is a second season I'll watch it.

[Morrigan2575]

16 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

And the Gault/Jed storyline was a nice improvement. 

Oh I forgot I really enjoyed Gault and liked that Dream listened to her and Fiddler and learned from them.

16 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

Death was good

I had a problem with Death, she was too much like American Gods Anubis/Mr Jacquel (in personality), IMO.

[supposebly]

Ok, this was a bit of a pat ending to all of this. I was pretty much expecting that Unity had something to do with this whole vortex business.

I get it, his sibling don't like him much, he's a bit boring, not too bright, and doesn't listen, while thinking he's all that, but why do they keep trying to bring him down? Is it because he thinks he is more powerful than them? Is he? And what difference will it make? To Hell? To be bigger? So there are no more dreams?

I'm having a hard time having empathy with any of these beings. 

I do like Lucienne, she had at least something of a personality. Even if it was a prickly one.

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't know if I call her prickly. She ran the place for 100 years when everyone bailed, and Dream comes back and without much a thanks, he tells her to sod off to the library. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 9/2/2022 at 11:14 PM, supposebly said:

Ok, this was a bit of a pat ending to all of this. I was pretty much expecting that Unity had something to do with this whole vortex business.

I get it, his sibling don't like him much, he's a bit boring, not too bright, and doesn't listen, while thinking he's all that, but why do they keep trying to bring him down? Is it because he thinks he is more powerful than them? Is he? And what difference will it make? To Hell? To be bigger? So there are no more dreams?

I'm having a hard time having empathy with any of these beings. 

Desire articulated in one episode in a talk with Despair that they wanted Dream to learn that dreams are products of despair and desire, not the other way around. 

As someone with mortal siblings, I very much understand how any number of little things can cause deep-seated jealousy, anger, friction, etc. I can't begin to imagine how much that would multiply if people had millennia of interactions like the Endless would have.