Motive - General Discussion

[Dagny]

I think she could probably plea it down. He was trying to kill her. The plunger could have "accidently" been pushed during the struggle. Her finger could have transferred to the door handle since she was hanging around the stables, etc.

[teebax]

I think the main problem for her defense would be that she put him in the stable when he was already no longer a threat to her. Granted, according to the detectives, he would have died from the poison anyway. But since he was trying to use the poison on her, I think she'd have a better shot at a self-defense claim if she hadn't done that last thing.

 

It looks like the show is off next week and then returning in two, from the previews. I'll miss it, as it's become my Wednesday night routine to watch it.

[basiltherat]

I really wish more time would have been spent on the main story and no time at all spent on all this Cross business.  We only care about that because it's making life miserable for Angie and now for Vega.  They're shoving Cross down our throats and he is someone we don't know and definitely someone we do not like at all.

 

I would have rather found out more about Isabella and how she got caught "working" for bitch Vicky, who was in effect holding her hostage.  How did that situation come about, and are there people engineering placing illegals and keeping them there?  How did "John" manage to fool a bunch of rich horsey folks?  Where did he get enough money to play like he was rich in order to attract the woman?

 

I don't think Isabella will get charged with murder because we found out almost immediately that "John" was planning a murder because of the set-up of his car and the hiring of a boat.  Self-defense and whatever charges for being here illegally, with maybe a deal if she tells about whatever organization was setting up her employment with Vicky. 

[Dagny]

How did that situation come about, and are there people engineering placing illegals and keeping them there?  How did "John" manage to fool a bunch of rich horsey folks?  Where did he get enough money to play like he was rich in order to attract the woman?

 

I thought she heard from friends that there was a nanny position that was available. Just an informal word of mouth.  I thought that Isabella said that they pooled a bunch of money together and gave it to "John" for him to get settled. He got settled and left the old country behind. How he managed to sound polished and speaking good English when he was from a tiny village is beyond me.

 

I hope they go after the Mom who kept the passport. She was playing up the sleeze so much, it reminded me of old Closer or Major Crimes episodes.  That and real life situations where the family pretty much treats the "nanny" as a slave.

[Trey]

 

I would have rather found out more about Isabella and how she got caught "working" for bitch Vicky, who was in effect holding her hostage.  How did that situation come about, and are there people engineering placing illegals and keeping them there?  How did "John" manage to fool a bunch of rich horsey folks?  Where did he get enough money to play like he was rich in order to attract the woman?

I would have liked to hear more about their background too.  When John's Canadian wife told them that John had lost all his money in a regime change I thought it was just a story he made up.  But then I got thinking that he probably did have money at one time or he never would have been able to fake it with the country club/horsey set.  He and Isabella seemed well educated. 

 

I am pretty sure a good lawyer would be able to get Isabella off on a self-defense plea..  It did look bad putting him in with the horse (like the girl who set the kitchen fire last week ) because she couldn't know the injection would kill him but he was very definitely going to kill her if she didn't kill him first. 

 

I think Isabella just got the nanny job because someone she met casually told her about it - don't think it was part of a crime ring. 

 

And, whatever happens to Isabella, I hope they arrest Vicky for holding Isabella against her will, possibly even slavery charges but that might be pushing it a bit.

 

Loved Vega putting the smackdown on Cross and I'm glad Angie finally quit waffling and told Cross's lawyer she couldn't testify on his behalf.

 

eta:  This is what happens when you take an hour to write your post - someone else answers the questions first:)

Edited July 31, 2014 by Trey

[Neurochick]

I don't think Isabella could get self defense because she put John in the stables.  If she'd just run after he got stuck with the syringe then yes, that's self defense.  She should have run, called the police and told them everything because John was trying to kill her, but putting him in the stables shot down her case IMO.

 

However what Vicky was doing is, I hope, illegal because she was keeping Isabella as a slave.  But if Isabella had her passport she would have left the country an they never would have found her.

 

I had no sympathy for Isabella, okay, so your husband fucked you over, she's not the first person that happened to and she won't be the last.  The case last week, the girl was trying to protect an innocent child; Isabella was just pissed that her husband was a prick.

 

How was John able to fool the rich folk?  Easy.  Look at the case of David Hampton who fooled a whole lot of wealthy New Yorkers in the 80's.  Sometimes when people come across those from other countries, especially South America, and they speak English very well, they assume, "well they must have money if they speak English so well."  So I think that's how John was able to fool them.

[SunnyBeBe]

I think they have great guest on this show, but I fear the regular actors in the lead roles are not strong enough to carry the show.  IMO, the show is well written, has impressive guest actors, but may be overlooked due to the main casts.  Still, I look forward to seeing it.  i love the premise.

[yeswedo]

 

Flynn and Vega search for a motive in the death of a real estate agent; Angie may be forced to testify in the trial.

 

Original US air date August 13, 2014

[Dagny]

Wow. How sleazy can the real estate guy get?

[Trey]

What an unsympathetic bunch of characters! Except the hooker - I liked her.

 

Joey was a real sleazebag and deserved to have the crap kicked out of him, but not murdered.

 

The family was just sort of weird.  I know their parents' deaths knocked the stuffing out of them but they still had a responsibility to take care of their own finances. And going to someone like Joey who was basically a loan shark wasn't the answer, but they did sign the contract so should have manned up - or gone to the police, or done something other than kill Joey - now their lives are ruined.

 

Did all the brothers know the sister (forgot her name) tried to buy Joey off with sex or was it just her twin?

 

And what is Angie going to do now that she's been subpoenaed by the other side?

Edited August 14, 2014 by Trey

[alias1]

Quote from Trey:

Joey was a real sleazebag and deserved to have the crap kicked out of him, but not murdered.

 

I thought the actual killing was pretty contrived.  Probably the worst I've seen for this show.  In real life, the 3 brothers (or at least two of them) would have kicked the crap out of that sleazebag.  I did feel sorry for the sister.  Was she charged with anything?  

Edited August 14, 2014 by SierraMist

[theatremouse]

It seemed like they probably weren't charging the sister since they seemed to believe, and not really contradict at any point her "went to bed/they were there when woke up" story. The difference in her saying she went to bed at 11 and them saying midnight is, to me, actually very reasonable and lends credibility to their story rather than not. If they all said "11" like nothing it'd sound like they agreed upon it. 12 is close enough that if they were playing video games at the time like they said, then it's plausible she went to bed sometime between 11 and 12, and once she did they went and did their murdering. And potentially were back before she woke up. And it's only her "I'm a light sleeper" bit that would've needed to be wrong. I think even if they suspected the sister in on it, it'd be much harder to pin anything on her.

 

It seemed extra contrived like they were just trying to make it harder to guess, but it didn't really work for me. The second the victim looked at the girl I thought it was clear they'd kill him because of the sister, either sexual assault or tryst gone wrong or something. So then the money thing got introduced as sort of a red herring but the real reveal was the original obvious motive...so...how is that surprising? I mean I get making us think it's one thing, or maybe even two things is a decent enough plot, but then the real answer should sort of be a third that somehow still makes sense despite the other possibilities. This just went back and forth between two obvious motives from the brothers.

 

I am still infuriated by the utter lack of logic from the prosecutor. Does she even hear herself? Do the writers? You were partners and lovers 10 years ago. Yes that is why she does not lend credibility to him, not the other way around, dumbass. Oh, so shocking, it's suspicious and ex doesn't want to say nice things about him? In what universe? (Oh right, the universe of entirely contrived plots.) It can't possibly be that people with not-amicable break ups do not have positive things to say about ex's character. Ugh I can't even with this. I may throw my shoe.

Edited August 15, 2014 by theatremouse

[basiltherat]

If Angie, who was a partner/lover a decade ago, is the ONLY ONE who can testfy to Cross' "character" -- then there is a lot more wrong with him and his credibility than Angie could save!  Character witnesses should be his superiors, not his peer or subordinate.

[zoey1996]

I finished watching Season One yesterday.  Some thoughts...

I enjoyed watching Flynn and Vega as partners.  They seem to work well together without any unresolved sexual tension, refreshing in my opinion.

Since I have seen none of Season Two, I don't know if Flynn's son returns from France (or even if he arrives safely), but I don't think his character is essential. 

I like seeing the Killer and the Victim from the beginning, and watching how the story is teased out.  I found the flashbacks within the episodes a little confusing at first, but I got used to it, and it works for me.

Now I'm looking forward to watching Season Two!

Edited August 18, 2014 by zoey1996

[cleo]

I've watched this show a few times. It's not bad. I think Flynn and Vega are the best things about it. They're both good actors. I find the writing kind of bad. Like usually there are big plot holes, and I am not even someone that pays attention to that. I think the actors deserve better material. I like the format just fine. 

[shapeshifter]

I found the flashbacks within the episodes a little confusing at first, but I got used to it, and it works for me.

Maybe I got used to it, but I think in season 2 they just get better at it.

[Bort]

Maybe I got used to it, but I think in season 2 they just get better at it.

I have noticed that season 2 is really creative with the transition shots into a flashback. I wish I could remember if they were clunkier or less effective in season 1, but it's been over a year since I've seen the episodes.

[Bort]

This show had been kind of on a roll lately with the despicable, unsympathetic victims so this was the first in a long while where I felt like the victim didn't deserve her fate. Yes, she stole your book, it was a sucky thing for her to do, but that wasn't worth killing her over, you wackjob. Ever hear of getting a lawyer? Three people died over that, a lawsuit would've been way preferable.

And preview for next week's finale looks goooood. Really think it makes the season long subplot with the Alphas cast reunion worthwhile.

[TWP]

I thought it was an interesting episode too. My only complaint is that our crime couple seemed a little cold to the boyfriend who was dying in the hospital of dimethyl mercury poisoning. And he was helping them too.

[teebax]

I thought it was an interesting episode too. My only complaint is that our crime couple seemed a little cold to the boyfriend who was dying in the hospital of dimethyl mercury poisoning. And he was helping them too.

I felt that way, too. Their attitude toward him didn't seem to contain any sympathy. His only crime was having had an affair, which certainly doesn't justify his being killed.

[basiltherat]

The murder story was interesting in that neither perp or vic was sympathetic, and we usually have some sympathy or at least understanding for the perp.  The dude was just not a very good murderer -- there was collteral damage, including himself!  Why would he steal an unproven method from a student (student was the most interesting character) he didn't really thiknk was very good?   Question for chemists out there -- if perp poured the rest of the mercury solution down the drain, WOULDN'T THE POISON THEN BE POISONING THE WATER SUPPLY??!!!

 

At least there will be some payoff to the umbrella story of Cross.  That story has been taking too much time from the murder of the week otherwise.

[Trey]

I also thought they were pretty cold to the poor guy.  I know they had to keep a professional attitude but just a little sympathy would have been nice.

 

I was afraid the murderer had put some poison on the pen he planted on the student but apparently not.  When the student confronted the professor I thought it was a setup with the cops but again, apparently not.  And, yeah, top of a long flight of stairs not the best place for a confrontation.  Guess the professor wasn't quite as careful as he thought he was when he mixed up the poison.

 

As usual, my favourite moments involved Vega, his sending  Angie off for a surprise meeting with her son (and the fact that he helped set it up), then taking Lucas out for a drink to discuss marriage woes.

 

I thought the victim was fairly despicable.  As a reader at a publishing company she was in a position of trust and she abused that.  Then rubbed salt in the wound by going to one of his classes and taking it over, and not remembering him.  Of course she didn't deserve to be murdered but she was pretty rotten.

 

I didn't see the preview for next week, glad it looks good.  I noticed that Cross's version of events was that he saved a life and in Angie's version two people died, two different slants on the same event.  Whatever happened all those years ago I'm sure both Angie and Cross did what they thought was right at the time.  Angie is a good cop and Cross appears to be a good cop too.

[Xantar]

So it looks like the prosecutor who has been bugging Angie to testify (I forget her name) is going to be killed next week? That's going to be an awfully convenient way to resolve this whole sub-plot.

[walnutqueen]

As usual, my favourite moments involved Vega, his sending  Angie off for a surprise meeting with her son (and the fact that he helped set it up), then taking Lucas out for a drink to discuss marriage woes.

 

 

My love for Vega continues to grow; surprisingly enough, so does my love for this show. 

 

I am quite intrigued by the Angie/Cross back story.  Two people were shot, one person was saved, and Angie lied about it.   Hmmm.

[theatremouse]

My favourite part was when Angie said as they walked out of frame/cut to commercial "oh it was totally made here" or something to that effect at the chemistry lab. Hilarious.

[Neurochick]

I thought the victim was sympathetic. Okay, Lori stole your book. What ever happened to hiring a lawyer? Dustin seemed the typical entitled douchebag.

Besides if Dustin was that great a writer then write another fucking story and self publish it on the Internet or something.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Neurochick

[shapeshifter]

The college Chemistry Department guy was none other than Bruce Harwood, of X-Files spin-off Lone Gunmen fame.

I noticed it when I was replaying to this:

Angie: And where are your mercury samples kept?
Chem guy: Over here. But these cabinets are kept securely locked.
[Cabinet opens without unlocking]
Chem guy: Oh. Heh heh. That is not supposed to happen.
Vega: Why don't we find out who has access to these?
Chem guy: Yes, right away. I'm sure this can be explained.
Vega: Mmm...yeah, I'm pretty sure we can explain it.
Angie [talking over Vega]: Sure can, the toxic was....

I was really annoyed the way Angie talked over Vega's witty remark. Was that directing or bad timing by Kristin Lehman?

[theatremouse]

It sounded really natural to me. Either written/directed that way, or for me, a good acting choice. It felt like a very "real" reaction to me.

[shapeshifter]

Maybe it wouldn't have annoyed me if Angie's remark was also witty--and maybe it was, IDK, it got cut off.

[Bort]

Well for once, the victim definitely didn't deserve to die, she just got in over her head with that case. And man, that was a horrible, violent way to go, I had a hard time watching it. Especially since... You know how it is, when you're watching a show and you're hoping the victim survive being attacked. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. In this case, as much as Sam was fighting it off, I knew she wasn't going to make it, it was like watching an execution. It was a good episode, just kind of a bummer.

[MomHasCooties]

 

I'm a fan of both actors from Alphas so it worked for me.

I can't believe it never dawned on me they were both on Alphas!  <blushing>

 

I enjoy this show.  Flynn and Vega are excellent together, hope they don't mess with that.

[Xantar]

Didn't they say there was no forced entry? So how exactly did the killer get in?

[Trey]

 

Didn't they say there was no forced entry? So how exactly did the killer get in?

I think Mark had just left a few minutes previously and she hadn't locked the door behind him.  She thought it was Mark coming back in but it was the killer.

 

Poor little Julie!  She really didn't deserve to die!  Did Bad Cop kill her just to implicate Mark?  I don't know why else he killed her.

 

The shooting in the early case went by so fast I really didn't catch the order the shots were fired.  Since Mark and Angie were lying about what happened I assume the hostage taker did not shoot first but I don't know who did.

 

I didn't like Angie letting Cross in to talk to the tattooed woman and didn't like her brushing aside Vega's concerns.  Because he was right and Mark shouldn't even have been there, never mind allowed in the interview room.

 

Is Vega in love with Angie?  She really is a mess - a good person who makes bad decisions.

 

Anyhow, I'm glad it's been renewed for a third season, hope ABC picks it up again for US viewers.

[basiltherat]

I really, really hate Cross now even more than before.  Sure, we know he was involved with Angie ten years ago, but he hadn't learned his lesson, because he slept with the League boss' girl.  THAT would definitely compromise Sam's case even more than Cross' "character" background with Angie, because it happened during the actual investigation.  Sam was actually going to pull the case out of the crapper by making the immunity deal with the boss -- I really hope that goes through and Sam at least has that.

 

Wish I would have known more about blond bad guy -- we didn't get as much motivation behind him as we usually do with the perps.  Except for the storage locker full o' money and drugs.  And his desire to get rid of scum (what, by becoming one?).

[Trey]

 

but he hadn't learned his lesson, because he slept with the League boss' girl.

 

I meant to mention that too but I forgot - you would think he would have learned by now not to poop where he eats, or whatever that phrase is, but he doesn't appear to have learned a thing.

 

I agree, bad blonde cop just sort of came out of nowhere; I would have liked a little more background story on him.

[Bort]

I really, really hate Cross now even more than before. Sure, we know he was involved with Angie ten years ago, but he hadn't learned his lesson, because he slept with the League boss' girl. THAT would definitely compromise Sam's case even more than Cross' "character" background with Angie, because it happened during the actual investigation.

I kind of figured that was common in an undercover investigation. I imagine Cross got a lot more information from his relationship with the cartel boss's girlfriend than he would've otherwise. And I don't see how it compromised the case at all, the issues with it were the missing evidence and the defense calling his character into question was really just a Hail Mary on their part.

At any rate, I do think Cross might need to try dating outside the work pool, now that his girlfriend is dead. I thought it was pretty sad that he'd bought a ring and was going to propose.

[theatremouse]

So, having seen this, presumably the big thing they were leading up to, I've come to the conclusion that everything that annoyed me about the clunky drawn outness is still valid.

 

I mean, sort of one of the strengths of this show, I think, is that it doesn't really go too far in detail into anything. That's one of the things that works. Enough, but not too much. It gives kind of a sense of things and then flashes to something else, which is a good strategy. Shut up before the writing fails you. All the extra scenes that were plugged in presumably to build to this failed that model.

 

So, the plot of this episode, working very much like the normal episodes except we're more familiar with some of the characters... the initial awkwardness when Cross was introduced, the vague insinuation that he and Angie not only had a relationship but did something and wrong covered it up.... I think that alone, way back when it was first mentioned, would've been enough. Establish he's a dating a prosecutor and something potentially related to his undercover work and the mysterious thing they covered up are relevant to her current casework. That's it. That's all. That was enough to prep for this one episode. We didn't need the hammers, or the absurd will she/won't she testify. Just those few facts established, maybe spread out a bit so it didn't seem out of nowhere or mentioned six episodes and then abruptly brought back, all the other details that we got in the actual plot of this episode including flashbacks, all enough.

 

AND the dead prosecutor would've been more sympathetic because I wouldn't have spent however long being irritated at her for her total lack of logic.

[Beezella]

I thought Angie really was realistic as a younger self, her (WAY more practical!) ponytail and less makeup, and especially her lighter voice really worked for me. Cross looked and sounded exactly the same.

 

I had a little trouble following this episode. It didn't help I kept falling asleep and having to rewind. Also I kept seeing the killer as Holly Hunter's boyfriend from Saving Grace from a few years back. Why did he kill everyone? Dirty cop, stole money. Was that it?

 

The ending was a little heartbreaking for Vega and Angie.  I think Vega has feelings for Angie, and Angie is oblivious. I think she has feelings for him as a partner, but it doesn't go beyond that for her. I am so sick of the work partners on TV always moving to a romantic partnership, but, yikes! Vega is such a dear!

[Trey]

 

Why did he kill everyone? Dirty cop, stole money. Was that it?

That's what I think it was.  I'm pretty sure he killed Julie just to point to Mark, which is really, really sad that she should have died for that.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Trey

[theatremouse]

Prosecutor lady was asking him about discrepancies in the books of the people they were undercover with, implying money was missing, ie killer-guy skimmed some off the top. He tried to pass it off as criminals don't keep tight track and she was all, um, hell no, the opposite. I think the pointing at Mark was just the best way he thought of to deflect suspicion from himself, ie significant others are common first suspects and if it seemed enough like Mark they wouldn't look for anyone else, kind of thing. I don't think it was just about setting up Mark. He didn't seem to have any specific grudges against Mark; just enough ammo to try to set him up to take the blame to cover his own ass.

Edited September 1, 2014 by theatremouse

[Mama No Life]

The scenes with Lucas, Angie and Vega, and any combination of the three, always work for me.  The ones with Cross, with anyone, do not.

[Puffaroo]

 

I think Vega has feelings for Angie, and Angie is oblivious. I think she has feelings for him as a partner, but it doesn't go beyond that for her. I am so sick of the work partners on TV always moving to a romantic partnership, but, yikes! Vega is such a dear!

 

The thing is, proximity will do it, just about every time.  I've seen it happen in real life more times than I care to remember.  And it's not always a good thing.

 

I'm definitely on the Vega train -- he's faboo.  I love the chemistry between the partners, the sarcastic back and forth, and I'd hate to see that compromised.  Please don't put them in a relationship.

 

I'm late to the table on this show; I'm catching up on On Demand.  I sure hope it returns.

[shapeshifter]

Wikipedia says it returns March 8 in Canada, with no news on ABC airings in the U.S.

[Bort]

I'm sure it'll air in the US in the summer, like it has the past two seasons.

[yeswedo]

In the Season 3 premiere, Det. Flynn returns after her self-imposed six-month exile and takes on a sensitive, high-profile homicide case.

[shapeshifter]

I am a very bad fan, because I can't remember why she left.

So Flynn's ex is going out with the ME who's always talking about sex? Interesting choice.

I love the two leads, so I'll watch pretty much anything they do on this show--which is just one of the things that makes it better than CSI Cyber.

[threebluestars]

I love that everyone knew Angie wanted to come back, but they also knew she wasn't going to out and say it. I apparently missed the season 2 finale, so I was totally lost about why she was in recruiting and what happened between her and Vega (... don't particularly care about Cross lol).

 

Who was she in bed with in the beginning?

[Trey]

I am very glad the show is back.  I've missed Vega and Angie.

 

I don't remember all too well either how last season ended - I remember that Angie interrogated a woman when she should not have done so (I forget why) and Vega made it clear he disapproved of it. I guess that's what she meant when she said she didn't like where she was heading and needed a break.  

 

I couldn't see who she was in bed with either; I don't think we were meant to see him clearly.  I hope he's just someone she met outside of work who doesn't really matter, not someone we already know or who works with her.

 

I found the flashbacks as hard to follow as always.  I know it's trite to do flashbacks in black and white but it would make it easier to know when it's a flashback - although having the victim in the scene is kind of a giveaway:)

 

And now Cross is going out with the coroner?  Hasn't he learned to stay away from people he works with?  First Angie, then the lawyer who got killed, now the Lauren Holly character.

 

Is there any word yet if ABC has picked it up for the summer?

[yeswedo]

Struggling to accept Lucas' new position, Angie crosses the line by looking into a closed case.

[Trey]

I don't think Angie's going to the funeral and asking a question or three was too far over the line.  I suspect we'll be seeing Victor Garber again some time this season.

 

Not much Vega this episode.  Wonder if the actor has other stuff going on.

 

The mystery wasn't as compelling as some of them are.  I couldn't really get too invested in the people.  But the actual  motive was a pretty good surprise. And it's always good to see Ally Sheedy.  I loved her crazy character on Psych.  I don't know why she got all those Golden Raspberry nominations.