S06.E09: Fun and Games

[Constantinople]

50 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

BTW, I just noticed that Manuel says his final words to Mike in Spanish. "You gangsters and your justice. You're all the same." Mike had told him his Spanish wasn't very good, so I wonder if Mike understood. I think he generally got the gist of it, but it's curious the writer had Manuel deliver these parting words in Spanish.

Perhaps to reinforce the idea that Manuel and Mike are speaking different languages, metaphorically speaking. What Mike calls justice, Manuel calls revenge.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Constantinople

[qtpye]

23 hours ago, Starchild said:

One thing I'm a little confused about, when Kim breaks up with Jimmy, she says that if she told him about Lalo, three things would happen:

1. Jimmy would want them (or at least her) to hide until she could be safe
2. while hiding, they would have to drop the con against Howard
3. they would break up

I can see how 1 & 2 make sense with Lalo at large, but I'm not exactly sure what she means with 3. 

Which of them is she thinkin would initiate the breakup in this scenario?

Does she mean Jimmy would break up with her? Why? Because she lied about Lalo? Doesn't seem likely. I think she knows Jimmy would value their relationship more than that.

Or does she mean that she would break up with Jimmy? Again, why? Because he would force the cessation of the con against Howard? Was she so fixated on destroying Howard at that moment that she would break up her marriage to do so? As wild a thought as that is, it seems more likely than Jimmy leaving her in that scenario.

23 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

Good point though I'm not sure the two are mutually exclusive.  She loves scamming and they're never closer than when they're scamming.  She didn't pick Howard as a target because she couldn't get on board and love the grift.  She deliberately picked it because they both enjoy it and it would bond them -- and it did as 607 showed.  However, I'm not sure the impetus was the grifting so much as solving a problem with the relationship.

22 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

This may sound kind of dopey and obvious, but I wonder, given the flashback with her mother, if the scamming isn't some kind of love language for Kim. She sees it as a way of pleasing the one she loves and is afraid that if she doesn't have that she won't have a way of connecting to that person. So, as a preemptive strike, feeling their connection is gone, she would break up with Jimmy. The scamming IS the relationship for her, her way of both showing and receiving love. I dunno. Just a thought.

I really love everyone's thoughtful analysis.  I agree that scamming is part of Kim's love language and she feels a closeness with Jimmy while scamming that she has never felt with anyone in her life.

She associates their scams with a kinship of them against a world of privileged rich assholes and they are standing up for the little guy. She obviously gets a great dopamine rush with a successful scam and like most addicts, pushed it further until it got dangerous.

However, when you take a look at their life without the scamming, it is quite boring and they seem not to have much of a connection. They are no longer two superhero vigilantes. Instead, Kim is in a dull world where she is with a man that most consider way beneath her.

She loves Jimmy but without the scams, she does not LOVE being with him.

Here is a montage that leads me to this conclusion.

[gallimaufry]

19 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I really love everyone's thoughtful analysis.  I agree that scamming is part of Kim's love language and she feels a closeness with Jimmy while scamming that she has never felt with anyone in her life.

She associates their scams with a kinship of them against a world of privileged rich assholes and they are standing up for the little guy. She obviously gets a great dopamine rush with a successful scam and like most addicts, pushed it further until it got dangerous.

However, when you take a look at their life without the scamming, it is quite boring and they seem not to have much of a connection. They are no longer two superhero vigilantes. Instead, Kim is in a dull world where she is with a man that most consider way beneath her.

She loves Jimmy but without the scams, she does not LOVE being with him.

Here is a montage that leads me to this conclusion.

Although clearly she loves the slippin' side of Jimmy and that is the thing that accelerates their relationship, I like to think that it's not only that part of Jimmy that she loves.  Maybe this is just me being romantic as I think your conclusion is actually quite strong, but I still think there is some reason to think her love is broader than just being attracted to the scamming:

- In this scenario, the wedge has been created by both of them dealing with life-changing decisions -- Kim going to S&C and Jimmy becoming Saul the cellphone guy.  But Jimmy is still not being honest about... well, anything really... and so I don't think you can nail the distance shown in this montage to Kim.

- I always read Kim's green stressball matched against Jimmy's green tracksuit top as a colour-coding to suggest that she still has Jimmy as her stressor.  However, an equally plausible reading given the green wrapping paper of the Mesa Verde statuettes is that green represents money and this shows that she's just squeezing out money without feeling committed just as Jimmy is simply seeking money.

- There are times -- not as many, but some -- where they connect deeply without a scam being involved.  When he passes the bar, when she intercedes with Howard on Jimmy's behalf in 109, when she agrees to the office in 207 even while explicitly rejecting associating with Jimmy's "colourful" brand of lawyering.

- She takes drastic steps to defend their relationship, not least proposing marriage.

Also, while a lot is made of Kim being "too good" for Jimmy, she's actually a difficult person in many ways.  The only friend we really know about is Paige and this seems to be still chiefly a professional relationship.  She finds it very difficult to express emotions and seems capable of deceiving even herself about her motives.  She is a workaholic and has to be reminded when she identifies the "best day of [her] life" that she means her "professional life".  She intimidates a lot of people, even those who quite admire her such as Francesca and Viola and she is in a profession where she will meet a lot of rich, high-status of the sort she naturally dislikes.  Clearly she has many more options than just Jimmy but I still don't think she falls in love easily or often and I can understand why she would be highly reluctant to give Jimmy up.  (Indeed, I'll be fascinated to see if when we reconnect with Kim -- as I fully expect we will -- there will be another romantic interest in her life.)

Ultimately, I do think there's a world where Jimmy could do nothing more colourful than wear loud suits and do some cheeky stunts with outrageous accents to gain clients among the elders and yet he and Kim could be extremely happy together.  It's Jimmy's insecurities that push them apart in S4 and his wish to stick it to Howard and the legal community by representing Lalo in 507 that ultimately brings hell down upon both their heads.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Perhaps to reinforce the idea that Manuel and Mike are speaking different languages, metaphorically speaking. 

And also to send the message that Mike isn't worth the effort of translating his thoughts into another language.  

35 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

Although clearly she loves the slippin' side of Jimmy and that is the thing that accelerates their relationship, I like to think that it's not only that part of Jimmy that she loves.  Maybe this is just me being romantic as I think your conclusion is actually quite strong, but I still think there is some reason to think her love is broader than just being attracted to the scamming: 

Yes, I agree with this.  Kim's attraction to the scam was very real, but it was not the whole story.  They could have written Kim as the most well-adjusted person in the world who got caught up by the thrill of the scam.  (I am reminded of the main character of the Stephen King story Apt Pupil.)  Instead they took the time to show us Kim's very unhealthy upbringing.  Kim and Jimmy are two very flawed, damaged people, but in ways that make them a perfect match.   

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

 I ended up "watching" this video with my eyes closed.  Courtney's, on the other hand, are very "user-friendly."  

Yes, Courtney's videos very easy on the eyes.   😉

Edited July 23, 2022 by PeterPirate

[peeayebee]

😆 Not exactly what I meant.

[BC4ME]

36 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

And also to send the message that Mike isn't worth the effort of translating his thoughts into another language.  

Another interpretation could be that when strong emotion is felt, ones native language may be the natural choice to express it best.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

Although clearly she loves the slippin' side of Jimmy and that is the thing that accelerates their relationship, I like to think that it's not only that part of Jimmy that she loves.  Maybe this is just me being romantic as I think your conclusion is actually quite strong, but I still think there is some reason to think her love is broader than just being attracted to the scamming:

Overall, I agree but I don't think Kim has discovered it as of yet.

I think some distance will make her realize that she and Jimmy have something much deeper than running cons.

However, at the time immediately before and after Howard's death, she still does not get it. Otherwise, I do not know why she would say that they would break up if they did not go through with the scam on Howard.

Edited July 23, 2022 by qtpye

[ShadowFacts]

3 minutes ago, BC4ME said:

Another interpretation could be that when strong emotion is felt, ones native language may be the natural choice to express it best.

Mr. Varga had zero respect for Mike and anything he had to say, so no courtesies are extended. I did wonder in that scene why Mike decided not to tell him that Nacho had shot himself. Trying to spare him further grief? It's relevant to a survivor of loss. The worst has happened, his boy is gone, so why not the whole truth?

[wendyg]

5 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

In this scenario, the wedge has been created by both of them dealing with life-changing decisions -- Kim going to S&C and Jimmy becoming Saul the cellphone guy.  But Jimmy is still not being honest about... well, anything really... and so I don't think you can nail the distance shown in this montage to Kim.

She's squeezing the ball to regab her arm after getting the cast off, Ithought.

[SunnyBeBe]

On 7/21/2022 at 11:54 AM, ShadowFacts said:

Maybe he was regretful in the moment, but that he could have walked away seems doubtful to me. We have seen what happens when people try to leave. I don't think he could just revert to Chicken Man status. He is too entrenched with meth production and with Madrigal.  Disappearing would be the only option and maybe he has the means to do that better than Nacho, but he's too recognizable from his business in New Mexico, to be successful for long.  See also Jimmy/Saul.

But she pretty much is a bad human being. Good humans don't do what she did to Howard, who paid for the legal education of a mail room employee. For fun.  She recognizes that and is punishing herself accordingly.

My criminal law courses are in the distant past, but she recently attempted at least conspiracy to commit homicide, but there is no proof and if there was prosecution, she would have a good coercion defense. She was also involved in drugging Howard with whatever caused his reactions before the Sandpiper settlement meeting. I cannot remember any Mesa Verde details, but she might have been party to some crime there. Participating in taking steps toward a crime leave a person open to conspiracy charges.

I’ve thought about this.  If the Mediation was court ordered, and I think it was, they could be charged with a fraud upon the court. Then there’s making false report to the police, concealment of a corpse and aid and abetting after the fact of a murder.   I would think the duress and doing something in the defense of her husband would shield her from charges regarding going to Gus’s house. 

[Ailianna]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

Mr. Varga had zero respect for Mike and anything he had to say, so no courtesies are extended. I did wonder in that scene why Mike decided not to tell him that Nacho had shot himself. Trying to spare him further grief? It's relevant to a survivor of loss. The worst has happened, his boy is gone, so why not the whole truth?

Mike could be presuming the Vargas may be Catholic. If they are, suicide is a mortal sin from which there is no chance to gain absolution, so Nacho would be automatically sent to hell. So, depending on his religious beliefs, death might not actually be the worst thing.

[Starchild]

On 7/22/2022 at 12:14 AM, Lalo Lives said:

Moochass graciolis for the time jump link. Helpful.

How did these stickers work in the NM of the early 2000s? Were they for one year at time of issue? Could they be longer?

The article states

"This expiry date narrows down the closing scene of "Fun & Games" to between November 2004 and November 2005, approximately 5-17 months since Kim scuppered their relationship. Given how drastically Jimmy's life has changed - his home, his car, his place of work, etc. - the time jump likely ground to a halt somewhere down the latter end of that range."

However, I was watching some of the earlier episodes and we also see the sticker on Howard's plate when Jimmy steals the car. It is DEC 05.

Now, Howard definitely is the type to keep his sticker current, so assuming Jimmy kept his current as well, and that the stickers were renewed annually, then that time jump wasn't very long at all. 

[gallimaufry]

6 hours ago, wendyg said:

She's squeezing the ball to regab her arm after getting the cast off, Ithought.

Good point.  (Does this mean some stuff isn't subtext? 😂)

10 hours ago, qtpye said:

Overall, I agree but I don't think Kim has discovered it as of yet.

I think some distance will make her realize that she and Jimmy have something much deeper than running cons.

However, at the time immediately before and after Howard's death, she still does not get it. Otherwise, I do not know why she would say that they would break up if they did not go through with the scam on Howard.

Hmmm... really interesting and quite possible.

I feel like the break-up was something she felt Jimmy would initiate in the interests of saving her from her bad influence.  But she also says she doesn't want to break up because of the "fun". 

3 hours ago, Starchild said:

Now, Howard definitely is the type to keep his sticker current, so assuming Jimmy kept his current as well, and that the stickers were renewed annually, then that time jump wasn't very long at all. 

I'm not sure it necessarily matters too much for the narrative as long as we understand it's some time after Kim leaves but a couple of years before Walter White.  Once the Sandpiper money comes through, I can imagine Jimmy in his rage very quickly blowing it on his Xanadu mansion, the office de-decoration and taking up his prostitute clients on their offers.  We're obviously talking at least some months but I don't think any of these changes require a year or more.

I am surprised though, given that it's a relatively short jump, that they did the public masturbator comment.  This felt like such a clear signpost that it was 2008 and I didn't see anything obvious to contradict that. 

[peeayebee]

5 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

I feel like the break-up was something she felt Jimmy would initiate in the interests of saving her from her bad influence.  But she also says she doesn't want to break up because of the "fun". 

I don't know why I was so stuck on believing that Kim was saying SHE would break up with Jimmy if he insisted they drop the scam (to hide from Lalo). It does make sense that Kim feared Jimmy would initiate the breakup to save her from him. I don't see her comment re 'fun' as contradicting that.

5 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

Once the Sandpiper money comes through, I can imagine Jimmy in his rage very quickly blowing it on his Xanadu mansion...

The Sandpiper money (over $1M) is a lot, but as you said, it seems that Jimmy would have spent it all on his mansion and lifestyle. Just everything over-the-top and "the best" money could buy. I have a question about his clientele. I just don't remember. We see him with clients who obviously don't have much money, but do we know that during this time (pre-BB) if he has cartel clients? Or if not from the cartel (which I guess not), then just someone with lots of ill-gotten money?

[SunnyBeBe]

36 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I don't know why I was so stuck on believing that Kim was saying SHE would break up with Jimmy if he insisted they drop the scam (to hide from Lalo). It does make sense that Kim feared Jimmy would initiate the breakup to save her from him. I don't see her comment re 'fun' as contradicting that.

The Sandpiper money (over $1M) is a lot, but as you said, it seems that Jimmy would have spent it all on his mansion and lifestyle. Just everything over-the-top and "the best" money could buy. I have a question about his clientele. I just don't remember. We see him with clients who obviously don't have much money, but do we know that during this time (pre-BB) if he has cartel clients? Or if not from the cartel (which I guess not), then just someone with lots of ill-gotten money?

I would expect the routine criminal cases might mean $10,000. -20,000.00 in fees for many felonies, but the personal injuries might be upwards of $100,000.00 in fees based on 1/3 contingency fee. Pretty good if there’s volume, but not nearly the sums from large drug cases. 

[Starchild]

Maybe he blows all the Sandpiper money on his personal home, but has to downgrade the office to make ends meet after that.

So the cartel money, or at least Walter White's, comes along just in time.

[gallimaufry]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

The Sandpiper money (over $1M) is a lot, but as you said, it seems that Jimmy would have spent it all on his mansion and lifestyle. Just everything over-the-top and "the best" money could buy. I have a question about his clientele. I just don't remember. We see him with clients who obviously don't have much money, but do we know that during this time (pre-BB) if he has cartel clients? Or if not from the cartel (which I guess not), then just someone with lots of ill-gotten money?

We know from BB he does take cartel-adjacent cases such as Spooge and Krazy-8 (beyond the one time we saw) and, indeed, Jesse and Walt.  But I doubt he'd make particularly more money from these.  Ericsson identified his strategy in, I think, 502 as just churning through clients for profit so even if the individual clients aren't that profitable, he probably makes a good living.

Actually, what's interesting is that if the mansion we saw being cleared in 601 was purely bought on pre-BB money, we still don't know where his BB money went.  I imagine Gene's diamonds are going to factor into this at some point.

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

I am surprised though, given that it's a relatively short jump, that they did the public masturbator comment.  This felt like such a clear signpost that it was 2008 and I didn't see anything obvious to contradict that. 

It could just be a joke about public masturbators always being with us, and always being part of Jimmy's clientele. Like his most common client.

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I don't know why I was so stuck on believing that Kim was saying SHE would break up with Jimmy if he insisted they drop the scam (to hide from Lalo). It does make sense that Kim feared Jimmy would initiate the breakup to save her from him. I don't see her comment re 'fun' as contradicting that.

That's what it sounded like to me too. There's just something about the whole speech that makes it seem like the breakup would be on her side or mutual, like things would just die. She says he'd stop the scam, not just that he'd break up with her to protect her because Lalo was alive. He'd stop the scam and then they'd break up, like the two things are linked, but the latter is a result of the former.

[ShadowFacts]

7 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

I feel like the break-up was something she felt Jimmy would initiate in the interests of saving her from her bad influence.  But she also says she doesn't want to break up because of the "fun". 

Yes, I think she would have thought that, but I don't think he was on the same page, he made no indication of it after the horrible Howard event.  She also must recognize that there isn't much fun in being in the sights of brutal criminals.  This is not at all like running scams on equals or people who don't know what hit them.

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That's what it sounded like to me too. There's just something about the whole speech that makes it seem like the breakup would be on her side or mutual, like things would just die. She says he'd stop the scam, not just that he'd break up with her to protect her because Lalo was alive. He'd stop the scam and then they'd break up, like the two things are linked, but the latter is a result of the former.

I agree with this.  The breakup would have been mutual, but with a little more agency on her side.  When they were in the hotel room after the first visit from Lalo, Jimmy asked Kim if he was bad for her.  He left it up to Kim to answer the question.  

And Kim concocted the scheme against Howard in order to avoid answering the question.  

Edited July 24, 2022 by PeterPirate

[peeayebee]

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I would expect the routine criminal cases might mean $10,000. -20,000.00 in fees for many felonies, but the personal injuries might be upwards of $100,000.00 in fees based on 1/3 contingency fee. 

OK, I'm confused. How would a hooker, say, have even $10,000 to pay Saul? Personal injury cases I can see (and had forgotten about those).

3 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

Ericsson identified his strategy in, I think, 502 as just churning through clients for profit so even if the individual clients aren't that profitable, he probably makes a good living.

Ah, so high-volume business would bring in the dough. I can see that.

Quote

Actually, what's interesting is that if the mansion we saw being cleared in 601 was purely bought on pre-BB money, we still don't know where his BB money went.  I imagine Gene's diamonds are going to factor into this at some point.

Didn't we see Saul breaking the wall of his office and pulling out boxes of money? 

[SunnyBeBe]

26 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

OK, I'm confused. How would a hooker, say, have even $10,000 to pay Saul? Personal injury cases I can see (and had forgotten about those).

Ah, so high-volume business would bring in the dough. I can see that.

Didn't we see Saul breaking the wall of his office and pulling out boxes of money? 

Lol Surprisingly, people come up with legal fees if they are very invested in avoiding prison time.  They figure a way to get the funds.  If the defendant is unemployed or has no reportable income, they can apply for a court appointed attorney.  It’s at a lower rate. If you win, you pay no legal fees. If you plead guilty or are found guilty, you may have to pay something towards attorney fees.  The state pays the attorney on a reduced hourly rate.  Kim did a fair amount of court appointed cases.  The public defender’s office doesn’t usually get all indigent cases.  It wouldn’t make Saul rich, though.  

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Lol Surprisingly, people come up with legal fees if they are very invested in avoiding prison time.  They figure a way to get the funds.  If the defendant is unemployed or has no reportable income, they can apply for a court appointed attorney.  It’s at a lower rate. If you win, you pay no legal fees. If you plead guilty or are found guilty, you may have to pay something towards attorney fees.  The state pays the attorney on a reduced hourly rate.  Kim did a fair amount of court appointed cases.  The public defender’s office doesn’t usually get all indigent cases.  It wouldn’t make Saul rich, though.  

So is Paul kind of doing a version of what Kim wanted to do? That is, he makes money off shady dealings with cartels etc., but also defends people who don't have the money for fancy attorneys? Sure many of them might be guilty, but there must be good people there too.

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

OK, I'm confused. How would a hooker, say, have even $10,000 to pay Saul? Personal injury cases I can see (and had forgotten about those).

Ah, so high-volume business would bring in the dough. I can see that.

Didn't we see Saul breaking the wall of his office and pulling out boxes of money? 

You should see how much it costs to deal with a DUI. People find the money.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Well if anyone's taking a vote, I think the sommelier was flirting with Gus and Gus was enjoying it until he had an attack of guilt. I also thought that moment of hearing the taste of a certain rare wine described as bloody was where Gus got the initial idea of how to get rid of Don Eladio and the cartel. Of course it was going to take a lot more of the meticulous planning Gus does but IMO this was when he saw elite alcohol with a unique flavor as an excellent poison delivery vehicle.

Quote

Why do I keep seeing this in this thread? Is spellcheck going rogue? 🤣

I think looking for perfect grammar and spelling in an informal online discussion site such as PTV probably = a bad time. At least no one in this thread has decided to refer to the characters by completely different names.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Joimiaroxeu
spelling how does it work

[peeayebee]

Gusvid. (Gus + David)

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

So is Paul kind of doing a version of what Kim wanted to do? That is, he makes money off shady dealings with cartels etc., but also defends people who don't have the money for fancy attorneys? Sure many of them might be guilty, but there must be good people there too.

He hasn't yet seen the error of his ways.  So he's still Saul.  😇

Edited July 24, 2022 by PeterPirate

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

He hasn't yet seen the error of his ways.  So he's still Saul.  

LOL. I was going to ask who Paul was. And then realized I should be asking my keyboard.

[Dev F]

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That's what it sounded like to me too. There's just something about the whole speech that makes it seem like the breakup would be on her side or mutual, like things would just die. She says he'd stop the scam, not just that he'd break up with her to protect her because Lalo was alive. He'd stop the scam and then they'd break up, like the two things are linked, but the latter is a result of the former.

Which makes sense to me, because one of the things Kim is most repulsed by is someone else martyring themselves to rescue poor, helpless Kim. "You don't save me. I save me." Jimmy would've put a stop to the scam primarily because he wouldn't be able to handle the idea of something happening to his wife or the guilt that it happened because of his stupid choices. And as much as Kim would probably want to be okay with that, she knows she'd end up resenting him for it.

[scenario]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

LOL. I was going to ask who Paul was. And then realized I should be asking my keyboard.

The traditional path is Saul turns into Paul. I guess it went the other way around this time. /s

[Eulipian 5k]

(Fīat jūstitia ruat cælum is a Latin legal phrase, meaning "Let justice be done though the heavens fall." The maxim signifies the belief that justice must be realized regardless of consequences.) - as per der Google.

The maxim seems a lot more like Karma, than what these characters were looking for.

What ever "justice" Kim was seeking in the Howard scam sure brought the heavens down on all involved.

And Mike's pursuit of "justice" for the 'Good Samaritan' brought him into Gus' world and his descent.

[Starchild]

Oh yeah that guy. That was all kinds of awful

[anoninrva]

On 7/18/2022 at 10:25 PM, Sharper2002 said:

Assuming this is the end of Gus and Mike? I know some might not like it, but I was riveted by Gus and his conversation with the waiter. I guess it’s because it was one of the few times we see him having a conversation with someone without it being transactional and he was trying to bring a sense of normalcy back into his life.  But he realized the last person he let in was shot in the head and promptly left. Also, interesting Don Eladio saw only hate in his eyes, but was arrogant enough to think him being the boss meant he could control him. 

I am a week behind on the show, so perhaps others have already covered this, but I was wondering if they were hinting at perhaps a romantic relationship between Gus and the sommelier?  Maybe it was simple friendship, and he fears pulling in anyone outside of "the game"?

[peeayebee]

4 minutes ago, anoninrva said:

I was wondering if they were hinting at perhaps a romantic relationship between Gus and the sommelier?  Maybe it was simple friendship, and he fears pulling in anyone outside of "the game"?

They were definitely hinting at it. As you suggested, when David (the sommelier) stepped away, Gus seemed to realize that he couldn't have a relationship with anyone because of his dangerous life. He was focused on revenge and wouldn't give that up for anyone.

[PeterPirate]

6 minutes ago, anoninrva said:

I am a week behind on the show, so perhaps others have already covered this, but I was wondering if they were hinting at perhaps a romantic relationship between Gus and the sommelier?  Maybe it was simple friendship, and he fears pulling in anyone outside of "the game"?

That is the general consensus.  I'm more skeptical of the notion that David was flirting with Gus.  He may have just been chatting up a high-end customer to get him to buy more wine.  

On 7/18/2022 at 7:12 PM, PeterPirate said:

At least Kim broke good at the end.  

And she stopped wearing the earrings.  

Alas, it turns out I was wrong.  Courtney corrected me about the earrings.  They are hard to see them in freeze-frame, but in real-time the light reflects off them for split-seconds.  

[anoninrva]

9 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

That is the general consensus.  I'm more skeptical of the notion that David was flirting with Gus.  He may have just been chatting up a high-end customer to get him to buy more wine.  

I think there could have been some intentional ambiguity there - it does seem like from one perspective, it's pretty easy to see Gus as a whale customer, but the connection felt more personal.  Whether or not either character may be gay isn't really spelled out, but I can't think of any other conclusion for Gus.  Inviting yourself over to your customers house seems to break that paradigm, though.

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, anoninrva said:

whale customer

I've learned a new phrase!

[Lalo Lives]

Don’t know exactly where to put this, so I guess this is as good as any.

Jimmy and Kim’s scams and schemes have been FOR A PURPOSE or for simply the JOY of DOING IT.

One  would be the End Justifies the Means, while the other would be the Means Justify The Ends.

Does either of them (Kim or Jimmy) enjoy or “get off” more than the other in either type of scheme?
It would seem Kim gets a rush from just doing them mostly. But with Howard’s takedown, it seemed that for her the planned end was the goal; with the thrill of the planning being gravy.

Seems Jimmy likes doing them with Kim because it makes her happy. But with others he simply has a goal and the scheming (particularly his solo runs) are just tools. He may get a small bit of satisfaction at the execution of his craft. But not the hormone rush Kim gets. Sure, he participates in the afterparty, as it were.

But he could just as easily grin to himself and watch Where Eagles Dare as do the bumpin uglies thing.

Maybe I’m just trying to categorize their individual motivations.

———————-

Also, as one who enjoys doing elaborate pranks, I have found I have been so impressed with my “genius” that I fail to predict the ultimate outcome. And sometimes peoples feelings get hurt. Kind of a small scale, non-murderous version of Jimmy and Kim’s final scheme.

[SimplexFish]

23 hours ago, anoninrva said:

I am a week behind on the show, so perhaps others have already covered this, but I was wondering if they were hinting at perhaps a romantic relationship between Gus and the sommelier?  Maybe it was simple friendship, and he fears pulling in anyone outside of "the game"?

https://screenrant.com/gus-fring-gay-better-call-saul-breaking-bad-confirmed/?_gl=1*t5nl7s*_ga*cnluQ1dxY2Rad05RbWUtTG5na2FXWjVvcjdoVkZ1dHcwd1ZtRXV5ZG5CbGFUeEtYczhydkVySEZYRndhX0JqUA..

[peeayebee]

12 hours ago, Lalo Lives said:

Also, as one who enjoys doing elaborate pranks, I have found I have been so impressed with my “genius” that I fail to predict the ultimate outcome. And sometimes peoples feelings get hurt. Kind of a small scale, non-murderous version of Jimmy and Kim’s final scheme.

Good to know. :)

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

Thats the way I see them, Sauls scams/schemes "needs" to be done for his gain or self preservation ie the Jeff scheme we just saw in 06/10. Kim is just evil and does them for the sheer fact of getting her rocks off by hurting someone. 

[SimplexFish]

^^^ Yeah...that's the reason! 😁

Edited July 27, 2022 by SimplexFish

[gallimaufry]

4 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

Thats the way I see them, Sauls scams/schemes "needs" to be done for his gain or self preservation ie the Jeff scheme we just saw in 06/10. Kim is just evil and does them for the sheer fact of getting her rocks off by hurting someone. 

Jimmy's scams are for himself and only very rarely for someone else (almost exclusively Kim but also Chuck in that Rebecca flashback).  Kim's scams are almost exclusively for other people - even the Sandpiper settlement was framed by her as a method of helping her clients.  

I'm kind of reminded of the scene in 505 between Gus and Mike: Mike asks if the good he has done is expected to make up for all the bad and Gus responds something like, "It makes up for nothing.  I am what I am."  Mike ultimately came to understand that futility of this scale-balancing approach when faced with Manuel.  Jimmy in 207(?) admitted to Kim that he would always be "colourful".  Kim's realisation is much like Mike's.

[PeterPirate]

On 7/26/2022 at 7:12 AM, anoninrva said:

I think there could have been some intentional ambiguity there - it does seem like from one perspective, it's pretty easy to see Gus as a whale customer, but the connection felt more personal.  Whether or not either character may be gay isn't really spelled out, but I can't think of any other conclusion for Gus.  Inviting yourself over to your customers house seems to break that paradigm, though.

I don't doubt that Gus was gay, nor that he had pitch-perfect gaydar.  I just think David's line "I'm looking to hearing about it when you have that special occasion" was a polite and professional brush-off.  For all we know he was already in a relationship, or maybe he just wanted to maintain a proper separation between his personal life and his professional life.  Gus thought there was a possible romance before he decided to walk away.  So who knows.

***** 

Also, I'm now ready to conclude that the sticker on the license plate was a technical error, and the public masturbator was indeed the same one Saul mistook for Badger.  I also just checked, and when Walt walks into Saul's office for the first time, the background music is "America the Beautiful".  In this episode it's "Battle Hymn of the Republic".  

Edited July 28, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Lalo Lives]

For me the whole “is Gus gay” thing is just a device by the G&G crowd.

It causes interest. The ambiguity lingers. It creates a more important connection with Max.

It shows us Gus’ reason for his fury.

Gus’ orientation is simply a tool similar to the use of colors in clothing. (Blue for good. Red for bad.) Certainly not exactly the same, just kind of similar. It points our minds toward his affection for Max. And therefore it gives us a clue as to his motivation for revenge.

BCS has largely stayed away from social issues: race, women’s rights, etc. Perhaps the Mesa Verde logo thing with the artist was the only foray into the oppression of a particular group. And that was not heartfelt. Just a tactic by Jimmy.

Had the person killed by Hector been Gus’ business partner AND girlfriend or wife, the ambiguity would not be there. But we would understand his need to avenge the death. But the simmering curiosity not would be there.

With this “gay not gay” thing, the G&G posse has made us more alert to Gus’ movements, actions, and motivations.

[peeayebee]

I can't see this plot line working with a woman. For one thing, we wouldn't have Los Pollos Hermanos.  

I think having Gus be gay adds a lot of dimension. Hector makes homophobic remarks, making him even more despicable, even if he doesn't really know about Gus's love for Max. Gus's orientation also reinforces his outsider status and is just one more thing he needs to keep hidden.

[gallimaufry]

I think Gus' sexuality makes perfect sense and I don't feel they ever tried to make it ambiguous - Lalo explicitly calls Max Gus' boyfriend in 501.

(I've always appreciated that BCS isn't a show that particularly lingers on sexuality as it's not something I think is always done well.  Jimmy and Kim getting together from the poolside euphoria to the toothbrush finger is as sexy as anything on either show but is not in the least bit explicit.  Actually, on "Breaking Bad", I thought the sexual content from the handjob in 101 to the rape scene in 201 veered between the tacky and the mistaken.  They probably dialled it back for network reasons as far as I can tell - the number of swears diminishes too and the violence becomes a little more restrained - but I do think early on Vince Gilligan was happy to go down the shock route of pouring in as much blood and sex and violence as he could muster and somewhere during BB he realised that sometimes less can be more.)

Jjust pragmatically, I'm not sure in the macho world of the cartel, a female cook would have been taken seriously.  A gay couple could hide or muddy the issue of their true relationship and rise up.  Therefore the backstory works better for me.  Moreover, at Gus' age and with his background, being closeted would be second nature and it creates another layer of his need to hide in plain sight.

What is intriguing and what I really hope they address is the reference to his kids in BB.  On the one hand, it could simply be misdirection.  But by this point in BB, I'm fairly sure they would have known he was gay and there's no sign as of this point in BB of him acquiring a "beard".  The thing is, while he could just have lied about the kids, it's the sort of lie that seems pointless unless it's part of a consistent backstory -- and I can see the image he's projecting would benefit from appearing to be a family man.  On the other hand, having a wife and kids -- even fake ones -- is a huge liability for him so I don't see how he could.

(Overall though, this debate just underlines for me what a mistake it has been to try to keep Gus' mystique at the expense of character development.  If we followed this approach with Mike, we'd never have had "Five-O" and obviously our view of Saul has been fundamentally recast over the years.  Gus is the only character where they seem to be afraid to break the china and while I understand the urge to play it safe, I'm not sure it's ultimately benefitted them.)

[Lalo Lives]

5 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I can't see this plot line working with a woman. For one thing, we wouldn't have Los Pollos Hermanos.  

I think having Gus be gay adds a lot of dimension. Hector makes homophobic remarks, making him even more despicable, even if he doesn't really know about Gus's love for Max. Gus's orientation also reinforces his outsider status and is just one more thing he needs to keep hidden.

GPH

4 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

I think Gus' sexuality makes perfect sense and I don't feel they ever tried to make it ambiguous - Lalo explicitly calls Max Gus' boyfriend in 501.

(I've always appreciated that BCS isn't a show that particularly lingers on sexuality as it's not something I think is always done well.  Jimmy and Kim getting together from the poolside euphoria to the toothbrush finger is as sexy as anything on either show but is not in the least bit explicit.  Actually, on "Breaking Bad", I thought the sexual content from the handjob in 101 to the rape scene in 201 veered between the tacky and the mistaken.  They probably dialled it back for network reasons as far as I can tell - the number of swears diminishes too and the violence becomes a little more restrained - but I do think early on Vince Gilligan was happy to go down the shock route of pouring in as much blood and sex and violence as he could muster and somewhere during BB he realised that sometimes less can be more.)

Jjust pragmatically, I'm not sure in the macho world of the cartel, a female cook would have been taken seriously.  A gay couple could hide or muddy the issue of their true relationship and rise up.  Therefore the backstory works better for me.  Moreover, at Gus' age and with his background, being closeted would be second nature and it creates another layer of his need to hide in plain sight.

What is intriguing and what I really hope they address is the reference to his kids in BB.  On the one hand, it could simply be misdirection.  But by this point in BB, I'm fairly sure they would have known he was gay and there's no sign as of this point in BB of him acquiring a "beard".  The thing is, while he could just have lied about the kids, it's the sort of lie that seems pointless unless it's part of a consistent backstory -- and I can see the image he's projecting would benefit from appearing to be a family man.  On the other hand, having a wife and kids -- even fake ones -- is a huge liability for him so I don't see how he could.

(Overall though, this debate just underlines for me what a mistake it has been to try to keep Gus' mystique at the expense of character development.  If we followed this approach with Mike, we'd never have had "Five-O" and obviously our view of Saul has been fundamentally recast over the years.  Gus is the only character where they seem to be afraid to break the china and while I understand the urge to play it safe, I'm not sure it's ultimately benefitted them.)

GPH also

[peeayebee]

GPH?

[Lalo Lives]

17 hours ago, peeayebee said:

GPH?

Good Points Here.

I’m a hip teen. I know all the lingo.

swell.

keen.

bees knees.

neato.

golly gosh.

gat. heater. slap leather. grab iron.

I invented et cetera, the ampersand, the schwa, 11, and papyrus.

DEATHLY afraid of sending a unicorn or rainbow or eggplant or pineapple or teddy bear when I just want to indicate ‘valid point’ or ‘well said.’

plus GPH is easy to spell AND remember.

So don’t give me any more lip or I’ll sock you.