S07.E13: The Slice Girls

[Demented Daisy]

Sam and Dean go up against the Amazons as they go on a killing spree. But it's twice as difficult for Dean because one of them is his daughter.

 

 

This is one of those weird episodes that I have absolutely no feelings about.  I think I'm supposed to, though.

 

Wait, isn't this the one when Sam brings up Amy?  *sigh*  So disappointing.  Why must the show hold on to this stuff for the sake of cheap drama?

[catrox14]

Yeah this one is weird. It bothered me that they tried to equate Amy and Emma but I don't think it really is equivalent.  Emma was Dean's flesh and blood and part monster, so I could kind of understand Dean's hesitation to kill her just like he hesitated to kill Sam in the past when Sam was skirting the edges of evil and monster.  Sam saying he did what Dean couldn't do didn't really make any sense to me because Dean might still have killed her. If anything they should have compared her to Madison whom Sam did love but then they would have to remember canon...

 

s8 spoilers

(And talk about not letting things go. He's still bringing up Amy in s8!!

)

[supposebly]

The only point that I get about this is the sentiment that they do the hard things for each other when the other isn't able because he is too close (Dean's daughter, Sam's childhood friend).

 

I think in that sense, it's comparable. Other than that, not so much.

 

I do like how Sam keeps teasing Dean about calling her back until it becomes apparent that he is on the list of guys to be killed.

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, not a huge fan of this one. I agree with your assessment @supposedly, the comparison wasn't to the monster itself, but to how they both do the hard work for each other at times.

 

I find I don't care for this one largely because it feels so damn talky. They stand around and talk about everything and the only time they aren't is the montage of the sex scene and the murder and even then I'm bored. Neither seemed sexy or violent enough for what they wanted it to be. Usually these talky episodes at least have a delightful character I can enjoy, but I barely remember any character from this episode. I'm sorry Mr. Wanek, you do some delightful and whacky work with the sets, but you didn't wow me as a director. Now I feel dirty and need to go wash my hands.

 

I also have a loathing for the main lead has sex with a monster and now has a monster baby to deal with troupe. Maybe it's not a troupe, but it seems like every genre show does at least one episode where their main character spawns a monster baby that is either shown to not be a monster or becomes a monster because of it's nature, but by the end of the episode the spawn dies and everything is reset back to status quo. Parenting is never that simple, IMO.

 

I still am confused how the child was conceived if Dean used protection, though. And I never understood the Amazon's choice of "successful" men to add to their gene pool. But whatever.

[Amerilla]

Maybe it's not a troupe, but it seems like every genre show does at least one episode where their main character spawns a monster baby that is either shown to not be a monster or becomes a monster because of it's nature, but by the end of the episode the spawn dies and everything is reset back to status quo. Parenting is never that simple, IMO.

 

...Although I have to applaud the efficiency of a 12-hour pregnancy and a 24-hour childhood. If we all could do that, women would TOTALLY rule the world. :-)

At least it wasn't the other sorta-trope: male pregnancy.*

 

Otherwise, yeah, this was one of those eps I spent playing Candy Crush, with one eye on the screen.

 

*That said: I just googled it, and there is an academic paper looking at male pregnancy in SPN fan fiction. http://goo.gl/iCzdG

[DittyDotDot]

Still amazes me the things that get "studied" on this show. Pink flower shirts, red plaid shirts and now this...too damned funny!

[catrox14]

My takeaway from this episode is the outtake of Jensen getting all tangled up in his shirt during the sex scene. That just makes me laugh a stupid amount

[AwesomO4000]

Emma was Dean's flesh and blood and part monster, so I could kind of understand Dean's hesitation to kill her just like he hesitated to kill Sam in the past when Sam was skirting the edges of evil and monster.  Sam saying he did what Dean couldn't do didn't really make any sense to me because Dean might still have killed her. If anything they should have compared her to Madison whom Sam did love but then they would have to remember canon...

 

I don't think Sam and Emma are that comparable here though. Dean has known Sam all Sam's life. Emma was a monster that he barely knew and in the time he did know her she lied to and manipulated him, because she had no intention of leaving with him at all. Her intention was always to kill him. She made that clear at the end.

 

As for Dean killing her, maybe, but I can see why Sam was questioning Dean's judgement and ability to do so at the time also. Sam knew what the Amazons were capable of, since one had attacked him and he'd fought with her (and so knew how strong Emma potentially was), and that Dean let Emma in to begin with - when Sam told him specifically not to do that while he was gone - put into question Dean's judgement here, in my opinion, in that maybe he was too close to this to kill her before he got hurt. With Madison, there was no immediate threat that Madison was going to kill Sam, so Sam could take his time to deal with it and work himself up to doing it. Dean didn't have that luxury, because Emma was immediately dangerous and threatening Dean's life.

 

I don't fault Sam for seeing Dean in danger and acting, and as he told Dean in the car, Dean was scaring him. He didn't want Dean to die.

 

The only point that I get about this is the sentiment that they do the hard things for each other when the other isn't able because he is too close (Dean's daughter, Sam's childhood friend).

 

I think in that sense, it's comparable. Other than that, not so much.

 

That's how I saw it, too, and I think that was what Sam was trying to say.

 

I still am confused how the child was conceived if Dean used protection, though. And I never understood the Amazon's choice of "successful" men to add to their gene pool. But whatever.

I was confused also, because I'm not even sure that the males they choose actually add much DNA to the equation - and does DNA even play a role in their success? The scientist guy was sure when he said that the DNA wasn't human... not as in it was part human, but that it wasn't human, I'm assuming, at all. There is a kind of  reproduction in some animals where a female needs to have sex in order for her to "turn on" the process - as in the sperm stimulates the reproductive process chemically - but it doesn't actually add any DNA to the equation. Since the Amazons only seem to have daughters - which shouldn't happen if things were happening normally - I'm guessing either all or a vast majority of the gene pool is theirs.

 

That doesn't mean that Dean wouldn't necessarily feel that Emma was his, but that again just means that it would likely be harder for him to kill her even than he thought Amy would be for Sam. And that there was the potential that his judgement might be affected - as it was when Dean let her in even though he should've known that it would be dangerous.

 

As for the episode - not a favorite of mine. I would say that the end was my favorite part, but even that was left somewhat unresolved as Sam and Dean were talking past each other in this one. Sam couldn't see past his fear and frustration and Dean couldn't see past his depression. There was one fleeting moment of pure Dean: "Yeah, news flash, pal – you're just as screwed up as I am! You're just... bigger." but unfortunately the writer didn't let it break the ice and capitalize on it. Kind of disappointing, since apparently they worked things out offscreen - which I dislike - since they were fine in the next episode. Missed opportunity there.

[SueB]

I've been exceptionally busy lately -- barely time to vote in the Survivor game! -- but I've been meaning to comment on this episode.

 

I completely believe Emma is Dean's biological daughter.  Dean said "Actual she was, really. She just also happened to be a man-killing monster."  What sold me was how they gave her some Dean qualities.  Her 'yeah, but you could have done that 30 secs ago" is a DIRECT repeat from what Dean said to the waitress-demon in Lazarus Rising.  I also believe Dean was going to let her walk if she put away the weapon.  Family is everything to Dean and she was already getting under his skin IMO with her two minutes of conversation. 

 

What I don't buy is the equivalency of Amy Pond and Emma Winchester ... there...I gave her the Winchester name.  Yes she saved Sam's life and was Sam's first kiss.  But Emma was Dean's monster-spawn.  I wasn't happy that they had Sam kill her. It almost felt petty.  I know it wasn't.  I BELIEVE Sam is truly worried about Dean. Further Sam just fought an Amazon, saw Emma's monster-face (Dean did not).  But bringing up Amy kinda cheapened the issue for me. 

 

This is one of those plot-lines that is gone forever I believe.  But I think they should have played it up a bit more.  As I mentioned elsewhere, I think Dean was much more circumspect in his hook-ups after Emma.  It was briefly mentioned in the next episode but I wish it had been an specific plot point. 

 

As for the episode itself:

- I agree with others the episode was far from a standout.  The intermix of sex and violence was a concept that they just didn't quite pull off IMO. 

- I loved seeing the Mayor from Buffy (my favorite Buffy villain, Glory is second).  I liked his quirkiness and would like to see him back.

- The plot was just ...okay.  The dialog just ..okay.  It could have been better. It wasn't bad though.  So, I'm not sure where they went wrong.

 

But for me, this episode is always the one that missed an opportunity to make Emma's plot more than it was in terms of how it affected Dean.  And the truth is, I kinda wish Emma had lived. 

[catrox14]

Emma Winchester is a beautiful name. Of course, now I'm thinking what other spawn  does Dean maybe have floating around out there that he doesn't know about. 

[DittyDotDot]

So, yeah, it's not a very good one. But I have to admit, Sam heckling Dean first about him calling Lydia and then about his paranoia about possibly being a monster-baby-daddy is rather amusing. "Are you deliberately messing with me." Yes, Dean, he most definitely is messing with you and very deliberately too!  And Dean remembering the night and then remembering what it also spawned after Sam asked him if he was "careful" is some good reactionary work from Jensen.

 

Still confused about the genetics of it, but really I don't care all that much about it either. It's a sure sign the episode isn't that good when I start obsessing over these trivial details of the "lore." They are urban legends for a reason after all.

 

The idea that Bobby could be haunting them was some nice continuity, though.

Too bad he actually was haunting them...I always thought it would've been better if Dean just thought Bobby was haunting him rather than it actually happening, but that's probably best left for a later thread.

 

As to the Emma/Amy debate: I don't think Sam brings up Amy to say "you killed my friend, so I killed your daughter." He was worried and concerned about Dean and used the situation as an example of something he learned from Dean. His main argument was "don't get killed"--I never thought the show was trying to equate the two situations other than saying they each help the other with difficult things when needed.

 

 

ETA: Forgot to mention that it's now over two years later and I think the Amazons are know to cycle every two years...just saying.

Edited December 28, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

The DNA thing reminds me of the Percy Jackson series.  The hero and his friends are demigods, growing up together and training at Camp Half-Blood.  (Or, for the Roman demigods, Camp Jupiter.)  A lot of the demigods date each other, which is creepy until a character explains that they aren't actually related.  Their godly parents have no DNA, so a child of Poseidon can date a child of Athena, for example, because they don't share DNA.

 

Moreover, Athena is one of the maiden goddesses, so her children are conceived through a meeting of minds instead of other body parts.  ;-)

 

So maybe this episode took those ideas and kind of flipped them around.  Emma was conceived through the sex act, but didn't actually receive any DNA from her father.

[DittyDotDot]

That's the idea I go with. I've always taken Bobby's stance--family doesn't end with blood--so it kinda makes me question what exactly Dean is attached to about Emma, though. I totally got why he might think of Ben as his kid--even though he wasn't his blood--but he didn't even know Emma and she was trying to kill him. I don't know, like I said, if the episode was better I probably wouldn't have even blinked an eye at it. And, to be honest, it doesn't really bother me in the grand scheme of things.

[catrox14]

I think it was intended as fact that Emma was of Dean's DNA.  Otherwise the entire point of Sam killing her becomes much less meaningful IMO and Dean's angsting about his own child being a monster is meaningless.

 

Dean wondered if Ben was his biological child but the show took pains to tell us repeatedly he was not. Dean tried to be a good parent to Ben regardless of DNA. I don't think that means that Dean might not have some kind of internal DadDar that pinged on Emma being flesh and blood. I wouldn't know because I'm not a parent myself but I could see where that might be a thing.

Edited December 28, 2014 by catrox14

[rue721]

Maybe a part of Dean thought it would be poetic justice for Emma to kill him. He helped bring this monster into the world, so she should be the one to take him out of it. At that time, he wasn't the happiest camper, so I don't think that suicide-by-monster was entirely out of the question for him.

 

I don't think that it matters whether Emma was technically blood-related to Dean or not, since it *was* her mother having sex with Dean that resulted in Emma's birth. Given who he is as a character, I would expect Dean to feel some sense of responsibility toward her because of that. Especially since his personal mantra apparently is that his work is justified because he helps more people than he hurts -- Emma's existence sort of flies in the face of that. He wasn't saving anyone that night, but he was creating a monster. If he were in a different headspace I think he probably would have been especially quick to kill her because of that sense of responsibility, but given how he was feeling at the time...

 

What kind of cracked me up about this episode is how lame Dean's pickup story was at the bar. He was an investment banker? In some random town, wearing his same old "FBI" suit? What I found funny about that is that you'd think that those kinds of lines would only work on someone if they were born yesterday -- but Lydia really was born yesterday (or possibly the day before?), so of course they'd work on her. I didn't think it was strange that she'd want to pick up a guy who was as attractive as possible, and that she'd flirt, etc, beforehand. She was going to have sex with the guy, so you'd think she'd care about that stuff regardless of his blood tie (or lack of one) to the baby. I don't have any children and have no plans for any, but that doesn't mean my bed is open to any old doofus, either!

 

Ben, imo, is a whole different story from Emma. Dean and Ben were tied by love, not blood -- imo it didn't matter whether they were technically father/son, that was obviously their relationship regardless, and Ben even said so pretty explicitly a few times (and Dean said as much to soulless!Sam, too). Ultimately, Dean made the choice to protect Ben from the supernatural and to put Ben's safety and happiness first, by making him forget that Dean existed -- imo that was a choice (and a sacrifice) made out of love, and was really proof that he loved Ben as his child. He also encouraged Krissy's father to protect her by keeping her from being a hunter, and he's complained before that John didn't make that choice to protect his sons from the supernatural and hunting, too. He seems like he's come to feel that parents have a moral imperative to keep their children away from that life, or at least not to raise them in it (which makes me curious about how he'd feel about Ellen and Jo's relationship now, but I digress). With Emma, there was no way to protect her from the supernatural, since she *was* the supernatural -- so there was no dilemma. She was a monster, so she *belonged* in the world of monsters/hunting. So, as disturbing as it is, she's the only kind of child that could belong in Dean's (hunting) life. I think that if anything drew Dean toward Emma in a paternal way, it was that.

Edited December 29, 2014 by rue721

[Goldmoon]

Was Really Stoked to see the mayor. With all the hesitation that Emma showed during the other trials with the other girls, I thought they were really setting this up for Emma to be genuinely different from her sisters.  This ep was barely there for me, as it was. 

[GirlyGeek]

another episode I didn't remember happening. I'm starting to think I was half asleep during season 7...

Anyway, I had just watched an ep of vampire diaries before re watching this, so color me surprised to see Jenna! And then the mayor from Buffy! I love seeing all the guest actors and geeking out.

Nothing special about this ep to me. Interesting MOTW, but nothing I'd want to re watch.

I don't tend to take things too literally, so I didn't see Sam mentioning Amy as a dig or anything toward Dean. i also just don't see the big deal here... It's not like this monster was Deans 'family', and even patronage seems to be debatable. He knew her for 5 seconds and of those 5 seconds she spent all 5 planning to kill him. That ain't family, that ain't a daughter, and it certainly doesn't make her a Winchester.

Dean hesitated, he let the monster start monologuing, and Sam knew it, saw it, and the monster girl showed her real face to Sam (while begging Dean to protect her in her 'I'm your daughter, save me' face'). Sam saw the manipulation and did what needed to be done. Whether Dean would have gotten there eventually, too, is a moot point. It was also merciful for Sam to take that choice out of a Deans hands.

Seems reasonable to me.

[AwesomO4000]

The DNA thing reminds me of the Percy Jackson series.  The hero and his friends are demigods, growing up together and training at Camp Half-Blood.  (Or, for the Roman demigods, Camp Jupiter.)  A lot of the demigods date each other, which is creepy until a character explains that they aren't actually related.  Their godly parents have no DNA, so a child of Poseidon can date a child of Athena, for example, because they don't share DNA.

 

Moreover, Athena is one of the maiden goddesses, so her children are conceived through a meeting of minds instead of other body parts.  ;-)

 

So maybe this episode took those ideas and kind of flipped them around.  Emma was conceived through the sex act, but didn't actually receive any DNA from her father.

 

I somehow missed this earlier (the annual holiday trip probably explains it), and just wanted to say that I agree. I started wondering about something like this when the Medical Examiner said that the DNA from the crime scene was not human... In nature there is a type of reproduction where a sperm is needed to "wake up" the egg or start some kind of chemical process / make the egg start turning into a baby critter, but the actual progeny are exact clones of the mother only. So the sperm starts the process, but doesn't contribute genetically to the progeny. And the fact that all amazons in this verse are female, mimics this as well.

 

But that is interesting about the Greek and Roman gods in the Percy Jackson verse. I t would kinda fit for the amazons in this verse also since they have a similar origin in the Greek myths (if I'm remembering correctly) and have supernatural powers.

 

And I agree with you on your assessment, GirlyGeek.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 12/27/2014 at 9:40 PM, DittyDotDot said:

ETA: Forgot to mention that it's now over two years later and I think the Amazons are know to cycle every two years...just saying.

Yeah, so they just completely dropped the every two years plot thing, huh?  Would have been interesting to revisit.  I just like continuity that way.

I wasn't over concerned with the DNA during this ep.  I just bought that Emma was Dean's.  Don't really care how.  I was disappointed she turned out like all the other monsters.  I was hoping she'd be the exception.  I thought that could be cool.  And something they could revisit in the future.

With the Amy Pond flashback in the THEN sequence, and Sam killing Emma, it was a bit of an anvil on the head.  I guess they're even now, is what the show was saying.

I noticed Sam was driving a lot in this episode.  I mean the car.  Maybe the plot too, but the car definitely.  So was that a metaphor or just because it wasn't Baby so Dean didn't really care or want to drive?

[Dobian]

I recognized their car as a Buick Riviera right off.

How Sam and Dean dealt with the Amazons was rather boring compared to how they deal with other threats.  Just whip out their guns and shoot.

Comparing Amy to Emma, well, Sam had an actual bond with Amy over shared experiences, so you can see why he would be compromised over killing her.  There was no bond between Dean and Emma aside from a biological one.  He only knew of her existence for less than a day and then met her for a couple of minutes before showdown time.  If a full-grown girl walked up to me and said she was my daughter from a rendezvous the night before, I would be more freaked out in an Aliens/Exorcist kind of way than all, "My baby!".

[mertensia]

I imagine the Amazons probably left the U.S. after this episode; they know hunters survived and are on to them.

[Hanahope]

I thought the story telling a bit off in this episode. First we see/hear of 2-3 other guys get killed, presumably by their amazon daughters.  Then we see Dean hook up with Lydia, who appears all raring to go, but then acts so unsure the next morning.  She continues to act unsure around Dean when he stops by for the flask and later when she gives Emma to the leader.

 

next we see Emma undergoing trials with other girls her age and then next thing she's trying to kill Dean.  So which generation killed the first 2-3 guys? Did Lydia kill then spawn in a few days?  Did the other girls kill their daddies while young children? 

 

Just seemed like like the timeline was a bit off.  And of course they make you think Emma might be different and of course she's not, so Sam can do the 'hard kill' for Dean.

And did I miss the symbolism of cutting off the hands and feet?

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

next we see Emma undergoing trials with other girls her age and then next thing she's trying to kill Dean.  So which generation killed the first 2-3 guys? Did Lydia kill then spawn in a few days?  Did the other girls kill their daddies while young children?

It only took Emma a couple days to age to a teenager, so I think the men who died earlier were killed by their daughters who were conceived before Sam and Dean even got to town. The girls we saw with Emma would be a different "batch" of girls...I think. It could even be that the women had multiple children within that time frame?

35 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

And did I miss the symbolism of cutting off the hands and feet?

I believe that's what they were feeding the girls as "tribute".

[bettername2come]

Sam's driving. How many times have we seen Sam driving after season 1? Shirtless Dean! It's nice to see the boys using a college professor to get info like they did back in season one. Dean apologized to baby Emma for getting interrupted with a phone call. That's cute. Oh, great detective Amazon is one of the three people capable of recognizing them from the Most Wanted list. "All right, I'll sweeten the deal - we'll remove your wire tap." Some of the bullshit the guys get away with as FBI agents is great. Great casting for between Emma and the mother. They really look like they could be mother and daughter. "A crazy, drunk, old genius." "They always have the good stuff." Emma definitely was manipulating Dean at the end, but she and her mother seemed to not be completely onboard the Amazon train. "You're just as screwed up as I am. You're just bigger." Dean's never gotten over his little brother outgrowing him.

On 3/4/2015 at 1:17 PM, Goldmoon said:

Was Really Stoked to see the mayor. 

Thank you! I recognized him, but didn't know from where. They're really racking up the Buffy alumni this season. 

[Katy M]

I hate this episode but I love that crazy professor. 

[CluelessDrifter]

16 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Great casting for between Emma and the mother. They really look like they could be mother and daughter.

The girl who played Emma is the same girl who played Missy Bender in The Benders, isn't she?   

Edited July 31, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[bettername2come]

28 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

The girl who played Emma is the same girl who played Missy Bender in The Benders, isn't she?   

Yes, she is.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, CluelessDrifter said:

The girl who played Emma is the same girl who played Missy Bender in The Benders, isn't she?   

Yes, it is. I remember Jensen commenting at a con not long after the episode aired that he didn't recognize her right away, but once he did he asked her why she keeps coming on the show and trying to kill him. ;)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Not a particular favorite of mine.  A little slow, to be honest.  

• I just noticed that the first two victims were married.  Huh.
• I like it when Sam drives.  Too bad he doesn't much anymore.  
• I like Eddie the coroner.  He's fun.
• I like seeing Sam tease Dean - even though it mostly didn't go over very well.  Most of the time, it's Dean teasing Sam about girls.  I like seeing that turned around now and again.  
• I'm rather disappointed that the Amazons were killed so easily - just by a regular old bullet - after the show so pointedly saying their DNA wasn't human.  

[Iju]

hate that yet again there's another needless blood tie to the winchesters. just all kinds of no. don't do it ever again, it's just wrong.

On 7/31/2017 at 3:50 PM, CluelessDrifter said:

The girl who played Emma is the same girl who played Missy Bender in The Benders, isn't she?   

woah, (1 how did you know! and (2 i just watched the bender's episode a few days ago. it's my favourite episode of the entire series, and it's mainly because it featured no monsters :) :)

[The Companion]

Ugh. Another one off that seems poorly thought out. It feels like there was this interesting thread about who should die and what the brothers' internal code should be that got pushed to the side and made an F plot and never really developed to something coherent. Everytime they address Amy, it feels like someone is trying to write a story after overhearing an outline in a bar.

It was hard to care about Emma, who was the barest sketch of a person maybe genetically related to a main character. It was hard to care about the Amazons who were basically a cult with super strength and mild cannibalism. 

I did like some of the back and forth between the brothers, but I suspect this one doesn't stick with me long.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, The Companion said:

It was hard to care about Emma,

Were we supposed to?  She was literally two days old, or close to, and she showed up to kill Dean, Sam killed her instead, and I can't be bothered to care. And I don't think can really, either.  Nor should he.

[gonzosgirrl]

Dean said all I need to say about this.
 

Quote

SAM:
Look, man, she was not yours. Not really.

DEAN:
Actually, she, uh, she was, really. She just also happened to be a crazy man-killing monster. But, uh, hey.

If they didn't want it to seem like Sam took smug satisfaction in killing Emma, like Dean killed Amy, somebody should've told Jared.

[The Companion]

17 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Were we supposed to?  She was literally two days old, or close to, and she showed up to kill Dean, Sam killed her instead, and I can't be bothered to care. And I don't think can really, either.  Nor should he.

I am not sure what we were supposed to feel, but apathetic is what they achieved over here too. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If they didn't want it to seem like Sam took smug satisfaction in killing Emma, like Dean killed Amy, somebody should've told Jared.

I didn't see any smug satisfaction myself. I saw a Sam who was worried that Dean wasn't following his own advice and therefore opening himself up to being killed because of it.

And Sam was actually right, in my opinion. If the Amazons didn't have human DNA, unless Dean isn't human, she literally wasn't Dean's. Dean may have felt like she was, but Sam didn't see it that way based on the fact that she was a monster and he'd heard the doctor say she had no human DNA.

But I'll leave it at that, so as not to veer into unnecessary territory.

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If they didn't want it to seem like Sam took smug satisfaction in killing Emma, like Dean killed Amy, somebody should've told Jared.

Co-sign this.